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Considering specifying bamboo flooring for a client. Anyone have any positive or negative comments from your experience?
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You shouldn't consider specifying any product to any client unless you are familiar with it's qualities.
BTW nothing worth discussing when it comes to bamboo flooring. It has no qualities that sets it apart or above regular wood flooring. It's dull without applied artificial finishes and lacks the warmth of wood.
Just grass and glue.
Gabe
*i was posting here to solicit information before I did specify the material. This is why i asked. its called doing my research before i specify.thanks anyway
*Asking us is doing research? LOLHope you're more sincere than that and have more to offer your clients than this first impression.Gabe
*I'm not a flooring expert, but as a consumer, I find the fact that bamboo flooring IS just 'grass and glue' to be a favorable feature. If I'm purchasing new flooring, I'd much rather cut down some grass than trees.As far as it being dull and lacking warmth, I would guess that that would be a more subjective, personal opinion.From what I've read, the benefits seem to be that it is more stable than wood (being that it is a laminate) and it more durable (harder) than a lot of wood used for flooring.I'd love to learn more about bamboo flooring form those that have used it.
*thanks Darrell for your positive comments. if i receive any meaningful information from experiences i shall pass them on to you.
*Well now that's interesting.We plant and harvest trees, but that's considered wasteful. Have you considered the offgassing from this glue and grass by the way? (depending on the manufacturer of course) Did you know that formaldyhide sic is used by many of the world's manufacturers of bamboo flooring?Yes it's dull to look at and it does lack the warmth of wood. It is a cold product. Gabe
*mr. martel, would you care to share the manufacturers names who use the formaldehyde, please. that would be helpful.
*Gabe:I just said that I, personally, would prefer to cut down grass than trees for flooring. I'm a big fan of wood, and I certainly understand and respect sustainable tree harvesting. I did not know about the formaldyhide issue...thanks for bringing it up...certainly a drawback and something to check out before purchasing.'warmth' is often a subjective opinion, though I understand your point....and I don't think you were necessarily being negative in saying it, just merely pointing it out.As for it being dull, wouldn't that be more of a finishing issue rather than a raw material issue?
*No the warmth comment refers to the fact that the flooring is made up of glue with grass strips and glue is a cold product. It has little thermal qualities.Dull has to do with the product's initial appearance. Wood has a stand alone beauty. Some people like oak for it's grain and strenght. Some people like birdseye maple for it's distinctive look. My point is without any staining or modification a wood floor can stand on it's own merits when it comes to final curb appeal. Bamboo requires the addition of stains and patterns to give it real appeal.It's like the arguments between real wood flooring vs pergo's arborite version of wood. It may look like wood but it's cold.Gabe
*Alan, Bamboo flooring is very popular in So. Cal. It is a vertical laminate, due to the thickness of the raw material. Therefore it acts like a solid wood floor with all of the movement issues of solid. I personally stay away from any material that requires glue to hold it together. Laminates de-laminate. I have heard it has shrinking problems. It should be full spread glued and nailed with Bostick's Best Urethane Adhesive to try to resolve those issues. Other than that, the consumer loves the heck out of it. GW
*Hate to take away from your research. Start your hunt in China and work around the rim and let me know how you make out.Gabe
*thanks for the info, much appreciated, Greg.
*It's popular there because someone spread a rumor that you could smoke it with only a light buzz.Gabe
*Mr. Martel. from the nature of your responses, I must say that this shall end my discussion here. I thought that I asked a simple question. I do not know what you thought nor do I care. I was simply looking for cold hard facts based upon someones experience. I cant really understand what i said that put you in to this mode of sarcasm? I really cant. are you a Nazi?
*Alan, Welcome to Gabe's corner of the world! What?
*You asked for comments, both positive and NEGATIVE. If you only wanted ass kissing then you should have said so and I would have left it alone.With regards to your last stupid comment let me say this....My father's only brother and my mother's only brother were both killed during the second world war fighting against corporal hitler so I would thank you very much to stick your little nazi comment where the sun don't shine.....shmuck..Gabe
*Alan, Welcome to Gabe's corner of the world! What?
*Don't think that was worth repeating...besides I never inhaled you SOBGabe
*You know Gabe, it's kind of funny, but I think someone at the Taunton Press or their webmaster is tinkering with the servers. I did not post that message twice, I lost multiple posts off of my current thread today, and Monday the site was moving at 1/2K at best. So, with all due respect, mellow out.
*I'm already at my mellow best, if I were pissed I'd be better.Got 5 guys trying to lay a slate floor in front of the only working elevator in a 10 storey used by 120 pissed off tradesmen tomorrow morning.....so I should be great tomorrow nite.Gabe
*AlanI put 600 sq ft of bamboo flooring last summer in my home and am pleased with it. The manufacturer is Amati from Ontario. You will find that many bamboo floor manufacturers are concerned about the environmental impact of their products. They tend to cater to a greener crowd than (some) of those on this list..Anyway, the manufacturer we chose does not use any formaldehydes in their product. It is cut from 3 year old bamboo. Bamboo takes three years to mature. If it's cut too soon bamboo will die. 3 year rotation is sustainable. The product we used is vertically sawn. It's far from boring to look at. I can see the ribboning of the grain (similar to ribbon oak) and the rings that occur every foot os so up the stalk. It is very hard (rockwell harder than oak) and wears well. I dulled out a carbide blade on my chop saw cutting it. It came pre-finished and tongue and grooved on all four sides. We chose to install it as a floating floor, though it is equally suitable in a nail down application. I have installed lots of Kahrs floating floors in homes I've built. The fit and finish wasn't quite as good as what I've come to expect from Kahrs, although it was at least as good as most pre-finished nail down floors. The company shipped us about 20% extra- I assume so that we could cull through any with defects in the wood or finish (of which there were a few). I bought floating floor accessories from a big box store- edge glue and foam padding, and T strips. cost was $4.50 p.s.f. including shipping. Feel free to E mail me with additional questions.
*Alan- I tried replying to your e mail but it bounced. Seems as though your spam-o-meter is turned up too high. Anyway, our limited experience with the Amati Bamboo floor's durability has been good. we've only had it in 9 months, so it's got a long way to go, but so far it's behaving at least as well as any nail down floor I've installed.Best,Chris
*Chris:Good information and some that I hadn't realized. I've seen a good amount of bamboo flooring, and as Greg says people love the stuff. Especially those darned decorators...they'll try anything unusual.Actually the stuff is a tad bit softer than common red oak and the only reference I've seen is on the plyboo.com site I thought for sure I posted to this thread yesterday. Must be the glitches?From my understanding, a well researched hardwood salesman I deal with on ocassion, informs me the carbonized stuff is even softer as they bake the stuff longer to achieve the darker color.I wonder how Gabe's day is going...hehe. Get them elevators working!
*I got mine from Wood Floor Imports. Plenty of other suppliers around, including some who advertise in FHB.
*Yep Ken, that's what I get for marrying an interior designer. Everything looks good on paper.. :-)
*Greg,I have heard quite the opposite on the shrinkage and delamination issues. Maybe I've been fed a line, but I've talked to a number of commercial contractors that love the wear factor of bamboo. Some brands or species (hard to tell whether it's species or processing) look great while some are indeed dull. The duller appearance tends to be popular in the commercial spaces because people never look at it long enough to recognise it and the decorators think they have fooled everyone that it's just a very blonde wood.Alan,Two caveats I have. One, I think as bamboo ages and yellows it doesn't mellow as nice as wood. Maybe that's the formaldehyde. Two, even though commercial users like it for durability (and cost) they do tear out and remodel spaces much more often than residential. So no long term proof!Personally, I'm considering it for my own home. I plan to look for the species that terrorised Gabe as a child.
*Well, after a few more days of research Ive come to the following conclusion.With out long term data, I cant in good faith recomend the material. The investment in the floors is not worth the experiment factor at this point.My subs are installing alot of it, and most of all specified by "designers/decorators", not professionals.We have found the "fit" of the tongue/groove is not very tight hence the floors have a bit of waviness. That can be corrected by a traditional drum sand and finish, therefore driving the cost up to a range right in with select grade oak.I do however like the appearance and perhaps with more positive long term experience will consider it in the future.Lastly, for this project, about 1200sf, the installed, sanded and finished cost was the same for select red oak. White oak select, however, came in 25c lower than red oak select, so we went with that because the color was closer to what the client wanted.Lastly, except for Gabe, I thank you all for your comments. It was my first post on this system and was about to chuck it. Think Ill stick around for more.
*Rein:From my experience bamboo doesn't age like other wood flooring, as I've been involved in one water damage repair. This floor was six years old and the new prefinished flooring(same manufacturer) was an identical match to the old, though the finish was a tad different.As far as how the other areas of this floor had held up, I saw some scratches but what appeared to be many indentations from some type of sports shoe. It wasn't from high heels but maybe a hard rubber soccer shoe?Chris, we call 'em desecrators. I'm currently working on a gorgeous exotic hardwood floor and they want to stain the stuff so dark, nearly black. They'd be better off painting it black. Thank goodness they've given up on whitewash floors, but black? Big reversal there.This particular spec house has so many different types of flooring running though it, as it actually makes it clash far too much. I guess the area is 10,000 square feet and the desecrators have marble connecting to some ceramic tiled areas..yuk! Five types of hardwood flooring both prefinished and site finished.I've been on the job two weeks now and there has been a crew of six artists painting all sorts of murals etc all over the place. Some look fabulous and others just run into each other.Upon walking into some rooms one almost needs sunglasses as the colors are too much in my opinion. I've been noticing the pool area and there's a ladder laying on the side that looks like it was pulled from a seaside boat deck. Barnicles all over the bottom. Will they install it on this job??? It will not surprise me.
*You'd be wasting your time. My childhood was a blast.I grew up with a love of life tempered with enough cynism to ensure success and the ability to enjoy it.You should be so lucky.Gabe
*You're welcome, schmuck.Gabe
*gabe martel you are a sour old apple.
*the last and only comment i shall make for you Mr. Martel is that i would enjoy having this conversation with you in person. perhaps then you wouldnt have to advertise your cowardice and anger behind the electronic words.
*Can someone be man enough to let it go and stop with the silly little names? Keep it about flooring, whether you like this kind of T&G or not.We like it, and have chosen bamboo for the bulk of our house, putting our money where our mouth is. No decorators involved. Currently in the process of installing it, so don't have results to report yet. Love the finished examples I've seen except for the carbonized. We like the subtle grain and the nodes. Also like some woods (esp mahogany), so liking bamboo doesn't mean not liking wood (and vica versa). We expect it will be a warm and inviting complement to our plaster and concrete walls. Will know for sure only when done with install. Till then, anyone not wanting to talk about bamboo flooring can head over to the tavern and I'll buy ya what you're drinking.Jim
*AJ Berkowitz....I don't care for your threats or your whiny assed comments.Be careful what you wish for...Gabe
*Jim:Post pictures when you are finished...sounds like a great combination of materials!
*Cloud Hidden"Can someone be man enough to let it go and stop with the silly little names?"The discussion was about flooring and the opinion I was expressing was based on my personal experiences and feelings. It may not be shared by all but it is honest.Kinda like the arguments about Pergo being compared to real wood or ceramics or marble. Some swear by Pergo and some swear at Pergo.Bamboo is cold because of the glue. The thermal resistance of glue is vertually non-existing. The hardness and wearability is also due to the glue. Bamboo, Pergo and vinyl siding are marketed towards and accepted by a large portion of the market place. But will never replace the beauty, feel and texture of natural wood.Most wood species have natural beauty, without stains or paint or printed patterns. You can cover it with paint but you always have to option of exposing it's beauty with a light sanding. Enjoy your bamboo flooring. If there were only one taste for all the world would be borring.Gabe
*Wrong JohnI'm a fine aged wine with enough kick to make it worth sampling.Gabe
*Gabe,I have no issue with your non-preference for one material or another. I don't see how putting a natural material like bamboo in with invented materials like vinyl siding and printed laminates makes for an especially meaningful comparison, but even at that, you're entitled to say so. And I'm not at all bothered by your focus on cold glue while I focus on a warm plant. I'll get as many sandings from what I use as Greg/Ken/et al will from oak before we each hit nail heads, not glue. And if glue gives bamboo a lesser R-factor than Oak (curious as to exact numbers though), that probably works in my favor, as I have RFH--I can use a lower water temp! As for wearability and hardness coming from glue rather than the raw material, I'll either respectfully disagree or offer that we must be looking at it from really different angles. Machs nichts ("It doesn't matter" in my phonetic Pennsylvania Dutch accent.) As for "without stains or paint or printed patterns", I see bamboo having beautiful natural grain and nodes "without stains or paint or printed patterns". I'm just using Waterlox on mine, and there's nothing dull about the result. We can certainly disagree on that without anyone flying off the handle, but I admit I don't know how "printed patterns" fits into a discussion of natural materials.My request on "silly little names" wasn't about anything related to bamboo, but about all the other "schmuck" and "nazi" (especially uncalled for!!!) stuff which can make it such a pain in the ass to exchange information around here. Someone has to be willing to stop first, no matter who started, and I'm just appealing to everyone to be the first to stop. It got old fast.Best wishes,Jim
*>Post pictures when you are finished...sounds like a great combination of materials! Darrel, thanks. The materials work for us; natural, yet modern. I don't know that my photo skills would ever give a fair representation, but a magazine (not FHB) has a photo shoot scheduled for Sept, and if they follow through, I'll mention it.
*Cloud, i've browsed your website and love that you don't even have a box to think outside of! I would really like to see the professional shoot of your place--please be sure to post when it happens. ;^)
*The only sign of success of any product is father time. I have seen many products come on the market in my 23 years in the floor business with all of the fanfare and hype, for instance, the waterbased coatings. Do we need to discuss the fact that it is in its 4th or 5th generation. What happened to all of the consumers and flooring people that were taken in by the over-hyping of those previous generations? They resanded their floors far to soon and let's face it, they didn't go back to water the 2nd time. In 1989, a Florida company came out with a concrete moisture proofer. It was a water based product that one just rolled on with a paint roller. It dried in one hour and one could put your plywood on slab down that day with no 6 mil plastic and Coldbond to mess with. I saw all of the new floor guys get sucked into this one, and within one year there were so many lawsuits filed for the failures of the product, that the company filed for bankruptcy, leaving the flooring contractors holding the bag. My point to all of this is, be aware of the fact that Bamboo has not been around very long. Not long enough to test its lamination process under use. All flooring laminates that I know of can delaminate. I see it routinely on floors 8 years plus. And the consumers always say they wish they had gone with solid wood. 3M came out with a wood looking rubber product in the 80's named Trinata(I can't believe I remember the name). It took 4 or 5 years before it started to come apart and they all did. People jumped all over that product and 3M settled the class action lawsuit. Weren't those people lucky. I don't have any attitude about people falling in love with Bamboo laminate flooring, but who is going to settle your lawsuit if there is a turn for the worse? The Chinese? We know the history of solid wood floors and that is what I will promote. I feel that I have a responsibility to my clientele to spend their money wisely because wood floors, solid or laminate, are a very expensive upgrade. I will leave the laminates to "the believers". GW
*Greg, don't get me wrong. I ain't arguing that bamboo is superior to wood (nor the opposite). I'm not telling others to use it. Even the people here on Breaktime who've used it have been careful to say they haven't been on it long enough to verify durability. But I spent my money on it for my house that I hope to live in for a long, long time. I tend to be an "early adopter" and am comfortable with the risk-benefit tradeoff. I can understand why a businessman and contractor would be more averse to risk. I do a lot of my own work so that I don't have to talk other people into doing stuff that's new or risky to them. Easier to just do it. My place, my money, my risk...my reward if it works.Cheers, JimSG, thanks. My pictures don't do justice compared to being inside one. Hope a pro photog can capture how good it feels here.
*Jim:Stunning house...both inside and out. Looking forward to the magazine article...
*I did a little experiment today- took a piece of bamboo flooring left over from my project and beat it with a hammer (nothing better to do on a cold memorial day weekend..). It didn't break at the glue joints. When it finally did break it split down the middle of a strip of bamboo. Obviously I can't attest to how this material will hold up over time. But we'd all better have some faith in glues used in residential construction- our homes are increasingly held together with them. Subfloor adhesive, OSB, plywood, laminated ply and particle board cabinets, etc etc. To a different point- I think one of the things bamboo has going for it is that it's a renewable resource. Not to say that wood isn't, but the fiber production of a bamboo plant is much greater than a tree. There's a movement to use bamboo structually in buildings as well. If we don't try new things and encourage suppliers to do the right thing by supporting them when they do, we'll all be in a heap of trouble in the not too distant future.
*Breaking things is fun. I also forced destruction of a board--a stair tread. As with yours, the board split along the grain of the bamboo, much like a tight grained wood.Trying new things is also fun. But there's also a difference be/t a homeowner trying something and accepting the risk, and a contractor trying it and risking reputation and profit. The new things I've tried here I've paid T&M with no warranty, or I've done them myself. Not fair to ask a contractor to have the same guarantee and rates on something new that I'm forcing on them. Still, I have a special regard and respect for those contractors I've worked with who've been willing to take the leap of faith and experiment with a new method or new material at my request.
*A general shout out to anyone working with BAMBOO flooring. I thought someone would mention it but since nobody did >> The fine dust that comes off of sanding bamboo is very different than wood dust ... the particulate matter, as I understand it, has "sharp,jagged edges" as looked at under a scope, and can do real damage to the lungs if inhaled. This is due to their being 'cellulose'(?) molecules (as in 'grasses')instead of .... whatever wood is (not grass). The proper and religious use of a quality respirator is absolutely crucial to non-injurious work with the product at the sanding stage. I'm no scientist, but the popularity of bamboo flooring is growing faster than ... than grass ... around here, and I've heard this warning on more than one occassion.For the record, I dont think the stuff can be beat for looks .. for ... coolness. It's just plain BEAUTIFUL in a cooooler, sleaker, tighter way than any wood I think I've ever seen. I love it.Lastly >> where's that website of Cloud Hidden's??? Can't find it anywhere in the thread or at his profile ... what am I missing here? I wanna see the "stunning house, both inside and out" ! ! ! thanks-a
*Aaron, thanks for respirator advice. I hadn't heard that and will ask my supplier about it. In my profile, click "view home page", or if that doesn't work, http://www.cloudhidden.org. Some people said real nice stuff, and that was kind of them, but I know it's not to everyone's taste. Meter reader visited while under construction, walked around, came outside, and in a thick southern mountain accent she said, "Ah wouldn't live in no roooouuund house." All I could say back was, "My wife will be glad to hear you won't be joining us."Cheers, Jim
*Jim,What an INCREDIBLE undertaking! Truly amazing .. from the ground up! And I dont see a huge crew around ... dont tell me the two of you did it all by yourselves? (w the help of your little assistant?).It really is a beautiful project ... congratulations!a
*Thanks, Aaron. No huge crew. What you saw is what there was. Got lucky with some good subs for stuff I wasn't licensed to do. My precious daughter supervised and inspected. A little story about her to get this back to bamboo. We were standing on the main floor slab in front of the windows. She was 2.5 yrs. Bamboo was not yet installed. I was describing how we were going to be moving from the apartment to here. She got a real sad look on her face and two crocodile tears rolled down her face. I asked, "What's the matter, Meili, don't you want to live here?" She bawled, "But there's no FLOOR!"She's wiser than I am--the floor's still not installed!Jim
*My first recollection of bamboo as a flooring is from the late 80's. It has undergone a couple of manufacturing "upgrades" since then, and the quality/uniformity of the product has dramatically been improved.My recollection of it as, in the decorator's lingo, being a "must have" product started maybe 6 or 7 years ago. Demand soared, and pumping up the manufacturing to keep pace with demand resulted in an inferior product...QC took a nose dive.Still, I am intrigued by the product. I think its uniqueness makes it, well...unique, and by virtue of that novelty, attractive to many. I think today's plain bamboo has most of the problems behind it. When I was pounding nails building my own house, bamboo was a finalist when we were looking for a light-colored "wood" flooring for a couple of rooms. For several reasons we ended up pulling a 180 and went with brazilian cherry, which is what we originally planned to install in the remainder of the house.Design-wise, I'd plug it in the "contemporary" category...I don't see much of it in the traditional colonial market.Demand for the product is going to soar over the next decade for myriad reasons.
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Considering specifying bamboo flooring for a client. Anyone have any positive or negative comments from your experience?