I am lookiing for a book that goes into detail on how to frame these, Barrel vaults, groin vaults and chandilier domes.
Are their any out there. I googled for it and the one that pops up most is Grapic and Architechural Standards 10th edition. For a whopping $200. I’d gladly pay it if the info was in it. Anyone know? Or are there better ones out there?
I am starting to gut my chateau and want to frame the ceilings in with some of these. Tim Uhlers posts are full of them, and I would like to add them to my arsenal. No one does them around here. And no better place to practice than my place. LOL
Replies
I looked at the $200.00 book the other night.
Have three groin Vaults to do on a front porch.
I have never done one of these before.
Boss missed it on the bid. I think it will be a time consuming task to say teh least.
Gosh I need to take pics of this villa I am building.
By far the most rewarding house I have ever built, and we arent even roughed in yet.
Friends help you move.
Real friends help you move bodies!
Does the book have good details on these? I don't want to find out the hard way that they don't. I hate $200 lessons. :)
I have framed tons of arches just never ran into one of them on a design yet. I am sure I could mark and cut my way through it, I was just looking for a guide to give some details on them.
Do you have any reference books on this topic?
You posts are a virtual how-to book on this subject.
I am going to frame my addition like the gable barrel vault you posted over to JLC. Looks sweet!
How wide was that barrrel? 8' or maybe wider.
Groin Vault MathJoe Bartok
Stilleto: You don't really need the high tech math. I did the detailed analysis with an eye toward some serious timber frame joinery.
Comparison of a Cruciform Valley and Cross Vault: A vault is a Valley roof.
Ratio and Proportion: Solving Segmented Elliptic Arches: Vault math the easy way.
In fact it's possible to achieve a good joint employing only geometry. These would have been the only methods available to timber framers and carpenters hundreds of years ago.
Geometric Solution of Groin VaultHere's a link to one JLC Forums: Groin Vault Thread ... kind of like a soap opera, it went on for quite some time. And if you search the forum you'll find posts, threads and pictures of vaults/coves/hip tray ceilings by Tim Uhler, kpatrix (John Kirkpatrick) and others.
Joe Bartok
Edited 11/27/2006 9:34 am ET by JoeBartok
Edited 11/27/2006 9:34 am ET by JoeBartok
Edited 11/27/2006 9:35 am ET by JoeBartok
I don't have any books on barrel vaults. Those are the easiest. If you can figure out the radius of the arch or the axis' of the ellipse, they are a cakewalk.
The one I posted at JLC was 137" wide and 12" tall giving me a radius of 16'-9 1/2" We set up the sheathing cut 16" to get 3 rips out of each and stacked them 6 deep. Kyle made the cut as deep as the wormdrive would go then followed that with the Big Foot http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/13480311/207275662.jpg The sheathing was scrap and had swelled quite a bit :-) I can zip the folder that has all my pics and email you the link. I'll upload them using Sendspace. Couple of barrels http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/99841856.jpg http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/99841763.jpg http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/99841775.jpg http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/108749494.jpg http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/131813390.jpg I like to leave a gap between the barrel sections where I know there will be lights. http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/54405177.jpg It makes it easier to lift in for us, and then the electrician has lots of room to put his lights without notching any of the framing. In times past, we've ran a beam across to support the barrel.
Here is the latest barrel: http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/13480311/207243304.jpg
http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/54405179.jpg http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/54405189.jpg that one was elliptical and very heavy, but we got it in :-) http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/54405195.jpg
For the curved hip tray ceiling I did last week http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/13480311/205495668.jpg I framed it the way I did in the article from last year, but I put a 4" rise to the curve in the commons. The corner curves were elliptical. I cheated and printed the article I wrote on barrel celings because Joe Fusco helped me when I goofed up the first time I did one of those ceilings. Since this ceiling is basically just a regular roof with common rafters all the same length and slope the corner curves are really easy.
For groin vaults, go through the long thread at JLC. Joe Bartok has got some calculators that simplify the curve "cipherin" I did a groin vault last spring after plowing through his thread http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/9368298/136486499.jpg Kyle and I framed and installed it in 4 hours. That was the first groin I've done (haven't gotten to do one since) and it took a bit of time for the layout. The area was about 6'x7' so on side was an arch, the other elliptical and the intersecting curves were elliptical. http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/9368298/205583406.jpg We built it upside down in the room to keep it square and then it was really easy to get the miter and bevels for the purlins. We just did one side then I cut 4 of each and it flew.
Cove ceilings are just a variation on the above and not difficult http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/99841869.jpg http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/99841805.jpg http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/108749482.jpg http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/131813388.jpg
Sorry for posting all the pics, but I like to look back and see how things have evolved for us. This ceiling is the newest iteration http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/13480311/205495659.jpg and we skip sheathed it so the drywaller would have a lot more backing http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/13480311/207243292.jpg This ceiling is our standard hip tray http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/131813453.jpg but I cut the curve into the ceiling. It took me about 45 minutes longer to cut the rafters because of the curve, but that is the first time.
Normally this ceiling takes about 2-3 man hours to frame, so add 1 hour. I just ordered this blade http://arcusblade.com/arcus_order.html which should greatly speed up the cutting. I made 3 passes on each rafter with a small Skil 5 1/2" saw. Then I took the extra 4 rafters and cut bevels in the middle so I could get the small jacks on the end.
If you want, shoot me an email and I'll send you all the pics I have and post over at JLC in the Rough Framing forum because it's easier to post there for me, I can embed the links and end up with less clutter. Also, there are a lot of guys over there who have good advice on this kind of stuff. They taught me everything I know.
Terrific stuff Tim...can I come work for you?
don't apologize for posting all the pics - it's great to see. ( although some showed up very dark)
Thanks for the links and the pictures. Great work you have done there. The barrels I get no problem, but the groins are the ones I have to scratch my head over.
Getting all three arches to line up nicely kind of confuses me. I think I understand how to do it. I just was looking for a book to read up on the subject.
Getting all three arches to line up nicely kind of confuses me. I think I understand how to do it. I just was looking for a book to read up on the subject.
The the curves make "valleys" or an inside corner they are easier to line up, but on a groin for instance it is a little more difficult because you are planing with the edge or the intersecting curve, not the center. Part of the reason we skip sheathed that one ceiling was then we could make everything dive into those corners really nice for the drywaller and taper.
On the groin I posted the pic of, I had to cut on that intersecting curve a tiny bit. That is part of the reason I preferred building it on the ground. I had all the curves there and ran a straight edge across from both sides until it was really close.
The reason it's not perfect is because like any hip, it would either have to be backed or "dropped". This isn't so easy and I can't recall if it is in Joe's webpages or not. I have George Collings book http://www.amazon.com/Circular-Carpentry-Joinery-George-Collings/dp/0941936481/sr=1-1/qid=1164674064/ref=sr_1_1/002-1459966-0125638?ie=UTF8&s=books and he shows how to do it using a spokeshave (although I may have that spelled incorrectly).
Post any of your questions in the groin thread at JLC and you'll get some good responses. John Kirkpatrick has a lot of good pictures and experience on this.
About the domes, they aren't difficult either. Do you have Will Holladay's book? If you don't, buy it. I haven't gotten to do one yet, but the principles are there in the book. John has some cool pics of a dome that he sent me. Hopefully he'll chime in on this thread or I'll post them. They are way cool looking.
Edited 11/27/2006 7:38 pm ET by Timuhler
Wonderfull pics showing truely professinal carpenters and their skills. Quite refreshing to see in a world of boxes with windows! Thanks
Thanks for the comments. This stuff is really pretty easy too, just don't tell anyone :-)
I got the Arcus blade today. Haven't used it, but here are the pics
http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/209236127.jpg
http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/209236129.jpg
http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/209236132.jpg
http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/209236138.jpg
thanks for those shot..much better than their web site shots....
don't forget about the 4 hour "test new tool" when you get home rule....let us know how it performs.
Do those blades have a knock out for a worm drive? I didn't see one maybe I missed it.
BTW I picked up the Rigid wormdrive in Tennessee last week, sweet saw. Thanks for the field reports on it.
My Uncle a 60 yr old retired carpenter wants to steal it from me now. His comment "that is the nicest saw I have ever put my hands on."
hey...is that what those diamond shaped knocks outs are for...I was actually going to post and ask about that.
Yes they are. I don't think that there is any other use for them. Maybe I am wrong though.
It doesn't have a diamond knockout. I didn't realize that until a couple of days ago. I think the Skil part will work to convert from diamond arbor to the circle. I'll try mounting the blade tomorrow if I can and see if it works.
Glad you like the Ridgid. I've had mine now for a year and a half and its in good shape.
Let me know about the blade, I would like to buy one. I have a few arch jobs coming up and it would be a nice thing to have. I usually use a router, but that can be slow.
I was wondering about the durability of the Rigid saw, thats good to know you have had yours that long and it's still making dust. "Getting old ain't for the weak." Uncle Chet
I sent my saw in to have warranty repairs last winter. None of it was a big deal, but I figured I might as well do it. Right now the only thing wrong with the saw is that it is difficult to adjust the depth. That is because the newest guy on the crew was using my saw without asking. I'm still bugged about that. In one afternoon he aged the saw by more than I would have liked. Also, at 1 degree the table is perfectly square.
Out of all the saws we tested, this saw was the most comfortable to use. We used the DeWalt and the Bosch and neither had held up as well as the Ridgid after one year. I think you'll like the saw for a long time.
I'll have to agree with everyone else - the vaults are pretty easy to do. But they do look so sweet when completed.I think I may even have gotten into the JLC discussion about groins a couple years back. I posted some images of the "mc escher" house I worked on. I ended up doing 8 or 9 small groins and 2 pretty large ones.The largest one I did took me approximately 8 hours to do the ceiling and some other misc framing in the room. It was an 18 x 20 room with extruded corners.Of course, I never took the time to perfectly miter-cut all the joists. As terrible as it sounds, the framing "ain't what people look at." It's the finished product that counts. I know I'll get a ton of backlash for this, but as long as the joists plane out, won't twist, and are otherwise sound and solid, it just simply does not matter if the joist cuts are perfect. They only have to hold rock and plaster.Basically, if you know the spring height and half the length of the diagonal, you should be able to frame any groin. Draw it out in sticks with a pencil and use a trammel to make your ellipses.Now - what I have been mulling over for the last couple of years, is a timber framed groin pergola where every joint would be seen and would have to be perfect. I have some initial drawings done but haven't taken the next step yet. maybe next summer ;-)
A timber framed vault with high tech joinery sounds like fun. Post some pics when you are done.
It would be interesting to know what kinds of jigs, layout methods and tools the timber framers and stone masons of the middle ages used. I found images of sexpartite vaults while Googling. These vaults must have been popular. In a regular hexagon the Valley ellipse runs would be twice the length of the barrel run.
Joe Bartok
Edited 12/11/2006 10:24 am ET by JoeBartok
I have a 'thing' for complex framing.I used your "sexpartite" search term in google and now I think my whole night will be spent downloading images and info on the vaults I've found online.mmmm.I was talking to a GC the other day who said he did a vaulted groin where the perpendicular barrel was significantly smaller in height and width than the main barrel.All of the ones I've done so far had the same height for the spring even if the actual room was rectangular instead of square. It took me an hour or so with SketchUp and a pad and pencil until I was able to figure out how to construct one. Now I just need to convince someone they need one so I can actually build it!
Twofingers wrote: "I was talking to a GC the other day who said he did a vaulted groin where the perpendicular barrel was significantly smaller in height and width than the main barrel."
Was he talking about Intersecting Barrels of Unequal Height, offset axes or dissimilar profiles? Questions like this have cropped up in forums in the last couple of years so I made an effort to tackle the math.
The formulas are for the runs; I didn't bother with formal equations for the Valleys. This is a situation where the math weighs more than it's worth. Conic sections may be laid out using geometry but for intersections such as these all we can do is plot the points and draw a fair curve through them. The points can be plotted by working from the plan and elevations veiws so why bother with long complicated formulas? (The runs for two intersecting elliptic barrels with the axes at the same level are tractable; the run follows an hyperbola. When the barrel heights are equal the Valley run follows the asymptotes and we have our standard groin vault).
The initial solution for this intersection followed a curve along the surface of the barrel with the greater radius: Arch intersects Cove. However the intersection may also be a "true" Valley, where the Valley beam is plumb. The run of such a Valley will follow a curve in plan. The miter and bevel angles of intersectiong jack rafters or purlins conform to the standard equations for their linear cousins.
Curved Purlins intersect Curved Valley
Curved Jack Rafters intersect Curved Valley
This is fascinating stuff. I would love to hear more from other who have tackled framing curved intersections.
Joe Bartok
Edited 12/12/2006 9:01 am ET by JoeBartok
Edited 12/12/2006 9:02 am ET by JoeBartok
Stilletto...any half decent framer can do a barrel vault. use plywood to fabricate radius beams then install 2x4 ceiling joists inbetween.
I'll see if I can dig up some pics of domes that I got to work on few years back.
looks like Tims your man, appears like he's done a ton of stuff...I have to check out his pics.
also I see that JoeBartok has showed up... he has some great info relating to curves. the groin vault isn't that different from the curves we are talking about in my thread "compound radius".
Edited 11/27/2006 12:12 pm ET by alrightythen
here some domes I worked on few years back.....they're really not that difficult a job for an experienced framer. I think the groin vaults get a little trickier with the intersecting radii.
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Thanks for the pictures. I have done barrels before, those are easy- but the groins and the chandalier domes kind of have me confused. I just haven't done one before.
I am sure I can mark and cut my way through one but it would take forever.
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Here is a porch I recently finished and the arches are all framed as mini barrels. Plywood and 2x4 joists in between.
nice..I like it.
yeah I think the biggest thing with the groin vaults is getting that intersecting curve layed out. if you've got the math to get that curve, actually putting it togther will be the easier part.
I assume the chandelier domes you refer to are like the ones I posted. they are not so much complicated as they are a lot of work cutting all the curved rafters. the layout is pretty straight forward, I would say sheathing the exterior was the hard part - marking and cutting all those pie shapes.
The chandalier domes are like the ones you posted. I would like to try build one in an existing roof between the joists and rafters on a gable for example.
I agree sheeting that would be a pain. What are the rough dimensions of those?
My math is very rusty, so all this talk is overwhelming to say the least. I think I understand how to get the arches right, we will see.
it's been a few years but the small dome was maybe about 10' in diameter and the larger one was maybe about 25' to 30' in diameter.
I have no doubt you'd be able to hadle the domes, they are less intimdating than they look. really it is the one radius that you are dealing with , it's simply a matter of cuttiing it over and over again, and assebling all the cut peices together.
Thats what I figured with the domes. Same rafter cut as many times as needed. And nailed in place. Maybe.
The longer I build one of the vaults in my mind they easier they seem. Not to say they are easy, but as usual with me, my mind is making it harder than it really is.
The valley arch seems to be one of the big questions I still have. On a barrel that wraps a corner I understand that the arch gets longer I am just trying to think of an empirical method to figure them out.
yeah that's all it really is. The big dome in the 1st picture started of with a prefab steel arch that we positioned in the centre, plumbed it, and then everything got built off that. if you look closely you might be able to tell that the arch beam that comes into the packed out steel beam is all cut from 3/4 ply laminated together. (one could also get another prefab beam as well - wood or steel) then cut the rest.
the small dome was all hand cut.
Check out these pics, is this what you're looking for ? Shoot me an email and I'll send some more "in process" pics, and a little description about how to do them. I learned all the math from Joe Bartok. I've done some pretty neat ceilings using the groin vault formula. I like the irregular octagonal groins the best.John
Kirkpatrick...that is all too cool.
I'd love to hear how you built the stairs.
looking at your ceiling pics made me realize that one could cheat and figure out the arc of any of the diagonal curves by disregarding its coresponding curve and simply measure lengh from corner to centre and height from base (of curve) to top of arc and use the simple formula, I picked up from Cloudhidden. http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/55037.html
d^2 + h^2
_____________
2h
(^2 = squared)
not sure method you used, but would love to hear more - if I email you will you cc me a copy what you send to Stilletto?EDIT: man you really have to think about this stuff. I don't think this would work - I think one would have to apply the eliptical solution that Joe provides.
Edited 11/28/2006 4:24 am ET by alrightythen
Edited 11/28/2006 11:22 am ET by alrightythen
Edited 11/28/2006 11:27 am ET by alrightythen
"The valley arch seems to be one of the big questions I still have. On a barrel that wraps a corner I understand that the arch gets longer I am just trying to think of an empirical method to figure them out."
Stilleto, sorry I wasn't very clear yesterday: there is an empirical or geometric method of solving the Valley arches.
Ratio solution of Intersecting Elliptic Barrels
The two intersecting barrels may both be ellipses, the arches may be semi-ellipses or segmented.
In this example the Main barrel is assumed to be circular, the Adjacent is an ellipse. The widths and heights of the barrel segments are given, the 110.63454 Valley segment width may be solved using the Pythagorean Theorem. The diameter of the circular barrel is 90.
Circular Arch Calculator and Formulas: If you wish to make the first barrel an ellipse rather than a circle there are links to calculators which will make life a lot easier at the Groin Vault Home Page.
The axes of the Adjacent and Valley ellipses ae proportional to the widths of the segments. Since we know the width of the circle segment and its diameter, the ratio in question for this example is:
90/72 = 1.25
Major Axis of Adjacent Barrel Ellipse = 84 × 1.25 = 105
Major Axis of Valley Ellipse = 110.63454 × 1.25 = 138.29318
The minor axes of all the ellipses are the circle diameter, 90, the vault height is fixed at 45, the radius of the Main Barrel circle.
With this information we can lay out the ellipses and that can be done empirically or geometrically as well:
Geometric Layout of an Ellipse: The well known "string" method.
Once the curve is traced you can take off a "slice" anywhere you wish if you are making a segmented arch. (In the example, 27 from the Major Axes).
EDIT: I originally posted the minor Axes of the ellipses as being equal to the vault height of 45. This has been corrected; the Minor Axes of all the ellipses = 90, the circle diameter.
Joe Bartok
Edited 11/28/2006 8:33 am ET by JoeBartok
Edited 11/28/2006 10:16 am ET by JoeBartok
Edited 11/28/2006 10:16 am ET by JoeBartok
Edited 11/28/2006 10:18 am ET by JoeBartok
I want to thank everyone in this thread for taking the time to reply. Timuhler, Joe Bartok, kirkpatrick, alrightythen.
The information and links provided have been very helpful. I think I understand the basic principles behind them now. Time to make some saw dust.
When I get to framing these I will post some pictures.
Once again thanks for being patient and replying.
Matt
I didn't buy the book, I don't like 200.00 lessons either.
wanna go halfies?Friends help you move.
Real friends help you move bodies!
Not sure about splitting it, sounds like a deal but what would you read after I got the book? (g)
I found a used one for $150, at a local bookstore. I think I'll buy that one. At least its a cheaper lesson. It was wrapped in plastic so I couldn't peak. LOL
Ever watch Seinfeld?
That book hasn't been flagged for bathroom use has it?
If it is good, let me know. I may take a 200.00 tripFriends help you move.
Real friends help you move bodies!
I'll let you know, Barnes and Noble probably has an open copy there. I'll do some research there to see if it's worth the money.
Framed this last year
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View Image
Not quite a barrel vault ceiling but its the same principle!
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These were at a skatepark in MA.
I have no clue about complex ellipse math. Just thought some of you may find these interesting. I'll post pics of the frame if I can find them.
I'd like to see the framing for that 3rd picture!
I almost don't want to share this, because this is the fine homebuilding site, but here is the "new" way to do all those fancy groins, arches, architectural details inside and out (especially those faux details on the McMansions):
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I can't find the picture of the parts before install, but it's just a big block of styrofoam cut to shape and coated on the exposed side with a rough concrete mix. Square framing, a little glue and you're good to go. The drywall guys like to start with one coat of hot mud then two top coats of regular mud.
Not near as much fun as all that fancy framing work, but a heck of a lot faster (and the end result is outstanding). I think it was bstcrpntr who said his boss underbid - this could be his answer...
EDIT to add... this should have been posted to Stilleto but the address bar scrolled and caught the wrong name - sorry 'bout that!
Edited 11/28/2006 12:38 am by wrudiger