Anyone care to throw out a time estimate for measure-cut-fit-install baseboard per lineal foot? I have to do a price for a client and whilst I’ve done base before, it’s been a while, and back then I didn’t have to do the pricing.
Job has 250 LF of base, one floor level, two small bedrooms, living room, hallway. New carpet. Base will be a simple single moulding 2-1/4″ high, fingerjointed and pre-painted. Inside corners coped. Brad holes filled, sanded and touched up. Cutting area available in attached garage.
TIA,
Wally
Lignum est bonum.
Replies
little less than a full day ...
so we'll start with the day rate of $360 ...
knock off $60 ...
work not so fast we actually work up a sweat ... go home a little early.
around noon guess at how long we can extend lunch and still have the garage swept spotless while keeping that goal of beating traffic in mind ....
$300 it is ....
but I don't paint.
Jeff
Who's movin the furniture??
Otherwise what Jeff said..........plus............he's lowballin again! ;~)
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Pre-primed or pre-painted? Either way the painters should fill the nail holes.
Is the new carpet already in? Sounds like it, so plan on plenty of nice white drop cloths to protect all of it.
I don't think so much in terms of lineal footage as per piece. 5 pieces in a closet might add up to 7 or 8 LF, and I could do a room with 40 or 50 LF almost as fast. Most of it is in the measuring, cutting, and coping, which takes almost the same time whether the piece is 2 feet or 14 feet.
Anyway, should take a day. Don't charge less than a day rate... nothing takes less than a day. You can be home early, but paid or unpaid is your choice.
Dave,
I know what you're thinking about per piece than per foot, but those small pieces tend to balance out the large ones. I would call this a fairly 'normal' residential job, no bay windows, only one closet, but no big rooms with long straight runs either. On a lot of labour tasks I use a baseline time per unit and then adjust it up or down depending on degree of difficulty.
So the question remains: does anyone care to post their basic time per foot of base? In response to other posters' questions: carpet is already laid. I will pre-paint and touch up, but let's keep that as a separate task. Ditto for furniture.
Thanks,
Wally
Lignum est bonum.
Wally- "So the question remains: does anyone care to post their basic time per foot of base?"
Its hard to pine down exactly what "basic" is but our Labor Hour figures per foot basically range from .038 to .048 per foot depending upon the material but for what you are talking about I would be using the .038 figure. Jim Tolpin in his book Finish Carpenter Manual gives one figure of .04 per linear foot so those are all right in line I think. You might want to pick up his book since in addition to be a good training how-to training manual it also gives some basic task times for those same typical basic carpentry tasks.
However again to reiterate what some others are getting at here it important to account for all the miscellaneous related tasks for such a small job like the one you are describing. The .038 to .048 Labor Hour Per Foot is for the pure task of installing the base so in other words you need to still need to account for your Set-up and Take-down and any conditions where the task varies from a typical straight forward standard installation. Two years ago I wrote in a series of posts about a small job installation and how I would approach pricing it in the crown molding prices topic. You might want to check out my explanations and approaches there too.
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Edited 10/7/2004 4:40 pm ET by Jerrald Hayes
I guess I have a different take than the rest, so far(Sonny hasn't dropped in<G>). I'm looking at that job as a PITA. Shoots a whole day for me...and, I've got to keep my helper busy, too. $580 for the carpentry, no complaints, 5 yr warrenty (and we'll check back every year, who knows what else we'll pick up?)...and if I need to come out and price/bid it, that's 50 more unrefundable beans.
I do have other work, so, for some that might make a difference. I'm not giving away a value that I am providing to their house. This forum has been invaluable to me, Sonny & Mike in particular,it's a business, not a charity giveaway<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
who U kidding ... yer gonna sit in the truck and inspect the helpers work when he's done!
Jeff
You know what? Chicken butt Ha Ha Ha
Like I could sit in the truck all day...I'm pretty sure you don't get it, and you're going to over simplify it with your incredibly large mind, but there's a bit more involved than just having a helper...oh, but you knew that, just like you know 'bout everything...I was just passing along what I actually get for a job like that...and I still don't feel like it's enough<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
bucksnort billy "I guess I have a different take than the rest, so far(Sonny hasn't dropped in<G>). I'm looking at that job as a PITA. Shoots a whole day for me...and, I've got to keep my helper busy, too."
Well I'm certainly not really in any disagreement with you on your pricing strategy at all BB (except for the part about keeping a helper busy) but in his post to davidmeiland Wally was asking for the pure Productivity figure for the just the task of laying of base molding. I do however agree with you that if a project shoots the day or any part of the day for any other work then that project really should be charged for that lost time in one way or another.
However I have a question for you regarding that helper you are going to charge me (if I was your client) that you really don't need at all to do the project. What's up with that? What's he going to do, just stand and watch? To tell you the truth the job Wally's talking about sounds really basic and simple so why not just send the helper on solo to do it in the first place?
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the helper is gonna "help".
the price you agreed to ahead of time is the price.
helper or no helper.
The customer doesn't get to decide who I train and when.
nor decide when and where I decide I need "help".
Jeff
You're missing the point. The carpenter/helper crew config for a job like that is a joke, a waste. If I was a residential client I would go with the solo handyman instead of BB. If I was a GC client I'd be pissed off and probably think you were trying to milk me or at best just really misguided in determining your crew size.
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I have help because I'm old. Because I'm old I have experience. Experience tells me that I'm going to have to drag out out a saw, stand,saw horses, compressor, cords, hoses, nail gun, pinner, glue, sandpaper, & my lunch. Ihad to load everything up to do this job, then after it's done, I've got to reload it. I don't think I have to go into the overhead of being a legal craftsperson. Oh yeah, the legal stuff with the IRS, state, insurance and the time it takes to deal with that. Seems like some folks thinks that the cost of doing biz is like a priviledge. And then, there's the fact that I am a craftsperson. And, I guarantee my work for 5 years.
Nobody is forced to pay $580 for 250' of base. That's just what I charge. I have work that pays that much. It doesn't matter if I have a helper or not, although that does make things faster, what seems to matter is that I know how to take care of a certain task and that I have the capability to do that.
I'm not tying to brag, it's just that I think I've learned to work smarter & better by the virtue screwing up repeatedly...and somehow I've conned people into paying me for all those screw ups<G>
Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Edited 10/7/2004 9:58 pm ET by bucksnort billy
You're missing the point too. If you can get $580 for 250' of base that's great. But why not send the helper to install it solo. You could then be somewhere else doing something else generating even more revenue doing something that really requires your expertise and experience. Or obviously you could also do the the base molding install and send the helper to another simple job within the helpers range of expertise. Either way you are generating more revenue.
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Edited 10/7/2004 10:22 pm ET by Jerrald Hayes
Or you could enjoy putting in the base with a helper and make it an enjoyable day. Small business owner makes a decent profit, enough to pay the bills and make a nice life for himself, and the helper gains some experience and makes a little money too...dependent upon his skill level of course.
I dare say not all want to divide and conquer.
I could be missing the point, but here, helpers are just that, helpers. You, and others here have helped me realize what my work is worth. 580 is what is worth to me to go and run just that base job.
I do whole houses, you know that, so obviously, that price is not a reflection of what I do there. It is, however, what I charge to go and do one day's work...and from a lot of what I see here, that's cheap.
Sometimes I get the job, sometimes I don't. I have worked long and hard enough that I don't care a whole lot about the ones I don't get.
A very important thing that I have learned on this forum is to don't ever bid a job like I need the work. Quality work, quality pay, I haven't been sorry yet. Don't worry, we can fix that later!
I don't really disagree with anything you've said there. I know my own company's pricing has been described as "arrogant" by some of the GCs we've done work for. But you don't send two people, a carpenter and a helper, to do a simple one person project. That's just wastefully giving away the money you just earned by selling your company's value. If the project is worth $580 for your company you (or your helper) do the project solo to maximize what you get in profit out of the project. Making it a two person project doesn't add any value for the customer and it's just sending your company's potential net profits off into thin air.
That said I also think for the small operator hiring a helper as the first employee is also generally wasteful. I think (generally speaking again) that a company should have at least 3 Journeyman level carpenters first to justify and make a helper anything near a profitable investment but that's a whole other discussion.
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I agree. Baseboard with a helper? Help do what?
You know, it's funny, I started working with helpers when my sons needed some cash. I guess I just took it for granted that some people are trainable. Obviously, when you're working with your kids, the bottom line isn't as important. But I must have accidentally learned how to train good helpers<G>
While, I generally agree with you, you've made me realize that I work under a whole different system. Around here, there are differences, carpenter to carpenter, in quality and quantity of work produced. Just because a guy's a journeyman carpenter doesn't guarantee he's going to nail up the base tightly, make sure all the nails are set, sand the corners squarely, fit the base cap evenly, return where needed...keep the collateral damage to a minimum, and then clean up.
I get most jobs because I'm such a freak about making stuff fit, and because, I don't usually have callbacks. I find I have much more control over the quality when I work with a helper. And, I enjoy working that way.
I understand that, 99% of the time, I'm not getting this particular base job. But, when I do, it's worth it to me, and I try my best to make it worth it for the client.
I think there's a difference in attitude here. First I think about the craftmanship that's going to have to go into a job, and then I try put a satisfying price tag on that. I realize I'm no business man, and the only reason I've been around so long is because of the craftsmanship, so that's what I try to trade on<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Let's see.... that's a range of about 21 to about 26 feet per hour. Sounds fair. The last base I installed was about 7" and had a PITA profile to cope, and I could easily get three sticks off the pile every hour. So, I'd say the math works for the OP but it still kills a day and shouldn't cost less than a full day.
Thanks Jerrald for the time numbers I was asking for. They sit OK with my estimate although I arrived there via different methodology. Yes I had allowed for move/replace furniture, load/unload tools, 2 coats paint + fill, sand and touch up, materials pickup, waste disposal etc.
My customer today accepted my quotation of $1200 CDN (about $950 US). Materials are $200 CDN of that. This is a weekend side job for me, and I consider it to be overtime, so my labour rate reflects that. It's up to the customer whether they accept or not. I'm already as busy as I care to be and have bookings into December, so my price can't be all that bad. My son will help on this job and it will be a pleasant day.
Thanks for the link to the book, I will try to find a copy.
Wally
Lignum est bonum.
If you wont have to move furniture I'd go with a short day, charge for a full day and let the painter fill the holes.
$400. divided by 250LF = $1.60
Now, that wasn't so hard.