I have a new poured concrete basement that is open to the old, field stone basement (house is 160 years old, the new section is 40X18, the old section is 20X30. the old and new meet in a “T” shape, on one of the 20′ walls in the middle of one of the 40′ walls). We live in New England, so we get the full range of weather.
My new basement is not that deep (maybe 7′?) I’m not looking to finish it, but I do want to use it for somethings (storage, my wife wants to put gardening stuff there, and she wants to have some kind of weight machine she can use down there to keep fit — something I want to encourage ;-).
I had unfaced fiberglass bats put in between the joists in the new section to help save some money, keep floors up above warm, etc.
Here’s my issue — with my wife wanting to use the basement now with more frequency than I planned, I want to put something up on the ceiling to keep from having to breath the loose fiberglass filaments.
I’ve thought of a drop celing, but with the gas feed pipes, shut-offs, and low height, this is almost infeasible (one other issue: the old and new basements have different floor and ceiling heights such that if I put in a drop ceiling, it would challenge you moving from the old (where the stairs are) to the new).
I’ve also considered buying drop celing panels and screwing them to the joists, but 1) I’d spend forever cutting around the pipes (gas, waste, water, heating) and wires, and 2) I would no longer have easy access to shut offs, and additional cable runs I may want to do.
Now I’m thiking of stapling 2-3 mil plastic to the joists. I’d need to wrap all the baseboard hot water heating feeds and returns so the plastic doesn’t melt, but that’s not a big issues. This gives me containment of the fiberglass, and I can EASILY both cut around shut offs or other critical areas, and take it down and put it back up again if needed. My issue is moisture.
With the field stone foundation, the basement gets fairly humid in the summer. I run a dehumidifier with some irregularity to help protect what we have stored down there. But, couldn’t moisture get trapped between this plastic and the rosin paper below the hardwood floor upstairs, and damage the joists and subfloor? Since my goal is fiberglass containment, maybe I could slit some airholes? Another fix is to pull the fiberglass, but that’s a lousy job, and negates the insulation benefits. I could also just do this plastic fix, and monitor it closely, given that it’s not a “high cost” fix and could be disposed of, if it doesn’t work.
Maybe I just talked myself into the last one. I’m not sure — kind of graspin here. Any ideas would be great help.
-Bill in Boston
Replies
DON'T do the plastic on the ceiling. Its a major fire hazard, and not worth the risk.
It might even negate your homeowner's insurance.
I'd recommend putting up a sheetrock ceiling. its fairly inexpensive, can be cut into and repaired easily, and you can install access panels in it to get to any shutoffs.
If your not all that concerned about looks, you can cut and fit fairly small pieces to fit around the wires and pipes, and tape them in after.
Duh! Thanks for the dope-slap. Good point -- especially with the gas-fired furnace. But it would go up so easily with any spark. I wonder if there is some other fire-retardant rolled product?
Any rate, maybe I'm back to some kind of panels, though I might shy away from sheetrock in favor some something lighter and easier to install (back to the drop ceiling panels, maybe).
Maybe I should just pull the insulation... It can't represent THAT much savings as my furnace and the heater feeds warm the basement to some extent anyway.
Any other comments welcome. Perhaps if anyone knows of any new products?
How about Tyvek? It would contain the fiberglass, but allow movement of water vapor. I don't know about the fire spread issue, however.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
I thought about the Tyvek, too, but also wasn't sure about the fire issue.
I think I'd rather not take my chances on it if it were my project.
The Tyvek web site says this on flammability. Unfortunately, I don't know what this means! I'm a woodworker who tinkers on his house, not a GC, so I don't know much about flammability issues.
"The flammability characteristics of Spunbonded Olefin, a synthetic nonwoven material, are similar to those of most synthetic fibers. When exposed to a flame, Spunbonded Olefin shrinks away rapidly. If the flame is made to follow the shrinking sheet, Spunbonded Olefin will melt at 275°F (135°C), and if its auto-ignition temperature of 750°F (400°C) is reached, it will burn.
Type 10 Spunbonded Olefin is rated class "A" when tested in accordance with ASTM E-84-89a. Types 14 and 16 are rated "Class 1—Normal Flammability" by the Federal Flammable Fabrics Act for Clothing Textiles (16 CFR-1610). Spunbonded Olefin does not pass DOC FF3-71, Children’s Sleepwear Test.*
Spunbonded Olefin and laminates of Spunbonded Olefin are not intended for use in fire-retardant garments. The user should ensure that Spunbonded Olefin meets all flammability standards for the application."
Unfortunately, I don't speak technique-elese very well.
But it doesn't sound like tyvek would be very good in a fire.
Check out the tek-foil at lowes..it is like foil faced bubble wrap, a 4' x 50 roll is 49.oo I think.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
The reason you shouldn't use Tyvek or any regular synthetic in children's clothing or fire-retardant garments is that it melts, and the melted plastic can cause severe burns. When polyester first became popular for uniforms, many firemen's "dress" uniforms were changed to this. Unfortunately, it was found that this often resulted in severe burns when the firemen put their call-outs (is that the right term?) over the polyester.In terms of "supporting" combustion, Tyvek doesn't. It will only burn when there's another fuel providing the heat for the fire.
Several years ago this topic came up in a different forum, and I decided to do my own test of Tyvek. Net-net is that it burns very poorly -- will not support combustion. It does put off a fair amount of dense smoke when burning, but you'd have to have a fairly big fire (from another source) going for that to be a problem.Re the original question, drywall, Tyvek, and weed-control fabric are probably good choices. (Test the weed-control fabric for flammability before using that option.) The weed-control fabric has the advantage of being cheap and easy to work with.
I'll see if I can find Tyvek on-line for its specs. I also found http://www.americover.com/telecomfr.htm which has a product called ASFR6 Cover, which claims "Passes fire test NFPA 701-99 test" But I don't know what that standard is.
Are standard drop ceiling tiles fire retardant? Can I put the over the gas-fired furnace, or would I have to put some sheet rock up there (code says I don't need anything right now, but if I add Accoustic tiles, I wonder if that changes anything)...
Price the drop ceiling panel vs. sheetrock.
The sheetrock ( I think) will be cheaper. You could even cut it into 2x4 panels like the ceiling tiles.
I'll keep thnking about other options. Maybe some others will chime in, too.
OK - new approach to this question. I don't like any sort of fire retardant rolled solution -- just don't trust it. So, I can spend a lot of time cutting in sheetrock or whatever, or I could just remove all the fibreglass, and get on with my life.
Any opinions -- what would you do in your basement? Leave in the fiberglass, and spend a lot of time cutting in sheetrock around pipes, etc. or just pull the fiberglass, and ejoy the beauty of exposed joists and wires.
The basement has the furnace and forced hot water pipes running everywhere, anyway. So, unless I wrap them (which they haven't), the basement is never going to get that cold anyway. Does insulation in the floor joists really impact the floor that much above it? (this is the north east US). It can't be that much cost savings, can it?
You could nail 1X4s to the bottom of each floor joist then cut and lay in the sheetrock
Bill, how often is the basement being used in the winter? Are you/DW only do the fitness thing in the summer or all year round?
Have you checked the temperature difference between the ground floor and the basement in the winter? You are probably right that your savings is not that much by leaving the fiberglass in there. To make the basement more inhabitable, you are better off by insulating the basement walls.
Probably should have thought this out before, but because the old part of the basement is nasty, old drippy field stone, I never anticipated using the basement for anything but storage, so the subs went just about wherever they wanted w/pipes. The new part of the basement has all the mechanicals, the waste piping, the bulkhead, electrical, water feeds, baseboard hot water feeds, etc. etc.
So, insulating anything down there is tricky. I would say in the coldest of the year (gets to around zero farenheight) it might be 40-45 degrees in the basement, 68 upstairs. The wife wants to set up the workout room for the winter, as she runs in the summer. She wants one of those weight machines she can use 2X per week or so. I do want to support her endeavors!
She wants one of those weight machines she can use 2X per week or so. I do want to support her endeavors!
Depends on how long you think you are going to stay in this house, plugging in a portable heater every time she wants to go down there just won't cut it. You are talking about motivation and incentive here. :)
So either insulate the walls and put in a whirlpool or a sauna or both or she may want to join a fitness club in the winter.
I think I would pull out the ceiling insulation, build quick and dirty stud walls around the perimeter walls, insulate, and drywall them. I did this some years ago for a HO in a situation similar to yours. They wanted something quick and cheap, and did not want the expense of a wood stud wall.
We used Z strips, which attached to the wall with special fasteners (just hammered in). The Z strip captured 1 1/2" styrofoam, then we screwed sheetrock to the strips, and did one coat of tape/mud.
Z strip fasteners were meant for block walls, but we used them over limestone rocks, and ran the fasteners into the mortar joints (had to do a little shimming here and there).
In some houses, you can apparently have a heat loss of almost 20% through the basement walls/floor. This would also mitigate your humidity problems in the older part of the basement.
Nikkiwood,
I looked on-line, and called my lumber yard. Not sure what Z Strips are. Can you elaborate?
Metal strips in a "Z shape" -- got them from a large drywall supplier here in MN. I have never seen them in a home center.
One of the flanges attaches to the wall, and the other is used to attach the sheet rock.
I only used them once, and it is possible they are called something else.
Edited 11/9/2004 9:21 am ET by nikkiwood
Nikkiwoods comments on heat loss and doing your walls are good. I had a similar situation and I insulated and sheetrocked the walls, and reduced my energy use for heating by 30%.
I have a 4-year old house with R-38 ceiling, R-19 walls in western Montana. The 6" concrete wall basement was uninsulated, mostly below ground, and only heated by duct loss, the gas water heater, and dryer use. To make the basement more comfortable for lifting weights and a stationary bicycle trainer I glued R-6 beadboard around the perimeter then built an interior 2x4 wall with fiberglass insulation and sheetrock. Before the insulating job, basement temperatures would drop to 54 in the winter (remember the ducts were warm), and rise to 65 in the summer. Now it varies from 58-62, which is really good for the exercise area.
The best part is that I cut 30% off my energy use last winter. That's 30% of energy, not just dollars, and energy costs are rising. That 30% is normalized for temperature differences so it wasn't just a warm winter that caused the savings. Here's a (long) link to the details on my web page:
http://www2.umt.edu/Geology/faculty/sheriff/Sheriff_Vita_abstracts/Basement%20Insulation%20Energy%20Savings.htm
Get the 'glas out of the ceiling. The various other posters are right that you should use the insulation on the walls in your case. Especially, you don't want to encapsulate moisture against the ceiling. I've got a similar situation with my home. I always wondered if the insulation was hiding termites; when I tore it out I found snakes instead.
The basement of my new(er) addition is unheated and I'm resolving this by installing a pellet heater venting through the wall. (The basement in the addition is a walk out.)
I'd want to study the moisture issue before I studded and drywalled my original old stone basement. That room can eat a dehumidifier alive in a wet season.
Actually, I like the idea of insulating the walls, but I am concerned about studding against the walls, especially the field stone part. I also don't want to grow a mold factory anywhere, especially now that insurance refuses to cover such a situation.
Has anyone ended up with mold problems by insulating and putting up a wall against a foundation that is NOT insulated outside? The newer part did get the tar treatment, but that's it. The old part, as I say, is field stone. The one saving grace is that the soil here is very sandy, so I don't get puddles from the field stone, just weeping.
If you install the foamboard correctly against the inside of the foundation, then you are absolutely doing the right thing. I would use at least 1" foam. You can build the walls against the foam without too much concern about mold -- but you may need a dehumidifier in any event. Study the below website carefully before you do anything:
http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/foundations/basement_insulation_systems.pdf
Billy
Thanks Billy. Very helpful. I will read it tonight.
I also called our town building inspector, who used to have a sizeable construction company, before he wanted a quieter life. I asked him about whats permitted over a gas furnace if I did put something on the ceiling. He said as long as the clearance is high enough, it doesn't much matter. If an oil furnace catches fire, you need something with a burn time above it, so people can get out of the house. If a gas furnace catches, it just blows up -- doesn't matter what's above it.
Based on the Building Sciences link you provided, I think I will go for Foil-faced polyisocyanurate rigid insulation on the upper half of my walls.
The article states the majority of heat loss is from the upper part (exposed portion) of the foundation. This should allow the lower parts of the walls to dry to the inside, and the upper parts to dry to the outside. It doesn't get 100% of my energy savings possibilities, but the article does say it gets something like 70%. It also helps me get around a number of issues, such as the fact that running the length of the basement, my walls are bisected by the waste pipes from the 3 bathrooms and kitchen. Now I don't need to engineer anything -- just glue the panels up.
I may use the fire retardant plastic I found on-line for the ceiling (ASFR6 from http://www.americover.com), but if I feel the basement is warm enough with the newly installed panels, I might then decide to take down the plastic and pull the glass (although my building inspector said the plastic doesn't violate code, it's still a little worrisome to me).
1/4" or 3/8" drywall would be easy to put on the ceiling.
Yet another follow up to this question of insulating a basement.
I still plan to insulate the walls with rigid foam, etc. but my wife is afraid if I pull the glass from the basement/first floor joists that the floors will get colder.
Can I cut and fit foam insulation between the joists, and up against the sub floor from below, and then screw up sheetrock between the joists directly against the foam insulation?
This seems to me to be a bit expensive, but solves a lot of problems:
1) no vermin home created as with a drop ceiling, sheetrock or anything else on the bottom of the joists
2) no fiberglass blowing around the room
3) some insulating qualities (as thick as I want to go with the foam)
My issues (besides cost) are:
Are there moisture implications with that?
What about squeeking from foam insulation being between the joists?
Anyone ever do anything like this? Any concerns?
-Bill
I don't think you will have to worry about cold floors. Because the basement will be living space and basement walls will be inslated, there will be very little temperature differential between the basement and the first floor.
If there are wires and pipes in the basement ceiling it would be difficult to cut foam around them. And retrofits may be tough. And there may be fire code issues. You don't want most can lights near the foam.
I would just stick with the fiberglass -- or nothing -- in the basement ceiling.
Billy
With the walls insulated and the area heated,etc, there is no need for the ceiling insulation at all.