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Discussion Forum

Basement Conumdrum

JustMike | Posted in General Discussion on August 11, 2009 10:59am

Hi all,

First off as a slight introduction. I’m new to the forum, but not to Fine Homebuilding. I’ve been buying and reading the magazines and books for many years. I’m not a seasoned pro, but I’ve tackled (and still tackle) many types of jobs. And I thank the pros who have wrote down in the pages of Fine Homebuilding their experience to pass on to us amateurs. 🙂 I live in Toronto, Canada doing small renos and handyman work part-time for almost 15 years. 🙂

The situation I’m in is this: My basement got flooded last week by a back-up in the sewer. It was like a flash flood and the water came up (passed the back-flow preventer valve) through the floor drain and up the basement bathtub. The finished floor was taken out and the drywall cut about a foot and a half above the concrete floor.

Upon inspection, I noticed the sole plate is sitting on the concrete with no gasket or poly under it. The studs are at 24″ center and there is blue foam behind the framing. I have no idea when this basement was finished. The house was built in ’58, but I doubt it is that old. (2×4’s are 1 1/2″ x 3 1/2″.) And everything is sound with no sign of rot or mold.

Obviously, I’m going to have to get something under that sole plate. Whether I cut the studs higher to account for a new sub-floor installation and attach the framing to the new sub-floor, or just cut off the studs at the sole plate, take out the plate, wrap it in poly and re-insert it.

OR, should I just rip off the whole drywall, reframe it at 16″ centers (even though there really isn’t any load on the framed walls) and inspect everything. Especially the space between the 1st floor floor joists for insulation. I do have to remove some of the ceiling to run wires because the house is not properly wired in the first place.

Any suggestions or advice would be well appreciated.

Thanks.

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Replies

  1. cussnu2 | Aug 11, 2009 11:20pm | #1

    Do you want it to be right for rights sake or is there a problem?  In other words, if it ain't broke don't fix it.  Yes concrete and wood CAN be a problem but that doesn't mean it WILL be a problem.  How many years has it already been like that without an issue? 

    I guess if you must you could also cuts the studs free and pound in a PT plate

    BTW, I am assuming the current one isn't PT and you have confirmed it.

     

     

    1. JustMike | Aug 12, 2009 01:22am | #2

      Yeah, I'm the type that if it isn't right, then make it right. If I do just cut off the studs, then I would either wrap the sole plate, or put in PT wood. The current plate is NOT pressure treated. I looked again, and there are 2x3's along one wall that are older (1 5/8" x 2 5/8"). I figured that while it's open, why not make it right before it does get bad and I'd have to rip up everything AGAIN.

  2. mike4244 | Aug 12, 2009 01:43am | #3

    Mike, after reading your post twice, I would go with the last option.Remove it all, make whatever changes to the electrical you deem necessary. Then reframe at 16" oc. You could use metal studs and galvanized plates if you are comfortable working with them. Installed correctly metal studs are easier and in some cases better than wood to install. They do not warp, twist or wind. Perfect for most basement walls that are not load bearing.

    mike

    1. JustMike | Aug 12, 2009 01:59am | #4

      Hi Mike,I'm reluctant to use metal studs in a basement for a number of reasons. One being that the basement was already flooded back in 2001, I believe. we bought the house last September. If it ever does get wet again, then the studs can rust. They can also create an energized situation if there's ever another flood. When I saw the water last Tuesday, the first thing I checked was if the water was energized. I'd use metal for bulkheads, though.Deep down inside I do want to remove everything. But I need to consider cost. Would it be feasible to go total gut? Hmmm.Thanks.

      1. mike4244 | Aug 12, 2009 11:31pm | #16

        You have removed the floor already, part of the rock.I would gut it myself .This would make it easier for you to correct the electrical work you mentioned also.

        I won't try to talk you into metal studs, their are galvanized metal studs too.I mentioned this just for your info.

        I don't recall the dimensions pn your basement but usually the cost to frame and sheetrock a basement,materials, only is not a heck of a lot of money. Sometimes the labor can be expensive, but your doing the work yourself,for your own home. Besides you wanted to frame at 16"o.c. instead of the original 24".

        mike

  3. Shep | Aug 12, 2009 02:11am | #5

    If everything else is in decent shape, I'd just cut the nails holding the studs to the plate with a metal blade in a recip saw,  install a new PT sill plate with Tapcons, and toenail the studs into the new plate.

    I'd also be sure the PT concentration is meant for contact with masonry.

    1. Jed42 | Aug 12, 2009 05:48am | #6

      I am going to agree with Shep here (as I often find myself doing).  If there's no load, it should be rather simple.

      I also wanted to say that I'm not so sure that 2x3's 24OC on a non-bearing wall in a basement is not "right".  If they're in good condition and are doing their job (holding drywall), then why replace them?

      Replacing the plate with PT is the right thing to do IMO, especially if your basement is not a stranger to wet, but I'm gonna disagree with the replacing everything idea...unless it's damaged, soaking wet, or if you NEED to in order to do your electric project.  I stress NEEEED.

      Unless you have a lot of money.

      And time.

      BTW- I have been a member here for a little less than a year.  The information and knowledge provided in this forum is priceless...So, welcome, I hope you enjoy it as much as I have. 

       No Coffee No Workee!

  4. roger g | Aug 12, 2009 05:50am | #7

    Built in 1958!!!!! The reason you don't have pressure treated wood is because they didn't have pressure treated wood back then. The same thing applies to a gasket or poly under the sill plate!
    Believe it or not, probably millions of house were built without any of the above and they didn't all rot away.
    I built my first house back in 1973 and I used tar paper under the sill plate and I thought I was unusual doing THAT much.
    The new techniques are a good idea but that doesn't mean that the old were that bad.
    Just remember 40 years from now when a whole new set of standards are being used the ones you now use will look pretty stupid by the new young guys.

    roger

    1. User avater
      BillHartmann | Aug 12, 2009 07:06am | #8

      They didn't have blue foam back in 58 either.The wall is clearly much new than that..
      William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

      1. drozer | Aug 12, 2009 02:14pm | #9

        guy named mike.from toronto.remodeler.doesn't like metal studs in basements.wants to "make it right".could it be...

        1. drozer | Aug 12, 2009 02:20pm | #10

          just noticed another clue.spelled conundrum wrong. <g>

          1. JustMike | Aug 12, 2009 10:02pm | #14

            It's spelled right. I made sure before I posted it. :)

        2. JustMike | Aug 12, 2009 09:59pm | #13

          LOL. NO.

        3. Shacko | Aug 13, 2009 12:22am | #17

          Could he be one of the (SECRET) monitors? LOL

           "If all else fails, read the directions"

      2. roger g | Aug 12, 2009 04:40pm | #11

        Good point. They had foam boards back in the sixties but real crumbly stuff. Not sure when the blue stuff came out. First heard of pressure treated stuff called "Wolmanized" in the late seventies and though it was around it was rarely used. Decks and balconies were not common in southern Ontario. We used patio stones on the ground and were called..................patios. In my minds eye I can remember the first decks just being really a raised patio. Just off the ground.
        It would be interesting to see when pressure treated wood was used or mandated in southern Ontario.I don't remember it being used in the 90's in new construction though it might have been.
        In the early seventies the 2x4 were 1 5/8 x 3 5/8 but shortly changed to 2 1/2 x 3 1/2 so I'm guessing the 1 5/8 x 2 5/8 is pretty old wood.As an aside to the basement problem: some basements are not meant to be finished and lived in. 2 floods in less than 10 years? Mike might have one of those basements.roger

        1. JustMike | Aug 12, 2009 09:58pm | #12

          Roger, don't say that. :)

        2. JustMike | Aug 12, 2009 10:11pm | #15

          This basement is very dry. Not a leaky one at all. The 1x3 with the larger dimensions is dark brown from age. No sign of water marks on it. I think the back-flow valve was installed after the first flood. It only took me 1 1/2 turns to take off the clean-out and over six to put it back. The water could have also leaked through that. The little flapper moved freely, but there WAS some crud on it. Not heavy enough to keep it down.I think I'll follow the advice posted here and just cut the sole plate free and replace it with PT.Thanks everyone. It's funny, if it was someone else's house, I wouldn't have hesitated with the decision. But since it's my own, I'm much more picky. :)

    2. rlrefalo | Aug 13, 2009 03:32am | #18

      Actually treated wood was invented in 1911. I' ve seen it on houses from the forties.

      Rich

      1. roger g | Aug 13, 2009 05:54am | #19

        Treated maybe like telephone poles.
        "Pressure" treated, I have my doubts.roger

        1. JustMike | Aug 13, 2009 10:05pm | #21

          I checked this out from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation"Commercial pressure treatment began in the latter half of the 1800s with the protection of railroad crossties using creosote. Treated wood was used primarily for industrial, agricultural, and utility applications, where it is still used, until its use grew considerably (at least in the United States) in the 1970s as homeowners began building decks and backyard projects."

          1. roger g | Aug 14, 2009 02:25am | #22

            Interesting. Creosote and/or tar were the only things that were available to ordinary person and you sure wouldn't want any of that in your house. The bottom of wooden posts were the only thing I can remember ever being used.
            Then as I said when decks and balconies became fashion then everything changed. Since I've moved to the west coast and found that everything is made of wood and is rotting as we speak is a renovators dream come true.
            I've seen homes 15 years old out here with substantial rot. None of which I ever saw in Ontario. Not that it doesn't happen but I never saw it to the degree I see it out here.
            Fashion dictates construction.roger

          2. JustMike | Aug 14, 2009 03:21am | #23

            And to think I almost moved out there two years ago to work in renos.

          3. roger g | Aug 14, 2009 03:42am | #24

            Fair amount of work but the worst pay rate considering the high cost of everything. Being busy and making money are two different things.roger

  5. Hackinatit | Aug 13, 2009 12:20pm | #20

    Raise the plate enough to insert 30# felt between it and the concrete.

     

    A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.

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