I am starting a fairly complex basement/bathroom/laundry renovation and have run into my first real problem. The current condition of the floor is solid and dry but the level is terrible,my first measurement tells me the the slope is about 3 in. in about a 4 ft run toward the drain. This obviously too much to look good after a tile job and so I have to do some kind of leveling technique. My question is how to go about it and what products to use and the cost. Can you use the ready mixed leveling compounds to do this and what is the max thickness these products can be expected to handle. The standard products from the big box stores are quite expensive if you calculate the amount I will require. Previous advice givers tell me to add aggregate to these products but at what mix ratio,they don’t know. I have to do substantial plumbing under the slab,should I just give in and plan on pouring a complete new pad. the total area in question is aprox. 12by14 obviously much thinner level compound required at the perimeter but still substantial. Remember that I am just the home owner and breaking up the slab is almost too much work to contemplate due to the distance material will have to be moved and the age of my back. Is scribing a series of trestles under the worst part an option,use treated 2by4 and lay them in series to support a new subfloor,if this is possible,what material is the new subfloor made from if I am planning a new floor with some ceramic tile and some type of laminate. just to add to the questions I would also like to include some type of in floor heating system,does any or all of this work OK together. Your help with this is very important
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12x14 isn't that big compared to jobs I've done. Depending on what flooring you will lay there are two options that are pretty cheap.
1) If you are laying tile over the whole area, a mud job can be done pretty cheaply. I reccomend that you put a isolation membrane down first.
2) If you can get a cement truck into the driveway, you can "shoot" new concrete into the basement through a window. Concrete is cheap. A good mason can do the job in a couple of hours.
I don't have easy basement access all material would have to be wheel barrowed and then somehow down the stairs. Glass block windows installed by the previous owner. No alternate plan to level? You don't use the leveling compound? Are you suggesting the tile mud as the leveling agent? I plan to put down a wood subfloor and I think the name I saw was dri-deck or something like that. It has a rubber backing that has a weeping channel design to handle any potential dampness. It ia a tongue and groove design and comes in 2by2 panels which makes for easy handling and is 5/8 thick. If I use this proposed method I don't have to pay great attention to the overall floor finish after all the cutting and plumbing is installed. I had planned to tile a portion of this area and then the rest would be a laminate product that I have not picked out yet,open to suggestions here also. Thanks for taking the time to help me with this project.
Steve, Sometimes we have to DE-struct before we can CON-struct. Those dri-core panels are relatively expensive and are a real PITA to get dead level and flat regardless of what they tell you on the packaging. A glass block window is cheap to replace...especially if you replace it with an acrylic block window like a hy-lite. They are about $200. If busting out a glass block window meant making shooting concrete easier, I'd do it in a heartbeat.Laminate flooring is a big no-no in a basement. You can bet the over time, it will look terrible due to all the moisture coming through the slab and walls. Laminates are essentially MDF. Ever see what wet MDF looks like? It's a trainwreck. Tile is OK for a basement, but I personally don't like the cold feel of tile on slab. You'll still need the mudjob.What kind of headroom do you have? If you have headroom to spare, and don't want to do the concrete route, you could consider a PT sleeper system that's either shimmed or scribed. Again, I would worry about trapped moisture between the slab and plywood.Check out http://www.legatocarpet.com. I'm actually going to try this carpet system in my own house to see if I can start using it on jobs.
I put it in my house. Did the office and hallway. Make sure everything is TIGHT. Most of the room is good, but a transition around the desk chair and hallway, well, something must have gone array because one or two of the tiles move noticeably sometimes.But they beat trying to fit a 12' roll in nicely. I'm no carpet layer.
You asked about leveling compound. Yes, I use it, but it's not recco'd to use for more than about 1" max. Plus, one bag is $30. You'd need 20 bags AT LEAST to handle a 3-4" dip over a 12x14 area.Honestly, I do a lot of basement remodeling and I think your best bet based on what you've posted it to pour a new concrete floor right over the old. Concrete is probably the least expensive way I can think of to handle your situation. You will really need to let the floor cure for at least 60 days before you anything on top of it. In fact, the longer you wait the better.
I had a similar situation in a basement a while back. Mine must have been almost 4" lower at the drain and maybe more than that.
I used the self-leveling cement (@HD $29 bag), used 6 bags around the drain - brought it up probably 2-3" I think - I used a chunk of PVC to extend the drain to the surface.
To further level the floor for the dri-core panel installation, I cut 3 8'x5" PT plywood strips, tapered the ends with a power planer and attached them to the floor near the drain. My dri-core panels were able to rest on these "runners" and it allowed the whole subfloor to equal out slightly so it didn't feel like you were going downhill at every spot.
I also used quite a few of the dricore shims to help the process.
The cement is cool - just pour it and it'll make itself level - you can taper the edges slightly before it's dry.
I'm pretty sure the package says it can go to a depth deeper than 1" - you just have to pour it in stages - and pay attention to the procedures for dry time and primer application.
I installed a laminate floor over the dricore, and the end result - although definitely not level - is close enough to live with without noticing.
JT
The first thing to remember is that self-leveling materials will give a level (horizontal) surface, which is not what you want.
It is against code in many places, and not a good idea in general, to plug up and eliminate the drain. So what you want is to re-shape the floor to a lesser slope toward the (now raised) drain opening. The methods were described by others already.
As for an in-floor heating system, sure. Take out the slab, dig out a few extra inches, put insulation in, then pour a new slab with the heating tubing/wiring in it.
DG/Builder
You don't want to use self leveling cement to fill in 4 inches, and you can't use it if you need slope for a drain.
If you want to "level-up" the floor and build in a slight slope for a drain you should use cemet-based "mud," just as they do for shower pans. Get some helpers to carry bags of premixed sand/mud mix or make your own using sand and cement. You can mix it in your basement and adjust for flat/level/slope using screeds.
See the two pics below -- one using mud mix to level a basement floor, and then using self-leveling cement on the end to fill in the last 1/2 inch o depth, which is too thin for mud mix.
You can bury heating wires or hydronic tubes.
EDIT: sorry, Prospero won't let me upload photos now...
Billy
Edited 2/16/2006 12:24 am ET by Billy
Edited 2/16/2006 12:29 am ET by Billy
thanks for the help,others suggested "mud" but I was not sure exactly what they meant
Mud is slang for concrete. You can probably get a small trailer concrete pumper to place the "mud". Call a concrete guy and ask him,its not the kind of job you want to experiment on.
In this context mud is not slang for concrete. Mud is mixed very dry and it will not slump. Most (but not all) concrete is very wet and will tend to seek its own level before it starts to cure.
See this article about building a shower pre-slope using mud. The same basic technique can be used for leveling a floor. If the mud is going over existing concrete, then a slurry of thinset should be used to bond the mud to the concrete:
http://www.ontariotile.com/preslope.html
Billy
Great Link.
Thanks
Thanks for the clarity,slang or jargon is the hardest thing to deal with at my level of skills
I first put down 6 mil plastic to creat a vapor barrier and then put down pt sleepers shimming or adjusting them to get a level floor and then screw these donw with tapcon concrete screws and then plywood over the sleepers. I havent used the dricore system yet until it come down in price but you still have to level the floor with self leveling compound.
Thanks for the help,this was my original plan as I am more at ease with wood and this method than with the other ideas. I forgot to mention that there is quite alot of residue left over from a very old tile job and I was worried about anything sticking properly. I know I got advice about removal products but I am very uncomfortable with unknown products in a residential setting. You know what I mean,you can wear an organic vapour mask but how do you completely ventilate a closed in basement area to make it safe for the home owner.
See the two pictures below -- one using mud mix and a metal screed to level a basement floor, and the other photo using self-leveling cement at one end of the floor to fill in the last 1/2 inch of depth, which is too thin for mud mix.
Billy
Thanks for taking the time to help,I need all I can get with this project. Look for more problems as I continue to work on this renovation.