Friends,
Thank you for all of the responses, your advice is well taken.
We formerly posted under basement framing, we meant to write basement forming. We are now considering pouring basement slab first and then the walls. The floor may provide us with additional options to secure our braces (basement walls forming). Suggestions?
Replies
Do you even know what a hammer is????
Thanks for the advice
Doing it that way is not the usual route to say the least.
Footings, then walls, then slab , then framing and floor diaphragm.
Or Footing, walls , framing and floor diaphragm, build house and then pour slab somewhere along the way .
Backfill only after the floor above the basement is built and sheathed with subflooring. Slab also poured before backfilling is advisable.
A word of WARNING, not knowing what you are doing with high wall pours or having some one who is working onsite who does gives you a large chance of having the forms break and you Will be pouring that slab first.
This is not an a place for a beginner to start their career being in charge.
bridgedog , while curt, is trying to keep you out of trouble. You question indicated a real lack of knowledge and highwall concrete can teach you some very expensive lessons both financially and physically in a heartbeat.
I know the poster is a rookie and it seems that I was just being a @$#! head. I realize people come here for advise and do not deserve to be treated poorly for lack of knowledge. On the other hand in Juans' other post on the same subject (basement framing) I clearly stated the danger of attempting this without proper training and advised him to hire it out. I was being blunt to make a point, and not trying to be little him.
I understood . I wasn't criticizing you at all. Some times curt or blunt is what is needed. First high wall I ever worked on let go in the middle of an 8'6" wall that was 40' long. Contractor had more than a few years experience too. We did pour that slab first . Still looks like hell 30 years later.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I have been on some real nail biters. The last big pour I was in charge of was 40' high 4' wide and 200' long with one side being a dead pour. I was a nervous wreak. Nothing happened thank GOD.
I actually saw taper ties get the threads stripped right off in another big pour. BANG and that was it, the wall unzipped like a coat. Three guys badly injured, and you can only imagine the mess (wrong word) carnage (right word) that was left in the aftermath.
One sound I will never forget is that sound of snap ties popping and whalers breaking. Damn ties sounded like an automatic rifle being fired off as the wall forms came apart. I have never personally tackled anything the size of what you have, been the site super on some big ones but left the pour to those who that for a living.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
It's not the size of your tie it's how you use it. LOL
I have seen more blowouts on smaller pours. Guys just don't respect em. On the big ones the guys are more on edge and get jumpy at every creek and pop. On the small ones they tend let their guard down. Ah that'll hold, there's not that much pressure. BANG POP oh @#%$
Edited 2/14/2008 3:15 am ET by Bridge_Dog
Just curious as to what you were pouring that was that big (40x4x200). Thanks
Bridge abutment for the Hoover Dam Bypass.
And In the big picture I also like a little SMILE.
So me thinks a little fun is good.
Juan,
I apoligize for my rude remark to you. Dovetail is correct, you should not attempt this. Concrete can be a VERY DANGEROUS business. Not only can this turn into a costly mistake, but you are putting yourself and the rest of the people working with you in harms way. It's just not the right task to have a learning curve.
Edited 2/14/2008 2:49 am ET by Bridge_Dog
Juan,
I agree with the other guys about the high risks for any novice who tries to form and pour walls. But there is a way for you can learn what you need to know and do most of the work yourself, without going to work in the trade first.
Insulated Concrete Forms, ICFs, have become very popular in the last few years with professional builders and first timers too. Many of the companies who make them offer instruction and supervision.
ICFs have many advantages. Being very easy to work with is one of them.
I suggest that you use the "Advanced Search" feature (above the left column of topic headings) to look for threads on ICFs. There are lots of them to read.
You can also do a web search for Insulated Concrete Forms. That should bring up links to web sites for many manufacturers of ICFs.
The get you started, here's a link to one respected company with years of experience. http://www.arxxwalls.com
OK, I'll disagree. My first house was the concrete one I'm living in. I'd never done any concrete work, nor had the 2 guys who helped me form it.
Fast, we weren't. But I read everything I could find about forming walls and placing concrete. Certainly not everything went exactly right, but no catastrophes either. My walls are up to 14" thick, nearly 16' tall, and support 200 tons of roof. There's a lot of rebar here.
Much more importantly, I didn't have BT available to come to ask questions. I relied on local advice, much of which was wrong. The concrete salesman actually told me to never ever vibrate. Fortunately I did a lot of reading first, particularly everything I could get from the American Concrete Institute whose only interest is everyone having a good concrete experience. Their booklet "Cast-in-Place Walls" is a good one. "Construction Manual: Concrete & Formwork" is another, ISBN 0-910460-03-5.
These books are from 1984 and 1983. Study them, use a little common sense, and concrete is very DIY-friendly. For those unwilling to do conventional forming, I recommend ICFs. Not in my future for my houses, but a decent compromise for most. Where the insulation best goes is old history here, that I'll avoid.
Finishing flatwork is an art. Not one I'm accomplished in. But the basic structure is very simple. Juan, I missed your other thread and have no idea what you're trying to do, but I hope you understand the function of footings. Otherwise, start reading.
Here's a sample of my first try.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 2/14/2008 9:04 am ET by VaTom
Thank you for the info. As you understand, the idea is to round up data and facts about best approach possible, your contribution is well received.
Juan, you're welcome.
If you want to read more about what I went through, click on my name. It'll take you to a link to a web page on the whole process. BT calls it my web page, but it was a surprise sprung on me by a guy wanting to encourage discussion of passive heating/cooling.
The only reason I did the formwork here was that I found nobody locally who was willing. At that time, block ruled. I'd been running a cabinet shop, never worked as a carpenter. It became clear that the only way I was going to get what I wanted was to do it.
Had so much fun, here're the bottom 2 floors of an outbuilding. Now has a 2 story post&beam sitting on top of it.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
How deep are those footings?
Deep, tall or deep, buried?
Tall is 12-14", depending on which wall. Buried is 6" to 15'. No frost depth necessary as I use a sort of frost-protected-shallow-foundation as part of my PAHS umbrella.
Here's a serious wall: PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom, Excellent reply and a good balance to mine. I should not have been quite so harsh and instead advised what you did. The Op's posts however did not lead me to that thought however. Educate yourself , and then re-educate yourself on the matter. It is possible for a determined and educated individual to do it. Emphasis on Educated!!! Then I would still hire a pro to help me out and look over my work prior to the pour.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
How many ft. vertically at a time did you pour with those 16' walls?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
As a novice with zero experience, we set the plywood horizontal. Even after my reading, I'd heard so much about blowouts that I was fearful. So for my walls, we set the forms 4 times. Fewer sheets, but that's about the only advantage.
Never did that again.
Now I know that there's plenty of strength (without strongbacks, just walers) to go 8'/lift. I pour stiff, follow the engineer's advice. And I'm the only one on the vibrator. Not overly experienced yet, but with 2 concrete houses, that outbuilding, and a thousand feet of retaining wall, I'm no longer fearful. Bought a crane to lift concrete buckets. After 4 experiences, I hate pumping.
Still have my books for calculating form pressure. If I had any reason to be forming unusual walls, out come the books.
My concrete interest actually is headed the other direction, to thinshell. Not the Monolithic method Cloud favors.
Unsure when it's going to happen, but there's earth-forming in my future. I've got a guy in San Jose, another in Oregon who are very interested. Hypar? I now know where to get the engineering. Love Felix Candela's work. Burying it solves the common problems they had. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"Bought a crane to lift concrete buckets. After 4 experiences, I hate pumping"Can you elaborate? We will soon be doing our first ICFs and concrete pumpers are everywhere here. I'm sure I would have a huge uphill to do anything other than a pumper.Also, can you explain your thought process when vibrating? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Pretty sure you won't be sticking a tickler in your ICFs. <G>
Mostly I don't think while vibrating. Ommmm..... The pattern is based on head size. Larger head, larger area of influence. Need to consult your literature. Obviously, when you get to the volume of rebar I'm using, a large head doesn't fit. Over-vibration is the bally-hooed caution. If you read the trade literature, it just about never happens. While under-vibration is common.
This is where I part company with those who recommend getting pro advice. It's only as good as the pro. I'd rather read the trade literature. Got lots of wrong pro advice when I started.
ICFs and pumps are a natural fit. Smaller stone in the mix will help.
My problem with pumps, and I've been assured here repeatedly that it shouldn't happen, is resultant voids. Last time, the pour (pump) was supervised by the guy heading up the large pump company for the whole state. Been in the business forever, he promised me I'd get walls at least as smooth as unpumped.
He was wrong. Supervised everything, including my vibrating.
Matter of fact, my client (who'd insisted on pumping) apologized after his desk-jockey eyes easily saw the difference. I'd wanted to leave a corner off the house, park my not-quite-large-enough crane inside and pour everything but the corner. Move it outside and pour the corner. Would've saved $1500.
Large windows are normal for me, if pumping can fill under them I have yet to see it. Gravity pours do.
Pumping costs much more, gives an inferior product. What's to like? Well, that's my minority opinion. From what I hear here, minority of 1, but you asked.
ICFs can be worse. You don't strip them, have no idea of voids unless they're so big you can see daylight. Which happens. I like vibrators, don't feel comfortable with external vibration. But I don't have to, as I prefer wood forming. Or metal, if I had any volume.
You're doing what I'd do in your situation.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Your answer was clear as mud. Pardon the pun.Why does bucketing the mud solve the problem? What is the problem? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I really don't know. My guess is that all the pumps I've encountered are too large for my sites. The boom ends up too high, leaving the mud falling too far and creating separation of the solids.
The head pump guy told me this isn't so. But something happened to cause the voids he left me with. Clearly, the trucks I've had could have been considerably farther from the walls (with less boom elevation), if I'd had the room.
You know the max recommended gravity fall? 5 feet. Everybody, including me, does 8' with no apparent ill effect, but without pumping I don't have that 30+'.
Otherwise, your guess is as good as anybody's. You asked why I didn't like pumping. I get voids. Always. If I ever didn't, pretty sure I'd know what the difference was.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom, the height of the pump does not matter. I have poured walls with concrete falling close to 400' with absolutely no voids. You are correct about the 5' rule, but rule applies only after it leaves the hose. The concrete in the hose is consolidated and has no chance of separation.
I am real curious as to what could have caused the voids while using a pump. Maybe the hose was to big??? Usually a reducer is used for smaller pours. Did the pump operator use one? Maybe is was the rate of pour. Mud coming out of the hose too fast will cause the same problems as dropping mud past 5'.
Overvibration can cause a problem, although not very common. Overvibration causes air bubbles (bug holes) to surface on the face. In heavy/highway construction inspectors give a bug hole tolerance the size of a nickel. I was curious why, so I asked one of the engineers. I was told that bug holes can be a starting point for a crack. Not really a structural problem, but it can turn into one. Basically the crack is a point for water to enter and eventually rot the steel, or in freeze thaw cycles the water infiltration can cause spalling. In residential this is not an issue because most concrete is not exposed. Overvibration is definetly a problem if forms are underbuilt, as it causes more head pressure on the forms,and may cause a blow out.
BTW kudos on the structure looks great.
Thanks for the compliment. Concrete's a fluid, might as well have fun. Design was as a future furniture shop, impress the clients. There're lots of flaws, but nothing major. I learned a lot. Had some frightening moments, where you're right, experience would've been very helpful.
I rented an all-terrain forklift to lift the bucket for my top pour (having been told that pumping cost a couple thousand- obviously I hadn't called a pump company). I'd never driven one. Practicing before the mud showed up, I got into some fill and tipped it over, 2 wheels in the air. I bailed, the forks hung up on a large tree. Which now has scars up 40'. Fortunately, the readymix driver had a good idea on how to right the forklift. Never steered quite where I expected, but I figured that was my inexperience. Tilting cab/forks was great.
The pour continued, even though we also discovered that the tires had a steady leak. Again, readymix truck to the rescue. Good thing they've got air. Very long day. On the way down my 1/2 mile driveway I noticed the azz of the forklift wasn't following the front. ????
The delivery driver had shown me 2wd, 4wd, and crab (whatever that is). Told him to just leave it in 4wd. The lever was on 4wd. On the way down I stopped, shifted to crab and back to 4wd. Something moved, and the rear wheels started following the front ones for the first time that day. Steering was suddenly predictable!
What was that caution about experience? <VBG>
A reducer was used on at least the last pumping. I'd been warned about that. Previous pumpings, I don't know. Didn't know to ask.
I'm not aware if the mud was pumped too fast, the guy in charge didn't think so. It was his employee running the pump. Then they swapped jobs and the driver became the tube monkey, flow increased. The manager had seen what his pumper had done on our first lift, promised I wouldn't see it again. Wrong.
Thanks for clarifying hose fall. As I mentioned to Jim, I don't know why I get voids and nobody else seems to. Bad karma? Not a structural problem, as you know. But it's irritating as hell to spend the extra money and get worse-looking concrete. Crane purchase made perfect sense to me. Haven't found a bucket I wanted to buy yet, but I can rent one for $25 from one of the large contractors here. Crane came with elephant noses.
Under-building forms clearly can be a major problem, not one I take lightly. I mentioned a blow-out on my first pour, from missing nails. I'm not cheap with snapties. But I also once employed a guy with far more experience than I have, who assured me that my forms would never hold, needed more 2x4s. That was one area where I had experience he didn't. He didn't last long.
You're also correct that reading the trade literature doesn't prepare you for everything, but it's far better than nothing. And, more importantly, helped me avoid following bad advice from some of the pros I encountered.
I've known of a number of smallish DIY pours here that had no significant problems or regrets. Still strikes me as DIY-friendly. Maybe our readymix drivers are better? There is a direct correlation between the driver's attitude/skill and ease of placement. I never have an easy site.
Appreciate your sharing the bug hole info.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
You might want to check out a former schoolmate of mine in San Francisco. David Arkin is an architect that has done straw bale and rammed earth construction. A house he designed appeared in FH last year.http://www.arkintilt.com
Thanks, I'll look later.
Structural strawbale? Otherwise it strikes me as just expensive insulation with post&beam. Certainly inappropriate for PAHS. I've got a 200 ton roof, and will likely never build one that light again.
If you're interested in alternative architecture, there are several YahooGroups. I subscribe to a few. Have learned a lot.
Rammed earth is interesting, but what fascinates me are tire bales. Unfortunately no baler anywhere near here. I'm not buying one, much as I like machinery.
An internet acquaintance once opined "walls are the easy part, just pile up pretty much anything. It's the roof that gets interesting".PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom,
What you and others should understand is that you are a very exceptional DIYer. You're a person who had the academic background, intelligence, ingenuity, time and other resources required to make a success of a large and complex building project.
In addition, as an accomplished custom furniture builder you approached your first home with a base of experience and respect that few other DIYers ever have.
Your enthusiasm was tempered by previous experience as a craftman so your approach was more reflective and patient than can be expected of most novices.
I've been a concrete form carpenter on numerous large government jobs over thirty-plus years. In my judgement, most DIYers are much better off using ICFs than trying to build forms. Both the product and the support from the manufacturer make it much more likely that the outcome will be as anticipated.
I'm so convinced of the value of ICFs that I'm planning to use them exclusively in my next home.
I understood you were an ICF fan. And a poor candidate for PAHS. That's fine. Lots of ways to build a good house. I mentioned that I recommend ICFs as a second choice to conventional forming. Second, due not to the forming, due to the product. Insulation is best on the outside of the mass. Oak Ridge Labs confirmed that.
Regarding my "exceptional" capabilities, I'm unconvinced. Attitude is the important thing. I did a lot of studying before I bought plywood. Then it was only as a last resort, after failing to find anyone to cast my walls. I'd heard all the gloom and doom y'all were directing at Juan. It's common wisdom.
Pretty sure you'd agree that every enterprise consists of a succession of single steps. Rarely is one of those steps so complex that a reasonably coordinated, motivated DIYer would encounter unsurpassable difficulty. You're correct, patience is definitely required.
Commercial work sometimes has forming that I've never tried, nor particularly want to. But this thread's about residential. Likely Juan needs no more than 8" walls. Incredibly simple with plywood and snapties if that's his preference.
Or ICFs, as you point out. First time I recommended them here, the owner/builder had the ICF supplier volunteer to help out (supervise) with the pour. You won't get that from the lumber yard supplying the plywood. <G>
Against my better judgement, I helped a friend cast an outbuilding with 6" walls, minimal rebar. Backfilled 7' (of 8). It worked. Two of us spent 1 short day doing the forming.
I don't know how little one can get away with. Only what engineers generally call for, and what's worked for me. I've also seen horrendous things with ICFs, when the GC didn't pay attention to the directions. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
While I'm fascinated by PAHS, my decision to use ICFs on my next home has a lot to do with how marketable the house will be in a few years. My decision also included how well a PAHS might suit the property. ICFs give me more design options.
I agree about the insulation being more effective on the outside of an ICF wall. One of the older manufacturers, originating in Germany I believe, is http://www.quadlock.com. Their foam is denser than others and they offer two thicknesses.
One thing I've learned about PAHS that I'd like to incorporate with ICFs is the "umbrella". Do you think that would be helpful?
One last gasp on the subject of DIY concrete walls...I've seen a number of unsuccessful efforts with very costly errors and some danger to the participants when novices try it. I have also seen a couple of very studious guys, like you, do good work.
The one thing that they all have in common is wishing they'd contracted the work out.
BTW, http://www.arxxwalls.com is one of the manufacturers which offers full support to all their first time builders.
I was thinking arxx was blue max, but they didn't mention it so I must be mistaken. Blue max was my intro to ICFs- I was fascinated. Arxx might be what my friend used, where the supplier showed up to help him pour. And that was after guiding him all the way through the preparation.
Which is only good business when you think about it. You want every sale of the product to have a happy outcome. Like the pumper manager driving an hour and a half to show me how it should be done. He didn't get a happy customer, but he did the correct thing. Which I greatly appreciated.
An umbrella can be adapted to almost anything. AGS changed the name to "cape" but it's the same. I once used it on a conventional basement. Well worth the effort, the HO discovered later after comparing performance with a neighbor. Dry and warmer. But not ICFs, which would hurt the thermal performance. Almost forgot about that one, my sole conventional foundation pour.
Resale, I have great sympathy for. My next (considerably more expensive) house will be plumbed for conventional heating/cooling, easy retrofit. I don't want Mike Smith's experience with a problem sale.
But PAHS can look like just about anything you can imagine, just needs lots of mass. I think we still have in the pipeline a PAHS in the style of Frank Gehry's Santa Monica house.
PAHS isn't about architecture. Hait's house was a dome, which I had no problem ignoring. Mine looks like a bent warehouse. <G>
I've had poor experience with "hiring it out". My floor's a mess, from the "best finisher in the business". The only company wanting to cast my walls was/is the largest foundation contractor here. For my buried wall, they offered a standard 2' wide footing, no connection between wall and footing, not even a keyway. The wall was to have 2- #4's horizontal, nothing vertical. Scared me. That's when I hired the engineer. You saw the drawing. With 200 tons over my head, I'm not gambling.
Got back to the foundation folks with my engineering. At the time, $1500 extra in rebar. They wanted $8500 to tie it, said it took a looong time to tie rebar. I didn't know. But you do, and I do now. Might take me 2 days by myself, with some bending. I didn't have the extra $8500, which turned out far the best for me.
Clearly, if I'd had poor results I'd also be saying it's better to hire it out. The difference is that I took the (study) time to ensure I didn't, creating a whole new world of opportunity for me. That's Juan's potential, particularly starting with a simple project.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom, Doesn't sound as if your local foundation guys have much of a clue if they were offering a 2' wide footing and so little bar for your building. One thing I will mention , You took a baby step in doing the first pour at 4' tall. Good move, sharp learning curve without an excess amount of height to brace off. Juan would be well advised to try some small walls before he tries a full basement pour if he hasn't done any of this before. As you said, it is about the study of the issue and the learning. I once saw an 8' pour tip over. Not a blow out. It simply tipped and fell. Forms erected and braced in freezing weather, stakes driven into frozen ground. Thaw arrived 2 days before the pour and the stakes didn't hold and over the forms went. Once they start there is no stopping it. Just one of those things that wasn't thought about. How do you control the bucket when you pour using it? how many hands needed for a pour that way?
I have never done a crane /bucket pour. When I started doing high wall it was in a rural area of Oregon in the early seventies and cranes and pumps were unheard of for residential work. Most of the pours were daylight basement so we would have the excavator build a ramp for the front discharge trucks and chute it into the forms, guys stood atop the forms and paddled the mud along using 2x3 sticks.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I once saw an 8' pour tip over. Not a blow out.
That wasn't my job, so I found it funny. This happens here with ICFs, installer obviously not following the directions. In that respect, a form is a form. Why they'd think ICFs different, I have no idea.
Cranes, and until recently pumps, are unheard of for residential work here (other than setting trusses). One advantage to knowing little is that you have no preconceived ideas on how it's done. Can concentrate on what will work. I've had guys working with me who had to unlearn some of their accumulated knowledge.
Few individuals buy a crane. Mine's a '50's Linkbelt, cost less than 2 pumpings.
From the excavator all through to the building inspector, everybody says to me "what the ...". You build what you can. Commercial construction that I borrowed really is simple. When I do post&beam, it looks like chair construction. I like dovetails, extremely strong.
Buckets have a closure on the bottom, operable by one guy. I like 2 guys on the wall, redundancy. A crew of 3 is my bare minimum, I prefer more. I've seen front discharge, but never around here.
My sites are wooded, minimum access. Generally a PITA. Suits me. Only once I've poured where the truck could access all sides, that standard basement. Owner wanted a yard, for some reason.
I'd agree about the advisability of starting with a short pour. It's incredibly simple to move the forms up for the next lift. Utilizes the existing top row of snapties to hold the bottom of the form. We do it one guy on the wall, one to throw him the plywood. Then the bottom guy wedges the plywood on the snapties. It's quick, whether moving up 4' or 8'.
Now that curved forming was something else. I made a basic error, not thinking about differing radii between the inside and outside form. Started in one corner on the second side: Wrong. Much easier to assemble if the ply holes line up.
I also once had a guy use 3 different lengths of snapties in one 30' wall (8", 10", and 12"). Still don't know how he managed to button it up. Amazingly, he never noticed. I learned that, with him, I had to lay out all the material. Not let him get it from storage.
This was a little tricky, only 1 snaptie available to hang the first sheet of plywood from. My guys didn't believe it, but it worked. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
""My sites are wooded, minimum access. Generally a PITA. Suits me."" yep. Same as here in the day. I won't even mention OHSA and safe working conditions and that pic ;-) I was fortunate. for some reason the local supplier here got into front discharge, 6 wheel drive trucks very early. A good driver can do wonders with one.
A bad or careless driver transversing a side slope can create an interesting sight.
"Jack and Jill went up the hill, Jack came tumbling down again."
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Va Tom,
Wow you bought an operating inspected crane for $1000? That is so impressive.. The cheapest used crane with an inspection sticker I've ever seen in my 17 years in the industry sold for a little over $40,000. (and that only had a 55 foot boom..) Oh sure occasional an industrail crane like a Drott or a Broderson will sell for less but most of those have such small capacities/ booms you couldn't use them in construction..
I paid only $500 each for the pumping truck on both of my pours.
Plus I did something that to my knowledge simply isn't done.. My last pour I poured a 11&1/2 foot radius footings, wall, and floor all at one time..(using cut up ICF's no less!) took me less than an hour to do I had three people there plus the pump operator and the cement delivery guy. (for a grand total of 5 counting myself) during the pour the hose operator ran the hose, The second guy ran the stinger and I supervised.
the pump operator stood right by my side and pumped at the speed I directed him to and couldn't believe that a totally unbraced wall was as strong and safe as it was.. (Please ask me for details)
Edited 2/15/2008 12:31 pm ET by frenchy
"For my buried wall, they offered a standard 2' wide footing, no connection between wall and footing, not even a keyway. The wall was to have 2- #4's horizontal, nothing vertical."
Hard to imagine that the person who proposed that was anything more than a salesman, maybe a relative, and new at that. Yeah, that would've been a disaster...fur shure.
On the adaptability of the "cape"; what do think of building an asphalt driveway as a collector? My question is mainly about making the driveway and walks the beneficiary of the collected heat, to melt snow and ice in the winter.
I knew a clever old guy who, back about fifty years ago, looped some galvanized pipe from his garage, a few inches underground, up one tire track of his rather short driveway and back into the garage. He plumbed the pipe to a small tank which rested on top of a woodstove, then installed an electric oil pump from an old furnace. If I remember correctly he put used motor oil in the system. He bragged more about how little he'd spent on the system than how well it worked.
So any time there was snow or ice he'd go out and fire up the woodstove, turn on the pump and go back in the house for another cup of coffee. When he came back out his garage/workshop and truck would be warm and his driveway would be clear.
I've always loved the ingenuity of that simple system and have planned to do something of the kind to keep the area immediately in front of the garage free of ice and snow...whenever I get a garage/workshop built.
The main idea is to be able to start the truck/car in motion on a surface with enough traction to gain some momentum before starting up a slope to the road. Also significant in getting the vehicles stopped on their return...before encountering fixed objects.
Now that you've shown us how well PAHS works, I can conceive of a fluid system where a large mass, under and adjacent to my driveway, could be insulated and heated during the summer and used to keep the driveway clear in winter. I can also imagine how such a system might provide heat for any kind of structure.
Am I getting carried away? Putting carts before horses?
Hard to imagine that the person who proposed that was anything more than a salesman, maybe a relative, and new at that
Actually, the guy ran the company and still does. Owns it, far as I know. They do a lot of work here, have specialized trucks with cranes to set and retrieve crates of metal forms without the driver ever leaving the cab. Impresive operation, if unable to manage (or recognize) out-of-the-ordinary requirements.
Your proposed driveway will both soak up heat and re-radiate it. Will you have more loss or gain? Heated drives/walks aren't new, as you mention with the old guy. I'd be thinking active solar, rather than waste motor oil, or waste veggie oil, or wood.
If you find yourself with a surplus of firewood (I do), that gets more attractive as hauling is short. Even so, I'm installing an active solar system in our next house for pool heating. I looked at the numbers. Recycled solar hardware in my case, 600 gallon tank.
Now for your driveway, summer heating and annual storage, ala AGS makes a lot of sense. You get more complexity, but it'll work if designed well. Good luck getting any numbers out of Don Stephens without becoming a client, and maybe even then. But I think you can make some good guesses based on insolation/heat loss in your locale. The rest is storage, how much you need.
You're on a good track, if you choose to pursue it.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"Now for your driveway, summer heating and annual storage, ala AGS makes a lot of sense. You get more complexity, but it'll work if designed well. I think you can make some good guesses based on insulation/heat loss in your locale. The rest is storage, how much you need."
Thanks Tom, I think that idea is simple enough to have merit, particularly in this case where the driveway will be built on a lot of fill. That makes it fairly easy to install an experimental sytem near the garage and home.
Assuming untreated water in the system, any thoughts on what kind of pipe to use for longevity?
On the subject of active solar for your pool water, I fooled around with a 100' roll of inch and a half poly pipe on a couple of occasions, back when I was installing vinyl liner in-ground pools. Just laid it in a sunny place on the southern slope next to the pool and circulated the pool water through it, using an old pool pump. It was surprisingly effective, enough so that I could easily imagine building something larger to capture heat and extend the swimming season for a couple extra months.
In the case of an indoor pool at your latitude, I have no doubt that you can build an active system which will maintain the desired temperature. I'll be interested to hear how that idea proceeds.
Edited 2/16/2008 8:38 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Assuming untreated water in the system, any thoughts on what kind of pipe to use for longevity?
Not really. Depending on your design operating temp, I'd presume some kind of "plastic". You're gonna get movement.
I've got 480 sq ft of copper core collector waiting for installation, to feed a 600 gallon tank. My calcs show no problem with heating capacity. I've also got a recycled wood-fired boiler to stick in the utility room, just in case. Not expecting to use it.
And another one I dragged home that turned out to be much too large if you have any interest. Used to be backup to the solar system, which heated 7 apartments. It'd sure heat your driveway. I scrounge, sometimes end up with interesting material.
Space heating obviously isn't much concern. The pool's gonna make maintaining winter house humidity simple. There's considerable local interest to see how it comes out, and if I can build a substantial pool as cheaply as I think I can. The tile's already here @ .25/ft. Vinyl liner's not something you want with an expensive house here. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Thanks for the offer of the big stove. It sounds too grand for my humble needs but who knows? I'm an old scounger too. Sitting on a swivel chair right now that I saw in the alley, looking near new. Turned out to need a minor adjustment. I'll keep that stove in mind for after I get back to N.Y. State.
I wouldn't necessarily suggest a vinyl liner for your pool but they do make maintenance easier.
Assuming that you're using concrete for the pool floor and walls, I've got one bit of experience to share.
I did form work one summer on large concrete tanks for a new sewage treatment plant. Next to the keyway was placed a thick piece of vinyl or neoprene, about 1/2"X8", made specifically for the purpose of sealing the joint between the floor and the wall.
Stove isn't grand. It is big and cheap. You certainly wouldn't want to haul it any farther than NY. Not F150 applicable. Takes 4' logs.
My understanding is that a vinyl liner will last just about forever inside. But it's still what all cheap pools get. Pretty sure I'm getting tile for no extra cost. When I learned what people typically pay for tile pools here, the wheels started turning. I've got 2 potentials lined up. But first, mine.
Thanks, I know a little about waterstops. What I chose was bentonite. Comes in ropes for that application. Costs less than vinyl and much easier to install.
Did I mention I read a lot? Bentonite's real interesting stuff. And finally about the only thing used here to seal water wells. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom, With the idea of using the plumbing in the asphalt as a collector as well as for radiant heat, I wonder how I might find out what the internal temperature of asphalt is on a sunny summer day? Say at two-three inches below the surface.
Poke a hole, insert thermometer?
You can also calculate insolation for the location. Then make a guess on efficiency. Sunlight's been pretty well documented as to heat potential.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Poke a hole, insert thermometer?
Poking holes in hypothetical objects and taking their temperature is the realm of academics and other delusional people. ;-) Though I suppose I could try your suggestion here in SoCal, I wouldn't know whether or not the results would have any meaning under other conditions.
I've looked into the subject of asphalt composition far enough to know that there are many variants so, you being widely read on many subjects, I thought you might point me in a more scientific direction.
Regarding the longevity of vinyl liners in swimming pools; I did a number of liner replacements on older in-ground pools. Those liners which had been a good fit to begin with; snug against the wall above the water line and not stretched more than a few percent to fit the hopper shape created by the installer...those liners lasted many years, ten or more. Of course it made a difference that the liner material was high quality and very uniform.
I've also seen sun damage to liners which didn't fit snugly and/or had been stretched too much.
Re: indoor use of vinyl liners...I'd assume that a well fit liner which never saw sunlight would last indefinitely. A vinyl liner might be a good alternative for some of your potential clients.
BTW, I'd plan for several low voltage underwater lights.
Asphalt I know little about, other than as grindings it makes a fanstastic driveway. I'm planning for a couple hundred tons here when it warms up. If insolation there is anywhere close to what you'll get in NY, you can compare the heat rise in the asphalt reasonably. Doesn't take much of a hole. Pour a little oil on it after and you can make it disappear.
If you're trying to be very precise in your planning, you're going to need calculations. I use "Other Homes and Garbage", 1975, ISBN 0-87156-141-7. Normally lots of used copies around, cheap.
The pool lights I bought aren't low voltage. Does it matter? These have boxes to be cast into the walls. BTW, I traded a pool infill for all the hardware I wanted from there, including a 1 yr old pump and diatomaceous filter. Most of the fill was the concrete apron, 1/2 hr with the crawler.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
At this point I making assumptions about collecting solar energy (heat) from asphalt during sunny, warm weather and transfering it, via liquid running in pipes, to a large subsurface thermal mass, protected by insulation and a "cape".
I believe my assumptions should work to melt snow and ice on the driveway during a relatively few hours each winter because; A. what I've read about how PAHS works to keep homes at a comfortable temperature for human habitation and B. the heating requirements for the radiant driveway are only that the temperature rise high enough to melt snow or ice. Fifty degrees Farenheit would probably do the job fairly rapidly.
Therefore it seems pretty evident to me that this active solar system should work, not only for the radiant driveway idea but to provide stored heat for home use as well. In any event, as simple as the idea is, I'd be happy if it only served to keep the first fifty feet of the driveway clean.
Re: underwater pool lights. I've only installed the housings and lamps for low voltage units. I remember that they had trasformers in-line to keep the voltage at, I believe, twelve volts.
http://apsp.org/ is the main source of information for industry standards. Used to be called the NSPI.
With any system, the devil's in the details.
You noticed my selection. Active liquid solar to a 600 gallon tank. Well established concept, pretty straightforward. I also salvaged 4 liquid/liquid exchangers and a lifetime supply of pumps.
AGS takes hot air from wherever (often attic) and uses it to heat a mass, for later retrieval. Lots of those type systems around that didn't work. Far as I know, Don never tells non-clients how his designs work. I'm not totally convinced that he knows, particularly as he's generally ignorant of climatic performance differences.
Thanks for the link. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I'll certainly research the idea further, thanks. It may well be unworkable. Seems like something that should have been tried by now and gotten some ink if it was successful.
re: underwater pool lights again. I just recalled that the ones I installed were "wet". The housing filled with water. The electrician made up a conduit to attach to the housing and carry the low voltage line. The conduit was bent so that the pool water was kept from rising above it's end and running out. I don't remember any other details except that the lights were pretty expensive.
Other than a perpetual motion machine, about any system can work. Just a matter of working out the details. And a decision that you want to make the effort.
I'm lazy.
I didn't spend much on my pool lights. Bought them, cheaper than Grainger's, from the pool guy who was advising me. Now that I think about it, the only new hardware the pool's getting.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Pertaining to your advice to Juan, and your experience with your project. You are the exception to the rule. Most of us who posted to him have plenty of experience in concrete. You are right on about attitude and baby steps are a quality of success. BUT the doom and gloom stories were told for a reason. It only takes one mistake or oversight and BOOM you have a real mess. If you had asked me, I would have told you the same thing. Yes, I would have been wrong and I maybe wrong in Juans' case. That said, it does not matter how many books someone reads, failure to properly apply that knowledge can result in a very costly experiment. Its one thing to try this on your own house with your own money. It's a whole different story to do this with someone else's.
What separates a pro from a Dyer is not the ability to build, but the ability to react. Books tell us all how to do it right, what they don't tell us is what to do when things go wrong. Only experience can tell us that.
Edited 2/15/2008 1:12 am ET by Bridge_Dog
OK - I'm reading between the lines here. Besides starting out as an exceptional DIYer you obviously had some major coin to back it up. Also I'm guessing that your motivation was not necessarily to save money, more just that you wanted to build something different. A little different from someone who gets the words 'framing' and 'forming' mixed up...
LMAO.... Not exactly.
You've seen that web page on our place? It starts out with: His philosophy is simple: "a house should keep you dry, warm in the winter, cool in the summer, have no exterior maintenance, be cheap to build, and cost nothing to operate."
This place qualifies. I'm unaware of a cheaper house to build. Certainly not one that I can build. This is common commercial construction. Why do you suppose it's common? Cheap. Obviously the PAHS part raised the cost for carrying the earth load, but my roof is likely cheaper than anything you build. Certainly, if you consider life span cost. Even the copper sheathing was cheap at the time.
Regarding the shape... We were slow doing the formwork, gave me lots of time to consider options. I dislike straight lines, boxes. My labor cost was low enough to let me have fun. The original plan was to sell some of the land, build what we really wanted to live in, and use this place as my furniture shop.
Concrete, rebar, barjoists totalled $14k. Notice the windows and doors are site-built. Practically everything inside came from auctions, or I built it. A not-small amount of owner labor here. No subs after the floor pour.
How anybody can build cheap furniture and make a living, I have no idea. My throwaway line: "I'm not expensive, but I make things that are". I've been referral-only for decades, never had a business phone. A potential client, already knowing more or less what I do, drives up the long impressive driveway, and walks into this place. The sale's 70% complete at that point. Then we start talking.
That plan's changed, but you get the drift.
Too much digression already. Hope that's clearer now. Oh, about that an exceptional DIYer, here're photos of my first building here, or anywhere. It's resurrected now, but still a POS. Onduline roof. What'd I know?
I'll bet Juan could do better, and I know nothing about him.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
What the heck happened ? When I first glanced at the pic I thought I was seeing 9' of snow.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Want me to build a house for you? LMAO
Wasn't the snow. Wind. Mountaintop, we get wind.
The damn carps working for the GC I was running the cabinet shop for all wondered why my sheathingless, posts sitting on the slab, building wouldn't have racking problems. It was only braced one direction, never occured to me that the wind might catch it the other. Not one of those jerks bothered to ask. They figured "he's the cabinet maker so he knows".
Yeah, well, I might be pretty good in the shop, but ...
Sometimes we learn from failure. But that does not mean I don't recommend DIY post&beam. The next one was a mistake in other respects, but never collapsed. Well, not yet. Did not succeed in getting the cupola on top however.
Wanna come and play? We have fun sometimes, and nobody's ever gotten hurt. Got several guys around here who like to visit, try things their wives wouldn't think much of. Mine looks the other way. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
""Wanna come and play?"" LOL That would be like leaving the asylum to join the madhouse! I worked for a couple of furniture makers and wood carvers along the way as well. I posed only a few of my endeavors here. But OTOH I have sometimes thought , what the hell, sell out here, throw a bunch of tools in a newer rig and had out. Visit all the nuts across this county as I spend my last years. Figure I can still hold the end of board while someone else nails it in place.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I really didn't get exactly what you were getting at... except the part that you said that you didn't spend much.... Sounds like 1979 (guessing) dollars though... not sure how relevant that is unless it's adjusted up. I respect you and what you have produced though. OTOH, The part about building for nearly free sounds too much like frenchy... don't put yourself in that category. Thousands of hours of labor weather it was yours or ones that you paid for are worth a whole lot of $$$... BTW - How many yards of concrete you figure you have in that place?
OK... you don't want my dollar figures (from 1992). Certainly I never said I built for free, just cheap. And cheap is relative. I meant cheap compared to conventional housing. Free is a recycled cardboard box, maybe with some leaves.
I guess you also don't want my dollar figures from a few years ago when I built the client shell. It mortgage-appraised 50% higher than construction cost. The shell was not the only reason, but a good part of it. We were shocked, but that appraisal was a direct comparison to traditional construction. The appraiser (correctly) ignored all energy features, only paid attention to sq ft and details. Gave no extra credit for the copper siding/copper clad windows.
Forming crew there was me, the well-paid skill guy, and 2 totally inexperienced college kids.
But discounting all the above, leaves..... your figures. What does a walkout basement, say 2000 sq ft and 12' walls, cost? Now add in 40' barjoists and decking for a 240 ton total load roof. My last ones would cost 50% more now, coming to $12-13k plus a light crane for 1 day.
Now add a couple of good-sized doors. Then 360 sq ft of fixed windows, low e. Or less, my sq ft is counter-productive for PAHS. One minimal egress window in the bedroom, and bath while we're at it.
I've never bought trusses, but my crane guy (who sets trusses almost every day) was astounded at how little the steel cost. Remove the large earth load, and you eliminate 2/3 of the steel.
Now add a tiny air system. Mine moves 167 cfm and over-ventilates. If you want to add an air source heat pump, fine, just make sure it's the smallest one available. It'll be a fight with the HVAC guy who's looking at volume of the house. My client's is over-sized at the smallest he could get. I mentioned what he sees for elec bills.
Your complaint about unsubstantiated claims I understand. If you can't duplicate someone else's results, you have to be suspicious. But with your background, you won't have any problem pricing out what I just outlined. We all know that you can spend any amount of money finishing the inside. Obviously I'm bare bones here. My client house had finished ceilings, whirlpool spa, granite counters, the normal trappings. Easy for the appraiser to compare it to conventional construction.
I went through this exercise with Cloud, who took umbrage when I posted I'd built the cheapest underground structure I could. His claim: with his much reduced concrete, his domes must be cheaper. Not exactly. We all know labor dwarfs everything else. He requires a specialized team, often imported from out of state. My steel roof is a major part of my low cost. Takes 1 (no skill) guy a day to assemble with a Hilti (the cross-bracing bolts together, another half day), then a nominal 4" slab. Finish totally unimportant, it'll be buried. The client house wasn't even screeded.
We don't water- or damp- proof. No need. 6 mil poly is cheap. Many layers, protected by carpet scraps, provides redundancy. Insulation, there's no savings. I use a truckload. But there's no roofing to buy, or replace. No gutters. Notice I mentioned no drainage. None necessary. Final grading is, but that's true everywhere.
You think concrete's expensive? I don't. At $100/yd, my 120 yds would cost $12k. Been 3 years since I checked pricing of conventional basements here, but there was no way I could compete in that market. I'm too expensive. Completely understandable, when you look at my forming method. Way too much labor.
My point: even though my forming costs are higher than standard, my total shell cost made a very inexpensive house. You can do even better than I did. Especially if you don't DIY the concrete. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom, I may think your $$ figures are too extravagant <G> .........
I aim for under 5 cents sq ft for storage (with elec and plumbing included)...... not counting the relative $$ in time scrounging materials.
Yeah, Art I know. I'm profligate. Rez told me.
That shed was over the top. The Olds, unfortunately, wasn't. The really dumb thing was building up. I've got plenty of land. Original plan was for yet another floor up there. Then I went up to set rafters ..... What's there now is the very limit of how high I'll climb. No purchased lumber though, all sawn here. All the glass recycled.
That window wall cost 2 bucks, for 3 of 'em (auction). Cheaper than chainsaw gas to make lumber. Happened into those translucent panels and realized they were far cheaper than my then-cheap copper.
Gotta have fun, right?.
I "need" another building here, not enough tractor shed. It ain't gonna go up and will get the Oldsmobile. DW wants her lap pool first. Now that I think about it, that "need" could also be satisfied by fleet reduction.
Does anybody really need a deuce-and-a-half pair, 3 tractors, a motor grader, and 2 pull-behind graders? The crane I need. Hoping to get around to selling the well-driller this year, after a couple more bores.
But more importantly, how're you doing with the sawmill? I keep looking for a used bandmill I don't mind paying for. Seems unlikely. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
>> But discounting all the above, leaves..... your figures. What does a walkout basement, say 2000 sq ft and 12' walls, cost? << My educated SWAG would be $40k with the basement floor. >> Now add in 40' barjoists and decking for a 240 ton total load roof. My last ones would cost 50% more now, coming to $12-13k plus a light crane for 1 day. << ????
BTW - is furniture making your primary source of income?
Either your guess is way off or your formers/finishers get paid a lot more than a few hours north here. That's a price I could profit with. Doesn't take that long to plywood form, as I mentioned earlier.
Reading between your lines... we have small income, no trust fund, qualified for EIC two years ago. Didn't ask for it, the IRS insisted. Might be a program you haven't encountered- for the "working poor". I could take more commissions, choose not to. Frees up my time. Our major expense is health insurance. Well, there's also the wine.
At the risk of further annoying DonK with philosophizing, I learned a long time ago you only need to earn what you want to spend (plus a cushion). I sail on somebody else's Pearson, view the world with after-tax eyes.
Second property over is a 2300 acre farm. They're selling 100 lots, with farm ownership shares. Selling briskly, average price is $706,429. Gonna be well north of $2m with your house. We're frightened of being taxed out of the area.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
You mis-read me a bit. I really had no interest in your personal finances, but rather was just trying to figure out what you did for a living and if you were making a living doing PAHS. I just went and looked up EIC - I knew what the acronym stood for but really had no idea what it actually was. No need to respond.
Tom. PAHS question on your place. What (if anything ) did you do to mitigate heat transfer at the front edge ( exposed edge) of your roof?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I don't have any exposed edges, roof or otherwise. Everything's covered by the umbrella. Which many find confusing. Simplicity itself, actually. The thing to remember is that the umbrella insulates everything that's house mass, from ambient.
Our umbrella starts 20' behind the house, goes up the roof, through the roof retaining wall, down the outside of the exposed walls, and out under the patio (or periwinkle sideyard, or kitchen garden). Any penetrations are the major heat loss.
Exposed edges, especially concrete, connecting inside to outside would be a major error. Really no different from any house, no?
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 2/17/2008 10:03 pm ET by VaTom
Tom,
When I posted that question I was thinking about a recent pic you posted of the tall exposed wall. I don't remember the detail at the roof wall intersection along that wall. Yes, no different from any other house.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
At the risk of further annoying DonK with philosophizing,...
Hey, I heard that! But it's okay, I agree with some of your philosiphy. Example, your other comment that you "learned a long time ago you only need to earn what you want to spend", sounds pretty smart to me. The problems come around when people want to spend like demons. Some people do that today. Hopefully, they are customers. :-)
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
LMAO... And you thought I was a big dummy.... I assume you've also noticed that very few people earn so much that they can't spend it all? It's the corolary, should give pause. What's it all about, Alfie?
You catch the 60 Minutes piece about the Danes? Obviously ignored a segment of the population there (immigrants), but made a most interesting point. Certainly I'm in sympathy. I've had very wealthy clients, whom I've generally pitied.
Happiness, a fascinating concept. Oops, better stop now.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
VaTom
Isn't that 60 minutes piece reveiling? There are a surprising amount of people here at breaktime who seem to understand and get that point.. They work hard at a skill which frankly isn't the most finacially rewarding in the world and yet they are content. I can tell based on the comments they post and their attitude.
(I know,...... thread hijack alert <grin>)
Hire somebody for your poured walls. It's easier to fix framing errors and all errors (if any are encountered) that rest upon the foundation than it is to fix concrete. Problems during a CC pour occur at an alarmingly fast pace and you have a fixed amount of time to correct any problem that may occur.
Juan the builder,
A simple easy and affordable way to build a basement is with the use of ICF's
ICF's stand for Insulated Concrete Forms what they are is large foam blocks that hold concrete and form the basement walls.
No need to build or rent forms nor need to learn how to set concrete block (it's harder than it looks)
They stack like giant leggos. you place the rebar in, foam the joints and go on to the next level..
They are very DIY (do-It-Yourself) friendly. They are fully code approved and meet any and all requirements.
Most dealers have video's you can watch to learn the details plus instruction books and plenty of friendly guildance..
Just for comparison my first ICF foundation I saved over $10,000 over the absolute cheapest bid I got. and that was only on a small portion.
You can get information on them on the web I'm sure.. plus if you call your concrete supplier I'm sure he will have some to offer you as well.
For what it's worth I used reward forms and found them to be so easy that when I was bedridden My sister-in-law with absolutely no experiance whatesover in construction finished it for me.. I think I'd started the first course and maybe a little of the second in place..
You seam to have stirred up a hornets nest. These guy's know what what their talking about, and I think it would be wise to head their warnings.
That said of course you can learn to pour as you go. My thought is why start your home with an amateur Mason ( yourself)? Ask any tradesmen from the framer to the drywall er and especially the finish carpenter and they will all tell you - THE FOUNDATION MUST BE LEVELL AND STRAIGHT. Don't make every other step of your project difficult to save a few buck's.
Cheers.