My customer wants me to make a long bath countertop with some extra 3/4 x 3 1/4″ T&G brazilian cherry. Screwing it down is not an option because I will wind-up with a lot of plugs dotting the surface.
I am worried about not allowing any hint og open seams. Will toenailing, glueing the bottom, and glueing the tongue and groove itself do the trick.
Would epony or resorcinol glue be best? ANy thoughts/suggestions?
Thanks.
Replies
I wouldn't recommend doing it at all if the sink is involved.
This sort of thing has been discussed many times here before and the use of "advanced search" should help you find some of these discussions.
Here's one of them, but there are numerous others.
http://forums.prospero.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=24747.1
The discussions that I have seen generally seem to involve woods that are not necessarily all that water resistant so protection is critical to stability.
Since brazilian cherry is unusually water resistant - often used unprotected for outdoor decking, I thought that the only realy issue would be to ensure that the joints be kept tight by (chiefly) gluing.
No?
t,
It's not so much a matter of the water/rot resistance of the wood that's the critical factor in maintaining a decent looking and sanitary surface..........it's the difficulty of keeping the finish in tact where the problem usually arises. Most folks just aren't as careful about the care of things as they think that they can or will be. Any slits or dings that penetrate the surface of the finish will allow moisture to enter and that causes the finish to begin failing/peeling around the area. It's all down hill from there.
If you still intend to do this, make certain that you get a seamless fit when you glue up your stock ( you'll probably want to just kiss those t&g joints bye-bye and do a normal jointing and glue up), finish all sides equally (make certain to triple coat the cut out for the sink), and allow for wood expansion and contraction.
The epoxy approach wood be a good idea or you could use several coats of an oil based poly. Another possibility would be a catalyzed finish, but these shouldn't be built up to a thck coat as they're a more brittle finish and it could end up cracking on you when expansion or contraction takes place. Chemical spills can be trouble as well as slits, but any of these choices should provide excellent resistance to an owner whose not asleep at the wheel. None of these are going to be easy to remove at refinishing time, but the poly would likely be the easiest.
Make no promises concerning performance or longevity to your customer as much of that is going to be up to them. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Finish, heck I'm not worried about the finish - they can refresh with teak oil, oil soap, brick dust (like they did on the sailing ships), or whatever. The only things I am really worried about: 1) ensuring that the seams do not EVER open up (this would otherwise guarantee fairly unremovable crud in the seams and look like hell) and 2) limit any buckling of the finished top itself to a negligable amount.
It SOUNDS like lots of epoxy for and careful clamping of seam joints and bedding the top in epoxy gooped on 3/4 plywood and with a few judicious screws up from the bottom.
Talking about epoxy, why do you guys like West or System III over Marine Tex - I have used this to repair my surf and windsurfing boards for years.
You don't want to get epoxy the top to plywood. The top will want to move and the plywood doesn't move.
Don't forget to rip off the tounge and grove.
"Marine Tex"
AFAIK the only Marine Tex is a white/gray filled expoxy product. I really like it for embedding fittings and patching holes, but it would not be suitable for this application.
t,
My recommendenation is that your read and completlely understand two books before you proceed:
Bruce Hoadley's "Understanding Wood"
Bob Flexner's "Understanding Wood Finishing"
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
IMHO.....West is designed for building boats by laying up thin strips, so it's designed to penetrate as well as adhere. This helps keep water out of pesky places like end grain. That said, even West won't penetrate all the way through a board that's 3/4" thick. Eventually, the finish will be compromised and water will find a way in and ultimately ruin someone's day. I don't use it as a coating, but I've been using West for glue for years with no failures.
If they held a gun to my head and signed a waiver, had no kids, and were the neatest people in the world, I might cut off the T & G's and glue it up as a one pc top, goop the heck outta the sink cutout and then figure a way to fasten it down that would allow the top to move but not split............nah.
But then again, there are vanities in the rich folks house that are old dressers, with a sink cut in it..............so I guess it would work ok.
Best of luck.
__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I've done a number of solid wood countertops in baths and kitchens, including some on yachts. I've built them of cherry, mahogany, maple and rift oak. Kids or no kids, you can make it work and still sleep at nite for the next 20 years. The owner does have to understand the liabilities and remain diligent about surface care, and you must thoroughly seal the underside and all edges, especially end grain - I've used W.E.S.T Epoxy.
My system involves securing the top from the underside, through the full depth top of a Euro style cabinet. After preassembling the top by edge gluing with epoxy, I secure it's front edge to the front of the carcase top. I then screw the middle and back edge through slotted holes in the top. Wood movement is then limited to the back edge, which I cover with a splash, and caulk that joint with a high grade, flexible rubber, like Life Caulk - available in marine supply stores. If it's a real wide countertop, like the one in the attached photo, I try to predict movement, so I know I'm allowing enough between the wall and counteredge.
When I build any unusual piece of woodwork that requires special care, I ALWAYS keep a paper trail between the client and my shop. These days, I transcribe notes of verbal conversations and e-mail them to clients, asking for a return receipt. And I save all of them.
Namaste,
Gary
http://gwwoodworking.com/
Ooops - photo didn't post - see next.
Edited 1/7/2003 12:04:36 PM ET by Gary
Here's photo of three year old, full 1" thick cherry countertop, with 3" edge and inlaid black walnut feature strip. The back edge is under a flamed granite splash. The top on the right is 30" deep.
Namaste,
Gary
http://gwwoodworking.com/
Gary, very nice work. What do you use for a finish on the countertop?
If ignorance is bliss then apathy is sheer heaven...
Roger,
Thanks. I finished the top with Bally Blocks' Good Stuff, which you can find at http://www.ballyblock.com/, and I finished the underside with a paintable polyester clear coat (it was probably just a leftover). Good Stuff is a gel-like finish chosen because its a non-toxic, simply applied finish. It can be used on food prep surfaces. I give a can to the home owner, along with instructions for recoating. The key here, is that the user has to be diligent about care. If they insist on wood, then I hammer into their head the care requirements.
Although I didn't build it, a friend (the guy with the cherry countertops in my earlier post) has mahogany countertops in his Woodside, CA home. They're perhaps 20 to 30 years old, and they cover every cabinet in his kitchen, including the sink. Those wood countertops were glued up before W.E.S.T. System Epoxy was formulated, and there is NO threatening degrade. They're beautiful.
As to W.E.S.T. penetrating endgrain: it works, I think, better than any other coating, because it's quite watery and penetrates. The acronym stands for Wood Epoxy Saturation Technique. I built wooden boats, some with W.E.S.T., for over 15 years, and I came to rely on that brand of epoxy. System Three is the little brother, and I never tried it. When I found a product that worked, especially glue, varnish and paint, you'd have to press me really hard to change. Although W.E.S.T. is most commonlyh used as the glue it was intended to be, it makes a fine coating, so long as it isn't subjected to sunlight.
I don't glue up wood countertops with Epoxy; I glue them with Tightbond II. It works. Namaste,
Gary
http://gwwoodworking.com/
Could you build the counter on a substrate and possibly screw the boards from the bottom up along with the glue of your choice? I dont know if this would work, just a suggestion since you mentioned not wanting holes in the top?