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Looking for some advice….
I am in the process of trying to remodel a bathroom. Not big by todays standards (8×8). I have remodeled the rest of the house and this is the last room. Due to various reasons, mostly lack of time and energy, I want to hire someone to do the work for me. I have all the materials ready to go including fixtures (some on hand, others within a week from the local supply place). I have had 5 contractors come out to the house for estimates. Along with seeing the actual bathroom they all received the same diagram of the room with the work I wanted completed. They also received copies of the various spec sheets for fixtures (e.g. tub, toilet, sink, faucet, valve/drain, tiles, etc.) to the ensure they didn’t have a problem with any. None had any problems with the work to do, materials chosen ot existing condtion of the bathroom being a problem.
My question is am I expecting to much for someone to come out and do a small job like this? I am thinking that it would be an easy way for a contractor to make some “easier” money than someone they have to help design, decide, etc. All the estimates were in the $1400 to $2000 per day range. These estimates are just for labor. Am I missing or not considering contractor issues? Is the building boom that good where no one wants to be bothered with small jobs? The estimates seem high. While I understand the need to make a decent living I don’t understand a $175 to $250 per hour rate. I don’t mind paying a reasonable profit. I have done alot of work myself and realise that although I can do it I am not a pro. Just trying to find out if I am off base here.
Additional info: the house is in Massachusetts, and I have tried discussing with the contractors but get back scheduling and “I don’t break down costs” as the main responses.
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Shawn, you sound like a tire kicker. % contractors and you cna't come to terms?
What does $1400 to $2000 a day mean ? are you soliciting day rates ?
Including fixtures, labor, electrical, flooring, wall finish and painting, figure $10,000 so back out your fixtures (that you own, not the plumber, so who warranties them). And go from there. Licensed contractors in Mass. have costs of business just like you, Do you think they pocket $175 an hour. Not hardly? Or there would be even more Lawyers geting into this business than there are now.
*Mike is right. The job costs anywhere from $8-12,000; subtract the cost of what you have on hand and that is what the going rate is for a bathroom remodel. I just went through the same exercise you did. There are costs beyond belief and time (something so simple usually takes a half day). Good Luck.
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Thanks for the feedback.
5 contractors does sound like alot but I wouldn't call myself a tirekicker or someone who doesn't want to spend money. I had a contractor I used and trusted but he left the business so I can't use. (He would do it but only in his spare time and we only have one bathroom in the house). The other contractors I tried/received because I tried that on-line "Improve.net" service. Online service that tries to match jobs to contractors in your area. They seemed interested until after the estimate - eliminate 2 because they would never return my calls to discuss the job. That is, it took three weeks to get the estimate and didn't include half the jobs/tasks outlined or talked about on site, no references, no insurance so I didn't know what was included if they got the job. It seems you have to call 10 to get 2 to call back. If I have taken the time to make an estimate as easy as possible the least I would expect is an estimate back that includes every I asked for (references, insurance proof and acknowledgement that what was talked about was heard and understood).
I am not soliciting daily rates. $1400 to $2000 is simply a calc of $7000 to $10000 labor estimates ranges I received divided by the number of days for the job(5 from the estimates)divided by 8 hours.
Bottom line from your info is that I will be paying more than expected which is O.K in the grand schmes of things (I must of had a great deal on my jobs with the contractor I used to use. Great work at a good price.)
However it is my money and if I don't understand what I am paying for or I can't get a good sense that your past jobs are oK (references would be good here), don't know if proper insurance is in place, and I can't trust you in my house when I am away what is the point of dealing with professionals?
Color me .... just looking for a honest, reliable contractor I can do business with a finish this *&^% house once and for all
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Forgive your contractors for not wanting to provide you with 20hours worth of extimating and paperwork when they are still only bidding against four other contractors.
As I said in another post, after I weed out the tire kickers as much as I can on the phone, I still only close 20-25% of bids. That means I need to do quick estimates or I won't have time to do the work.
Your "help" by providing drawings, specs, and material lists can really be a pain. I prefer to help you design a project that not only fits your needs but also works mechanically. If you don't want the experience a contractor can bring to the project, just hire an out of work tradesman by the hour. You are not only hiring labor. You are hiring labor, liability insurance, workmancompinsation insurance, truck, tools, experience, warranty service after work is done, the advertising that let you find the contractor, and the other four estimates the contractor had to do because home-owners need to price shop with five contractors.
About you provideng the materials: Red Flag for a price shopper. You're lucky you got 5 estimates.
If all five estimates showed nearly the same price, why would you think the price is something else? It costs what it costs whether you provide materials or the contractor does.
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Hate to do this since I am just looking for some current info related to contractors and their issues...but your response highlites the "joy" of dealing with contractors. If you actually took the time with a client to understand what was being discussed or asked, or even if you just asked for clarification on something you probably have more jobs than you could handle.
I would agree with you that you are buying more than just labor but spare me the lecture on what else is included in the price. My point was that I wasn't expecting such a high price. Read...I was looking for background info such as did insurance rates go through the roof? Is finding help easier/harder recently, have rates gone up to keep good help, etc. And why can't you (contractors) tell me what the breakdown in costs are? I am not looking for detail here...and I understand that "it costs what it costs" sounds good, however looking at it from my side that is crap. I would gladly pay more for a higher bid job if that was the one contractor who addressed all my concerns. God forbid you have to put effort into understanding your client expectations. Specifically to your points - a diagram was provided because I had it already as I was planning on doing the work myself. Same for the spec sheets on the fixtures. Seemed to save alot of time wih the contractors as far as exact product id#'s. They all said it helped as so I didn't pick the wrong valve/drain or faucet with the sink and tub- bottm line no problems with what was chosen. I personally don't care who buys the fixtures. As far as design goes save me from the contractor who says he can design a better bathromm, kitchen etc. I would agree that you may have insight into materials and/or issues with materials. Besides this "remodel" is simply upgrading existing bath with better materials. Nothing is being moved, added on or enlarged. As far as "expertise" goes I have personal experience with a contractor who put a whole in my floor for a gas firplace because he didn't feel like taking the extra 15 minutes to go through the sill. Spare me the expertise lecture. Give me an estimate that has everything you will do based on visit/discussion, provide me references (goog quality jobs) and proof of up to date insurance and I would be calling asking you haven't started yet and who do I make the check out to. You waste my time and give nothing but lip service to customer care, service and quality when take three weeks to give estimates and do not include anything except the price -take it or leave it. I wouldn't trust you with cutting grass let alone being in my house for week for the inevitable " Oh you want that done it's gonna cost you more" routine. References and insurence proof ?- or is that just a scam to get your prices up.
I paint with a broad brush here..so be it
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There is an easy solution to all these problems. Ask a friend or neighbor who they use and who they like. Don't expect to find Mr (or Mrs) right from the phone book. The most successful contractors I know are that way because they do great work and provide great service. None of them advertise. None of them have to. You need to dig deep to find them.
As far as cost breakdown, I won't do it just because I don't like to give out personal information. Ask walmart what percentage of your purchase went to pay for redecorating the home office.
As for the "that's gonna cost you more routine". I should never happen. My proposals are never less than five pages. Every aspect of work is broken down. My proposals start with drawings and permits and finish with clean up and disposal of debris. You know what is and is not included. But, even with all this detail, you get just a final price, not broken down.
I wasn't saying that you are a price shopper or even that it's bad to be one. Just that most contractors don't want to deal with them and buying your own materials is a flag that you may be one.
I understand that you don't like our "take it or leave it" attitude but you get the same when you buy gasoline, milk, or tires. The sign on the supermarket shelf next to the raisins really says "Raisins $2.35/lb...take it or leave it"
*Gee Shawn: didn't mean to get your dander up. Sounds like a good job. As a GC, I have my own carpenters , would sub the plumbing to MY plumber, would prefer that HE supply the fixtures that you pick out, so that HE handles the plumbing warranty items, would use MY electrician and my tile man and my plasterer, ONE bathroom in the house is a bear, trying to coordinate that many trades in boom times like this is really stretching it. All of the good contractors are super busy and their subs are super busy. I hate to turn away business, but when you're overextended, your good customers get mad at you. And trying to schedule a plumber is tough because they HAVE to handle their regular emergencies too. If you use a plumber who just does new installations, then who is going to service my customers. Anyhow, your contractor is out there, and he's probably one of the guys who just got under your skin on this thread.Because they tend to care. References, timely estimates, insurance certificates, reasonable schedules , SCALE DRAWINGS AND ELEVATIONS, SPECIFICATIONS......all SOP.But the amount of breakdown I give is almost nil, I get beat over the head with it if I give it out.That is why the posts were saying they wanted to help you design it, so you were both working to the same budget, not so the could lord it over you with their superior knowledge, IMPROVE.net.......... I don't know if I like that one, who are those guys and how much of the action do they get ?Do you live in a small town, do you have a plumber ? an electrician, get a referral from them, or get one from the proprietor of your local hardware store. Or call up your old contractor and ask him what young dudes have their act together.But in good times or bad times, we still bet the ranch when we give a Fixed Price proposal, so 20 hours for an estimate is not a big stretch.Its like the lady who wanted me to come look at her basement and give her an estimate on finishing it , so she could tell her Realtor so they could tell prospective buyers how much. I said sure , 5 hours T&M, and she said , "Well , it shouldn't take you more than 1 or 2 hours". Now why didn't she just figure it out herself , if she knew how long it should take me ?She didn't hire me for the estimate , so I got back to work TRYING to keep my paying customers happy.Hey Shawn, what did you (do you) do to keep the wolf from the door ? Just curious ?b KEEP YOUR POWDER DRY AND A SMILE ON YOUR FACE, IT REALLY MAKES 'EM WONDER. AND LETS BE GOOD TO ONE ANOTHER OUT THERE.
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Shawn,
How many men are the contractors going to have at the job each day? Maybe the hourly cost per man-hour is more reasonable. Just a thought, John.
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Shawn:
When figuring your cost per hour, don't forget to figure in the time it took for the contractor to come out to look, and then formulate the bid - sounds like min 2 hrs. Oh, as long as your are at it, multiply those hours by 5 since five contractors went through the same process, and it probably would be safe to assume that the contractor you do select gave 4 other bids to people who did not select him for the job.
I guess what I am saying is that if you got 5 similar bids, then what else about the money aspect of the job do you need to know?
PS - don't pick the cheapest bidder.
*As someone who sees both sides of the contractor-homeowner problem, I can understand why both get so p*ssed off so easily. Shawn, you may have a salaried job and don't appreciate the benefits, the guarantee of a steady supply of work, etc. that a "regular" job provides. Contracting is costly, and mostly because of labor. Small jobs are particularly costly because they use labor inefficiently and still have the overhead of unremunerative bidding, hassling with clients, and such -- for these reasons and others, like getting trapped in lots of busy little jobs that provide more travel time than work time, I have carefully avoided the term "handyman" in my work. Your bathroom project is small enough to be nearly at the handyman level.The contractors get tired of being called cheats, tired of knowing they're just one of many suitors for a job, and get defensive as a result. "Price shopper" is kind of like what some real estate company caleed the "looky lous," people who actually seem to enjoy the process of getting ready to start work. (Myself, I like working, period.) Your doing all the detail work really does little to lessen the contractor's workload, because he/she must now evaluate and adapt your plans rather than doing them right the first time. It's great that you know what you want, but too much control hinders the process and definitely does little to reduce cost -- it may even raise it. The prices you are getting are the "going rate" for bathrooms, to my understanding. I assume you're talking about a gut remodel. Believe me, kitchens and baths are a b*tch to remodel, cramped, space-starved and often full of unwelcome surprises once the walls are open. That you got roughly the same price repeatedly can't be chance -- the contractors aren't scheming against you together, right?Believe me, I swallow hard when I give a customer a quote, because it seems high to me too. But it's what it costs, labor ain't cheap in this country ... especially skilled labor that comes with a guarantee. You're right that the contractors should do a little more "handholding," but this is really just an aspect of salesmanship because the price will remain the same. With so much business out there now, and good business at that (read: complex projects), some people are just too busy to be civil. But really, this all isn't about your feelings, it's about getting your bathroom done, and you have to decide whether to get it done yourself, done by a contractor, done by a possibly unlicensed/uninsured moonlighter, or not done at all.
*I almost want to say it seems a little high to me. I am in a different area and have no idea to what extent you are remodeling. If I could get 8-10 grand per 8x8, labor only, bathroom remodel, I would be doing nothing other than bathrooms. I do realize that bathrooms are the worst jobs because they are small, cramped and every little thing seems to take forever. There are no areas where you make good time. I am also sure that the market is different in your area than in mine.I usually turn away bathroom remodels and sometimes kitchens too. There are so many variables and the customers usually only have a vague idea of what they want and expect me to put together a final plan. With hundreds of cabinets, fixtures, floorings etc....I'd just rather not. Besides, it is far too easy in these parts to find a "handyman" to do the work at a fraction of what I charge. I will do the project if the customer has done their homework. Such as a definite plan of how they want it and exactly what they want in it or I will also put a little more interest in it for a good existing customer of mine.Pete Draganic
*Gee whiz. I just posted a response and came back to see that you went ahead and got all shitty with my pals here. Fact is that the price IS the price. The price is usually a generalized estimnate on what it takes to complete a job. Personally I never sit down and say "let's see, 35 bucks to install the light fixture, 300 to lay the floor tile, 55 to grout it..." or whatever the case may be. ALSO by not itemizing the list, I don't get some shithead thinking that "ok, I'll do this little item and that and you take off the amounts" The price also includes a number of whatevers that I may not have anticipated. So quit being an unappreciative prick, asking for free advice on this board and then bitching at the guys who give it to you! These guys do PLENTY to help all you DIYers out there and they give great advice in doing so. You come here questioning 5 bids that are all similar and whine about the contractors not breaking every little item down. They shouldn't have to. I can see how some of the folks here might take ofense to it. You are not the only customer these bidders are dealing with. If they had to itemize every thing the way you wanted for every bid to a customer that they deal with, there would be no time left in the week to do any of the work. So...would you kindly take that wide brush you've been painting with and shove it up your ass.Pete Draganic
*I have found that any time someone wants have a breakdown of an estimate that shows costs and profit they only want to prove to themselves that you are making too much. I really cant see any reason that a customer need to see what you make on a job any more than I need to see your paycheck. I cant see anything positive that would come out of you seeing a cost breakdown on this job. You have already decided that you know what a "decent living " and a "reasonable profit" for a contractor is so move on. What if I asked to see your paycheck to determine whether you make a reasonable salary or not. No one wants to waste time justifying thier profit for you. If people wont call you back would you really want them to work on your house. Consider yourself lucky that you found out that they are unreliable before they had your one and only bathroom gutted. Im sure Mass. is one of the more expensive areas to live in or do business in so the costs may not be out of line. Its your money and your house so you can get whoever you want to work on it, just quit worrying about whether these guys are making more money than you are, some of them probably are, but most guys in the construction business barely scraped by for a long time before they became financially sucessfull.
*Hello Shawn, (and everyone else) I'm gonna step out on a limb here, give my opinion, some accurate statistical info, and then get my ass chewed on by several people. $8,000.00 to $10,000.00 for labor only, especially for an 8' x 8' bathroom is OUTRAGEOUS. Not a little high, not very high, but OUTRAGEOUS. I don't care if 50 contractors in your area are offering the same price, this is so far above normal it ain't funny. According to the American Remodelers Association (ARA),CABO (Council of American Building Officials) and AIA (American Insurance Association), the average national bathroom remodel, fixtures and all, is $7,800.00. This includes all labor, materials, etc... Now when little surpises inside the walls or ceiling are found, they will surely go up. This is also taking into consideration STANDARD fixtures, not Jacuzzi whirlpool tubs, pressure assisted toilets, $250.00 Delta faucets, etc... Just a plain Jane, standard remodel. Now your area may very well be a high end area of the country. I don't know. But if the national average is $7,800.00 for everything, then your labor estimate is off the scale. Now for some info on YOUR situation as a customer. By providing the fixtures, paint, drywall, etc... yourself, you would be taking part of my profit away from me. I will most definitely make it up on labor, so you really aren't saving anything by doing this. The only thing it will do for you is make sure you get exactly what you want in the way of tub, toilet, sink, vanity, etc... No harm whatsoever in doing this, as long as you know that it ain't saving you any money. Also, YOU have now become the GC on this bath remodel. Basically, you designed it, you provided the materials for it, and now you are searching for the "hired hands" (labor) to do the actual work. You cannot simply tell the contractor (who is now acting as a subcontractor by the way) that "here is the material, here is the plans, go do your thing". It won't work. YOU are now going to have to make absolutely sure that ALL material is on site exactly when the "labor" needs them, make sure that you have all the warranty paprwork on all the fixtures, because the contractor is NOT responsible for warranty other than that for "correct" installation of all customer provided materials. My gut instincts would tell me that you would not actually fulfill the role of GC, even though you have inadvertantly taken on this role. Because of this, I would foresee (by experience) that many problems for me will lay ahead. I would tend to price high in order to compensate myself for having to deal with this situation. (No where near the prices you were quoted though). Remodeling is a two way street. It takes cooperation and understanding from both parties. If you are not comfortable with a contractor, a bid, or the whole process, it is very wise to avoid it and start over. Now, in regards to the "cost breakdown", I see this mentioned alot. I really don't think you are asking for a COST breakdown, but more of a PRICE breakdown. Something like "how much is it gonna cost me to have the tub installed?" type of thing. I give complete pricing breakdowns, and I am not ashamed of,nor embarrassed by my pricing scales. Someone mentioned going to the grocery store and buying Raisins at $xxx per pound. This IS a price breakdown. If you toted the whole cart of groceries to the register, and they simply told you "that'll be $135.00" you'd have a cow. You'd want to know what EACH item in your cart cost. You get a receipt, and it does indeed break down the pricing for each item. I've done enough bath remodels to know that I will most definitely find surprises in the walls. I explain in very great detail, and clarity to the customer that this bid does NOT include any of these surpises. I know going in what the worst case scenario will most likely be, and that helps a lot. I can, in my mind, be prepared for these surpises. I already have several forms ready (just fill in necessary detailed info for this particular job) and I now have an "Add Work Order" (also called a Change Order Form). This will let you know what we found, what it will take to fix it/replace it, and how much it will cost. As contractors, sometimes we lose sight of the fact that we too are consumers. As consumers, we need to be intelligent in how we shop. Asking for a price breakdown is not unreasonable at all. If you ever deal with governmental agencies, or insurance companies, then you already give pricing breakdowns. Just my thoughts...James DuHamel
*Oh Yeah, Improvenet.com is the biggest joke I have ever seen. To be a qualified contractor, listed by them, and refered by them, you have to do one simple thing. PAY THEM. That's right, you pay them for listing you, and refering you. If you have a problem with the contractor they recommended, too bad. You are now on your own. This is one area that sounded very good when in the planning stages, but the fact of the matter is... GOOD contractors will not list on the internet (at least not on sites like these). The idea, and the reality, are totally different in this aspect. Referals from friends, relatives, co workers, etc... are still the best form of advertising for a GOOD contractor, and is your best source for finding a good one.Just a thought...James DuHamel
*Pete,Don't bottle up your emotions like that. go ahead and let it out. What do you really think?
*I can't comment on price without knowing all the details of the job.About breaking down costs, there is no reason you shouldn't if you feel comfortable doing it. There is also no reason I should if I don't feel uncomfortable with it. I price mostly out of a book (some purchased, some created by me) and can tell a customer how much changing a certain element will cost on the spot so I see no advantge to breaking down my costs.I don't think "Raising $X.XX per lb" is the breakdown Shawn wants. I suspect that he wants to know how much the seed cost, labor to prune, labor to harvest, cost of the vinyards workman compensation insurance, etc.The problem I have with customers providing materials is two fold. First, when something fails, there will always be debate over whether it is my work or their material that was the problem. Let me provide everything and then we know who's problem it is. Second, the toilet will always be a 10" rough-in when I needed a 12; Down at the local Home Depot they told the home owner to just install the tile over the exising rotten, sagging subfloor and sold materials to do this; The sink is missing the hanging bracket because it was sold on the discount rack and now I've got 1/2 a day driving around trying to find the right bracket; the new shower stall is 1/2" too long to fit in the alcove; After the drywall is finished and painted, they exchanged the fan and now want the light to be on a dimmer and a speed control wall switch when I only pulled three wires; The room is 8' wide and they ordered vinyl flooring in 6' width instead of 12'; The lock they provided is for a 2-3/4" backset.
*It is RARE that I ever break down prices for my buyers. Almost 100% of the time I have found that the reason the buyer wants that info is for one of two uses :1. he's going to try to break up the project and shop bids on the remnants.2. he's going to come back to me with opposing bids with which he feels armed to price haggle me.After many years of experience, I hope I'm right in saying that I have gotten the feel for the time to hold and the time to fold. And the time when the buyer wants to know how I run my business is the time to fold.Of course, there is always the exception and that is a cooperative effort between the buyer and me in getting a job done when there are time pressures etc. I'm more than happy to supply estimates on a large project knowing full well that I will not be able to handle all the work. I'll do that time and time again for a buyer who has proven reliable and profitable for me. And those large projects always apportion their major items to me and I sometimes contact my own competitors to help.
*Jim et al: come on , we've all met Shawn, he's that control freak we thought we could please when we were young and naive. When the opening line is all about the BAD contractors he was trying to deal with, hell, we know he ain't talking about us , we're theGOOD contractors and we can make him happy.......Anyway, good posts , one (small ) point though Jim, if you read Remodeling and their cost of construction surveys, you'll see that $10K for a gut with 3 fixtures is not a bad place to start. I usually use it as my QUALIFIER. If I say "$10K average, sometimes more, sometimes less", and they are still talking, then I know we are both on the same wavelength. It's always surprising how many people have $3-$5K in their heads, and this flushes that idea fast.In my response to Shawn I told him to start at $10K and deduct the cost of the fixtures, so you and he can do the math.I'm also not going to take Shawns plans and give him a Proposal, I might give him a ballpark, but what I am probably going to do is get a design fee out of him to make sure he's serious. He may think we're just going to remove the existing fixtures and put new ones right back in, but I'm not buying into that until I've been to the job with my plumber and we both agree on the new design. You know how many code violations there are in old baths, and two sets of eyes are usually not enough to find them all.This is the most demanding 64 sf. of space in the whole house and it's the ONLY one. If we're going to please Shawn and get the final payment, a lot of people are going to have to jump thru hoops, unless we can talk him into using the Porta-john for two weeks. Or moving in with his Mother-in -law. Shawn , your Contractor is out there. But he ain't getting rich off your job, he's just making a living, trying to meet the payroll, keep everyone happy, and pay the mortgage.Sign me, happy in my work and wishing you the best.b Ain't this a great country?!!
*Shawn,Why don't you just pick a contractor you like, get an hourly rate and pay by the hour. I am always happy to work hourly, since it saves the trouble of bidding, guarantees, etc. I doubt if any one will quote you $175 - $250 per hour. The rates will be more likely $45 - $75. But bear in mind that these will be per manhour. Most contractors, working hourly, will estimate the total amount of time, but this will not be a bid they will be locked into. I will never guarantee any work using customer supplied parts that might be prone to failure.
*bristles first eh Pete? I couldnt agree more, you da man.
*Wow! Some great posts. I nominate Pete's humble rant for the post of the millenium.My take on all this is Shawn has some construction knowledge (Uh oh) and wants the best deal. My experience is this is a red flag. He unwittingly is going to end up micromanaging the job. As evidence to support this, he says he wants what he wants and no more. Examples of this is his insistence that the contractors supply him with a breakdown, "customer service", etc., but also wants to be spared from the actuality of const. management issues. In short, he is asking for answers only to what he wants. Never mind the contractors really do try to provide him with a better knowledge-based understanding. He reminds me of a customer I had. Two baths and a kitchen remodel. Not really involved, the whole thing for $34K. He got 15 different bids! Wanted me to install used hardware he provided, raised hell when I said I'm gonna' rip out the subfloor he had just put down himself (one room, composed of no less than 15 pcs. of scrap ply, 4d finish nails in some places, 12d box nails in others, missing joists, etc.). Throughout the 8 weeks I was there he kept hounding me for a breakdown on this or that. He always had the idea that if he deleted this thing or that he would save x price. Never once did he think of cost. BTW: cost includes any modifications to original schedule or actual work. A deletion leaves a hole--virtual or actual--, how you gonna' fill it?I can understand Shawn's thinking that the more information he provides to the contractor, the better. Comes a point though, too much is too much. He's crossed that line and, as previously mentioned, is really looking to hire out the labor. I really didn't intend to pick on Shawn personally, but it sure looks that way.Shawn's so full of piss right now that I think he should just DIY it. I'd pass. When a guy says he wants, he wants...but doesn't appreciate the whole picture, I'll pass.Shawn probably started with the best of intentions and probably still has them. But, he's scaring guys off. Perhaps this is reflected in the high prices he's recieved. C.M. costs alot. Maybe the contractors sense the need to pad their bids. You know; bid high, if you get it, it'll be justified by the necessity of high mantainence. This is speculitive on my part, but what are the odds?
*Man, you guys are harsh. While I don't disagree with a lot of what's been said in general, I guess I just have trouble reading into Shawn's post what some of the rest of you have. And if the guy, after getting slammed, stands up for himself, can you blame him? I don't have any problem with a customer that knows what he wants; if he or she specs me x unit from manufacturer y, that's a pile of info I don't have to collect, read up on, price, and educate the customer on. As far as making money on supplying materials, those days are going, in my area anyway, and others have said the same here. Picking quality lumber to work with is one thing, but my customers are getting better deals from suppliers on fixtures etc. than I am in some cases. And I don't mind explaining some of the things that go into the price; everything I do is expensive, and folks have to be comfortable with what they are getting for the money, and their options. I'm not going to put everything on the table, but it's part of establishing trust. The customers part is to be honest about their expectations and budget. Anyway, bottom line is, I didn't see anything in Shawn's post to raise my hackels. Maybe if this is how it's gonna be in a boom time, you're better off putting stuff off until things slow down. And they will slow down.
* Shawn,
Joseph Fusco View Image
*I hesitated to add to this thread, but not too long, maybe not long enough.Like previous posters I didn't read all the negativity into his post that others picked up. The question is: Where did you pick up all those things about him and his job? He didn't say them so it must be from your own sorry experiences. Althought experience is a great teacher a person still has to leave room for a new thought, or be a prisoner of the past.To the mechanics of the remodel and bid. The bids seem awfully high to me. But I don't know where Shawn lives. Perhaps he is in an area like where I temporarily lived and where most of the locals had a policy of "punishing" anyone who did anything but open their pocketbook and bend over. Perhaps he lives in a very busy and high cost area and despite my experience the bids are right on target, Perhaps like Joseph says there is someone out there who will do a good job at a fair price. Lots of perhaps with not firm answers at this time.So, keep at it Shawn. Just be sure you are being as open, fairminded and understanding as you expect your contractor to be. Look in the mirror and be sure you are treating the contractor as you want to be treated and understanding that we all have to put beans on the table. Do that and the job will get done and you both will be happy. Oh yes, look around at the work you've done. Is it to commercial quality that any of us would be proud of? Or, is it something that only a mother could love? What you have done speaks loudly about what kind of person you are and what the bidder is getting into. If poor work, you might as well face up to finishing the job yourself. I know I wouldn't want to be even remotely associated with poor work and wouldn't say no but would bid so high you wouldn't hire me.
*Nicely said, Pete. I could learn from you.
*Well, Shawn is probably seething by now, and it's too bad because there is quite a bit of wisdom in these posts. I tried to answer in a balanced way, don't know if it was helpful. I don't usually condone profane posts -- that's the sort of thing morons mistake for proving their superiority -- but thought Pete's was right on. I laughed out loud, he just released a lot of pressure that was building because of Shawn's attitude -- read between the lines of his rant (really, did Ryan say anything to deserve this?):""Hate to do this [beware my wrath!]...but your response highlites the "joy" of dealing with contractors. [i.e., all contractors are assh*les] If you actually took the time with a client to understand what was being discussed or asked, or even if you just asked for clarification on something you probably have more jobs than you could handle. [all clients are victims and I assume for some reason that you're unemployed] I would agree with you that you are buying more than just labor but spare me the lecture on what else is included in the price. My point was that I wasn't expecting such a high price. [in other words, the lecture didn't work] Read...I was looking for background info such as did insurance rates go through the roof? [fair pay couldn't possibly be the issue] Is finding help easier/harder recently, have rates gone up to keep good help, etc. And why can't you (contractors) tell me what the breakdown in costs are? [it's a conspiracy] I am not looking for detail here...and I understand that "it costs what it costs" sounds good, however looking at it from my side that is crap. [you're sh*tting on the customers and telling them to like it] I would gladly pay more for a higher bid job if that was the one contractor who addressed all my concerns. [ha!] God forbid you have to put effort into understanding your client expectations. [you work for me, damn it!] ""Specifically to your points - a diagram was provided because I had it already as I was planning on doing the work myself. [that is, any jerk could do this stuff, including me] Same for the spec sheets on the fixtures. Seemed to save alot of time wih the contractors as far as exact product id#'s. They all said it helped as so I didn't pick the wrong valve/drain or faucet with the sink and tub- bottm line no problems with what was chosen. [I don't appreciate the headaches with fixtures lie not in, duh, looking up part numbers but INSTALLING them] I personally don't care who buys the fixtures. As far as design goes save me from the contractor who says he can design a better bathromm, kitchen etc. I would agree that you may have insight into materials and/or issues with materials. ["may have" -- again, any schmoe could do what you do, I'm just hiring you as a convenience] Besides this "remodel" is simply upgrading existing bath with better materials. Nothing is being moved, added on or enlarged. As far as "expertise" goes I have personal experience with a contractor who put a whole in my floor for a gas firplace because he didn't feel like taking the extra 15 minutes to go through the sill. [one hack means you're all hacks, I'm the expert] Spare me the expertise lecture. Give me an estimate that has everything you will do based on visit/discussion, provide me references (goog quality jobs) and proof of up to date insurance and I would be calling asking you haven't started yet and who do I make the check out to. [what a great gift to contractor's I am, why am I not appreciated???]""You waste my time [who is wasting whose time here?!?] and give nothing but lip service to customer care, service and quality when take three weeks to give estimates [I assume you watch TV for 3 weeks and aren't busy, when you should be kissing my feet] and do not include anything except the price -take it or leave it. [why can't I audit your books? my dentist let me when I had to have a $250 root canal] I wouldn't trust you with cutting grass let alone being in my house for week for the inevitable "Oh you want that done it's gonna cost you more" routine. [you're a crook because you're not nice to me] References and insurence proof ?- or is that just a scam to get your prices up. I paint with a broad brush here..so be it [I'm just full of piss and vinegar]One last point: whether the quote of $8-10k is reasonable depends a whole lot on where you live. I'm used to urban prices where a small home costs $200k, a price I know blows the mind of a Midwesterner. But then i look to the Silicon Valley where the same house would be smaller and cost $400k!
*Andrew answered it all. Shawn's 'tude, or, shall we say, "customer service" is sorely lacking. He may have been at wits end when he posted, like myself sometimes, but the matter of the fact is he is in control of his situation and does affect the results. What I "read into" his posts was that he exibited a cavalier attitude towards cooperation with contractors, yet expected top notch from the same.Look at the length of the posts here. I gather this is an important issue to everyone here. We try hard to establish a professional business relationship (rant away, but it's not BS) with the client, often under the burden of shifting desires from the client, among other things. Too, residential remodeling is a balancing act between satisfying the owner and maintaining a healthy business. Many times I have sacrificed my business in order to serve the owner. Infrequently, I have failed to achieve the ideal because of unreasonable requests. (Had a guy change his mind and demand new cabs after installation of owner-supplied Homer cabs and stone slab tops. Different layout too. Of course, he wasn't going to pay for it.) So, I'm saying I have done my best and he's thinking I'm a layman. I've also turned and walked off a project while the guy is screaming at me. Shawn sounds just like these guys. The thing is, I--and alot of others here--do care...to a point. That point is when I realize--sometimes takes me awhile--that I care more than the owners about their project. If you think this is BS, just think of how your worst and best jobs went. To what would you contribute the differences? By and large it is a lack of cooperation, unreasonable demands, or miscommunication. People problems.
*Bravo, Andrew. You managed to put on paper exactly what we all saw when we read it the first time.Oh, and Bravo to Pete, I'm gonna print his out and hang it on my wall. "Shove that wide brush you're painting with..."- good stuff.Actually, I understand shawn. I've been him before. My car broke down away from home and I was so sure I was gonna get screwed by the garage (for no reason other than garages are bad) that I gave the mechanics the in your face "I know what I'm doing so don't try anything" attitude. I got all worked up over $55/hr...for as lowly mechanic. Of course I understood the business's expenses, the training a good mechanic has to have. I was a real prick and in retrospect, I know these guys were just trying to get me back on the road.I always give the salesman the "you need to serve me...I know your a crook" attitude when I'm buying a car. Same reason: I think I'm gonna get screwed.So, Shawn, if you're still reading, I have some advice. (I'll know you'll want to take advice from us now that we've been so nice to you)Relax, most contractors are honest and fair...especially the ones that survived in this business a few years. If you get a feeling that one isn't for you, don't use him but be open to finding one you can trust. There are more good ones than bad ones. In fact...I know ALOT of contractors just from being in the same lumberyards with them every morning. Of the dozen that I would put somewhere between aquaintences and friends, none would rip off a customer. Some do better work than others but all the ones I know really want to please.
*
Joseph FuscoView Image"Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth." Socrates
*Let's cut to the chase, shall we Shawn? Just ask around and find someone with a reputation for good work, meet with them, and if you feel comfortable with them and feel they'll do a good job for you, pay them by the hour. On a small job, most contractors would rather $40 / hr. than have to bid on it. Internet directories are just like Yellow Pages directories, probably the worst possible way to pick someone. If I was in a lineup of 5 or more contractors, I'd ballpark it at $8,000 too, and if I didn't feel like it would be a complete waste of time I'd even sit down and give you a real price. Believe me, bathrooms can be expensive, especially in older houses where you end up re-plumbing everything all the way down to the basement, and re-wiring all the stuff that doesn't meet code. One small thing, though. Whatever you might think of contractors in general, once you make the deal with somebody to do this job, treat them with respect, they're probably trying to do the best they can for you and feed their family too.... and yes, a lot of them starved for years before they were in business long enough to make a living. Good luck!
*Hey, Fusco. Ya' know, I like you, I really do. You have alot of good stuff to say and, by golly, your witticisms usually make sense, even if they sometimes seem inappropriate. Now, here's the thing: I don't think a thread is needed to get a rant out of you. You're naturally fired up and ready to go. That's what I think. Why do you suppose that is, you from Hell's Kitchen, or something?(Gulp) I'm ready for your answer.
*Rich,
Joseph FuscoView Image"Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth." Socrates
*
Thanks you all for your thoughts, time and yes - advice. Judging by the responses I seem to have po'd about 2/3 thirds of the contractors out there. I did not intend to do this. I have read through all the posts and actually learned a few things, both for my bathroom and about people - I count myself in this group as well. Biggest lesson - don't try and think on a Friday afternoon after working 80 hours. Yes I do work, and like your responses, very hard. I travel and spend on average 4 nights away from home which is why it is important to me to find a contractor who can understand everything that concerns me and address it in the estimate or upfront because chances are I won't be there to ask.. Example would be I want this tub which projects 1 1/2 inch more than current tub, still the same width (5 feet) will removing and rebuilding the closet wall or that corner of another wall be a big deal? If it is tell me! Then I have to make a choice do I spend the money or pick a different tub. Believe me I am flexible. I just want to head off what I see as potential situations. Hopefully to get the contractor to say either no big deal or it is a problem because.... Which is why I was asking for advice. I have had contractors in my house over the last several years and based upon those experiences I have learned that the more you talk about up front the better the job goes. I am finding that my biggest mistake is not doing this bathroom earlier with the rest of the house as now no one seems to want to do this "small" job I am short on time and have tried to get this bathroom done since May. 5 bids seems like tire kicking but when you can't get calls back or the info you need - you end up at wits end well. Note thanks for the info on Improve.net. It seemed to me that if a contractor would take the time to review a job desription and talk over the phone and come out to see the job the least that would happen is a "complete" estimate with retruning phones calls.
A few clarification points, which are needed as I obviously didn't make myself entirely understood and the Internet is great at allowing the full range of misaligned emotions. Sorry if I don't quote anyone by name I would be here all day
As far as the "cost breakdown" goes what I actually want is a breakdon of the costs of the job, e.g. 2000 to redo the tile, 2000 to remove and install the tub /toilet, etc. No I am not tying bid out aspects of the job. I just want to a) know where my money is being spent. On a bigger scale my property is only worth so much - and has so much to be done. Every time I do something I have to remember not to overbuild/pricemyself out of the neighborhood. No one is going to appreciate everything I have done for the house as much as me. b)be able to compare the estimates I did get. e.g. Extreme example but if one says 500 to do tile and the another is 2000 it would allow me to ask questions...understand the contractor better and allow me to pick someone I am confortable with and can trust. I said it before I don't care what is covered by your rate (insurance, tools etc). I wish someone would tell me their hourly rate - at least then I would have something to compare
I do care that you can't provide insurance or references or worse yet think that it is unimportant to me. It was mentioned that this is SOP by some of the responses. Why do I have to beg to get them?
Yes it is a "gut" remodel. However the structure is sound I know your thinking "sure it is" but it is all new framing, floor joists, subloor. As well as entire new plumbing heating and electricity throughout the enitire house. The house was "sort" of a gut job. The building inspector in my town has a serious reputation. Actually had houses torn down because work was not done to her specs. She passed all work personally (she had to as a Cease and Desist order was slapped across my doors within the first week of owning - long story). So the point that you don't know what will be in the walls was addressed and discussed with the contractors.
I should say that althought this is a gut remodel it is more just a "working bathroom" much to the frustration of my wife. Since everything needed to be done to the house this was a room we just finished off with the cheapest fixtures after the structural, haeting, plumbing was done with the intent to come back and finish after the rest of the house was done. There is no trim, finish paint or even a working vanity. I have brushed my teeth at the kitchen sink for years so pleae don't tell me I am nitpicking or have a "better than you" attitiude" - I don't
As far as materials and fixtures go I did alot of the leg work already - why not pass this along to the contractor. I was unaware that if you/contractor buy and install you warranty - funny though that not one of the contractors told me that. Easy decision for me - you buy and install next issue. Spec sheets I think would eliminate any chance of confusion for what fixtures. There would be no "that is not what I wanted" debates when finished. As far as other materials (molding, trim) the house is 100 years old so I had to have them milled as I could no longer steal from remote parts of the house.
My diagrams that have been much maligned on the posts are nothing more than the existing floor plan with location of fixtures and all dimension for walls, tub, clearence, etc. I used as I looked for fixtures, tile, molding etc. I thought that it would help the contractors remember what the room looked like, issues talked about and where in the room they were. I didn't wotk that way as not one of the estimates mentioned these things. Believe me it was nothing fancy - just handy with computers. I wouldn't want dimensioinal diagrams in an estimate. No need.
"I know what I want" only means that I don't want any chages to this bathroom as far as locaion of anything. I made those decisons when the new plumbing was installed. I am not changing it now. If you need it in writing I would do it - no big deal.
The molding and trim I had made fits the character of the house and is incorporated throughout. Any ideas you may have regarding other molding options I can't use. While appreciated I have already decided upon the look and feel of the room to fit the rest of the house. What I would appreciate more howvever is your expertise as to the best way to install, paint, maintain etc.
Travel time to the job is, I assume a consideration, though I am not out in the boondocks so I can believe it is that significant. I will check. I think that maybe the prices are high because of the town I live in. it is a very desirable town - but read this - I am not living in the McMansion's that seem to be everwhere these days. A 100 year old country vistorian type house with one bathroom on the wrong side of town.
I am not looking for handholding, nor do I expect it. I am looking for a professional discussion and level of confidence that when finished the job is done well and with my concerns addressed. This is what my original post intended to convey. How can I or what can I do differently to achieve this. I will say that if handolding with a client is required - I do it in my job. My bottomline is that whatever is asked of me related to a particular job I try to the best of my ability to accomodate. While I am on salary if I stopped to figure out my hourly rate based he hours I work I would consider becoming a contractor. I know from these posts no one wants that to happen.
I seem to be rambling here so I will end this. I have learned a few new things and will continue my search to find a contractor. For those of you that "read" between the lines of my second post the only relevant thought is my frustration with "most" contractors not acknowledging what I am trying to communicate. If I am full of s**t with an idea tell me, but if it is something you may not have considered tell me that to. Everybody can't know everything. I certainly don't pretend to - despite the responses in your posts.
If anyone has additional questions regarding my now totally over worked bathroom remodel post or simply wishes to engage in a debate regarding Contactors and Customers: Who is the Bad Guy(Girl)- complete with both horror and kudos stories - post away.
Again I thank you all for your repsonses.
*
Sometimes you just gotta be that way. Honestly though, I was expecting to be chastised a little by some of you but it would have been well worth it!
Pete Draganic
*Shawn,Although you and I will never see eye to eye on alot of this, I respect your comming back to post again. I might have been chased away and when so many days past, I figured you had been.I still think your best course of action would be to find a good contractor through someone you know and work with only him. You have enough estimates already to know if he is within what is reasonable and working with one contractor is so much easier for both of you than trying to find the best of five.Tell him your budget up front, show him your drawings and your ideas and expect to work with him to make some changes to your ideas. He may be able to save you a considerable amount of money by making almost unnoticable changes.Like I said before, your guy (or gal) is out there but you won't find him in the phone book or on the internet. (most likely)-Good luck with your bath.
*Damn it anyhow! First I was nice to you, then I was mean to you and now I have to be nice to you again! Obviously I don't know you from Adam. Maybe you were lucky enough to pick 5 pricks for bids instead of finding a decent guy. You might just be the swellest easiest guy to work with but after that slam post of yours, it kinda set me off. I felt that most the guys tried to answer your questions fairly. As many have said before, there is also the deception of internet communication in that we are not able to detect sarcasm or general attitude of what is being said. This too doesn't help in making one's point as it was meant.Anyhow, apology accepted. I wish you the best with your project. Try some local sources, such as local news papers or word of mouth referals, for contractor's. preferably owner operators. A lot of flack comes to contractors because of those who sell the job and sub it out to someone else. Time to start the whole process over from a new perspective!And to you Mr. Joe Fusco.... Let's not have the pot calling the kettle black. You have had your share of heated say so. Perhaps warranted in your eyes but not neccesarily in everyone else's. This being said, I like you too.Sincerely,Pete Draganic(Time to hop off of this emotional roller coaster!)
*Shawn, My eyes glazeover at the length of your post. $5,000/day seems like a more reaonable figure for labor to me. Seriously, get a cost estimators book and do your homework - it will then be a SWAG instead of just a WAG.Dennis
*Shawn, please explore the concepts of PARAGRAPHS! You have to hit return twice for this software to recognize them. It's worth glancing at how your post came out after you posted it.You sound entirely sensible. I would try to find a recommendation from someone who has work done for them. Look at the work, too. And you can always ask, "Is there anything unusually difficult about this project that I'm overlooking? I'm not a control freak or anything." :)
* Pete,
Joseph Fusco View Image
*My experiance with small bath remodels is that they require alot of detail work in a small space in which usually only one person at a time can do their job. This means schedualing hassles, down time, etc. I also never warranty(or my plumber) owner provided fixtures. More work in less space means more costs to be charged for.
*Having served some twenty years in the kitchen and bath biz,I have run into my fair share of "Shawns". I'm curious what this fellow does for a living and how we might judge his business practices and disclosures. Since Shawn is such an expert and believes he can do it himself, perhaps he could provide us list of ALL the materials needed to do the job. I have a number of jobs I'd like to sub out to you Shawn. By your calculations it looks like we could make a lot of money. By the way, you might reconsider the time it takes to complete a bath. I've never seen anybody do a bath in 5 days that didn't have at least 3 men working. In my areawe require licensed plumbers and electricians. I find it difficult to fit 5 or 6 men with tools working on 3 different trades in a tiny little room. If I were to schedule them together I'd never see them again for the second job. It usually takes a few days of dry time for taping, tile, grout etc. You can in fact, microwave a steak, but it usually tastes like shit.Deduct the debris removal, truck, gas, liability, compensation, truck insurance, the time it takes to straighten out the crap you bought and stuff you didn't and finally the time it takes fighting you to get paid, I don't think $7,000 is going to cover it.I've yet to run into a job where the material, design or specifications were owner provided that wasn't a nightmare and/or lost my shirt! Fortunately you guys run up the flagfor us so we don't have to waste our time. I'm sure you will find someone without the so called expertise at the price you'll like. Guess what Shawn...you'll pay twice.
*Shawn:Step back, take a deep breath, get ahold of yourself and start all over. Having just reread most of the posts, yes I do have some extra time right now, ok a lot of extra time tonight, I think you should just put the job off until you can do it yourself.If the quality of your already done work isn't turning off the contractors, then the obvious answer is one of two things: a)The job is too small to bother with in your economy, or b)They see what they have "missed out on" and don't want to do what in their eyes is picking up the crumbs.In either case your only realistic options are to find a t&m worker(s) or to DYI. So, make a decision and get out of stress city.Let us know what you do. It would be a shame for all this adrenalin to have been spent and not even know the outcome.
*Same old story___ We depreciate others incomes when we have to pay for it. It takes a lot to survive in this business. Why did your other contractor that was so reasonable quit?? L. Siders Interior remodler
*I have it on reliable information that there is no Shawn. All of his posts came from SysopRuth, just chumming the waters for Taunton. Good job Ruth, every shark in the ocean came out.b Let's be careful out there !
*RUTHY!!!!You got some 'splaining to dooooo!
*If the sysop then she doesn't have enough to do if she has enough time to play at this. I know I don't really want to participate in a fraud, as if this board needs any chumming.So, what is it, sysop or real?
*Easy Fred..... my humble apologies for my twisted sense of humor.. Obviously you couldn't SEE my tongue in cheek and you're absolutely right---this board DON"T NEED NO CHUMMING.Sorry, Ruth. Sorry, Shawn!
*Its' OK. Thanks for clarifying.
*
Looking for some advice....
I am in the process of trying to remodel a bathroom. Not big by todays standards (8x8). I have remodeled the rest of the house and this is the last room. Due to various reasons, mostly lack of time and energy, I want to hire someone to do the work for me. I have all the materials ready to go including fixtures (some on hand, others within a week from the local supply place). I have had 5 contractors come out to the house for estimates. Along with seeing the actual bathroom they all received the same diagram of the room with the work I wanted completed. They also received copies of the various spec sheets for fixtures (e.g. tub, toilet, sink, faucet, valve/drain, tiles, etc.) to the ensure they didn't have a problem with any. None had any problems with the work to do, materials chosen ot existing condtion of the bathroom being a problem.
My question is am I expecting to much for someone to come out and do a small job like this? I am thinking that it would be an easy way for a contractor to make some "easier" money than someone they have to help design, decide, etc. All the estimates were in the $1400 to $2000 per day range. These estimates are just for labor. Am I missing or not considering contractor issues? Is the building boom that good where no one wants to be bothered with small jobs? The estimates seem high. While I understand the need to make a decent living I don't understand a $175 to $250 per hour rate. I don't mind paying a reasonable profit. I have done alot of work myself and realise that although I can do it I am not a pro. Just trying to find out if I am off base here.
Additional info: the house is in Massachusetts, and I have tried discussing with the contractors but get back scheduling and "I don't break down costs" as the main responses.