We are getting ready to remodel a bathroom in our house. My wife and I both like the look of bead board wainscoting and a chair rail for the lower portion of the walls. We had a GC tell us that putting wood products like the wainscoting in the bathroom is a bad idea. The steam from the shower will cause it to warp and it will look bad in a few years.
Both my wife and I think he is crazy…I have seen older homes in my neighborhood with wainscoting in bathrooms and it has been there for a long time and still looks good.
Anyone run into any issues with wainscoting in bathrooms?
Cheers!
Dark Magneto
Replies
If you have and use a bathroom exhaust fan, and the panelling has a good paint job, you will be fine.
I agree with Mike, Dark... I've done it a few times (it's a popular look here) and never had a problem.
Thanks guys. Yeah, I can't really forsee any issues if it is primed and painted and we use an exhaust fan. This GC is a little "crazy".
Cheers!Dark
get this stuff from azek and you will never look back -- do a web search
There is beadboard plywood that has full profile, looks like a full wood product - this would be more stable.
If you go T&G consider getting the tongues painted before assembly, some movement is inevitable.
I hope he's crazy!
I'm installing some right now! My Wife and I like the look as well, and after a couple of years of argueing about style, this we can agree on. To be sure, wood in a bath is a concern, but a good install, back prime, paint, caulk, will ensure a durable finish. I think your G.C. is wary because of the extra work.
I found 4x8 shts. of beadboard, routed MDF. The face was primed, not the back or edges. My method was, establish height of rail, 1/2" drywall above, 1/2" ply below, glue and shoot 4'x4' panels, glue as close to the edge as possible to stop moisture, touch all edges with primer/ sealer, backprime all trim, glue all mitres, set the baseboard in a bead of caulk, finish the whole shebang with a couple of coats of oil base paint.
We've seen this style in several magazines, so its certainly not unheard of. I'd send you a picture of mine, but its not finished and I don't know how to jpeg or attach or any of that stuff. Jeez... its taken me about 1/2 hour just to type this! Anyway, find a guy who likes the idea. For a carpenter, its a nice bit of work.
I wouldn't use the mdf panels b/c of the moisture issue; you might be ok with priming/venting, but I would worry about edges close to the shower or toilet (do you have sons?) wicking up mositure into the mdf.
I've installed three in my houses over the years.
First one eventually looked like crap.
Second became so-so
The one I did in this house I used 3/4" stock....I think that helped a lot....backprimed it with an oil base paint...same with the front.
So far so good
Obviously I don't give up.
Be well
a
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life.
—Robert Louis Stevenson
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
So far so good
Obviously I don't give up
What were you installing "over"? The worst bb installs I have seen were over skinny strapping on bare studs. One of the best was on t&g sheathing with two layers of what looked to be 10# felt. But the bead board looked to have been milled from old-fashioned 5/4 stock, too--back when paint grade meant even, straight, and knot free.
Svaed every stick of that I could, too--new HOs wanted "a clean, a moderne" look (said it that way, too).
Some of the new, skinnier, BB stock seems to react well to a good solid substrate, and treating it like a floor turned up on edge.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
What were you installing "over"? The worst bb installs I have seen were over skinny strapping on bare studs. >>>>
I ripped the walls to the bare studs which are a full 2" and then some (360 yr old house).
Then I installed 2x4's horizontally over that...then the BB
Be well
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life.—Robert Louis Stevenson
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
C'mon Andy. It's only been 2 weeks since you put it in. Give it a chance. And calling your second try "so-so" is being way too kind. Trucks were making deliveries between the gaps in your bathroom.
The panel bead board looks cheesy. The profile is inadequate and it looks like what it is. The t&g bead board moves all over the place because it's made from crap fast growth wood. No matter what you do, it will open and separate. In a bathroom, it will do it more. You can back prime, front prime, top prime, side prime, and it will still move. It's the wood, and there's nothing you can do about it except get old wood.
But, if you can live with the fact that it's going to move, it will be fine otherwise. Be prepared to paint and caulk any significant openings a year after you install. And don't use mdf anywhere near the toilet. Even if your kids are older, there's always visitors.
SHG
Hey scott you dick.........ahhhhhh...how can i help but not love ya.
yer friend AndyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life.—Robert Louis Stevenson
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
and you know I'm just joshing you. it was a bicycle delivery man with chinese food. it wasn't really a truck.
S
"The t&g bead board moves all over the place because it's made from crap fast growth wood. No matter what you do, it will open and separate. In a bathroom, it will do it more. You can back prime, front prime, top prime, side prime, and it will still move. It's the wood, and there's nothing you can do about it except get old wood."
Wrong old man - I've done it a dozen times with no adverse effects. See photos above. I also work on some that are a hundred years old too and have seen some of them move - the ones that were no backprimed. When they had a coat of oil or shellac on the backs - no movement that hurt anything.
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Wrong old man
who you calling "old"?
I've back primed, front primed, side primed, talked to it, kissed it (ouch), showed it the love. It still moves. Sometime a little, sometimes a lot. Sometimes cups, sometimes opens, sometimes buckles. What it never does is stay in the same place. But maybe you get better wood than me. I get mine by sneaking in late at night to Andy's bathrooms through the big holes in his bead board and take whatever I need.
As to mahogony, I have a ton of mahogony storms (which weight a ton, by the way, and are going to kill me one day trying to put them in each fall). I was really surprised at how much they swell as well. You really notice when you have to take them out and put them in. Pick the wrong day and you can't get the suckers out at all. Another day and you have a breeze all around. And of course they are fully primed and painted. Soooooo, I stand by my position, junior.
SHG
Shaggy
Just for the record....I think Piff has about 10 yrs on you so you better respect your elders sonThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life.—Robert Louis Stevenson
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Aha. Soooo, the truth comes out. So Piffin is just trying to hide his age, calling me old. Well, now that spring is back in my step and the chicks still dig me as much as ever. But my beadboard still moves.
SHG
Hey guys,
Thanks for all of the tips! I just talked to the GC and told him about the AZEK product. He said that he has never used it, but has heard other GC's use it and love the results. It looks like we will use the AZEK product for the beadboard wainscoting and not worry about the swelling or shrinking or splashes around the toilet.
Thanks again for all of you suggestions!
Cheers!Dark Magneto
http://www.darkmagneto.com
Gee, you never come across as a young hot-head. Wonder where I could have got that impression of age and wisdom...
;)
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Gee, you never come across as a young hot-head. Wonder where I could have got that impression of age and wisdom...
aw, shucks.
Must be those trees just have old deep seated prejudices against working with lawyers I guess.
So for you - definitely go with the Azek bead board.
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Make sure you put in a decent sized fan -- 80-100cfm vs the code-minimum 50.
Back/edge prime everything with an alkyd/oil primer.
Hey Dark,
Last year I was involved with adding wainscoting to a Historical house. What we did was use 3/4" T&G and then shot two coats of BIN primer per side on it. When we went to cut to length, spot prime with BIN again nail it up, cap and caulk. So far, no problems or call backs. I think everyone is defiantly pointing you in the right direction.
Jeremy
Like others have said, make sure you prime all surfaces of the material. If possible, get vertical grain material rather than flat grain. Make sure the material is stored indoors in a heated area of the house for a while (2 weeks...?) before cutting and installing it, especially if you buy it at a lumberyard where it's stored in an unheated storage building, which is likely at about 99% of yards.
If you want a top-flight job, you'll need to have the bead boards custom moulded out of 4/4 to 7/8", starting with CVG stock. If you are willing to accept some cupping, you should be able to buy decent so-called 1x bead boards that actually measure somwhere between 5/8 and 3/4, but figure your waste at 15-20% when you make up the order so you can cull the worst boards.
The boards need to be acclimatized on site before installation for a week or two, and they need to be pre-painted/stained/coated/whatever before installation, too. Plan on expansion gaps at corners, so a cove moulding or some other detail to cover them will be necessary. Install reefed-in tight if done in winter, and tapped-in if done in summer.
Also figure to hold the boards a good, solid quarter inch shy of the floor. This will allow for linear expansion and also prevent them wicking flood water off the floor through the endgrain should the children decide to have a splashing contest in the tub....
My method of installation is to rip out the existing wall surface and nail solid blocking at 21 and 42 inches from the floor in each stud bay (assuming a 42" height for the chair rail). Then re-sheath the wall with green gyprock, prime and paint that down to just below 42 inches (you'll probably need 2 or 3 colour coats to cover the green) and nail the beadboards over the gyprock into the blocking. Cap with the chair rail and install a top-moulded 1x6 base with a 15/16 QR shoe.
(N.B.: Do not forget to put protection plates over all wiring and plumbing running through the studs....)
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
with all that effort, do you still end up with the same gaps a year later? And I forgot to mention the cupping. This doesn't matter that much on a wall, but try it on a ceiling and see what it looks like in a year. The shadows at night make it impossible to miss.
As Andy can tell you, one of the big problems is that it will look great after it's installed, but it's what it looks like a year later that counts. It's not that these are not all sound methods. They definitely are the right way to do it. My point is that the wood is going to move regardless of what you do, and the HO should realize it before hand so he's not disappointed with the outcome. I still install bead board in my restorations, but I know that it's going to require some love a year later.
SHG
Shaggy
I do have to say that using the 3/4" stuff I installed seems to make a tremendous difference over that 3/8" crap.
Its been in my bathroom now for several seasons and there seems to be little movement in it compared to the traditional stuff I used in the past....I'll let ya know.
Be well
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life.—Robert Louis Stevenson
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
so next time we have a drink, I'm coming back to your house to test that 3/4 stuff. We'll see how it holds up. :-)
oiy vey....
Chardoney is chillin'The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life.—Robert Louis Stevenson
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
The main movement problems with T&G wall paneling in any uncontrolled environment--especially in humid places like baths--show up between the individual boards. Set too loose, and you start seeing gaps where the tongues pull out of the grooves in winter. Set too tight, and boards pop 'tents' every once in a while from expansion pressure. That's why I set the boards differently when installed in different seasons. In winter, I set them as tight as humanly possible, reefing them in with an old beater of a chisel...but leaving expansion space at each side of the wall. In a bathroom, where the walls are seldom longer than 6-8', X-joints at the corners are usually sufficient. In larger rooms, continuous runs of T&G wainscotting can present some interesting problems hiding the necessary space to allow for summer expansion. For a summer installation, I simply tap each board onto the tongue of its neighbor using the heel of my hand or a light swat with a rubber mallet and a piece of grooved scrap.
I've installed a lot of T&G in bathrooms over the past 10 years or so, including in my own place. Haven't had any callbacks, and my own basement bathroom is still looking good. No, it's not DFF...but it's not supposed to be, IMHO....
I have even installed some wood T&G ceilings in bathrooms with no problems. Part of this is I learned a while ago to oil the wood instead of poly'ing it. The other part is, unless you're lying on your back in bed or in a 7' bathtub, you don't tend to spend a lot of time looking up at the ceiling. Hard on the neck, and hard on the eyes....Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I don't get it. I'd think you'd want the boards tighter in summer, assuming they're "acclimated". Wood swells with summer moisture, shrinks in winter.
why is no one backing me up on Azek -- pure PVC and no cupping or expansion
better late than never
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Wood swells with summer moisture, shrinks in winter. Exactly. So if I set the boards tight in the summer, a couple of days later when the next thunderstorm cell moves through that area, I get a call from the HO--"The wainscotting is all popping off the wall!!!"
Contrariwise, if I set them too loose in the winter--the next time someone kicks up the woodstove a bit and forgets to fill the kettle on it, the HO calls to complain that she can see green gyprock through the gaps between the boards.
'Acclimatisation' is kind of a figure of speech; it does some good, especially if the stock has been stored in an exterior location where the humidex is far different to the installation site. But unless you (and the HO) are willing to wait a full three or four weeks, the wood isn't really 'married' to the site. And, yes, some bath reno's take that long or longer for the earlier work such as plumbing rough-in, substrate prep, and ceramic work--but would you want to be tripping over piles of 8' boards inside an 8x6 bathroom while you did all that other work?? And what do you suppose the effect of all the other substances (thinset, gyprock compound, etc.) is going to be on that wood? Lotta humidity in that stuff, and as they dry, that humidity transfers into the air, and into anything else around willing to soak it up. So I don't put total faith in acclimatising the boards.Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
ever used this?
Applications of IP Wood SatinBead Premium Plywood
Wainscoting
Interior wall paneling
Basements, bonus rooms, kitchens, porches, libraries, etc.
Commercial spaces such as restaurants and bars
Hot tub enclosures
"I will never surrender or retreat. " Col. Wm. B. Travis, The Alamo, Feb. 1835
Nope. I rarely use panel stock tricked out to resemble something it's not. That 'too perfect to be real' machine-produced look is a dead giveaway; it offends me æsthetically and I try to transmit that attitude to my clients.
That said, I understand that mean, vicious, commercial reality can sometimes force one's hand, so....Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
another stable wood is Mohangany. I have done three bathrooms with it. I could run upstairs and shoot a photo of one that has been in for three or four years now.
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True about the mahogany. Around here beadboard was traditionally cut from pretty much anything growing on the land that was cleared to build the house--and that meant a lot of maple, ash, and even some wild cherry 'way back before it got wiped out. White cedar too I almost forgot.
Now it's all white pine or 'imported' western red cedar from BC. If I want anything else, it's special-order-the-stock-and-custom-mill-it.... Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I used CVG fir on one too. probably got those photos on a disc someplace.
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We do it all the time. You need to prepainthe wood on all surfaces at least primer and fist coat, and then do the finish coat after it is nailed in.
Another option is to use a beaded board made by AZEC. It is a white extruded PVC that will not absorb moisture. The painters loved it on our last job ( sewing roomB)
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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Excellence is its own reward!
termonology question: Is beadboard the same as wainscotting?
I always thought it was.
Be well
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life.—Robert Louis Stevenson
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
no..bead board is just that, boards with a bead, edge only or center and edge.
wainscoy can be large raised panels, small flat panels, or a combination of things.
You can put bead board on a porch cieling, but not what is called (trad.) wainscot.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
It's a particular type of wood paneling frequently (in present day) used for wainscotting. The typical piece (old style) is maybe 3/4 x 3.5 inches. It's tongue & groove. The "bead" term is due to the machining done on the face -- typically two "beads", one more or less centered and one down one edge, so that when pieces are put together you have a bead about every 1.5". The "bead" is basically two parallel grooves about 1/4" apart, made with a tool that leaves the space in-between with a half-circle cross-section.
The stuff is typically painted. It was extremely common in old (ca 1900-1930) homes, especially farmhouses. Ceilings were often done with it, or entire rooms.
A major problem with it (in my view) is that the grooves really collect dirt, and it's hard to clean. And repeated paintings often fill in the grooves, leaving a sloppy look.
Beadboard to me is what you get by putting up tonge and groove boards molded with a half-round bead detail at one edge or at one edge and the center. The wood mills call one of the beadboard products E&CB ("edge and center bead"). You can buy plywood panels, and also an Azek product, that goes up in sheets, rather than individual T&G boards, to yield the same look.
The beadboard look can be done on walls, ceilings, and when done on the lower third of a wall, it is called wainscot.
Wainscot is any kind of wood paneling done on walls from the base trim up to the 33" (approximately) chair rail height. Wainscot treatments can be done in a stile and rail with panel look, vertical plank, beaded board, or many other ways.
I have done it in 150 year old weathered spruce barn siding, and it was one of my favorites.
Wainscot is the location of the "Waist board" placed to come up to your waist, and proctect against rubbs, spills and scrapes. It can be plain stock, beaded, plastered. raised panels or whatever fits.
So beaded boards are just one of the ways of placing wainscoting. Then it is topped/capped off with chairail.
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Speaking of beaded boarding. Here are some shots of a room we restored in the cannonball house here. The old boards were beaded and set to the wall with slots and slips rather than T&G. We did not have enough of the salvaged to make up the whole room so I went and found an antique molding plane and make more.
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Very nice Piff...interesting...I have the same thing in my LR that I uncovered under 325 yrs of paint.I'm sure its original.
I'll have to post some pic for you...no bead in it though and its horizontal on the lower third of the room.
Be a wall
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Piffin
Wainscot is the location of the "Waist board" placed to come up to your waist, and proctect against rubbs, spills and scrapes. It can be plain stock, beaded, plastered. raised panels or whatever fits. .
Best discription I've heard. I Always find it amussing when someone thinks wainscotting has to be bead board.
Doug
Now that explanation I never heard before in my life but I'll take your word for it being that you have a decent track record...lol.
So that means the plain wide pine horizontal stock in my LR is Wainscott...interesting.
Be learnin' sumpin' every day
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
This place had that too in the lower portion of three rooms. here is the only decent 'bwefore' puicture of the detailing. It had about twenty coats of paint too
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just wrote you a long post and it disappeared : (
anyway....condensed version....
Same shid here...didnt even know there was wood under there after 326 years of paint....the amt of paint was like fifty coats of plaster.
Anyway.after sanding one corner..( I should be dead in like ...uhh...ten years if I'm lucky...lol)..that was it.two more weeks for the rest of it between heat guns, belt sander, orbital, paint strippers...and there really wasnt all that much area...
Thing is with the sanders I just wanted to go no further than the paint....Didnt wanna FU the integrity of the cups, buldges, checks, dings etc etc...thats where the paint stripper came in.
Pretty awesome if you ask me although I "know" most won't even notice it and worse yet....somewhere down the line you can bet some genious will paint it again or worse yet rip it out and sheetrock the walls..
Heyyyy, thats life.
BE well bro....enjoy
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Wanna hear about geniuses and paint?
I grew up in a house that was started in 1832. Lots of V-Groove knotty pine paneling in it, though that was probably from the twentieth century. Anyway, before Dad bought it, it had been owned by a French-Canadian family who went back north for a couple years so they rented it to another Acadian family.
when they got back, they found that the renters had had goats and chikens living in the house with them, and that they had painted all those beautiful walls
PINK!
When I was growing up there, you could still see occasional flecks of pink in the knotty pine
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That is nice work. On that pic of the sink....is that a single control for the faucet?ixer valve? waht kind?
Neat look. Does it simplify the plumbing?
Thanks.
"I will never surrender or retreat. " Col. Wm. B. Travis, The Alamo, Feb. 1835
I had to go back and see which one you were refering to. That was in a camp for my plumber. He like old stuff. I don't know what kind of plumbing units heused, actually. It was a small job and I just sent a couple of my guys dfown to build it for him, I stopped in once a week.
Sorry that I can't answer this one.
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I put in wainscoting about 7 years ago in my small bathroom (8'x8') when I gutted and redid it. I backprimed it and topcoated with Benjamin Moore high gloss white. I didn't have a fan in the bathroom (probably a mistake) but I didn't have any issues up to the date I sold the house a few months back.
I did not read all of the prior 50 posts, but if no one mentioned it, they have a synthetic material for this purpose. Looks really great.
I put beadboard in my bathroom 2 years ago and love it. Make sure you back prime it with a good oil primer if it's going to be real wood and not an engineered product like MDF. It would be better to use the MDF as it won't move. Put a good exhaust fan in and you're fine. Enjoy