I live in a rural area where there is no routine patrolling by law enforcement. In the last two years there have been several thefts, break-ins, and acts of vandalism. Most of these events happened during the daylight hours when people were at work. Neighbors are spread out, so even those who were home didn’t see anything. They haven’t hit my place yet, but I know it’s coming.
My brother-in-law borrowed a D4 dozer to clear off some of his property down the road. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it ends up stolen.
I need tighter security around my property, but I’m not sure what the best options are. I own guns, but they’re usless if I’m not there to use them. I keep things locked up, but you know what they say, “locks are for honest people”. I even have a pretty good guard dog, but you can only expect so much from a dog.
Any ideas on this topic?
New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
Replies
A camera system hooked up to a DVR. Best thing would be making it look like it is attached to the DVR (a dummy DVR) but it is actually wired to a DVR hidden in such a way that thieves would not find it, such as in a crawlspace or behind a secret panel in the wall. This way the thieves will think they removed the recordings of them coming on their property but it was still recorded secretly.
It won't mitigate the fact that a theft will occur but hopefully they will be identified so that law enforcement can catch them quickly and get your stuff back. (Or you know who it is and can get it back PI style then turn them into law enforcement)
Oh and get the higher resolution cameras, the ones with 420 lines of resolution. The higher the better so more facial features can be distinguished. Place cameras in a way that they are only noticed when turning the corner or walking under an eave. Then they can't be shot out from a distance. Dummy cameras can be used for the ones in the open. Subterfuge is your friend. A setup will cost at least $500. Probably more like $1100 or so to do it right and craftily.
Handyman, painter, wood floor refinisher, property maintenance in Tulsa, OK
I'm in the same boat you are...but I'm retired so I spend most of my time around here anyways,
when we go away for a couple days we get one of my wife's friends to house sit......
I try not to create a pattern (like every day we're gone in the morn)
and I leave some stuff around for someone to steal....while hiding my good stuff.....
All the normal security stuff is a waste of effort IMO.......
You can only do so much legally.........I WISH I could set booby traps, but that's a guaranteed prison time.
I'm just starting to look into cell phone activated security system.
You get the call when it triggers. Not sure but tie in with the camera to see the picture if a false signal? Meter reader or some such.
Then the guns will help.
Maybe a dog? A well trained German Shepard or Doberman will usually deter the casual thieves. One guy I know lives on 35 acres and he makes it a point not to light up his place at night. Bright lights are like beacons to thieves in rural areas and it lets them see what's available. Put up motion-detector lights and that way the startle effect kicks in when they are triggered by someone who shouldn't be there.
What has seemed to help us has been a Crime Watch. Takes some organizing but we have pulled in our fair share of bad guys. When neighbors get hit, we go into Crime Alert mode with a telephone recorded message and web site. Neighbors on the perimeter put up crime alert signs so that everyone will know to check out what is happening.
I struggled with this problem when I lived out in the county. There were always cases of people breaking into houses in broad daylight.
I think the best thing is to have a fence and a locked gate, which was my solution.
Then you add cameras that won't be seen. Have them activated by a motion detector. This will not stop them, but will help in catching them.
It is also a good idea to have some type of motion detector camera covering the road in front of your access. They are not going to just stumble in. They will scope the place out a few times to find out when you are not home and if there is anybody else on the property.
My wife and I would walk our dogs on the gravel road in front of our property daily. Now and then we would see a pickup parked that we did not recognize. We would walk up to it, look directly at the license plate and talk to each other in a way that made it unmistakeable that we were remembering what we saw. At one point, we saw some bad-looking characters and I started to take my 5-shot Taurus .38 with me on our walks after that. Fortunately, I never had to use it.
1 dog is not enough. get 1 or 2 more.
And some guard geese. They don't have a lot in the way of threats to burglars, but they can make a lot of noise.
you might be on to something there, dogs are easily distracted by throwing little balls of hamburger at them, etc but geese are less easily distracted.
If a stranger walked into my yard, my dog would have no interest in the hamburger balls, but rather yours, if you know what I meanAll I ever wanted in life was an unfair advantage...
Any ideas on this topic?
Yup.
Thought we didn't have much worry, until 2 attempts on consecutive nights on my shop. Large windows, but they tried unsuccessfully kicking in a steel door. Clearly somebody who knew I'd never hear a car coming up the driveway (we live underground, further up the mountain). The second morning the police and I followed the oil drips back to the trailer up the road.
The police were disinterested the first morning when I called. The second morning I explained I only had one question. As I had a problem they couldn't help with, I had to solve it. Shotgun seemed reasonable, the question: should I call them afterwards or just fire up the backhoe? They were out in record time. And explained what I needed to legally shoot someone. And offered a disguised camera, that I rejected.
I installed a driveway sensor a ways down the 1/2 mile driveway. It alerts us in the house (zero false alarms!). Then there's the self-closing gate, which doesn't open unless you know what to do inside my shop. The shop got an alarm system, with shock sensors on the walls and windows. I once owned an alarm company, had almost everything as old stock.
About all you can do when police response is lengthy, and you're not around, is make it easier for the thieves to go elsewhere. We have erratic schedules, lock the gate infrequently. But more importantly, I put out the word about the driveway sensor and alarm.
The guys in the trailer already knew I was a pretty good shot. They haven't been back.
Your BIL isn't too bright if he doesn't disable the D4 when he's not there. I've got heavy machinery, it's not difficult. If they can't start it, unlikely it's going anywhere.
Daylight burglaries are the most common. The local parsonage here got hit twice, once during Sunday services. I installed an alarm, and put out the word. My friend in charge of maintaining the parsonage opined it was the best $250 (no labor) they'd ever spent. The parson and family moved back in. Mostly just makes enough noise to wake the dead, makes thieves nervous. Never know who might be driving by.
Never learned who was responsible. They didn't come back. Easier pickings elsewhere.
PAHS works. Bury it.
The shop got an alarm system, with shock sensors on the walls and windows.
What are shock sensors?
You had a lot of valuable info in your post, thanks.
Yes all good points but the real problem is if you are away at work a few days at a clip. A lot of people are. If there is no car in the drive, well, figure it out. The perps do.
My driveway is littered with old cars. Looks like someone is there all the time.
My driveway is littered with old cars. Looks like someone is there all the time.
Actually, the only cars I ever wash (DW washes hers that is kept in the garage every few weeks) are the 92 Blazer and the 94 S-10 parts cars (with good paint yet!) we leave in the driveway (drive thru turnaround, still space to drive by)
Do need to pump up the tires to keep up appearances though. The 94 had the gas cap laying on the ground a few weeks ago though, thinking of putting bleach in that tank <G>
Guess you guys have a good point about the cameras. Take a look at this:
Oklahoma Homeowner Captures Ransacking Crooks On Very Clear Video
http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=111603
New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
I think a camera's a good enough idea, but then you have to have cops who care enough to even look for the dudes.........in the first place. I'm totally perplexed as to what to do in my case........I've racked my brains trying to figure a trap that won't get me arrested (like a punji pit beneath the welcome mat) but have so far drawn a blank.........
I share the belief that camera's can be a helpful tool, but they still have two major shortcomings:
1. In most cases, they're not likely to get your stuff back. Even if the thieves are caught, your stuff will probably already have been sold or damaged.
2. In most cases, they're not going to deliver the kind of "justice" that you'll be expecting. Even if the thieves are caught, they'll likely be back on the street and on to their next victim while you're still working your #### off to pay for your own losses.
I'm convinced that the most important thing to focus on is preventing yourself from becoming a victim in the first place. Camera's might be a good deterrent for some people, but they're obviously not enough to qualify as a thorough "security" system.New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
I just wanted to qualify what I said a bit. I grew up in So Cal. around some pretty expensive neighborhoods.
Nice gates with a camera, a speaker box, and a security company sign are mandatory. There's a reason for that. It sets a standard or an idea in peoples heads right off the bat. These people mean business. It's like when you go in for a loan at the bank or talk to someone in authority. They have that big desk and they make you wait. It communicates that they are in charge. Waiting at the gate with the camera and speaker box does the same thing.
I moved from the area a long time ago because I don't like that stuff. But you have to give them credit. They have it figured out.
I'd suggest plantings that would deter intruders. Barberries, pyracantha (aka firethorn), honey locust (the thorny kind)...old-fashioned blackberries would work and give you some delicious eats...Washington Hawthorn is a nice tree. Roses also would work well...
Jason
You're welcome. Several different types of shock sensors, from WindowBugs that sometimes work, to the real ones that require a processor.
Mine were Litton, with a small gold ring inside that moves when shaken. The processor is adjustable, don't need a bird hitting the window to set it off. Litton made their first run out of something else, don't know what but they had a serious false alarm problem. The factory rep was swapping me out 2 for 1. Not in person, or I would have had my hands around his neck.
The second version worked fine, I just didn't appreciate their testing hardware on my clients. So I ended up with a pile, just needed a processor. Which feeds to the panel, whichever zone.
I used sensors on a Denver liquor store that had a continuing problem of stolen pickups being backed through the block wall. Once picked the wrong spot and moved the walk-in cooler over 2 feet. PITA Nobody was happy over that one.
Another time was protecting an office building drop ceiling for a surgeon who had a lawsuit going with a hospital. Anybody crawling around up there would trip it. It was the first line of defense, followed by several others. That guy and I were a great combination, my imagination/his deep pockets. He bought 3 elaborate systems, different needs according to location.
Sold the business when I left Denver, I'm out of date. The electronics are generally inexpensive. More fun to devise something, then figure out how to build it. I'm inclined toward self-closing gates that don't reopen or devices that automatically move large objects. PAHS works. Bury it.
>>I'm inclined toward ... devices that automatically move large objects.Like, say, RPGs? Or 155 mm DU shells?
Outside my experience, but if you've got a few, I'm open to experiment. Whatever DU is.
Non-explosive, high mass is what I was thinking. You knew that.PAHS works. Bury it.
DU=depleted uranium. About as high mass, non-explosive as you can get. Some people don't like the half-life of them layin' around though.
About as high mass, non-explosive as you can get. Some people don't like the half-life of them layin' around though
Well, they are pyrophoric, any particles that get knocked loose will tend to flash incandescent, which is good militarily for "secondary effects."
By definition, DU is depleted, which gets it down to about raw coal for emissivity.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
should I call them afterwards or just fire up the backhoe?
Dang, you, me and a few others here sure do think alike.
I'm a little more mild though, my very first thought about firing up the backhoe was driving up the road and crushing the trailer. Oh well, different methods.
LOL... well, don't know which brother(s) it was. That's Mama's trailer. She takes in any of her brood that can't currently find a woman to take care of him. Youngest son is early 40's. Maximum of 2 share a father. I've never met any of them.
They can't successfully manage their lives, but most are pretty good workers (for awhile). My shop's got sliding door lites as windows, easy to shatter tempered glass. Probably too drunk, chose to attempt the steel door.
Mad enough (or maybe still drunk) the second night to try it again. Bent the deadbolt the first night, I had to go through a sliding window to replace it. Second night I'd added a pair of 3/8" bolts to reinforce the door around the deadbolt- no further door damage from the foot traffic. I can only hope the foot suffered.
Was clearly someone who knew me, my house. I thought they had more respect, after I'd dug their septic inspection holes, got the well working with a new pump. Wrong. Here, the common euphemism is "rich bastard". Cracks me up, applied to anyone with more. Which is a very large population, including virtually everybody on this forum.
Just part of the local color. Which meant I needed to make some adjustments to live here. Not particularly difficult. DW really likes the driveway sensor, giving her a few minutes' notice of all arrivals.
I always call when I'm on the way up, tell her to put away the rifle. <G>PAHS works. Bury it.
I recently bought one of the Mossberg pumps with the short barrel and pistol grip. Decided to use the full stock. Think I will get a few sil targets and blow he11 out of them. Put them next to the big "everything here is marked" sign. Along with a sign "laid off and pizzed off but still have ammo".
Along with a sign "laid off and pizzed off but still have ammo".
We just went through some serious flooding in this area - the authorities asked that people put a white towel/sheet........out on their front doors to signify that they had left their house, that way they wouldn't have to worry about whether or not someone was inside.
I thought that if I did anything I'd take a big marker and write "ex vet, have a gun and not coming out"
No looter, even a crack head, wants to mess with an ex vet with a gun!
Doug
I got hit two weeks ago. Probably kids as they trashed the outside of
the house, smashed several windows entered and stole a few
guns and ammo. Didnt touch the tools and there are many.
No trashing of the interior . There is a close
by neighor but trees shield most of the view and it would
be impossible not to hear the noise. Cops said they were
uncooperative. Didnt want to get involved.
Well the answer is tough. You have to be home to shoot
them and they rarely come when you are home. You have
to go to work so sooner or later they make their move.
Cameras are the thing even though they can get expensive.
But any real thief simply puts on the ski mask and gloves.
Cops can do little. It is depressing but country crime has
been a fact of life since the dawn of time.
I think a majority of thefts are crimes of opportunity. If things are not out in plain sight and securely locked up with strong locks, you are much safer. Of course there are some pro thieves that can get through anything but most aren't that bright, equipped or ambitious.
Dogs and alarms are known to deter. Keyed both sides deadbolts make it difficult for them to make off with big items. Keeping records of your valuables makes it a lot easier to deal with the insurance companies, you might get lucky and actually recover something. Cameras are the biggest help in recovery and finding the crooks. Not leaving things like ladders or tools accessible is important or the thieves might use them to get in. Don't leave the keys or hide them in the dozer and lock the controls. Motion lights are good for the night time. Your insurance company will have a bunch of guidelines that you can use.
As far as shooting somebody, sounds like it could be a lot of paper work, maybe with a lawyer. I think I'd skip that scenario unless it was warranted. It's not likely you will be there, anyway.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
There is a show on the Discover channel called "It takes a thief."
http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/ittakesathief/ittakesathief.html
People basically agree to have their house broken into and trashed. They then get a top of the line security upgrade. Seems like the simple things like good locks, lighting, removing cover, a dog, and an alarm system work well. Basically you want to make your place look like such a PIA to break in to the crooks will go to the next place.
Also, it probably wouldn't hurt to leave fired shell casings or shotgun casings laying around the most likely points of entry. My good friend in upstate NY has an old 55 gallon drum that looks like swiss cheese from all the bullet holes right by the side door to his garage. Works much better than a welcome mat!
Edited 6/17/2008 12:39 am ET by BigDaddyJT
"Also, it probably wouldn't hurt to leave fired shell casings or shotgun casings laying around the most likely points of entry. My good friend in upstate NY has an old 55 gallon drum that looks like swiss cheese from all the bullet holes right by the side door to his garage. Works much better than a welcome mat!"That is funny!
"Also, it probably wouldn't hurt to leave fired shell casings or shotgun casings laying around the most likely points of entry."Nothing like advertising to those teenagers who are running around when you aren't at home... That you have guns inside...
Politics: the blind insulting the blind.
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
I forgot to add with the shell casings leave a lot of pig's (or any other animals) blood around. Especially splattered on the walls.I was half joking about the shell casings. I would think in a rural area it is a given that most people own firearms. If you are responsible you would be sure to have a good gun safe anyway. That would keep the teenagers or any crack heads away from your guns.
If you are responsible you would be sure to have a good gun safe anyway.
No teenagers, or younger, here. BIL was once admiring a rifle, mentioned that he assumed it was unloaded. Which was the first thing they taught me in NRA Safe Shooting, back in the 50's: always assume the opposite.
An unloaded or unavailable gun isn't worth much in this rural area.PAHS works. Bury it.
I'm thinking of a sound and light system. Take that driveway alarm and wire it to a light-up sign reading "WARNING: YOU ARE ABOUT TO MEET YOUR DEATH"
a simple sound system could say something like "exit the premises immediately or you will be shot"
As an extra line of defense, you could post warnings all over your property saying "Beware of booby traps"
Dogs are good too...trained cougars are better.True story: Long ago I had an employer who had a monterous part timber wolf dog. The dog was very mean and hated people. When it was young, it was abused by neighbors so it became angry towards anyone but the owners. During the day it lived in a burrow under his shop, it was chained up to the building using heavy transport chain. At night the dog stayed in the shop. Nobody got into the shop in the morning until the owner showed up. gk
That show is a crock of ... It's just an excuse for two punks to trash someone's house and get paid for doing so.
One of the best defenses imo is an electric gate. The gate is always closed so they don't know of you are home or not. When they drive by it is the first thing they see.
from there it could be a video camera at the gate pointed down at the driver side window with a little intercom box to speak into and call/ring for you.
These two things are costly but they make an impression right at the get go that you mean business.
How many volts do you recommend for the electric gate? I think a 240volt outta get their attention.
mwgaines
Location,location,location.
Property crimes are so rare in my neighborhood that it's all anyone talks about for months.. Typical crime rating is around 1.000 ours is around .023
However, signs of activety are your best defence in remote locations.. lawn well mown house neat and tidy. During the day if you aren't there leave a car in the driveway as if you are ready to come out.. move it at night. Don't park in the same spot, move it every day!
Visability from the road and motion detector lights down a driveway.. Interior lights on timers.. (include the TV the flickering lights of a TV is a real deterant). Bathroom light should pop on a couple of times in the middle of the night, then a kitchen light.. well imagine what sort of light pattern would indicate activety. Replicate it..
Form watch groups with neighbors.. if you have a spat of recent break in's it's likely one person or group desperate for money.. periodic patrols with cell phones to call the police.. Stop in with the police to registar your group so they recognize you quickly and respond accordingly..
" Location,location,location.
Property crimes are so rare in my neighborhood that it's all anyone talks about for months.. Typical crime rating is around 1.000 ours is around .023 "
Keep that under your hat or everyone will be moving in and it will be just like the place from where they left.
funkin' gonuts
gonuts,
I think the average priced home is in excess of a million and if you want on the lake it's nearly another million. Not worried about a flood of newbies, if they can afford that buy-in price they aren't going to be stealing TV's and VCR's <grin>
One way to cut down on potential thieves is having a P.O. Box address and receiving all mail there.
If your home address is unknown and untraceable, you've eliminated one more way for thieves to track your daily agenda and hit your house when you're away.
A gun, dogs and an attitude.
Keep a couple of 12 gauge, 8 shot, riot pump shotguns around. Shoot 'em off.........alot.........word gets around......plus they're a lot of fun to shoot.
Dogs......not dog........have to be trained not to take food from just anyone. And then they can't eat it 'till you give the command. Also, it's a good idea to have one word commands that don't relate to humans......mine sit when I say "jump" I also have commands for down, eat, stop, etc......... I won't give 'em to ya all because I don't want Mike Smith to come down here and hurt my doggies.
It's not hard to train them, just gotta do it from the start and be consistant. They don't have to "attack dogs", hell, mine are couple of 90lb Labs. But if you mess with my wife or kids, they'll eat your liver. I trained 'em to walk my kids to bus stop and sit w/ them. I could go on and on.........
We also use a number of driveway pressure signals along with a couple of motion detectors. Think we got 'em from Northern. We got 'em hooked up to outdoor lights (for them) and a couple inside (for us)
The bad guys know all this stuff and leave us along.........after all, they are odds-makers.
Keep it simple.
Don't own anything worth stealing.
;-)
Dang !!!You beat me to it.Glad I read the rest of the thread before responding...;o)
Politics: the blind insulting the blind.
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
Put in a security system to start with. And a good siren and strobe. Number one it freaks the thief out. Number two if you are returning home it lets you know that someone has broken in and still may be there.
I'm in a hurry to get out the door so I'll have to get to the cameras later. One thing with recording. Don't worrry about motion detector cameras. A good DVR will dump images without motion so you only have pictures of interest to review. I'll try to some up with a better post on the subject tonight. I'm putting in a security and video system in my house in the next few weeks and do commercial systems for a living so I know a little about it.
Ghey unicorns????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-VBpLQSPD8&feature=relatedA few years ago a friend of mine installed a shot gun without any lead in it and tied the trigger with a string to the door. The intruder left rather quickly when he heard the blast.A lady I know who does surveillance work told me to put fish hooks on some nylon string just slightly below the top of the window so that if someone entered through a window the intruder would quickly get caught.
Edited 6/19/2008 2:42 pm by gb93433
Gunner,Interested in seeing your writeup when you get a chance.Thanks++++++++++++++++++
What goes up must come down unless it gets into a stable orbit.
Glad you reminded me, I lost track of this. Placement is the key. Lower angled shots are better then high straight on pics. With the low angled shot you have a better chance of getting a pic of the guys face if he's wearing a hat. If it's high and head on you don't have much of a chance of getting a good picture for court. Another thing that pizzes prosecutors off is incorrect date and time stamps, or no date and time stamp at all. Also always spring for the auto iris lens. Much better with changing light conditions.
I'm going to set my system up to cover entrances to my house and garage. I want to record them pulling up in the driveway or coming through the back gate. I also want to record them walking into the house or garage. What I'm going to do is mount a covert cam covering the interior entrance of each door. I don't want to record those pics 24 hours a day for obvious reasons so I'm going to set my alarm trips on my DVR to take a pic only when a door is opened.
I'm going to get lazy with my alarm system though. All my door and window contacts are going to be wireless. It costs more but I get it all at cost anyway so that helps keep the cost down. I just don't want to screw around drilling all those doors and windows. And I have a low roof line so it really sucks crawling around in my attic. That and I'm not crazy about drilling perfectly good windows anyway.
That covers the basics anyway. I have to get to bed. Any questions ask away.
Remind me tomorrow and I'll tell you why I feel safer living in town than in the country.
Ghey unicorns????
http://www.planetunicorn.tv/
Thanks Gunner,The biggest question I have remaining is whether you have recommendations for brand names and models, both for the cameras and DVRs.Thanks again,
Ken++++++++++++++++++
What goes up must come down unless it gets into a stable orbit.
I don't think they sell the real good DVR'S to the public. One that I really like is Lanex. Very reliable and easy to use. I'm not sure if the public can buy them though. one that you can buy is Honeywell. I really like their options and you get real good value for your dollar. Honeywell makes good cameras too. As well as Pelco.
The one achilles heal in the DVR world is they have to write to the hard drive constantly. So unless you have an industrial grade one that has four hard drives that either masks or stripes itself then you have to keep a close eye on them. I'm going to have mine built by a guy that I work with. He used to work for a shop that built them. Now he works for us and has been in the field side of the business long enough to know what works and what doesn't. I don't know how I'm going to handle the hard drive issue though. That's the only thing that bothers me. I'm probably making too much out of it.
Ghey unicorns????
http://www.planetunicorn.tv/
I recommend a roll your own approach if you're comfortable with building your own machines. Zoneminder is great software and free, and has way more features than most commercial security DVRs. http://www.zoneminder.comSince you'll want to leave the image processing up to the camera server itself, you'll want something with a relavity beefy CPU, something in the 1.6+GHz range, and a chunk of memory, 1GB would be fine. Next disk space is important, and I'd install your OS on a seperate drive, and create a RAID1 for your images out of a couple 500GB drives. This will give you weeks and weeks of space for events. Then, if you've got broadband, I would look at a way to send your events offsite (the camera dvr isn't going to do you any good if it itself gets stolen). Saving the events off to a remote site is highly recommended, you could do it with Amazon S3, or any similar service. Next cameras are important. Even though you can get many with built in IR illuminators for 'night-vision' they're not anywhere near as good as the specs would imply. Figure half the range they advertise and if that works for you, then they might be fine to use. Your money might be better spent by installing motion sensitive floods and buying a more sensitive camera (the lowest lux you can find, unfortunately they seldom quote the true unassisted lux of the camera if it has builtin IR illuminators). Some people like network cameras, but you'll find a much better variety of cameras if you stick to regular cameras. I perfer the image quality of CCD image sensors over CMOS sensors, and the bigger the sensor (usually 1/4" or 1/3") the better the sensitivity. The greater horizontal resolution of the camera the better as well, usually advertised as 420TV lines or 380TV lines if you're dealing with non-networked cameras. For network cameras, you'll mostly be recording at 320x240 for size/bandwidth reasons, but if you can get a camera that records at native 640x480 (i.e. not interpolated), it's a nice option to have. I'd stay away from wireless cameras of both varieties. In all, it can be a challenge to setup, but you'll end up with a far better system than a commerical system. I'm currently have one running at my house (second break in in 12 months) with two cameras similar to this: http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=CM802CA&cat=VID I have a four port capture card in my camera server, so I'll be adding a couple of these: http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=OUTDOOR-CAM&cat=VID as I've found that the first cameras need to be mounted in sheltered location if outside, they're not really waterproof.Z
Thanks much, appreciate the thoughts and specs.
Ken++++++++++++++++++
What goes up must come down unless it gets into a stable orbit.
front door mat says " my dog Flunked obedience training but hes home now
20 ft away on the yard entry fence the sign reads "guard dog lives here"
my 120 lb bouvier dosent like strangers and hes the sanest person on the property
I like to stick with a reputation of being a no nonsence kind of guy(small town) and if that doesn't work the 120lb german shepeard says"try me". Never been messed with even though I'll leave portable tools right in the drive for days
All I ever wanted in life was an unfair advantage...
Motion sensors wired to speakers and a recording. Male voice.
"Shhhh Cletus, don't scare him off. I haven't had sex since that last guy"
don't forget the duelling banjo sound track
There ya go. Bondage gear in the window. Dueling banjos.Squeeeel.
There ya go. Bondage gear in the window. Dueling banjos
Only problem with that is that 16y/o huffers may haveonly seen the bowlderized, network, versions of Deliverance or Pulp Fiction, and might not "get it" as referenced. (Alternately, the sniffers may not have enough firing neurons to engage in that much rational thought anyway.)
Rural security in my are is doubly tough since best design calls for deep porches to shade the walls and windows from the sun. That means easy access to windows and doors in a place where "people" might naturally be seen (so passers-by would not notice anything unusal, unless they knew the residents really well). So, around here, it's more a case of access control. Make the entry drive not look like it goes any where. Gate it part way in. Double gate it, too, which can make hoodlums nervous when that first gate closes behind them (the one the UPS man knowns the code to open, etc.)
I may (or may not) know of a drive with has a "teeter-totter" bridge spanning it. Know some folks who pasture their brahma bulls in the front yard when they leave for a stretch . . . I've heard alpaca and mohair make good sentries, too--but the goats chew the grass too short, and alpaca are rude to everybody (both will pay for themselves with proper husbandry, too).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
A booby trap that banks use is to provide thieves with exploding die packs disguised as money bundles. These are set on a timer. The die does not wash off clothes or skin. Dunno how you can get a hold of some.
Set up similar devices (discharge nozzles) at likely forced entry points. When combined with video recordings, the police will have something obvious to look for.
Die packs usualy leased. And they work on a perimeter deal. Once you step out of the perimeter they go off. They are pretty nasty though. We were swapping out undercounter one night. The manager wanted to get rid of one. I wrapped it in a garbage bag and locked it in the steel cabinet. Then we ran it out to the trailer and put it up front. We couldn't go in there the rest of the night. The tear gas was really bad as well as the die everywhere.
Ghey unicorns????
http://www.planetunicorn.tv/
And they work on a perimeter deal.
Couldn't you hand it to the new guy and tell him to take it over to that dumpster across the street! Sort-of an initiation thing?
Now that good clean fun.......
Doug
The guy that hauled it out is a mouthy know it all. I wrapped it up, put it in the bottom cabinet and casualy mentioned what I had done. He got the buld of the tear gas on the way to the trailer. It's some real nasty stuff.
Ghey unicorns????
http://www.planetunicorn.tv/
tell me more about this 'teeter-totter' bridge spanning a drive - that you might not know about..."there's enough for everyone"
tell me more about this 'teeter-totter' bridge spanning a drive
Well, dear Horatio, let me then expound in febrile imaginings, with as much substance as long-lost Yorick anon.
We could, in or out of our cups, imagine a deck, about 10' x 20' of a wood planked (3x8 DoT planks) metal frame with channel stock below. This is balanced upon some drill stem and casing for a pivot point. Under each end of the span, transverse to the pivot axis are water lift bags (water rams needed too much maintenance in place).
The dead level position is set using a magnetic limit switch, which is "keyed" with a removable magnet. Pressing a remote sets a water pump to transfer water from one lift bag to another, and until the limit switch is reached. "Hot wiring" the pump motor will tend to only cycle the lift bags from one extreme to the other.
If such a thing existed, it would be a great deal of work, not nearly as elegant, say, as pipe fencing of a given height with matching gates are either end. That is unless a person already had a warehouse and a couple barns' worth of house moving gear laying about.
Shoot some stock "K" rail and pipe support arches with heavy gauge chainlink trained over with a sturdy vegetation to frame a nice spot for the FedEx or UPS truck to stop and leave packages would be elegant in more ways than merely the engineering effort, for what that's worth.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
One of my favorite places for kayaking the land owner put in one of those speaker deals. If you walk back into the woods is says "ATTENTION, YOU HAVE VIOLATED THE PERIMETER, THE POLICE HAVE BEEN ALERTED, LEAVE IMMEDIATELY" Over and over and over real loud. Now I just put in on the other side of the river and paddle across and throw rocks at the sensor. What a pain. But effective. 'lectric gate is nicer. I've seen some cool lever activated gates too if you don't have electricity at the end of the driveway. Rube Goldberg devices ------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Makes you kinda nervous when someone refers to their property line as "the perimeter".
when someone refers to their property line as "the perimeter".
Not so much as when the fenceline that the "perimeter" warnings occurs has tanglefoot and a knee-high marker wire about 25-50m back, to math the notations on the fence that said fence is 25 or 50m inside the property line . . .
Or, two rows of fences can be disconcerting, ordinary live stock with a tall wildgame one inside that--not the tires tracks on the firebreak road between so much as patrol animal tracks that can make a persons' hairs stand on end . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Psychological barriers work...
I remember exploring down a narrow country road....till I noticed the sign nailed to a nearby tree - a crudely painted black skull. Hmmm, think we've gone far enough in this neighborhood.
I guess it's fun fantasizing about interesting ways to blow away any free-lance socialists that decide to practise their philosophy on your property, but the truth is, sneak thieves are lazy, cowardly, and opportunistic. If you can make it substantially harder or more dangerous for them to burgle your place than it would be to burgle the place next door, they will go next door. So it's mostly a matter of keeping slightly ahead of the Joneses.
Dogs, alarms (monitored by a central alarm agency), wrought-iron or steel-shutter security gates on all windows and doors, driveway gates, double-cylinder locks, motion-sensor lighting, camera systems...any of these things can be beaten--and, given enough time and effort, all of them can be beaten. But the crack-head or drunk looking for quick cash (and even most non-addict burglars) isn't going to go to all that trouble. He will look somewhere else if there is anywhere else to look.
So put as many obstacles in his way as you can, of all sorts, and try to cultivate a reputation for being just crazy enough that the local slimeballs don't want to mess with you.
If you make it work to rob you--and dangerous work at that--you remove the prime incentive to this type of crime, which is to get money quick and easy without working.
After all, it's not like you're up against Robert Wagner, Fred Astair, or David Niven....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Robert Wagner, Fred Astair, or David Niven....
I get Rober Wagner and David Niven but Fred Astair?
Doug
I get Rober Wagner and David Niven but Fred Astair?
View Image
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t44fuXGDlM0
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
make it a captive thing to deter thieves....
they come to rob you....
they stay forever, leaving is not an option or untill you pike the remains out at the front gate...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
make it a captive thing to deter thieves....
they come to rob you....
they stay forever,
Lots of fly paper? Quicksand pits? A moat filled with honey?
Actually, a 6'-deep moat--filled or not--ought to be about as effective against hit-and-run thiefs as just about anything else. Pull up the drawbridge, and they are not gonna drive anything across it except a helo....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Lots of references to security cams and sensors, but will these actually _prevent_ a theft? If they know you're gone, and they know it will take a minimum of 20 minutes for the sheriff to show up, all the cameras and alarms in the world won't stop them from taking easily located valuables. Remember too that for the most part, the police don't give a flip about property crimes, and the bad guys hardly ever get the punishment they deserve.IMO perimeter deterrence is the only thing that makes much sense. Give them more than one hoop to jump through and they will probably choose to go somewhere else.
If you're gonna go for perimeter defense, you have to decide what your permeter should be. Should it be at the property line? You need a moat or ditch and/or fence/wall plus gates/drawbridge.
OTOH if you designate the building wall of the house or barn as the perimeter, you need to make it resistant to any easily carried demolition tool such as a battery-operated recip or a chainsaw. Or just a 16-lb sledgehammer. In which case, you're talking about a concrete blockhouse, seems to me.
Look at medieval castle design for inspiration. Don't laugh: Sir Ector et alie faced an almost identical problem to the one under discussion: How to defend one's own against baddies when ya can't count on help from the cops....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I don't disagree with what you say, my point was that recording the bad guys stealing stuff is not much of a deterrent. Even if the a$$holes are later caught by the police and tried, the chances of them going away to prison for a long time are slim. IMO the money spent on video monitoring equipment and sophisticated alarms might be better used to beef up points of entry.
In some parts of East Texas they would never get convicted no matter what kind of video, still shots, or opther evidence you had on them because half the jury woul be relatives.
In most parts of West Texas they would be asking, "why didn't you just fire up the back hoe?"
"Never pick a fight with an old man. If he can't beat you he will just kill you." Steinbeck
IMO the money spent on video monitoring equipment and sophisticated alarms might be better used to beef up points of entry.
A chainsaw makes a 'point of entry' anywhere the crook wants one.
The facts are bleak, but they are these: You cannot prevent a determined person from breaking into a building. What you can do is persuade him it ain't worth the trouble. Focus on that.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
"A chainsaw makes a 'point of entry' anywhere the crook wants one."When was the last time you heard of thieves using a chainsaw in a residential burglary? They want to get in and get out quietly within 3-5 minutes because they assume there is an alarm system. They don't break windows because cuts leave blood that can be traced to them by DNA. They look for unlocked doors, windows, doors without deadbolts. You can have a camera in every room and the best alarm system in the world but if they grab the stuff and scoot before the police arrive, what good is it?Out in the country they might be a bit more forceful and noisy, but I doubt they would chance the noise and commotion of a chainsaw.
Yes, but if not a chainsaw, it will be a battery operated recip saw. Or in the case of vinyl homes with r-board & drywall a utility knife will do.If they want it, they will find a way to get it. Just try to keep from being the lowest hanging fruit, so to speak. If I was a criminal, and saw a house with a 6 foot fence around it, with rose bushes planted near the windows, and the house next door had nothing, you can bet which house I am going to.Now, if the house next door doesn't appear to have any valuables, but I can see your 50" lcd tv through the window, I might be more apt to try your house.Also, a poorly designed alarm system that is constantly calling the police will eventually be ignored. Even on good response times, a smash and grab thief will be gone before the cop can even get the call.
Edited 6/24/2008 2:31 pm by nater
In West Texas they don't use chainsaws....just battery drills..
Several years back, the bad guys used a battery drill with a driver socket and backed out the sheetmetal screws. Then they just bent the 3' wide R-panel and carried away all they could loadup....
The owner didn't know a thing until his back alley neighbor was taking out the trash and called and told him....
It's just a plain pity that rattlesnakes or copperheads aren't doing their job that late at night!!!!!! ;>)
Bill
Seems like there would be a way to secure those screws from the inside at least 5-6 feet up.I've seen what you describe at least one other time. A bunch of crooks went into a beer warehouse that way."Never pick a fight with an old man. If he can't beat you he will just kill you." Steinbeck
Lots of good info here.
One important thing not mentioned yet is putting pressure on our judges and police to do their jobs properly. The attitude seems to be that we have to accept a half-way investigation by cops and when someone is caught we have to allow our judges to give light sentences.
Most B&E bad guys are only caught after they commit many B&E's and their luck runs out. Crooks know this. When they are caught they deal away the sentence by confessing to other B&E's. Sounds crazy, but that's it. If you don't think this happens, go sit in your local courtroom for a couple of weeks and watch it happen. The judge accepts the deal hashed out by the prosecutor and defence lawyer and rationalizes it by saying, "Oh he confessed, He's seen the error of his way".
Prosecutors hate prosecuting trials and defence lawyers hate trials because their ability to do their job is on public display. They like to say they are saving the justice system the expense of a trial. Sure, sometimes the cops do a lousy job gathering evidence and documenting everything and a deal is best. In those cases the cops should be taken to task. Prosecutors like slam dunk trials, but if arguments over case law or accused rights are likely, they want to deal. Unfortunatly we pay our prosecutors minimal so the brightest lawyers are generally on the defence team where the money is.
We also have to make sure our judges sentence properly. There are some judges who do an excellent job and sentence properly. Some judges like to say " This is a fair and just sentence". Too often it's only fair to the bad guy. Where I live the max sentence for B&E and stealing a toaster is 14yrs in prison. 14 days is probably the norm.
If the victim would just keep informed about his case and what the cops are doing about it, this puts pressure on them to work on the case. If the bad guy is caught the informed victim will know and can then start talking to the prosecutor about whats happening at that end. The prosecutor will be reluctant to make an easy deal if the victim is in touch. Showing up in court for sentencing puts pressure on the judge and helps prevent the prosecutor from succumbing to a last minute deal.
Most B&E guys in my area commit dozens of B&E's and have been to court many times and just got their hands slapped.
If the system lets the bad guy off easy, stir up a stink. Write the Governor or the President or the Prime Minister. Start a petition if you have to. REMEMBER, YOU ARE THE VICTIM, DON'T LET THE SYSTEM REVICTIMIZE YOU!!
The only thing I really want (and I'm being serious here cause I know the cops are undermanned/underfunded/over fed etc.) is for them, if they can't help me in my problem.......to just butt out and allow me to handle it on my own................Don't arrest ME for protecting my own damn property..........To catch a rat you gotta set a trap......period.
if they can't help me in my problem.......to just butt out and allow me to handle it on my own................
That was exactly the attitude of my county cop, when they finally decided to send one out. Explained Va law very clearly. I guess he knew what he was talking about. Certainly was in agreement that I had a problem that they couldn't help with, even though he and I followed the oil drips to the trailer. For show (apparently), he photographed the tire prints.
Possibly if a theft had occurred they'd have done more.
We also discussed the situation of a woman a few miles down the road who did shoot a guy at 4 AM. Police were fine with it, the family of the dead guy wasn't. Not a small problem. She's still living there, don't know what it cost her.
I'd prefer something other than confrontation. And in fact haven't had any more problems after installing electronics, and advertising it in the community. PAHS works. Bury it.
""(and I'm being serious here cause I know the cops are undermanned/underfunded/over fed etc.) "" I am glad someone finally pointed out that the basis for the "cops won't do anything " complaint lies with the people who pay for the cops.
Spend more on them , hire more of them and then if they have enough manpower to actually have time to deal with property crimes they will.
Another case of the fingers of blame , one pointing out three pointing at ourselves.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
We have something like three sheriff deputies in this county on duty at one time.....and it's a large area with a lot of secondary roads, etc.....and I live pretty much in the boonies.I don't expect one to come screaming in here on notice......It's the criminal rights issue that makes me crazy........But they have changed here in Ohio...starting in Sept you cannot be sued for shooting a person robbing your house (and other stuff) ....
Back when I lived 10 miles form the nearest town and at the edge of the county line I saw a sheriffs deputy on my road once in 12 years.
Prior to that I lived at the end of a gravel road 6 miles from town and the only time we ever saw cops was when the neighbors complained about the loud music from them "hippies" at that commune. Usually 3 cars with 2-3 cops in them each time, never did more than roll down the drivers window and ask us to keep it down. Nice guys, but timid though, we always asked if they wanted to get out and walk around for a bit and they always refused. Just down the road a piece where there was a junction of 3 roads there was a certain time of the year that there would be 3-4 cops on a daily basis. Hunting season.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"hippies" at that commune.............HA!...best time in my life.............still just an old hippie who don't know what to do..............the 'old' went commercial and I want nothin to do with the new...:)
So what kind of tax increase do you propose to pay for the extra cops at higher salaries who will keep us all safe and secure?
"Never pick a fight with an old man. If he can't beat you he will just kill you." Steinbeck
I am not in the business of being a Law enforcement accountant. i can barely figure my own taxes out.
But Put a number up and I will consider voting for it. Have here for years, schools , parks, roads, fire as well.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I take it you pretty much never met a tax you didn't like. <G>
"Never pick a fight with an old man. If he can't beat you he will just kill you." Steinbeck
As long as the monies collected go toward what I perceive to be the common welfare , no I haven.t Now don't ask about taxes for things like pro ball stadiums, golf courses and a long list of other items.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I think it's pretty universal that property owners have the right to protect their property. The catch is finding the bad guy committing the offence. The downfall of setting traps etc is that you might accidentally catch the wrong person. A simple example is that I store a nice heavy duty ladder under the overhang of my house. The heavy duty ladder is a new one because the old one was stolen. I was angry and wondering how to secure the new one when a neighbor came by to tell me he had borrowed the old one while we were away. Now i have two ladders.
"I think it's pretty universal that property owners have the right to protect their property."Sadly in some states that is NOT the case at all. You, a property owner with a couple of bucks in the bank, can be hassled more than the criminals by our "justice" system if you dare harm a hair on their pointy little heads while they are stealing your stuff. "The downfall of setting traps etc is that you might accidentally catch the wrong person."And that is why it's illegal -- Google "man trap laws". You cannot set up anything designed to intentionally harm another person, even a thief or trespasser.
Well, now that I've read all of your replies, I've come to the conclusion that the best defense against theft is a heavily fortified compound, satellite surveillance, precision guided thermo-nuclear devices...and a backhoe.New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
the backhoe being the most important
"Never pick a fight with an old man. If he can't beat you he will just kill you." Steinbeck
or having nothing worth stealing in the first place.........and the way things are going, I'm gonna be free in no time at all....Yahoo!
you are right on every count.
Unfortunately, we find it more satisfying to talk about booby trapping our places with amazing creative devices and creating perimeter defenses and big dogs, etc to taking responsibility for our safety as citizens and taking control of our government.
But that is still only part of it. If you are 10-20 or more miles from any responding law enforcement and the 'neighbors' are more a part of the problem than the solution to crime in the area you still have to do something to lessen the risk.
This thread has provided some really good suggestions of all the above - including yours.
"Never pick a fight with an old man. If he can't beat you he will just kill you." Steinbeck
When was the last time you heard of thieves using a chainsaw in a residential burglary?
Oh, about a week or two ago....
Dunno where you live, but around here there are plenty of places where you could test a small nuclear bomb between Sunday 10pm and Friday 3pm. No neighbours in residence for well over a mile in any direction, and the cops are 20 miles away and don't give a snit anyway.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
A lot of detail here. We're not talking about the CapnMac compound are we.:)
We're not talking about the CapnMac compound are we
Shoot the only compound I own is some compound-action pruning shears <g>
Somehow 0.377 acres bordered with two roads and three compromised property lines doth not a compound make <g> . . .
Done some work for people who meaasure porperty by the Section and not acres, though . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
there is a very long list of "stuff" you haven't included in yur perimeter line....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
there is a very long list of "stuff" you haven't included in yur perimeter line
Well yeah, but I see no reason to re-write FM 31-55 other than to update it to current TraDoc.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
note where the thefts occured...
right under everybody's noses
http://www.krdo.com/Global/story.asp?S=8536216
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Police say the money from the stolen copper is possibly being used to buy drugs, Sergeant Frasier says, "we've made some arrests in the past where theft of copper is linked to illicit drugs."
POSSIBLY, is he kidding!
Doug
DougU
I don't know, being ambitous enough to get a sawzall and going somepace to steal copper seems like a lot of work for a drug user to go to. I mean the time alone involved seems longer than most junkies have the attention span for..
I mean you have to get there undetected somehow, find the brass valves, saw them off for $5-8 worth of copper? Then go to more and more places each time increasing the chances of being caught. Not to mention the hauling them to a scrap yard and selling them.
It seems to me likely to be someone who knows where to look for them and has an idea of who will be home and when..
Maybe the installer? His laborer or someone at least familar with both the area and how valuable they are..
I don't know, being ambitous enough to get a sawzall and going somepace to steal copper seems like a lot of work for a drug user to go to.
You might be right Frenchy, the drugie would have hocked that sawzall by now anyhow!
Doug
Thieves are like anybody else, they too, like a little bit of a challenge."Coming to recognize you are wrong is like coming to recognize you are sick. You feel bad long before you admit you have any of the symptoms and certianly long efore you are willing to take your medicine." -Charlton Heston.
intrepidcat.
Oh I'm not saying they aren't thieves.. I'm saying that the chances are it's not druggies.. Druggies want the easy way out, chemically enhamced as it were.. I just think that's too ambitious for a druggie
with some druggies I've seen the only challenge that they will take up is to see how they can get into a place to steal something.Even if they think nothing is there, if it looks like a challenge they will try to see if they can get in, maybe just for practice.."Coming to recognize you are wrong is like coming to recognize you are sick. You feel bad long before you admit you have any of the symptoms and certianly long efore you are willing to take your medicine." -Charlton Heston.
possibly....
could been an alkie instead...
besides... the sawzall was MTL stolen...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Yep, battery operated recip saws have become a thief's best tool."Coming to recognize you are wrong is like coming to recognize you are sick. You feel bad long before you admit you have any of the symptoms and certianly long efore you are willing to take your medicine." -Charlton Heston.