Is the Bosch CS20 a good saw for the e-z smart system? I’ve been putting off getting the e-z smart, because us left coasters only have worm drives. But I think I’m gonna break down soon and get one, so I’ll need a saw to go with it. What do you recommend?
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles Greene
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
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yes, it's fine
i have one set up with a PC ( right hand )..... and i have a Bosch 8 1/4 set up...
if i only had one set up .. i'd go with the 8 1/4
i think there is a consensus that the best saw for an EZ guide is the Hilti.. i forget the model number
Since I just spent a couple of days reading up on this, the Hilti 267 is the present favorite.
I ordered the EZS and am going to try my Milwaukee on it.
There's a sale on until Dec 2 if that makes you move any faster. If you are interested in a slightly used version, this guy is selling his.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=69472
Thanks! - I've emailed to inquire (couldn't see his pictures). Appreciate the heads-up.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
No problem. I loaded the photos onto my server for you.http://www.fatroman.com/FHB/ez1.JPG
http://www.fatroman.com/FHB/ez2.JPG
http://www.fatroman.com/FHB/ez3.JPG
http://www.fatroman.com/FHB/ez4.JPG$200 for the rails and the square is a pretty good deal.
OK, I don't know what all that stuff is, but if you say its a good deal, I'll go for it! I've followed several of the threads here, and feel like its a legitimate tool with practical jobsite use for me. Dino himself used to post here quite a bit, but he left when some people made a stink about him posting answers to questions on his product.
I'm assuming the two guides connect, so that I could cut an 8' sheet lengthwise if I wanted?
Thanks!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Yep, the 2 lengths together are a tad over 8'.
Yer be glad you bought it.
Yeah, I'm hoping it's a legitimate tool :)The rails are joined with the connectors and with those 2 rails you'll be able to cut a full 8' sheet, or run a crosscut using just one.I ran across that listing about 1 day after I had already ordered. You'll save a bit more than you would if you bought the rails & square new with the sale, around $40.Actually from his photos it looks like there are some extra anti-chip edges as well. Those apparently will wear out eventually, but are easily replaced.
<<<$200 for the rails and the square is a pretty good deal.>>>With the current 15% off sale from the manufacturer the price new for the 100" rail package and square is $238. $200 is not such a good deal for used.
Last I looked, the consensus was for the $300 Hilti or the new Makita Mag.
Tried emailing Dino a couple times, but, got no response. He must be busy these days.
I have a PC that I use with my set up, but, it will not cut through a door or a 2x4 on the rail. I believe both the Hilti and the Makita will. That is why I would go with one of those.
Good luck,
Shoe
Will the makita mag cut an exterior door on an ez guide? My old makita depth lock is getting scary... I love the saw, but it's time to put it to rest, dang. Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
I don't know. I heard that it would cut a 2x4. Like I said, I emailed Dino a couple times for more info, but, no reply.
I imagine someone at the Sawmill Creek forum might know.
Good luck,
Shoe
Most of the mag's I have seen in the stores don't have the brake, there is a model with a brake though.
Never had a saw with a brake... I'm using a Milwaukee tilt-loc on the ez now... it will cut a 2x if I bear down... can't get it to cut square to the work piece consistently, though... so, I'm shopping.Does a braked saw chew up the anti splinter thingies on the rails? Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
Don't know if a braked saw chews up the anti chip inserts or not. I use a PC on mine with no brake. Dino strongly reccommends saws with brakes, that is why I mentioned that there are two different models of the new Makita Mag.
From Dino's comments he got into the ez-smart system because he does not think that table saws are very safe.My guess is that his main suggestion for use of a braked saw was for safety..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
When he used to post here he said it was for the safety, the chipped guide edges, and speed. Thanks for mentioning the safety aspect.
Billy
The braked saws chew up the edges less than non-braked. The main cause of chewing up the edges is removing the saw from the guide while the blade is spinning. Nothing worse than standing there waiting for the blade to spin down before you move anything -- or chewing up the edge because you didn't wait.
Billy
I was wondering if the brake made the wobble as it abruptly stopped... I've gotten pretty good at tipping the spinning blade off the rail, but a brake would be nice. Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
I use both the Hilti saws, 167, 267, both have brakes and I wouldnt go back to a saw without one!
I cant stand a circular saw without a break now. Never had one for 30 but.......
Forgot to mention, I dont see any wear in the white strip due to the break.
Doug
Edited 12/1/2007 7:49 pm ET by DougU
When I first got the ez setup, I used a Milwaukee tilt-lok. It worked great but I wanted/needed a bit more depth of cut. I've got the Bosch 8 1/4" now. It works fine too, a bit heavy maybe but since it's always riding on the rails, it's not an issue.
If I was doing it now I'd go with either the Hilti or new Makita. (Whichever had the best depth of cut). You'll like it.
Huck,
I had just bought the Bosch CS20 before I decided to get the EZSmart system, so I've been using them together all along for cabinet making. I've got both a diablo and a forrest blade (forrest has a bigger kerf, but edge is absolutely perfect and jointable). I got a couple anti splinter inserts and edge guides with my EZSmart so I have a set saved for each different blade.
I got the Bosch because it got the Fine Homebuilding's top rating 2 years running. I only wanted one saw, and I use it for other things besides with the EZ Smart. (If I were planning on resawing or ripping thicker lumber, I'd probably invest in a band saw...)
Did you see that the EZ Smart was just reviewed in the 2008 FH Tool Guide?
Dr. Becks.
Try this for your saw.
http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tools-detail.htm?H=175983&G=69895&I=69570
david.
oh, that's very cool. Thank you!
all i get on your link is a bosch page that says..
"we're sorry, but you've reached this page in error "Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
See if this works. The Bosch site is down.
thanks... what is it .... 7 1/4 ?
electric brake ? pooper chute ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
LOL, it's a dust chute. Try this place if you're interested.http://www.toolsdirect.com/index.cfm?page=product:display&manufacturer=Bosch&productid=CSDCHUTE&finish=NA&source=BoschOnline
Sawmill Creek forum is where Dino hangs out now. There's a whole EZSmart section.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org
Hate to do this...but I have to say...
I've used my EZ guide for a couple years, it's a great tool...
But yesterday I gave my new Festool setup a run, built a kitchen for a buddy.
Festool wins.
You can't just drop that in here without starting a thread to detail it more, ya know!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yep, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this in more detail.And I promise not to give you a hard time for not posting it a week earlier when I was still trying to decide between the two :)
Mike,
I haven't used the Festool guide system but I've had the EZ Smart system for a while. I think the EZ Smart table system is great, but I've noticed some problems with the guide. I wonder if others have these problems?
One problem I have is that I don't get cuts that line up *exactly* with the guide edge. I replaced the plastic guide edge more than once and I still have the problem.
Here's what I think is the problem. The plastic guide edge does not sit flat on the wood being cut. It is slightly angled so the extruded aluminum sits a fraction of an inch (I haven't measured) above the wood being cut. Pressure on top of the extrusion from the weight of the saw, clamping pressure, or downward force on the saw cause the aluminum extrusion to pushed downward and the plastic guide edge to flex and push downward -- and outward. This is great for the anti-splinter effect but the outward movement of the guide edge means that you've just lost your cut line, which is a major selling point of EZ Smart. It also means that regular cutting will trim off more of the edge guide depending on how much downward pressure you use so when you line up the edge for your next cut the edge of the guide is no longer on the actual cut line for your saw. This is bad news.
The problem is not so bad when cutting sheet goods. However, when cutting short pieces such as cabinet fillers the edge guides flex even more than with sheet goods (because you are applying the same pressure over a smaller length of the edge guide). The other day I was cutting cabinet fillers and the cuts were more than 1/8 inch off, even after replacing and trimming a new edge guide. I cut the rest of the cabinet fillers on my table saw.
The other problem caused by the flexing edge guide is the cut can be tilted from 90 degrees depending on how much the edge guides flex on either side of the extrusion, causing the saw to tilt slightly left or right. This is a minor issue in most cases but it's not a good thing.
I think the problem could be solved with different plastic edge guides. Possible solutions could be (1) a plastic edge guide that doesn't extend below the bottom of the aluminum extrusion, eliminating the possibility of flex and/or (2) an edge guide that is thicker in cross section at the edge so it does not flex readily. These solutions might reduce the anti-splinter effect, but I don't know.
I think everyone would agree that you don't want flex or play in a woodworking system.
It is possible that I have something wrong in my setup but I doubt it. I don't have the EZ repeaters and this would eliminate lot of the issues for repetitive cuts. By the way, I use the PC Mag saw with a brake. Sometimes I use the clamps and sometimes I don't need to.
I think the EZ Smart system is a good one and Dino is constantly making improvements and adding accessories, but now I use it only for sheet goods but not for final cuts on cabinet work. I feel bad about saying this on a public forum and if I find out it is a problem with my setup I will be the first to post back here with an explanation and apology.
Has anyone else had these problems?
Billy
billy.... good insights..
i have the EZ and have used it for about 4 years... it has always given me the cuts i needed in the tolerances we're working to..
but we don't build cabinets.. we do built-ins.. so my tolerances are probably greater than yours.. it sounds like you are a cabinet shop
without denigrating Festool.. i don't see how their edge-guide system could be any more accurate than EZ's...
if we're about to start cutting some $60 sheet i'll be making sure we have true edges , and maybe even replace the inserts
but our everyday cutting... door bottoms, sheet goods , Azek trim.. i change saws, use framing blades, no clamps... etc, etc.... no sweat
i'd guess that the edge is so abused in our typical set-up that instead of a zero cut line, i might be allowing say 3/32 " offset... mostly because we've used the same edge for our 8 1/4 with a framing blade and our 7 1/4 with a 40 tooth...
i will pay more attention now that you've pointed out the flex issue... to this point i never noticed wether the edge was in a different plane than the guide
anyways.... good discussionMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I'm not a cabinet shop, but occasionally I make cabinets. The EZ Smart has worked well for me in most cases but I use the offset trick like you when the edge seems worn. But it shouldn't have to be that way. It is great for door bottoms (even without an 8 1/2 saw).
Being the inventive type, maybe Dino can make a new edge guide extrusion that solves the problem?
Billy
Edited 12/2/2007 3:13 pm ET by Billy
Billy,
Make sure your saw cuts square.
Don't apply more clamping pressure that can deflect the edges.
Post the problems on the ez forum and you get
all the answers without a ffffffffff-fight.
david.
Believe me, the blade is square to the saw base. But that doesn't mean the cut is always square.
If I have to worry about using the same clamping pressure every time, then this is an EZ Smart system problem. Many times I don't need to use clamps, such as when I use the EZ Square. It seems it would be better to re-engineer the guide edges so they don't deflect in a way that affects the perceived cut line.
Every tool has limitations and I'm not trying to bash EZ. It's a good tool and system. It's great to be able to pack everything into the case and go!
Billy
Edited 12/2/2007 4:19 pm ET by Billy
I'm a frame-to-finish foreman for a mid-size construction company. I bought myself the EZ smart guide two and a half years ago. I used my old 8 1/4" Skil, so I could cut through exterior doors. Later I changed to my 7 1/4" Dewalt because it has an electric brake, is lighter, and feels better to use. My crew has used and abused it--it's been a good tool, and it's easily paid for itself several times. We did 150' or so of Ipe boardwalk where almost every board needed a tapered cut. The EZ was up to the challenge.
The downsides I've found to the EZ are exactly what you mention--the 0° cut line is never really 0. It's plus or minus 1/32" to 3/32", and not always the same at both ends. The way the plastic insert make the guide rail ride up in the middle makes for tapered rips that aren't straight, and cuts that aren't perfectly square to the face of the panel. Good enough for boardwalks and exterior columns, yes. Good enough to let us efficiently produce top-notch interior work on site? No. Pretty good onsite work? Yes.
Building cabinets and built-ins on site, cutting down doors, making tapered rips for flooring, columns, scribe strips, with several guys working with me, I need a guide to be accurate to within 1/32", consistent, and foolproof. I also need cuts that are square to the face of the panel, and the ability to do 3° undercuts for long door rips, and 45° rips for tapered columns.
I use a tablesaw for narrow rips; I don't think that's what these guides are good for although I know others feel differently. I use a SCMS for crosscuts. I needed a guide that would let me do what a big shop tablesaw can do, onsite.
I talked my boss into buying the Festool saw, dust extractor, and three 50" guides. Two are joined together, but will break down for storage. The third is for crosscutting panels. Using it yesterday we found that we needed clamps for 8' rips but the tack strips held the crosscut guide without clamps. That alone will save a lot of time.
We didn't have a reason to test the undercutting ability. The edge cuts were perfectly square to the face of the panel though.
We got the quick-release clamps. They are a great design for clamps; I want more for general use, but at $30 each they are pricey. We were working in 30mph winds on a 20°F day, and one of the clamps fell and a plastic piece broke off. That didn't impress me much. There is a lot of plastic on these tools--it will be interesting to see how it holds up over time.
BTW, although most of our cabinets for work are hardwood plywood, my buddies (and co-worker's) cabinets were melamine. The Festool cuts were cleaner than the ones I can make in the shop with a $120 melamine blade.
In my "test" Festool beat EZ on all but the toughness. I will have to be careful who uses the Festool because it's not as rugged a setup as the EZ guide. I think I'll leave the EZ in our tool trailer for everyday use and save the Festool for shop work or very careful site work, when I'm there to supervise.
I have the same issue as far as cutting square faces. I've even pushed the saw blade past square to the base, cut pieces twice, put more pressure on the saw, but nothing seems to consistently work. I think it's the strips, too. As far as cutting filler strips, though, I think that's where the ez shines. I got the double clamps with the sacrificial bar and the posts that hold the work up. I've had great luck there.The ez square is another matter, my guys say it won't cut square... but, they're the same guys that can somehow gut the middle out of the white strips, and have no idea how it happens<G> Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
I hear you -- I've pushed my saw past square to try to get square cuts too!
I can't count on the the EZ Square being always square. It is adjustable but that's not what I'm looking for. It's good enough most of the time, and it would be easy for a bump or big splinter along the "square" edge of the material being cut to throw off the guide over 4 or 8 feet, so I guess it shouldn't be a big surprise.
My guide edge gets scooped in the center, too. I think it happens when I rip a short piece such as a cabinet filler. The concenrated pressure pushes the guide edge outward along the length of the filler and it gets trimmed off. When you lift up the EZ Guide it has a scallop where you cut the short filler piece.
Billy
Mike,
Thanks for the detailed report. How do the Festool guide strips work? Does the aluminum extrusion sit flat on the wood and is there any flex in the guide strip?
Dino's tools are very solid and well made. He doesn't cut any corners with their construction.
Billy
Agreed on the quality of Dino's tools. Top notch.
The Festool aluminum extrusions are flimsier than the EZ's. Maybe twice as much deflection? Thus the nervousness with using it on a busy job site. It does sit flat on the wood. Instead of flexible plastic strips, there are what seem to be rubber strips 1/16" thick or so that act as the sacrificial edge.
Can you use worm drives on the EZ rails?
I have alot of them and really dont want to buy a sidewinder.
I'd like to use my 8-1/4" skil. Would I have to mount a base to that? Not owning one yet, just wondering what I have to do when it shows up.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rL-uLDNRU_8
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dAveFBfaBIU
The ezRyoBigfoot.
david.
Edited 12/10/2007 6:06 pm ET by davidwood
Good Link David, I talked with Dino a little over to sawmill creek and he said all I would have to do is get the right base for the saw and it would be good to go.
Woods favorite carpenter
FKA- Stilletto
"We were working in 30mph winds on a 20°F day, and one of the clamps fell and a plastic piece broke off."Must've been the same day I dropped a plastic caulking gun the day after buying it.only six feet and it shattered.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I didn't actually "drop" the clamp, I slid it down to the other end of the sheet to the other guy. Forgot how slippery melamine is, and the other guy wasn't looking.
"Plastic--a tough material above 30°, and real slippery below 30°"
How's that for an advertising campaign?