Hi All:
I did a search and read thread after thread about compact fluorescent lighting. There was lots of good stuff, but I’m still wondering: what’s the best way to use compact fluorescents in a lighting design rather than as a glue-on solution to save energy?
In general, we want to use the CFs to provide raw lumens with some dimmable halogen accent lighting.
The main floor is all flat ceilings and the walls are pretty much a no-go area- the exterior walls we’d like to keep free of lighting fixtures if possible and the interior walls aren’t ideal locations for sconces. Any suggestions of recessed light fixtures with integral reflectors for use with CFs? Do those retrofit reflectors used in conventional cans tend to reduce the life of the CF bulbs and ballasts?
The upper floor rooms (bed, studio and bath) have a pitched ceiling and we’d like to completely avoid light fixtures in the ceiling (except the b/r may have a centre-mounted ceiling fixture for a future ceiling fan). Are we better off with strip fluorescents for cove lighting with some dimmable sconces, or halogen cove with CFs in sconces for raw lighting, or can you do something more interesting with CFs in this situation?
All ideas are welcome and greatly appreciated- this board has been a great help so far on this project!
Replies
Any fixture that retains heat is death on CF's. I had some reflector ones in track lighting that didn't last nearly as long as common incandescents.
Given all the places you don't want fixtures, perhaps you should think in terms of plug-in floor and table lamps.
-- J.S.
Yep, there'll be a few table lamps! I've been in more than one expensive house where there wasn't a single place you could sit and read comfortably after dark. Or houses where you could read but only if you wanted to dump huge amounts of light to unnecessary locations.
I won't be putting fixtures into my cathedral ceiling unless absolutely necessary because they'll become both a potential source of warm air leakage AND a visual distraction. I'll minimize lighting fixtures in exterior walls to the extent I can- just like I'll be minimizing just about everything that penetrates the VB in my exterior walls. Is that so restrictive?
So we've got one vote for compact fluorescents not lasting in reflective pot-light enclosures. Do others agree? They're so cheap now that even dropping the lifetime in half isn't such a big deal.
I see CF bulbs used in recessed fixtures all the time in commercial buildings, so you'd presume there are some fixtures of this sort which do work. Are these commercial fixtures using the screw-base bulbs with the ballast under the bulb, or are they using a different bulb with the ballast located away from the heat? I've never had one of these apart so I don't know.
the commercial types that I have installed use the plug-in base,
with the ballast remote on the frame of the can . The screw-in self contained junk was / is used in retrofit apps
Edited 11/9/2005 9:03 am by maddog3
I could post chapter & verse about CF fixtures, at least as far aa the ones used in hotels, but for my money, you'll save as much by getting "nice" fixtures, by which I mean it gives you the design look you want, the lumens you need,is easy to install & maintain, and doesn't break the budget, and using low tech...your thumb on the switch...or high tech...sensors, timers....to address the energy conservation need.
in the right spot CFs make allot of cents .. problem is right spots are hard to find since they don't play well with allot of other things .. I used compact floods in the soffit of my current project with the thought of also using some unstructured home automation products .. well turns out that they create so much noise on the line that unstructured home auto products are unreliable (you can put filters on them, but this gets very expensive), and you don't need to go high tech to run into other "interesting" things, I have an illuminated 3 way on the circuit that glows even when the circuit is hot, courtesy of the CFs (there are also dimming issues and timer issues) .. they do take a while to "warm" up, so you only want to use them where they'll be on for a long time, (and not on motion activated switches) or as you said, mix them with incandescent, heat usually isn't an issue since they are cool lights to begin with, and check the temperature rating on them .. my soffit ones were only rated down to about -15 or something like that, although last winter they worked fine and it was certainly allot colder than that .. all that said, I still do like the fact that 20, 14 w CFs ( = 75 w incandescent) cost's less to burn than the 3, 100 w incandescent ..
I'm just being a curmudgeon about the whole CFL thing,
yes I guess they " save " energy, ...... wanna SAVE??? turn the crap offyes, they are bright....it just seems like after at least sixty years of them we could have something else that illuminates and for a while we did .
. I liked the Halogen LV Halogen , Xenon ....plutons, photons, Mercury Vapor, High Pressure Sodium Vapor, Low Pressure Sodium Vapor, Metal Halide , Multi-Vapor and and other various and sundry whimsical fixtures for resi use....
Now we are heading back where the whole Electric in the House craze began !
... we even worry about putting a hole in the wall,
pretty soon we'll all be using candles.................WHEW......I'm OK"
phew, glad that's not maddog2!! I would love to turn all the soffit lights off (and will), but this is the best site security I can get for the $$$$$ ..
......Sorry about the rant.......
..I personally just don't like flourescent anything......as
I would rather use ordinary magnetic dimmers !"I'm just the installer......LOL"
no problem, I was going to name squat maddog4 - 9 before your bark got as bad as your bite! ... but I regress,
Molten, you can use any can for compact flourescents, I used 5 " ones with R20 flood light type cf's, they are actually a spagetti twist type, or 3 loop, bulb inside a flood light bulb, the glass is mirror coated on the back so a reflector in the can is not required .. and since flourescents don't generate heat, they're never going to trip the heat sensor ..
I also saw a cf christmas light, night light type bulb the other day, they would look fine in a wall sconce ..
edit ... View Image
Edited 11/9/2005 2:57 pm ET by wane
I was looking around yesterday and came across this place,it seems to me that this was the vendor for the lighting ..during some Best Buy store remodels I worked on building the Magnolia Home Theater areas in the stores.http://www.pegasusassociates.com/index.html"
I've got kids, and though I'll be teaching them to avoid wasting power, I'm a realist- so I know that the thumb on the switch basically means "my" thumb on the switch. Since I don't want to run around the house playing electric cop, I want energy-efficient lights. Sensors and timers are costly and a PITA. I have no objection to the colour or "feel" of the light emitted by a decent quality CF bulb, especially when mixed with halogen accent lighting. Personally, I greatly prefer it to the ugly brown light you get out of conventional incandescent bulbs. All I'm looking for is some fixtures intended for CFs which look decent and don't burn the things out before their prime or waste 3/4 of the light they emit.
I'm not worried about putting holes in my exterior wall's VB for necessary light fixtures. I just don't want my lighting design to depend on holes in exterior walls or cathedral ceiling if I can do without them. That's not being flaky- it's being realistic about the potential for these suckers to leak moist air and cause problems in a mostly-heating climate. If I end up with too many fixtures in the exterior walls, spending the extra money on air barrier insulation like spray foam will no longer be something I can do without, and that's a cost adder which will dwarf the cost of the fixtures I want.
I've seen some sconces which look half-decent with CF bulbs in them, but I'm not finding purpose-built integral reflector ceiling cans for my 1st floor that are intended for ordinary CF bulbs. Anybody know someone who makes them? Some makes and models to consider?
The alternative is the commercial stuff with the older-style insert-type straight bulbs as mentioned. Any brands to recommend?
"I've seen some sconces which look half-decent with CF bulbs in them, but I'm not finding purpose-built integral reflector ceiling cans for my 1st floor that are intended for ordinary CF bulbs. Anybody know someone who makes them? Some makes and models to consider?The alternative is the commercial stuff with the older-style insert-type straight bulbs as mentioned. Any brands to recommend?"I think we are talking apples & oranges here.....
Re the sconces, do you mean scones with a standard medium base incandescent socket with a screw in "retrofit" CF bulb?
Re the commercial stuff, what "older insert type straight bulbs" are you talking about...all the "commercial" CF fixtures I deal with use PLxx type bulbs...I don't know of any other type..and as far as "purpose-built integral reflector ceiling cans", they have them at HD, so how hard can they be to find?BTW, I play electric cop in my house every day...and the DW is worse than the kids!
"as far as "purpose-built integral reflector ceiling cans", they have them at HD, so how hard can they be to find?"
Maybe my HD and yours don't sell the same thing- or maybe I'm looking at what you're talking about and not seeing it. My local HD has lots of ceiling cans, but all of them seem to be meant for bulbs with reflectors built into the bulb (i.e. PAR-type bulbs). Either that or what they consider to be a "reflector" is simply an interior surface painted white- hardly an efficient reflector. I would imagine that a unit like that would waste at least 1/2 the lumens emitted by the bulb- that means lots of CFs for only marginal benefit relative to integral-reflector halogen bulbs.
Fixture/ballast units with internal specular reflectors and which take one or more PL-type CF bulbs would be fine with me. I've seen these in commercial applications but have no idea who makes 'em. If you can think of a make/model I can look up on the web, that would help me out- then I can hunt down the local distributor and buy them through my business. But those screw-base retrofit CFs are so inexpensive and readily available now that I'd like to use them if I could. I guess that any fixture designed for screw-base bulbs has to be capable of taking a 100-watt incandescent bulb (installed by an idiot) without causing a fire, which limits the design possibilities.
here...this is commercial grade stuff ... I dont know if this fits your requirements exactly...you will have to look at frames, then reflectors , this one beow seems to accept all types of lampshttp://www.lithonia.com/products/Family2.asp?Brand=LL&Family=Convertibles&ProductType=Downlighting%20-%20Commercial&Category=Commercial%20Rough-Ins&SubCategory=Convertiblesgood luck....."
Thanks- very helpful! The Lithonia stuff is widely distributed too.
keep in mind those fixtures are not designed for resi use ...
they may be too tall , but you have something to work with"
> Maybe my HD and yours don't sell the same thing-
Very possible. Stores differ based on the competence of individual department managers. Do they know what to stock? Do they bother to re-order when they run out? I have one HD that's better for plumbing and electrical, another that's better on lumber.
-- J.S.