Hey all,
I’ve been lurking for a while, gathering all the info I can from “the gurus” before I start on a new home in 60 days or so. I’ve read many old posts about windows and such, but no one has ever asked straight out, what is the best brand for the money?
I have a friend who can get me 10% off Pella windows at Lowe’s, but I have heard from some others that Windsor windows are a great value for the money, even compared to Pella at 10% off. They have a PVC window that comes pre-painted white, but I don’t know of any installers who have used them.
90% of mine will be casement windows, and I’ll need a lot of them.
My main concerns will be energy efficiency (which I know you can get from any manufacturer, but at what cost), durability, and warranty.
Any opinions out there?
Thanks for all you guys give to the community, I have gotten such an education in the past few weeks!!!
Replies
I've got 63 glazed openings to fill on a new construction job, with 5 of the 63 being either hinged glass doors or sliders. The windows are all casements, with a couple of them being "picture" casements, meaning casements with sashes that don't operate.
The architect designed the house around Marvin standard sizes. If you have done any window company catalog comparisons, you know that most everyone's standard sizes are within an inch or so of everyone else's.
To get the best deal on windows, IMHO, you want to be able to compromise and use anyone's standard sizes. With that in mind, you want to get your window and patio door schedule down on paper, with careful notations about where any sizes must be exactly as stated, if you have any situations like that.
Then you want to get that schedule out to everyone that can quote it, and make sure they understand that they are to quote nearest standard size unless you have specified exact.
Of the 58 windows in my schedule, 5 are to be exact-sized in height only, and the rest, I'll take the manufacturer's nearest standard. Since virtually everyone in window manufacturing has their size charts on their websites, I can prequalify before getting out the RFQs, which players can participate in the bidding.
The two big well-known brands, Pella and Andersen, have product lines, ProLine and 200 Series respectively, for which pricing is quite competitive, but the size availability within those lines is limited, and special sizing is out of the question. But, if your sizing can be 100 percent handled by those, you'll want their quotes.
I couldn't do that. Pella ProLines would't make my size list, and Andersen's Series 200 is only available with vinyl cladding. I want aluminum clad frames and sash.
I got pricing against my schedule, per the RFQ method above, in Pella, Andersen, Marvin, Bonneville, Vetter, Pozzi, Kolbe & Kolbe, and Windsor. Windsor has the best price.
I decided that Winsor would get the order after I carefully examined full-sized sample casements of their product, and others that were near Windsor in price. I know a little something about windows, a friend has used them on a good-sized job last year, and their detailing and construction looks quite good to me.
Edited 3/28/2005 4:29 pm ET by Gene Davis
Gene,How is Windsor's warranty?
I nortice you didn't look into Norco AL, Gene. I've used them three times and no complaints. They can do some interesting custom shapes for a decent upcharge too.You spoke at length of good tips on bidding the package out, and prequalifying size selections per company, but not much on quality. When I read the title, I saw that the balance of both price and quality was important to him. "course maybe I misunderstood him, since I'm more of a finger smasher than a thumbsmasher. Anyways, in the lines you mention, I'll speak to the quality from my own opinions and experiences.
the Pella does not come anywhere close to the same grade of window as Andersen. The Andersedn is a great window from a great company. I would use it more except that the style lines seldom fit my more historical work. the Pella proline is barely worth installing - but that's just me experience.In the higher grade of Pella Archy series vs Marvin. The P is close in many ways but still not nearly as good of a window, and the pricing is within a percent or two for me. I consider Pella to be five to ten percent less in quality for only a couple percent less in price, so at the high end, I would say that Marvin gives me the best value.overall, there is no question in my mind that the Andersen is the best value, when it will fit the styling and other needs.
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Do you remember the line from Dustin Hoffman's debut film, Pif? The one about plastics?
I said the reason I won't consider Andersen windows is because I want aluminum cladding on my frames and sashes, and I stand by that. Andersen's frame and sash has vacu-formed vinyl as its cladding. Vinyl. PVC. The same basic compound others are talking about on another thread as going brittle and shattering when used to make DVW piping, and exposed to UV.
I ask you, if vinyl is so great, why aren't you using it as your siding? ;-)
But having said that, I contend that the Andersen Frenchwood hinged patio door is the finest piece of engineered fenestration in the biz. But it ain't vinyl. The frame is pultruded fiberglass and the sash is painted wood. The Frenchwood glider isn't bad, but it has a vinyl-clad frame.
There are windows I cannot get here, because of lack of distribution, good representation, or service, that I would have priced if I could, because I consider their quality to be worthwhile. They are Leowen and Weathershield. Nobody even knows the Norco name here.
I have the Weathershield in my house. Nobody here wants to sell them tho. What you touch on is availabilioty, and service in any given area. I think that is forty percent of the decision someone makes.It's great to have a fine looking impressive window. And to have a fantastic price.But if the service for that brand is lousy...You end up with a delivery off scedule, with two windows missing, one in failure, or maybe detailed with the wrong opptions, and a decided lack of interest from the rep in fixing the problems or getting you back on scedule.everybody makes mistakes - it is how you fix the mistake that separates the men from the boys and is a large part of the value/cost definition.That is the reason I like Andersen as a company. RE the polyvinyl extrusions - I have worked on Andersen wood windows from forty years ago that had suffered some rot. No problem getting parts that still fit. But the point here is that the vinyl seems to do a better job than the paint did.AL is not without it's problems either, you know.
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Piffin,
Are you happy with your Weathershield windows? Hardware is good, etc? If you bought & installed installed them, what drove your decision to buy them? Would you use them again? The only reason I'm wondering is that I don't hear to much about Weathershield but I recently saw them installed in a high-end renovation.
I assume you like Weathershield if they're in your home...
Thanks,Billy
I have weathershield in my house and they SUCK! Both as a window and a company.
Read the fine print on their warrenty, nevermind I'll sum it up for you... They don't have one.
And when they break and you need parts, don't bother cause they don't support old styles.
As a comparison I rebuilt 3 Andersen sliding doors a couple of months ago. Needed all kinds of weather stripping and parts... no problem. The doors were originally installed in 1968. Now there's support.
Yesterday I threw out my Weathershield catalogs & design books and when I saw that Piffin has them I rescued the catalogs from the trash. Back in the trash they go...
Billy
What was the problem with the Weathershields? I almost went with them, thought they were a good product, but interested to hear what you didn't like about them.
Main problems were;
seal failures starting at 5 years. They pro-rate glass and replacement glass pro-rated for 5 years was twice the price I could buy it locally new.
Balance shoes poorly designed with a specific size and piece of cast aluminum that attaches the balance to the shoe. They no longer make it and no one else does either. Having dowels holding open 5 year old windows was not the look I was after.
Now tell us how you REALLY FEEL;)Seal failure is the most common complaint on WS
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It boils down to quality control. Weathershield stamps a date on the spacer bar. Every window made with that date failed. I have no doubt the person filling the bar with desiccant that day called in sick ..... but the band played on.
They are really pushing Weathershield out here in the Hamptons. I went with Marvin Integrity, hopefully they will hold up. I'm not impressed with the screens though, the knobs for the spring clips keep pulling off.
Welcome to my world. Don't bother searching for those little buggers in the lawn every spring, as you'll launch more then NASA in a good year. The local hardware store should have an ample supply. I buy them by the dozen.
Edited 3/29/2005 10:20 pm ET by sledgehammer
Can you get them at the hardware store? The Integrity's are these little plastic things. I was thinking of trying to retrofit them somehow.
I'm pretty much in the same boat as the original poster -- i'm building a new home soon and i want wood interior, extruded AL on the outside. The brands i'm strongly considering are
Loewen, Marvin, Weathershield, Anderson
I like 'em in that order. Anderson isn't AL exterior but service from what i read is awesome and price/performance is pretty hard to beat. And money is a factor so it may come down to wanting Loewen but affording Anderson.
Most windows down here (SC) are double hung.
The detailing, hardware, and quality of millwork are not in the same class as Marvin, but they are in the top third of their class. I think that one reason they are harder to find dealers and recomendations for is that they are innovators and step out to the very edge, pushing the envelope of what is possible. For instance, there was a time when they were the only window outfit that would even consider making true divided light insulated units with a narrow muntin. That sort of design is fraught with danger and potential for failures.So they ended up - in the refining fire of real life - with a higher rate of failures, which left some previous dealers and customers with a bad taste in their mouths. I've had mine since I built in abhout '96 or 97 and no problems with them, so I can't attest to warrantee policies
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Wow, that's some really good info, exactly what I needed. Your input and Piffin's also, will be priceless in helping me narrow down my choices. Thanks to TGNY, too, good stuff I can certainly use. I went and checked out the Windsor line at a local showroom and was pleased with the services they will provide, such as delivering multi-unit windows in one piece, installing, holding the hardware (also for doors if necessary) for me until all painting is done, returning to re-install the hardware, and a final check that nothing was damaged since the install. They, too, warned against letting a framing crew install the windows.I'll keep checking back to see if anyone else pipes up, but this is enough to get me started for sure.Thanks again, guys! (or gals if ye be of that sort)Whacker of Thumb
For what it's worth I spent months researching windows and there is no one answer, it depends on what you want: wood/ alum-clad/vinyl-clad/solid vinyl/fiberglass. I needed 40 units and I ended up going with Marvin Integrity, which are fiberglass construction on the exterior and wood interiors. I wanted wood on the inside and I want to be able to paint the exterior. Fiberglass is paintable, and will suposedly hold paint better than wood. It is stronger than vinyl and it's coefficient of expansion is similar to the IGU's therefore mitigating seal failure. They are a cheaper line than the full blown Marvin's, but I believe they have the same IGU and seals and come standard with low-e, screens, etc. They are competitevly priced, though they don't have custom sizes, so I sized according to their catalog. I originally wanted wood frames, since I personally did not want any vinyl on my house, I feel it fades over the years and is nearly impossible to refinish. On the other hand wood requires more frequent re-painting/staining. Check out this website: replacement-windows.com (I think that is the proper spelling, if not it is some variation of that) Good luck.
No mater who's windows you wind up with... Make sure they are installed correctly.
I have repaired windows for years and most problems are because whoever installed them didn't know how or bother to read the instructions. This may sound stupid, but I could show you the best framers that have been doing it for decades and they install every window wrong.... And don't get me started on bricklayers and window clearences .... you don't want to go there.
What are the mistakes that framers make when installing windows?I took out a window in my house recently. No flashing. Nada. Zippo.
In over thirty years of doing renovations I always found Anderson the best bang for the buck.
I hate Pella windows.
I'm using Marvin's right now because they fit my old house...wood inside and outside and they're a great window but $$$$$$$$$$
Be well
a...
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
Check your local Home Depots, the stores in my area are all unloading their line of Anderson windows. ( I think changing brands?) 30% to 50%off the store price. If you have a place to store & get the standard windows you could save enough to make it worth the effort.
Good luck with the house, make sure you post pictures of the work in progress!
Edited 3/29/2005 8:35 am ET by G80104
Since windows are often manufactured regionally, and depending on where you are advice will differ, you might want tell state where you live.
Out here in the Upper Midwest, I in the past have found Crestline to be an excellent value in an aluminum clad wood window.
WSJ
I can offer an opinion based on my own experience as a Homeowner only. About 12 years ago I added on to my house and purchased 14 Pella casement windows and a Pella French Door with screen doors.
What made me choose Pella back then, aside from an aggressive sales campaign on the radio (Remember this was pre-Internet days) was that I could buy individual casements and have them factory ganged together so that they would all open in the same direction. Anderson only offered a pair of windows each opening away from the other and then a single window opening the same as only one of the windows.
I had 3 groups of 3 windows and one group of 5 windows all joined together at the factory so they all opened in the same direction (within each group).
I also bought the internal pleated shades that installed between the outer glass and the remmovable interior storm window. It was the intention of shielding the room from too much direct sunlight that made me choose which direction any particular set of windows opened.
The windows weren't bad quality. One sticks partially when I attempt to close up for the winter so I have to go outside and push on it while someone inside cranks it shut and latches it tight.
However, the French Doors are CRAP! And the screen doors are WORSE! They leak air all around (after being installed by a master craftsman who knew his stuff and did everything meticulously). The screens do not come out, so they take the winter beating every year. The alleged "solid brass" fitings all rusted and pitted, and most of the "solid brass" wore off exterior surfaces.
To add insult to injury, 5 years after installation when the damage was evident, I called for factory service. No parts available. Ever again. They decided to change designs and will not continue to make parts for earlier designs. So, I'm stuck with the garbage fittings. Fittings for the new models cannot be retrofitted onto existing installations.
So, my opinion is a mixed bag. Would I buy Pella again? NO! Not even the windows. Why? Customer service is non-existent after purchase. Fittings exposed to the elements are made out of crap, screens cannot be removed for seasonal storage, tolerances in the pre-hung french door allow a veritable windstorm to enter the room. I've even had a small bit of snow and ice crystals on the floor one morning!
Now, that was 12 years ago and maybe things have changed. Maybe even for the better. I like the aluminum exterior feature, but....that's all. So, no, I would not buy Pella again.
Griff
> They leak air all around
Check out http://www.conservationtechnology.com for some excellent retrofit weatherstripping.
-- J.S.
Thanks, I will.
I just paid for an Andersen 400 series package for my new house (Home Depot) - I went looking a few weeks back, and the salesman called me over the weekend with a 10% if you buy now discount. His comment was that Andersen was pushing the sales folks to close the deal on any active estimates in the computer.
We bit. Now I am hearing 30-50% off? Uggh.
Is anyone else seeing Andersens deeply discounted?
And should I buy Andersen doors too?
About every six or seven weeks the truck comes in here. myAndersen supplier keeps contractors updated
"get your Andersen order in by xx/xx/xx for truckload pricing"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
http://www.loewen.com/
very,very nice.
carpenter in transition
Andersen are my favorite. I use them whenever I can. One good reason was a house I was working on that was built in the 1930's On the water. The owners didn't know what a can of oil was. If it didn't work force it kind of mentality. Out of 54 windows, each window having 5 moving part. Only 3 parts in two windows failed with no maintenance in 70 years of use. And, ALL of the parts were available. The screw holes lined up perfectly. The Andersen rep apologized because the new parts were stamped steel instead of diecast and didn't look exactly the same.
Compare that to some other windows that I had to deal with that were 15 years old that all needed parts -- forgetaboutit.
Thumb,
In addition to all the previous observations here are a couple other things to keep in mind. If your exterior framing is 2x6 check the sills out on slliders, atriums, and french doors.
The last Weathershields I saw, instead of solid aluminum extruded sills, had two extrusions cleverly disguised as one, and not shown on the cross sections in the catalog. Additionally, the sills were out of square with the jambs, tilting in towards the interior of the house. These two extrusions were supposed to be waterproofed with caulking (whether by the installers or the factory I never did figure out). In order to prevent hardwood floors from buckling, they must be installed in a pan.
The only Bonneville windows I ever saw (in the same house with the Weathershield Atriums) were ganged double hungs with multi piece sills. Behind each exterior mull strip (each of which extended beyond the jamb) and hidden under the vinyl track, was a 1/4" hole leading to the top of the 2x framing the rough opening. Not a single one of these windows showed any evidence that the factory had made the slightest attempt to make them waterproof. The overhanging mull strips funneled water directly through the the holes, and into the walls. Mushrooms and black smelly stuff was growing inside the walls beneath each window by the time I arrived to trim the place. The chestnut flooring had cupped, split and otherwise self destructed around every one of the "Weathershields".
Like the doors, all the windows need to be installed in pans.
Good luck,
jim
pozzi is great, but really expensive'
Check out Loewen, Kolbe and Kolbe, both very high quality, lots of options, not as pricy as marvin or weathershield, probably a bit more than Andersen though.
Kradco makes a nice window for the money. I have specified Kolbe and Kolbe or some similar window on jobs, and we ended up taking a deduct to use Karadco, and the owners are happy with them after 6 or 7 years. You never hear about them, but they are very similar in construction to Kolbe and Kolbe.
I like Loewen for replacing windows in older houses- they have lots of options for the window mullions, without spending an arm and a leg, just an arm.
I dislike Pella by the way, I don't think they are worth the money.
I am thinking of using Kolbe windows in an addition project. Do you have any comments on their windows. Also, we are having trouble deciding between wood exteriors or aluminum clad. Any suggestions? We are also considering Marvin and Caradco. Any comments or recommendations would be helpful. Thanks