I received suprise orders Friday that I will be hanging about a dozen stain grade slabs Monday. Had I known earlier, I would have gone out and purchased a hinge jig.
Anyway, what I need is an efficient way to bevel the hinge side of the slabs. I do NOT own an ez guide so that suggestion is out. I do have an electric planer.
I’m stumped as to how the keep the bevel consistent thoughout the length of the door.
Your tips are appreciated. I’ll be out till later on so I won’t be responding till then.
At two hinges per door plus boring and installing locksets, I’m guessing at least 1.5 hrs. per door. What do you think?
Thanks,
Eric
Replies
When we need to hang slab doors, we use out electric plane, with the fence set at aboout 3-5*. Be careful not to rock the plane as you run along the edge of the door, and it works fine. I also bevel the latch side of the door slightly, with the short side of the bevel on the stop side of the door.
Fred
I have the plane but no bevel on the sole plate.
Thanks[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Use a wedge to eye-ball the angle; you should be able to do this by eye with a power plane; with a hand plane, use the front surface of one door as a flat plane and sit the beveled edge of the door you're beveling on it to eye the angle and to look for high-spots.
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Phill Giles<!----><!---->
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Thanks Phill.[email protected]
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PS, I assumed you already know, but just to complete the thread: use a guage (I use a small steel ruler as a slide, and a pencil) to mark the bevel before you cut
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Phill Giles<!----><!---->
The Unionville Woodwright<!----><!---->
Anytime you need consistancy with a hand-held tool you could build a jig to hold the tool. Angled guide in this case. Don't guess you could run them through a jointer?
Bevel the hinge side?
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Jointer would work if I had one and lugged it to the site or the doors to it.
Bevel the hinge side?
Yes. Shorter side of the bevel is towards the stop so the door does not bind.
Thanks.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Eric, I've gotten to where I can bevel a door accurately using my old Elu electric hand plane and no jig. I set the door in a buck and just lift the planer along one edge as I run it down the door. Set for a very shallow cut and after a couple passes you can let the planer ride on the new bevel as you finish it. I then belt-sand the edge and dub the corners. I don't think it should be necessary to bevel the hinge side, though... if the jamb is perpendicular to the wall then there won't be any binding.
I sometimes think about buying the megabucks PC door plane. Not enough use for it, unfortunately.
I'm thinking I can wing it but was looking for something a bit more solid.
I will run a pencil along the edge of the front then mark the back about 1/8 or less from the edge.
I will use the mark on the front corner as a save to guide and use the mark on the back as the cut down to guide.
Then like you said I will have enough of a bevel to follow.
Thanks,
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Yes. Shorter side of the bevel is towards the stop so the door does not bind.
Typically the bevel in on the latch side. Hinges don't typically bind unless the jamb isn't straight, the screws aren't straight and project out, or the hinges aren't recessed properly.
The electric plane is the proper tool for this, used with an edge guide. My Dewalt edge guide is non adjustable, but a simple popcycle stick shim between the top edge of the edge guide and a 2"x16" board gets a good angle around 3 degrees.
The longer 2" x 16" board that is attached to the edge guide makes starting and finishing the door cuts easier. Round the edges slightly, sand smooth and add a little wax to the board's face to eliminate any scratches on the door face.
good luck
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Typically the bevel in on the latch side. Hinges don't typically bind unless the jamb isn't straight, the screws aren't straight and project out, or the hinges aren't recessed properly.
I thought rule of thumb was bevel and both edges if you can particularly in smaller doors.
Too many unless' and if's in that sentence. We all know what conditions we will find. Seldom the best.
I just wish my plane had a guide or even the capacity for one. It doesn't.
Thanks
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Too many unless' and if's in that sentence.
Hanging doors can be as simple or complete as you'd like to make it. :-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I just wish my plane had a guide or even the capacity for one. It doesn't.
Make one.
Screw a piece of "straight wood" on the 1/4" ply. (shooting board)
Your L Bracket slides on the ply and the "straight wood"
is your stop.
Figure out the offset and clamp the shooting board to the door.
The L bracket can be made from a tapered piece of wood.
The only problem is to find a way to connect the L-bracket to the planer. Screws? Clamps? Duct tale?
In less than 30 minutes you can make your own "guided planer"
David.
What about setting up a router with a 1/2" straight bit, make shims to bevel the base plate at the desired angle and set up a straight edge... I've never tried this though.
or if you have a cabinet or contractors saw, and you're willing to transport the doors to it.....
I'm more concerned about the 1 1/2 hours you have budgeted...Are the jambs plumb and set right? If so probably no problem and you'll pick some efficiency after the first or second door you do. If you need to fit every door into each individual opening it could be areal bitch and you might end up working for 10 bucks an hour...
I'm not a big fan of T&M work usually, in this case I'd consider it.
I'm no longer s/e. Been on the clock for the man almost a year now.
This is how we do things; ie; little or no notice of what job is coming along. As I said, I'd be better prepared had he let me know when he ordered the doors, but then he is obviously not well enough organized to know that I will be the one installing them.
I've gotten pretty good at reading the jams well enough to be able to cut the new doors to fit quite well. A piece of paper and a drawing of out of square (level) heads and floors is essential to making the job progress.
Of course how much time my boss allotted if he did at all (perhaps t&m on his side) is a whole other story.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
amen. well said."The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a governmental program" -Ronald Reagan
or here's a thought I always like to consider...
buy a new tool!
buy a new tool!
I like that idea. [email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
I don't quite understand why you have to cut from the face side. But either way, if you use a shooting board, just score down the edge with a utility knife before you cut to eliminate splintering if you think that might be a problem.
I can comfortably hang and bore a door in 1-1/2 hours if the jamb is reasonably plumb and level. Hopefully there aren't too many trips to the fitting bench.
What kind of doors are you hanging? Solid core or hollow? I can do more hollow cores in a day, just 'cause I don't get as tired humping them around and up and down stairs.
I don't quite understand why you have to cut from the face side.
Ok, I'll try to create a visual.
Lay a door on a pair of horse and stand at the bottom of the door with the edge needing the bevel on your right.
My saw has the blade on the right side. The top of the blade tips right when set at an angle; the bottom of the blade goes to the left.
So, if I want to bevel this door, AND keep the large part of the saw base on my work as it should be, I will need to cut from the face.
Unless I'm missing something which is entirely possible.
I'm thinking I will just clean up the saw and cover the sole plate with blue tape or thin cardboard and use the shooter board.
Thanks for your input.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
If you use a shoot board, the shoe of your saw will never touch the door. The shoot board is the only thing in contact with the surface besides the blade.
I guess I do not understand what a "shoot board" is then.
I was thinking something which to guide the sole plate against.
Always something to learn.
Thanks[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Take a 16"x 8' ripping of ¼" ply & staple it to a 3"x 8' piece of ¾" ply with about 2" of reveal on one side. Now run your saw down the built up piece on both sides so you have the cut referenced off both sides of the saw.
You have now built the caveman version of the ezguide. Clamp it to the line& cut, saw rides on the ¼", just remember which side your on.
I went looking for a picture, but couldn't find one. So, I'll try and describe it.
I've heard it called a shooting board and I don't have one yet, but I will make one before I install those doors I was talking about. Here's one way to make it:
Find a dead straight piece of wood about 7' long (a 1X6 should work) and secure it flat and even with one edge to a piece of plywood (3/8" is good) that is also 7' long. The width of the exposed section of plywood should be at least as wide as the distance from one side of the saw's baseplate to the blade.
Now, just cut through the plywood using the 1X6 as a guide. As you can see (if my description was good enough), you can now align the cut edge of the plywood with the desired cut location (no "measuring back") and be sure that this circular saw (with this blade) will always cut right there.
2 more benefits: 1) there should be less splintering because the shooting board is in direct contact with the workpiece and 2) the saw's baseplate rides on the shooting board, not the workpiece.
Be aware that the depth of cut will be reduced. Not just by the thickness of the plywood, but you may also need to raise the saw off the baseplate (reduce the depth of cut) so the saw's motor clears the 1X6. And speaking of that 1X6, make sure that it's wide enough to clamp the shooting board to the workpiece and still allow the saw to clear.
Of course, you could make the shooting board for the short side of the baseplate for greater depth of cut, but it would be harder to maintain square.
Well, maybe I should have looked harder for a picture because that took more words than I thought it would. But how'd I do?
-Don
Well, maybe I should have looked harder for a picture because that took more words than I thought it would. But how'd I do?
Wonderful.
I'm getting lots of info as I have another thread going on shoot boards.
Thanks so much.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Thanks for the info. I did find an article on the shooting board if you go under fine woodworking.com and punch in Gary Williams he has a whole story and pictures on how to make one it is real interesting to read. I'll be trying to make one in the next week or so thanks for your help.
Steve
Yeah, you're right about cutting from the face side. I wasn't thinking clearly when I posted. I guess the cold meds are muddling my head.
A shoot board is a handy gadget to have . I make mine out of a piece of 1/4" ply for a base, and 1/4" or 1/2 " ply for the fence. Glue the 2 pieces together, but make sure the amount of 1/4" base that is exposed AFTER the fence part is on is wider than the distance between the left edge of your saw and the blade.
Then make a cut on the shooting board with your saw riding against the fence, cutting off the excess of the 1/4' base. You now have a jig that automatically registers the saw cut to the line you want.
I'd make the cut at the proper door bevel angle to ensure the ease of setting the shooting board on the doors. Clamp the shooting board to a door, and you're all set to make a nice, straight beveled cut.
Someone else is bound to have answered this one farther down; but, YES, please bevel the hinge side and make sure that the hinges are slightly proud of the door and the jamb. To do otherwise creates the "door won't close properly" syndrome that can drive a new door-hanger crazy.
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Phill Giles<!----><!---->
The Unionville Woodwright<!----><!---->
If not an EZ guide, you could always make up a shooting board and use that with a circ. saw to make the bevels
If not an EZ guide, you could always make up a shooting board and use that with a circ. saw to make the bevels
Same goes for the planer... If you kept the bevel bracket.
David.
That saw guide/ circular saw thought is really good if you don't have a door plane. Follow up with a belt sander or hand plane and that should do the trick this one time. Should be a lot cleaner and consistant than attempting with just an electric plane other than a PC door plane.
I have a right blade circ saw which means I will have to cut from the front of the door in order to get the bevel towards the back of the door and keep the big side of the saws sole plate on the door.
Thanks.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
What about the time thing. Any guesses? I'm on the clock so it doesn't matter a whole lot except that I would like to get a grip on how this job will affect the reest of the week.
Thanks
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Same goes for the planer... If you kept the bevel bracket.
Never had one. It's an older Makita.........works swell but no bells or whistles.
Thanks[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
you could always make up a shooting board and use that with a circ. saw to make the bevels
I'd have to cut from the front of the door though and I'm afraid of mucking up the doors. Stain grade remember?
Thanks[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
If you hot glue a strip of wood or whatever to the one side of the sole of your electric plane, play around with it till you get the right angle which is 3-5 deg, and use a guide with it, you'll zip right through those doors.
I have quite an extensive collection of hand planes, including the full set of Stanley-Baily bench planes, and I use a guide that has an adjustable bevel on it with my #7 or #8. A tad slower but absolutely no chatter markes or snipe with those and they are infinately more satisfying to use.
If you hot glue a strip of wood or whatever to the one side of the sole of your electric plane, play around with it till you get the right angle which is 3-5 deg, and use a guide with it, you'll zip right through those doors.
That thought keeps reocurring in my head. i don't even have a guide for the plane.
Maybe time to look in the Box this pm and see what they have.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
I only bevel the latch side now. Used to do both but have found that 95 percent of the time it doesnt make a difference. I figure an hour per slab so you are in the ballpark if it is something you dont do that often. Probably take you two hours to do the first one and half an hour to do the last.
At two hinges per door plus boring and installing locksets, I'm guessing at least 1.5 hrs. per door. What do you think?
I haven't done a lot of slab installs, but I think 1.5 hrs per door is optimistic. At that rate, you could theoretically do 5 doors per day. Whew, that's cooking! I have a job coming up with about 12 doors also. I've planned it for 4 days (3 doors per day) and an extra day to paint all of them.
If I get more than 3 doors done per day, I get some time off because I'm charging by the door, not by the hour.
Including painting, I'm figuring over 3 hours per door. I'll be working alone and I need to transport the doors and dispose of the old ones so I do lose some time there.
-Don
Thanks. I figured I was being overly optimistic. It's gonna take 2 hours a piece no doubt.
Thanks for your input.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
I started those doors yesterday. I did 3 1/2 doors yesterday and 4 1/2 today. I still think 3 per day is a "safe" estimate (especially when it includes painting), but when things go well, I suppose 5 doors per day is within reach.
You just never know what you're going to find. I think I spent 10 minutes per door just digging out enough paint from the hinge screws so I could remove them. Most of the doors required a little planing/trimming because the openings aren't square and so far, 2 of the doors were too tight against the stop molding so I had to remove and re-set the stop molding (I'm not quite sure how that happens). My job includes re-painting so moving the stop molding is no big deal, but it does slow things down.
I've got a few more doors to go and then it's on to painting them. How did you make out?
-Don
How did you make out?
Don (and Rez!)
I did well.
I beveled the first couple of doors and then stopped upon discovering that it would be ok not to, just as some in this thread had suggested. I did it by eye with the Makita electric.
I made up a nice pair of door stands from some scrap cabinet material. Sharpened the block plane and my Dad's old Stanley 3/4'' chisel. I can get the chisel sharp enough to shave hair from my arm using a grinding wheel and an oil stone.
I also purchased a hole saw set by Rigid and gave up the old pos multi blade thingy I would use from time to time.
As I removed each door I visually inspected it's fit and checked the head jamb for square to the legs. Also noted any misalignment of the striker. I took notes as well.
Each door went on the bench and I measured and tranferred handset centers and hinge locations to the new slabs. I marked and drilled for the new handset hole while the door was flat on the bench.
Drop the door into the stands. Mark for new hinges. Slice the edge of the hinge with the grain and then some nice stop cuts with Dad's chisel. Pop, pop, a little work with the chisel; I'd say it took less than 5 minutes per hinge x two per door. Install one leaf of each hinge.
One or two doors had crappy grain that was less than easy to cut away but nothing to terrible. One or two had nice tight smooth grain that practically ran screaming as it saw the chisel approach.
I also purchased and used one of those self centering spring loaded drill thingys for drilling pilot holes for the hinges. Between that and the new hole saw kit I saved a LOT of time (and headaches).
Flip door and drill for latch. Assemble hand set and latch.
Bring door inside where I had previously installed the other side of the hinge and and the door.
I got lucky to a large extent. The doors were originally hung very well. I only had to cut one or two tops, maybe three. Maybe one or two doors needed a little cardboard shim behind the hinge. Did not cut any bottoms. The new doors were a very close if not shy 30", 32" and so on. A bit on the shy side so that helped me alot and negated the need mostly to have to bevel anything past the first couple of doors.
I knocked out six doors one day when I had a full day (8hrs) to work on nothing else. That was a good day.
The rest may have taken longer but I was not keeping track as much then as I was performing other tasks as well.
The stands I made should go in the Tools you wish you had a while ago or whatever it was called. Between the stands, the hole saw and the self centering drill; I made up alot of time.
Thanks for asking and thanks to all who offered their advice.
Eric
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" 2 of the doors were too tight against the stop molding so I had to remove and re-set the stop molding (I'm not quite sure how that happens). "
Don,
sounds like you made out pretty well with the doors, in response to the above mentioned problem, When you locate the hinge leaf on the door it should be set 1/16" farther onto the door OR the leaf on the jamb should be set 1/16" farther out from the stop. So, if your setting your leaf on the door at say, 1 1/4" depth, the leaf on the jamb should be set at 1 3/16" depth, this will give you 1/16" clearence between the door and stop.
In your case if your hanging slabs into existing openings, measure the depth of the leaf on the jamb and add 1/16" to that dimension,then use that number for the door leaf depth. Happy Hanging! :)
P.S. this clearance is needed only on the hinge side but is similar to the idea of the beveled edge on the strike edge giving clearance for the door to close properly.
Geoff
Thanks. I was thinking along those lines already so it's good to hear that it works. The hinge mortise template that I was using doesn't permit that kind of adjustment, but for next time, I'll but a 2nd template and modify it so it sets the leaf 1/16" deeper like you said. Then, I'll just use whichever template works better for a particular door.
-Don
Geoffrey,
just to clarify?-------- you aren't talking about changing the DEPTH of the hinge mortice are you?----but rather moving it 1/16" further ON to the doors edge--which would then move the door 1/16" away from the stop?
that is----- adjusting the depth of the mortice moves the door position side to side between the 2 jambs---- but moving the mortice on the door 1/16" moves the door slightly into or out of the doorway relative to the stop
do I have you correct?
thanks, Stephen
It sounds like you have it correct. The term is "hinge backset" and it refers to the distance from the back edge of the hinge to the stop on the frame--OR the back of the hinge to the back edge of the door. The hinge backset on the door should ALWAYS be at least 1/16" less than that of the frame.
Thanks for the terminology lesson. It makes sense.
Why should the hinge backset on the door be at least 1/16" less than that of the frame? It seems to me it only needs to be 1/16" less to clear the stop molding when you're replacing a door. When doing a new door install, I install the stop last and leave 1/32" (approx) between the stop and the door.
-Don
My recent experience has been in the Architectural door side of things, and that's the norm with the hollow-metal frame guys. If 1/32" works, by all means keep doing it that way. The "at least 1/16" rule is there--I suspect--to take care of any imperfect machining of the hinge mortises and also future paint build-up.
Steve, yes, exactly, I guess the wording does get confusing somtimes.
Geoff
I have in the past bought slabs that were beveled already. maybe you'll get lucky
Lucky? Me?
nah, seen 'em allready.
You don't think the boss would ever dare show his ignorance and ASK the supplier if that is available?[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Maybe I just too dam old, but I remember when doors came square on both sides. You morticed for hinges and beveled the latch side ( need this or door would bind on jam as closing ). Custom mades still come this way, unless spec'd otherwise. Then many years ago I started seeing them come beveled on both sides, esp. prehunges. I figured this is to make them idiot proff. If the jams aren't installed with the legs square and parallel to each other across width, you don't have to worry about hinge bind as much with the hinges mounted on bevel. It's all part of the industry policy of skip the long apprenticeship and craftsmanship and go for the production with minimal training.
Roger
Edited 10/23/2006 12:07 pm ET by RogerEverett
"Then many years ago I started seeing them come beveled on both sides, esp. prehunges. I figured this is to make them idiot proff."Nothing's idiot proof!! About 4 years ago, a guy on one of my jobs installed the hinges at the wrong side of the bevel. Talk about hinge bind!!! Then I figured the door was pretty well butchered, he said he could fix it, so I told him to go ahead. An hour later, it was mangled beyond repair, wound up as a wheelbarrow ramp.
You may be right, but I do it because we live in a climate where the inside humidity can vary from <10% to 100% (high mark in bathrooms, laundry rooms, and kitchens), wood can shrink and swell, houses settle, hinges get moticed a tad too deep (a couple of coats of latex on the door can change a slightly proud hinge to less than fluch), and I haven't even started on engineered materials. I was taught to bevel three sides of the door to get a really tight clearance without the door binding later either.
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Phill Giles<!----><!---->
The Unionville Woodwright<!----><!---->
I might add that also back in the old days, any carpenter that I knew, doing doors, carried in their tool box a deck of cards for hinge shim material ( a card is .010 - .011" thick, --1/64" is a light .016") and you don't have to use the whole thing, a 1/2' strip towards outside of hinge mortice throws the door out, conversely on inside of hinge throws in. Maybe thats why to this day I'm a half deck short.
Concerning screws---Vix Bits
Heres one for you -- I was doing doors ( was on a several man door crew ) for a Co. over at a Disney resort, many years ago. During final inspection ( owners, not building ), the owners inspector checked door hinge screwing by putting on a cotton glove, and running fingers down the hinges on jam and door, if glove cought on screw ( screw not square in or had been cammed out ), he turned down door. They replaced a lot of screws there.
Roger
The gloved finger on the hinge bit would disqualify just about all residential interior or exterior doors prehung in distributor doorshops today. Name a state and I've been in door shops there, watching them bang 'em out.
Never saw a predrilled hole, ever, in a softwood jamb.
I had a part-time job for a while to fix "angled or mangled" screws on doors and built-ins in a small, high-end condo - the contractor-architect insisted that all replaced screws were doweled and a new pilot drilled. He'd inspect with a piece of cheese-cloth.
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Phill Giles<!----><!---->
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Why would you bevel the hinge side?
Binding? Surprised me too. I've never done it, or seen any need, but I'm not much of a carp.
All my interior doors here are recycled from a gov't institution, all with square hinge side. Maybe being 3/4hr firedoors had something to do with it? They went into my frames just fine without a hinge side bevel, 3 ballbearing hinges/door. Heavy suckers.
Maybe we could get Rez to check those hundred or so he has on hand and start a survey...PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
As stated earlier, beveling on the hinge side helps if either of these two conditions is present: screws seated incorrectly in the countersunk hinge holes, so as to be a little proud, or a hinge jamb with a wrongway twist. Either can make for a slight bind when going to full close.
Yeah I saw that.
Sounded to me like a jamb problem or sloppy hinge installation. Guess I still don't quite get it. A twisted jamb can be tweaked with a screw or two. Strikes me as better, and easier, than beveling the hinge side. But this isn't how I've made my living.
I used home-grown hickory for my frames. A bit of a challenge. And if a severe twist had occurred, a screw into the framing might have just pulled the framing... That's when I grab a different board. Not worth the fight, or the bevel.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
If you are not comfortable using a plane, use a circular saw and straight edge. Set the base for 1° ,this will give you about 1/16" bevel. This is all you need for hinge side clearance.
I noticed some posts mentioned 3 or 4°, this would be fine for the latch side but too much for the hinge side.I try for 3/16" bevel on the latch side if the doors are 1 3/4" thick,1/8" if they are 1 3/8" thick.
You can clean up the saw marks with a sanding block and 120 grit paper.
mike
Eric,
I generally hang less than 10 doors a year---so I am not that fast.
If I am only doing one I will usually just use hand tools like Like my Bailey #7( which was my Dads---and my grand dads before him)--- It's fun, not particulary efficient and fairly easy.
If I am doing more than 1------- I use a circ. saw with a NICE blade in it---and buff things up nicely with a porter cable random orbit sander. Really polishes things up---and lets you ease any sharp edges.
I do Use a straight edge which I made EXACTLY as Shep described. At one time ,I had 2---one for my corded---and one for my cordless saw. Eventually I got rid of the one for the cordless saw---as the cordless is a bit under powered to begin with---and usually seems to run out of juice about 2/3 the way down the door.
Usually I am re-using existing hardware to some extent----morticing hinge leaves by hand etc.
I figure about 2 hours a piece---but once everything is set up and I get going it works out to about 1-1/2 hours per door..
Last time I did this I did 6 doors---and luckily they were pre-beveled.
Best thing you can do for the next time is get Gary Katz' book---The Door Hangers Handbook---- it helped me a lot---and not being a bright guy I tend to re-read it a couple times a year just to keep thing fresh in my mind
Stephen
Both AWI (Architectural Woodworkers Institute), and WDMA (Wood Door Manufacturers' Association) agree on this one. Beveled and eased edges.
The bevel should be "one-eighth in two inches"--meaning 1/8" projected over a 2" thickness. This works out to be a 3-degree bevel.
Beveling the hinge edge allows for shimming to increase-OR DECREASE-the gap without putting the hinge in a bind. Beveling the lock edge allows for free-swinging clearance during the operation of the door.
"Kinky for Gov. of Texas"
Beveling the hinge edge allows for shimming to increase-OR DECREASE-the gap without putting the hinge in a bind.
Thank you. Now it makes sense.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Thanks. I learned something new today. Hinge side bevels actually make sense to me now. Who'd a thunk it?Bill
"Beveling the hinge edge allows for shimming to increase-OR DECREASE-the gap..."Excuse my ignorance, but how can you shim the hinge to decrease the gap? Do you intentionally mortise too deep and then have to shim all hinges?
BruceT
The usual means of accomplishing this is to take the hinge apart and clamp the flat in a vise. Now tap the barrels to the outside to change their angle. I think you can see how this would work.Now, instead of this, apply a narrow shim behind the flat of the hinge vertically on the edge opposite the barrel. The effect will be to tilt the hinge and move the barrel, narrowing the gap.George Patterson
I see what you mean. I have bent the barrels to correct for too much gap or hinge barrels that don't line up top middle and bottom. I guess I could have shimmed them quicker.It seems to me that by beveling the hinge side of the door you will have started out with a larger than normal gap so that shimming the edge opposite the barrel just brings it back toward normal.BruceT
You might be right. I don't usually bevel the hinge side myself. The only time I do so is when I'm hanging a door in an old frame and the frame is a bit crooked. If the hinge side binds, then I'll bevel the door.George Patterson
If the hinge side binds, then I'll bevel the door
George,
You probably know this already, but for other people reading, you don't have to bevel the complete side of the door if the hinges are "bottoming out". All you have to do is cut the hinge mortise a bit deeper one one end only. That is, the mortise (aka gain) will no longer be parallel with the plane of the door edge, but at an angle of several degrees. The resultant "V" shape in the hinge (when looking down from the top) provides enough clearance so that the hinges don't bind, and the screw heads don't bottom out on each other. In essence, re-cutting the hinge mortises accomplishes the same thing as beveling the entire door edge.
Bruce, decreasing a gap using shims is an old carpenters trick.
First, you have to decide which gap you are trying to decrease. If you are trying to decrease the gap on the hinge side, you place the shims only on one side (you would be placing a slim strip of a shim closest to the stop) of the screws. This "teeters" the hinge and forces the knuckle closer to the jamb.
If you want to decrease it more, you do the same thing with the other leaf.
If you want to decrease the gab at the strike, you would place the shims closest to the knuckle. This teeters the doors toward the strike.
Most of the old timers used matchbook covers for their shims. Heavy business card stock works good. You might have to put a couple of layers on, but eventually, you can move a door 1/4" if you have to.
Don't tell anyone our secret, OK?
jimfka (formerly known as) blue
Clever! And to think that all this time I've been bending the hinge barrels to achieve the same effect.
BruceT
Bending the hinge barrels is faster. It can mar higher quality hinges so be careful. but almost all the hinges I work with are junk anyway. You can take a short straight edge and lay it against the barrels to get them all bent the same. It's easier to get the pin back in if they are all the same. I use a Crescent wrench. I close down the jaws tight on the barrel.
But you can't do any of this stuff if the door is to tight in the opening. I bevel both sides and give a healthy clearance.
On interior doors you can give it a lot more because air infiltration isn't an issue.
On exterior doors the weatherstripping is what dictates your bevels and sizing.
We just moved into an older house and the home owner has two types of weatherstripping on the exterior doors. They are so tight that you can't get them to close and latch. It depends on your lifestyle also. I'm landscaping the front yard, working in the back yard, and building a shed on the side yard. So I'm in and out of the exterior doors all the time. It is extremely annoying to not be able to swing a door closed. I took both storm doors off. And we have an inside cat that can't be outside. My wife wants her to have kittens and finding a breeder is taking forever. Meanwhile the cat is desperately trying to find a mate and watches the door for any opportunity to excape and breed. so every time I go through one of these doors I have to make sure it latches. I say fix the cat and be done with it. But oh no!
Most of the old timers used matchbook covers for their shims.
I had to go out and fix a broken astrigal the other day, one hinge needed shimming a bit so I loosened the hinge and out drooped a Marlboro lid, the old thin cardboard kind.
My boss built this house about 15 years ago. I took the lid back and threw it on his desk and asked him if he used to smoke Marlboro's!
He just grinned - I told him where it came from. He said he used to smoke em and had probably used it.
Stanley hinges used to come with a sheet of perforated cardboard just for shimming.
Doug
Edited 10/20/2007 10:04 pm ET by DougU
How'd it all work out?
I completed this sort of thing, swapping out all internal doors for my General for one of his clients. They were all solid 6 panel masonite doors.
You need to scribe all sides, including those to be beveled whether it needs to be trimmed or not, (if top is okay, then you don't need to scribe, obviously!)...then you will be able to keep track of how much you have taken off during the planing. I use a jig made by Gary Katz to hold the door in place while scribing and it is foolproof. I used 3 hinges because the doors were all solid...I don't like just using 2 hinges on a solid door slab. Obviously no problem on hollow cores. 1 to 1 1/2 hours is about right depending upon the fit, your help and whether the doors are all on the same floor.
Good luck...take some pics while you're at it!
"The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a governmental program" -Ronald Reagan
This thread has been going for a year now....I don't know why, but..........
The job has long been completed, came out very well.
I built door stands and assembled the right tools; mortised the hinges by hand with a chisel sharpened keenly by the very same hands.
I check the openings for square and level and such including how well the current doors fit wich was pretty decent. Most cases I was able to transfer the hinge placements exactly from the door I took off to the one I was fitting.
Made some minor adjustments then hung it and scoped out what else was needed.
One or two I had to make more than a trip ot two to the work bench but it went very well and within the time frame I had speculated.
Eric[email protected]
sorry. did not need to beat a dead horse. I'm glad it came out well."The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a governmental program" -Ronald Reagan