Seems to me me all the hoopla regarding big government could be remedied if the government would provide tax credits to anyone who would supply themselves with a hot water tank that has an additional storage tank wrapped around the outside of the heated tank.
Then the interior heat of the home and the heat escaping from the heated water tank could migrate to the wrap around storage tank and pre heat that storage water before entry into the heated tank thus lessening the energy and money needed to heat the water and make everybody happy.
So whatta think Fonz?
Edited 2/27/2003 2:01:59 PM ET by rez
Replies
Eak!!!!!! First they mess up with low flush toilets, now you want them near your water heater?
Good to see you're not a Ward of the state.
One problem with it is that it will only affect a realatively small amount of water that you can store in the 3/4" or so space. For an grain it would be much cheaper to put in a little more insulation.
There is a product used to capture waste heat off the drain water.
Saw an article about those once. A heat exchanger to capture heat from waste water from your dishwasher, shower ect.. Made a lot of sense, until I found the cheapest one I could, about $600, plus plumbing changes. Probably pay for itself in 100 years or so.
Don't see where it'd make sense for the government to mandate these proposed changes. Wonder when they'll do it.
Bill- I was thinking more along the lines of a totally separate 4 to 6" wide tank that would be placed down over the top and then around the heated watertank.
The outer tank could act simply extract heat from the inner tank, akin to keeping the fridge door open to cool the house.
I still plan to explore a system of extracting attic heat to pre-heat water. Granted, less efficient than regular glazed panels on the roof, but much less complicated. Just run a circulating pump when the attic is at its warmest in the afternoon, say 100-120 degrees, and drain that loop for a couple of months in the winter when it might get below freezing in the attic. Pre-heating your water from 50 to 100-120 degrees has got to save beaucoup money. Solar roof panels using potable water have to be protected from freezing in the winter, though there are systems which use antifreeze in the solar part, and then heat is exchanged to the potable pipes via an enclosed bath system.
Ding ding ding ding ding !!!!
I think the answer is right there.
Put the loop of copper in the attic... UNDER the insulation.
You heat the house anyway. All that heat that ends up in the insulation is being wasted.
It would never freeze in the winter, either, unless you lost your house heat. And if that happened, your other plumbing would freeze before the attic loop.
Quittin' Time
But that only gets to 70 degrees, not much of a boost from the 50 degree incoming temp. OTOH, I was in the attic Saturday afternoon and it was cooking, maybe 80-90 degrees. In fact, I left the access door open to warm up the third floor. Its just those few nights a year where it could possible freeze that have me worried. Oh well, it is project number 50 on the top 100 list, so I have time to think about it.
You can also protect your solar panels from freezing by building a drain back system. I'll attatch a .pdf file that shows some examples.
I intend to eventually put this type of system in my house.
Won't work in all houses, but perfect for my particular house. From what little I've been able to learn, most people with Southern roof exposure could benifit from solar water heating. One thing I really like about the drainback system is that it protects the water from freezing, and getting too hot. Excessive heat, particualarly in a system sized to provide hot water in the winter, is a real killer of anti-freeze solutions.
rez,
Sounds like you've already fabricated one for yourself and now you're looking for a tax credit 'cause you just figured your taxes!
Another day, another tool.
I see a couple of problems with your idea:
1.The outer tank would act as a heat sink and you would just end up with a "2 stage" or 2 tank water heater.
2.Most homes are heated with gas (or so I think) and also have gas water heaters. It would not matter if heat escapes out (or in for that matter) of the water heater. Those BTUs of heat all cost the same. I always chuckle when I see insulation blankets on heaters in all gas or all electric homes- what's the point?
Now if you are talking about a situation of cheap oil heat and expensive electric rates with a electric WH ,thats a whole diffrent enchalida. Additional insulation could make sense.
That said, do you remember during the Carter administration the solar tax credits? That always bugged me that that program went away. So do you think Mr. oil , I mean George W. is going to bring the program back?
I heat water 12 months of the year and the house 4-5 months. I like that water tank insulation for those other 7-8 months. WH is also in basement, which isn't heated. When I lived in an apartment in NC, we were more concerned about insulating the WH to cut down on AC use in the summer than to keep heat in the tank in the winter
I stand corrected. Never gave any thought to air conditioning. I have been in over a thousand houses up here in Alaska and have only seen one.
Now be sure to put that blanket on so it covers up the pop-off valve and the covers and the instructions
Ya, a heat sink warming the entering cold water before being drawn into the hot water tank.
I don't make enough money to afford heating my house by the hot water tank.
Rez
I think you missed my points. (my fault ,I am one slow typist, so I try to minimize my replys).
By having a heat sink off of your hot water it cools down to provide heat to the incoming cold water in the "preheat" tank. therefor the water in the main tank will need to be heated again to some degree. No net gain in energy savings.
As far as heating your home off the WH , lots of people (ok, some people) use WHs for house heating. Seriously, If both your WH and your house heater use the same fuel you can't be heating much of your house via the WH. I am making several assumptions, the WH is in condtioned (heated ) space and both appliances operate at about the same effiency. If heat leaks out of the WH (which is for sure ) it is going to take additional fuel (btus)to reheat it. It is nothing but an unintended radiator. This is going to take a small amount of work off of your house heater.(it is not enough to make a big diffrence ) . It should use the same amount of energy to produce a btu of heat in a Wh as in a house heater weather it be a boiler or furnance.
tim
Oh, no wonder it hasn't been done.:O)
I just finished a preheater for my domestic hot water tank, wrapped a copper coil around the stack of my shop stove, covered it with a shield and ran a line to a second 40 gal water heater hooked in series with the main tank. Used a 1/25 hp pump to circulate the water, pump is hooked to a thermostat shuts off when the stack gets below 100 degrees. Only had it a few days but it maintains the water temp in the tank at 90 degrees with the stove burning part time. For the summer I plan on doing something with solar to help take the edge off the 42 degree well water temp. Pans on the stove are not soup they help add humidity to the shop.
Armin,
Nice work as usual. Not as pretty as the stairs... but I can appreciate the setup.
I'm curious on the right hand tank, at the bottom by the drain valve, what is the stub coming up w/ the ball valve for?
-Erik
Stray,
I'm curious on the right hand tank, at the bottom by the drain valve, what is the stub coming up w/ the ball valve for?
The right hand tank is the main tank, the stub in question is for a circulating branch line running to the kitchen. The kitchen sink is the longest run in the house and with the water saver faucet it takes forever to get hot water down at the far end of the building. When I redid the plumbing to accommodate the preheater tank I installed a 1/4 in copper line along side the kitchen run stopping just short of the sink and insulated the heck out of them. I plan on hooking a circulating pump to the tank operated by a timer so it only runs during the normal use hours. In essence this is an extension of the hot water tank since the line has a greater R factor than the tank itself. This concept is commenly used in motels and such where lines are 100's of feet long, this is new to me so I'll be interested to see how well it works in a residential application.
Are you familiar with the idea of a solar pre-heater? also called a batch heater. Basically just an extra tank in an insulated box with glazing on the sunny side. Yes, somewhat dependent on climate, but can work anywhere with the right adjustments.
So far, sunshine is still free, isn't it?
Average Joe:
I'll wait here while YOU go wrestle the wild alligator.
Solar hot water makes tons of sense. If done right it'll save you lots of money.
My dream is to eventually have some panels to provide hot water in the summer, and also help run a radiant heat system in the winter.
Surprised it's not used more. The solar sites I've gone to seem much more interested in the electrical panels. Though those systems are still too expensive to make sense in most cases. Course it is more fun to tinker with the electronics involved with these then doing plumbing.
For those not familiar with it, here's an article about a basic system.
>>So far, sunshine is still free, isn't it?
Not for long, the government will figure out a way to tax it.
Tom
Sunshine is still free. At least until some private company starts a scare campaign on the dangers of unmodified sunshine. Then they come out with modified "safe" sunshine in a bottle.
Not going to happen? That's what happened to tap water. In most places safer now than 40 years ago people have been convinced that bottled water, at $1.25 a pint, is better even though most of the bottled stuff comes directly from the tap at $.05 per thousand gallons.
If someone had told me that glorified tap water would sell for five times what gasoline goes for I would have asked them what they were smoking and where I could get some. Marketing.
4lorn:
Great reply, worked for a long time in Kent, WA, and, just like you say, water out of the tap there tastes just like 'Aleaska" bottled water (bottled in Kent BTW)- with the Cl eliminated chemically.
prefer my own well anyway
Clean water, no living thing can survive without, $.05 per thousand gallons.
Diamond, anybody can do without, $10,000 a carat.
What's the explanation? I think it's more than just marketing or supply and demand. DeBeer conspiracy?
Tom
Diamonds are synonymous with DeBeers. They were carefully marketed in the 20s by use of product placements in movies and public events. To this day DeBeers loans the multi million dollar diamond trinkets to the stars at event like the Oscars. All the diamonds seen in the classic movie "Diamonds are a Girls Best Friend" with Marilyn Monroe were on loan from DeBeers. Today they would call it product placement.
DeBeers, as part of this campaign, created most of the bromides associated with diamonds. The idea of a diamond engagement ring,"Diamonds are a girls best friend", "Diamonds are forever" and the suggested "investment" of a set number of months salary. Were all part of a series of marketing campaigns.
The mythology that diamonds are rare is largely overblown. The fact is that DeBeers buys up, or buys controlling interest, in almost all diamond mines. Controlling the market they then stockpile, last I read DeBeers has diamond stocks more easily measured in tons than carats, the output of the mines creating an artificial shortage.
The method of sale is unique. There are only a few people that DeBeers will sell to. Something like, from memory, 100. For all practical purposes the entire world supply of gem quality diamonds comes through these few people. The offer from DeBeers comes in the form of a packet selected by the company. The offer is strictly take it or leave it. If a dealer angers DeBeers, for say undercutting the company price structure, the packet offer will be full of inferior stones with few to make a profit on. Toe the company line and the packets get better. Classic behavioral control.
If you are interested there are several good books on the subject. One of the better ones:
The Last Empire: De Beers, Diamonds, and the World
by Stefan Kanfer
Available at many book stores or Amazon.com. A good read well worth the time. A fascinating look into money, power and influence.
An amazing story about how to control the perceived value of a product through monopoly and marketing. Even the outcome of WW2, diamonds are vital for military production and DeBeers sold diamonds to all sides, was effected by diamonds and DeBeers. Today DeBeers has controlling influence over some smaller nations and can effect, to some extent, even the largest and most powerful nations on the planet.
I see that you have done quite a bit of research on the subject. Isn't price fixing illegal? The whole practice looks pretty shady to me but of course the operation must be perfectly legal otherwise somebody would have said something.
Tom.
one thing that has always bugged me
And I am NOT defending anyone here
You need to get somewhere today (death in family , buisness deal,hot date etc) call airline. It's gonna cost you 1000 dollars for what is normally a 200 dolllar fare.
Hurricane or tornado hits...... half inch osb suddlenly cost 15 or 20 dollars.
what's the diffrence between the lumber yard and the airline?
Lumber yard usually gets popped and airline doesn't
For airlines, you can get a bareavment(sp?) ticket by paying full fare upfront then with proof of emergency (ask the airline) they will refund about half.
Not the best but better than a kick in the but with a frozen boot.I'm all here....... 'cause I'm not all there!
For airlines, they will discount the ticket 50% for bonafide family emergencies/deaths. These are the trips you want to use your frequent flier miles for. And they don't have to be your miles. My best friend is a rabbi, and when he needs to fly somewhere at the last minute, there is a list of congregants who are willing to pony up their miles. Last year when my dad started to go downhill, each of us made a couple of cross country trips on his remaining 200K miles. And my sister got her last leg with the remaining 23,500 miles plus 1500 she bought to round it out.
A friend died a few months back and by the time I got info on the funeral, it was 3PM in Oregon and the funeral was at 11AM the next day in Ohio. Out of curiosity, I checked flights, and found that I could take a 11:30 out of PDX, transfer in Chicago and be in Columbus by 9AM EST, drive to the funeral, hang for 2 hours afterwards, drive back to Columbus and via Denver be back at PDX at 9PM. Your basic 22 hrs of travel hell, but the odd thing was, the non-discounted fare was only $279. Sadly, with the long waits at airports, it wasn't doable. If I'd had an extra hour that first night, I could have done it.
REZ for U.S. CONGRESS 2004
Nah, I got my eyes on the House.