Years ago the hot water line to our kitchen sink – which ran under the slab kitchen floor – broke and the plumber “fixed” it by rerouting the hot water line from the lower level of our tri-level, up thru the living room wall and then thru the living room’s cathedral ceiling thru the space in the roof (he said he put insulation in!) above the kitchen ceiling and down the back wall of the kitchen to where the sink is (probably about 30 feet total). Every winter the line freezes if we don’t turn the water off if we expect it to get below freezing (which is quite a lot here in Ohio). We would like to go back to the original set-up as we want to sell the house next year, but to do so we have been told we will have to completely pull up the carpet in our living room (12.5 x 20feet), break the concrete slab in there and install another line, encased in some kind of pipe and concreted over, then go under the wall to the kitchen and take out the cabinet which is in the way, then dig the kitchen floor up to finish the installation with the casing, concreting, etc. Is there anything YOU can suggest? Apart from the expense, the mess is going to be awful!
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I am really, really worried about this as we hope to sell the house next year and would have to tell any future purchasers about this problem. CCD9
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Install a point of use water heater under the sink or in a corner cabinet. It can be filled from the still working cold line.
Jeez, thats awful considerate of you. I`d be more likely to leave the problem for the new owner. If you`ve lived with it for this long, let them decide how to handle it. If you don`t feel comfortable not alerting them to the fact then go ahead and tell them, but fixing the prob. yourself isnt going to make or break the deal....IMHO.
The 2 x 8 floor joists that span 25' in my cica 1906 home are horrendously undersized. I have no plans to correct the situation in order sell the house when the time comes. Let the buyer beware!
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Caveat emptor doesn't apply here in Ohio. We have to sign a disclosure form before closing on a house - actually I think when it's put on the market we have to. Even if we didn't have to, I wouldn't want to sell without informing new buyers about this problem. Conversely, I would hope to receive the same consideration from a seller. The other side of this is that I am having my kitchen floor replaced and want to do whatever it takes before I get it done. And if it entails digging up floors, I would rather do the digging before the new floor is in. CCD9
There's nothing wrong with rerouting a failed water supply line when the alternative would have been a rather expensive, messy and time consuming job. Obviously, the route taken is partially outside the heating envelope and inadequately insulated. Since it is easier and much less expensive to make drywall and insulation repairs, even if it involves an entire cathedral ceiling, I would suggest going for the section(s) of piping that are the center of the problem. Bring them into the envelope if at all possible AND over-insulate. If you still have doubts, add some of that heating tape and cover it back up.
You can then disclose to the potential buyer that there had been a problem under the slab but now it is better than new with a new run of pipe. Do you know the reason for the original pipe failure? Could you reasonably expect the remaining section - cold water - to fail in a similar manner? If so, while working on the hot water run you could be a good guy and put in a parallel run for the cold water, just in case. You would then come across as a caring guy when you show the buyer where you did that and how to tie in in the future should there be a problem with the cold water run.
That was the other way that was recommended. That we bring the pipe down into the house thru the beam that runs across the living room (which sounds as tho it is hollow) then do a couple of zigs and zags to get it thru the kitchen, dining room and then back into the kitchen. (The beam/cathedral ceiling are too high to match up with the kitchen ceiling.) We asked about heat tape before but it was nixed for the small space it would be in. The pipe is supposedly insulated already. I really like the idea of the point-of-use heater, but we also have a dishwasher, and I wonder if it would work with that. I don't use the dishwasher very often but, again, with selling the house I want everything to be in working order. (If it ever gets that way I probably won't want to move!) CCD9
I have a 4 gallon point of use heater in my garage. It recovers pretty fast but runs out of hot water very quickly. I would not want another one. They make a 120 volt 19 gallon short heater for use in mobile homes which would work fine in your case if you have a place to put it under the counter. Lowes sells these.
Seems like you could run new 1/2 " lines below the ceiling along a wall and cover then with a wide piece of trim and paint it . You would not need insulation since the pipes would be inside the heated space
I agree this would work, running new lines in the space and covering them, but don't forget to insulate the cold water line meticulously. During warm humid weather that thing is going to sweat like crazy if not insulated.
Jim
Jim: I don't think sweating will be a problem if so you would have to insulate your washing machine line and the cold water lines under the sinks etc. Supply water is not cold enough usually to cause condensation to occur (unless you are delivering ice water.
There are larger demand hot water heaters. Bosch makes gas and electric models that have no tank and are designed to supply the entire house. They come on when water flows and esentially have no recovery time. Visit their web site for more information.
It is also possible that you could find a more sophisticated plumber with equipment that could find the hot water break under the slab. Then you could cut open the break site to repair it instead of replacing the whole line. Try someone who does industrial work too. They are more likely to have the electronic and acoustic equipment to find leaks.
another vote for the small point of use heater - I've got a 10 gallon, 110v unit in a base cupboard next to the sink, - near instant hot water, worth it not to have to wait, dishwasher heats water if you ask it to, - plenty of hot water to get the pots, pans, and woodenware done before the cycles (doesn't run cool till the third cycle) on the dishwasher uses all the hot water in the tank -
Lots of thoughts on this one:
A 5 to 10-gallon HWH under the cabinet would be easy and would give the quickest hot water to the sink. Note that dishwashers of the last 20 years will boost the water temp if it is too cold. This is to allow you to have 120F water instead of 140, scald-hazard water.
The plumber may well have insulated the hot water run through the ceiling and that may be part of the problem. You should insulate OUTSIDE of the pipe run. But leave the pipe close to the inside drywall (use nail plates to protect it as it goes through joists) and DON'T put insulation between the pipe and the drywall. Note that there may be limitation in how much and where you can put holes in the joists. You must leave 5/8" of wood on vertical studs and the outer thirds of joists and rafters should be left along without careful study.
Heat trace might help the coldest parts of the pipe run but would involve ripping up the ceiling again. I would also be really leary of put an electrical heat source in an insulated wall. Some heat trace is crappy some is less crappy. I wouldn't put any of it in my walls.
If you ever run pipe where it might freeze, consider PEX plastic piping. It is less likely to burst if the water inside freezes (but can't be thawed with a welder like metal pipe can). I have friends who mush dog on PE sled runners at -50F.
Go with the small HWH under the cabinet. Easy. Fixes the problem. For many uasge patterns, it would actually save energy. Certainly would be the most convenient due to instant response.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Thanks to everyone who responded on this, and if anyone else has any more thoughts on this problem, please go ahead and post them. I am really confused now! Just don't know which way we should go. But you have given me much food for thought. Some of the things I didn't know about so it's been an education, albeit one I didn't want! The point-of-use water heater seems to be the best way to go IF it can supply the dishwasher too. But I think I still have in the back of my mind the cold water pipe that is still underground. If that one goes as well I am back where I started! I am very interested in the idea that maybe they can find just the place where the line leaked and fix only that. Does anyone know of anywhere in Ohio that I can call about this? And what are everyone else's thoughts about the other line maybe breaking. I guess houses shift constantly and because the line wasn't encased in anything maybe a rock rubbed on it until it broke - that's what the plumber thought anyway. CCD9
Where are you at in Ohio? email me if you're in NW.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Does anyone know about directional underground drilling? Could you more or less replace the broken pipe this way, to a known spot under the slab? I am certain you can...but have NO IDEA about the price.
Electrical contractor installers do this every day, across roads and such, installing conduit.
My fear with using the tank under the sink is what happens when the cold water line breaks??
I agree with heat tape never going in walls...I have heard of way too many fires from that.
If you do put in a replacement pipe...put in a small handfull for spares!
How about actively circulating water to that fixture? I suppose that needs another pipe...
I personally applaud your concerns about disclosing everything. Just remember, when you buy your next place....the next folks might not be so considerate!
Can you put heat trace wire around the offending section that freezes? I can't visualize the cathedral ceiling setup. I'm suggesting the custom sized style of trace. Good HDW stores have it. hook up a thermal switch and tell them that is your cure. It'll work and cost you only 30.00 a winter for the power.
Sympathies to you on this. Sometimes the biggest mess is easiest & fastest. If you gotta do it, go stones out and do it.