I’m just finishing a whole house remuddle for a client. They had lousy water pressure before we started, but since all the plumbing was going to be replaced, the plumber suggested waiting until everything was done before we started worrying.
It’s done, and the water pressure is still lousy, but slightly better.
The well is shared with a neighbor whose pressure is fine.
I backfed the the house from the boiler drain on the well, and that pressure is acceptable, so we’re assuming there’s some sort of blockage between the ball valve at the tee that splits the water for the two houses and the the new plumbing.
There appears to be a poly line to somewhere before the foundation, where it then turns to copper which runs through the foundation, which then connects to the new pex.
I took off the laundry sink spigot areator, at the far end of the line, and it was almost completely clogged with gritty sediment. The laundry sink and faucet are new, and have only been running about a month. There is an in line filter with a 30 micron trap.
Plumber says he’ll do whatever the HO wants, but that the line from the well is probably deformed and we probably need to dig a new line in. The old line runs under a new porch where it enters the foundation. the ground clearance is about 18″. Oy!
The HO is convinced that there is some way that we can blow the line thinking it is a sediment build-up.
Plumber thinks that’s just pizzing in the wind, but…
Anybody ever do this?… and how?
Any other ideers?
Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy, Winterlude by the telephone wire, Winterlude, it’s makin’ me lazy, Come on, sit by the logs in the fire. The moonlight reflects from the window Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand. Come out tonight, ev’rything will be tight, Winterlude, this dude thinks you’re grand.
Replies
In the "what its worth department" is there a common pressure tank and if so is the well equipted with a "morrison " type of well head? Do you have iorn in the water? Years ago I had this sort of setup at the well. After only about 5 years the 3/4" copper water line that ran to the house from the pressure tank had nearly filled with iron sludge. About 100 feet in length. It took forever to fill the washing machine. Of course this made itself known in early winter. So we had to put up with it until the frost came out the spring and we could dig in a new water line. Once things warmed up I installed a 1" line thinking it would take longer to fill up with crud.
To condense an otherwise long story. We shortly thereafter replaced the tank and "morrison" syle well head with a weld on "pitless addaptor and a pressure tank in the house. Turns out the "Iron sludge" was caused by the oxidizing effects of the air mixing with water as a result of the "morrison" head system. As the water flowed out of the bottom of the tank it carried the sludge into the line filling it up. Fast forward 27 years later no repeat problems. However after the conversion I had to add an iron filter to the water system. Turns out we have about 1ppm disolved iorn. Once it meets oxygen in the sink it stains things a rusty brown. The filter solved the rust stain problem to the point we can use chlorine beach on the laundry whites without misshap.
Roger
Yes, there is iron in their water. And, yes, it has a rusty, leaking expansion type well seal with a mushroom type vent.They put in a standard water filter long ago, and it has kept their clothes from staining.A pitless adaptor may help after we get the pressure fixed. Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
Try a drain auger in the line and see if it helps.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
You got a clean one?<g> Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
I toss it out and buy a new one if I need one, I KNOW where it's been.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Simple solution is to put as large a well bladder tank as you can accomodate at the entry to the house from the well. The plumber is probably right that the pipe is kinked or dented somewhere and it's probably MUCH cheaper and a better solution to put the expansion tank in the house (a 40 gallon would be fine) with multiple homes on a single well each home should have an expansion tank and we sometimes put one on the outflow of the water softener or filter as well.
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Michael, there's a 40 gal. pressure tank at the well house. The pressure gauge is sticking, so I haven't been able to get a right reading, but I am assuming it's ok, based on the neighbor's pressure.The well cuts off at 50, on at 30 when the gauge works.Not sure I understand your solution. Are you saying put another pressure tank on the incoming line in the basement? Or is an expansion tank another animal? And, another one after the filter?This would eliminate digging a new line? It's at least a $1000 job, and not easy {northern Chatham rock country), and, heavy on the landscaping intrusion (homeownerette's a landscape architect and has been planting the place for 25 years).Sorry if I'm being dense, but inexpensive would be good... and, I'd love to get this job done<G> Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
Just a brainstorm:
Can you use an electrical fish tape fed through the poly line. Use a metal detector to locate the end as you push it through (metal detector likely won't detect the middle of the tape). Push it through until it is restricted. Assuming that is your kink or block, or there is a small crack allowing sediment in, you can dig up this spot and repair the line without trenching the whole lawn. Be careful if they decided to run the pump electric in the same trench.
-Nate
Pump has it's own meter at the well house, no power in the waterline trench... a locator might be able to "see" a tape, or Sphere's auger... Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
Should be fine as long as it's magnetic. Last locator I rented was a Schonstedt - looks like a yellow rod with a box on the end and is about 3-4 feet long. Cost $45/day if I recall correctly.
Simple to use once I took off my steel toes. If you hold it at an angle from different directions you can get an idea of how deep objects are and exactly where to dig.
Is this a 3/4" poly supply pipe ? .....or larger?
If 3/4" or larger.....a drain jetter should work well if it's just sludge in the pipe and there are no significant kinks...or any mid-length barbed couplings. Tip on mine is about 9/16" diameter.
Don't think you said how far from the wellpit to the house. My hose is 75' but you can get them longer. A 700 psi pressure washer should work fine for this, but a 1200 would be even better. That's about the advisable limit for pressure. (Might get away with 1500) You might be able to rent one or your plumber may know of someone who has one you can borrow/beg.
I'd open both ends of the pipe to do the job (at well pit and in house). If the hose won't proceed thru at some point, that *may* be because you found a kink or collapse. Mark the hose with a piece of tape and measure after you have it withdrawn. Might be the only kink or might be just the first one.
Edited 2/11/2008 9:12 pm ET by HootOwl
Edited 2/11/2008 9:14 pm ET by HootOwl
I think it's a 1" line, and the well is about 100' from from the foundation entry. I am a little worried about a closet auger or drain jetter seeing how it's a potable water supply... but we just shocked the well, so that ought to take care of it, eh?<G> Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
I wouldn't personally worry about using the jetter on a potable water pipe. If you open it on both ends all the stuff that comes loose will flush out one end or the other. Withdraw the hose slowly to get a good scrub and flush.
My 75'would do this 100' run easy. Come at it from both ends.
If you'd be worried about contamination from a previously used hose, wash/wipe it down and then coil it up in a bucket of bleach water for a few minutes before you use it.
When done, hook up the well end of things first and flush the pipe with a few gallons of well water before reattaching to the house plumbing.
The jetter would be my first tool of choice for the situation and the suspicions concerning possible sludge/slime obstruction.
If you do eventually give the jetter a shot, here's some advice: Get all of the air out of the pressure washer by running it for a minute without the jetter hose attached at all. Then attach the jetter hose without the tip on the end and run that way for a minute to flush any pieces of crud out of the hose. It only takes a tiny piece to plug one of the tiny orifices on the tip. Then screw the tip on and make sure all four holes are open. If one is plugged, remove the tip and clear the hole with a sewing needle.
I'm hoping you don't have kinked or collapsed pipe there. 100' run thru rocky gound sounds like a recipe for trouble at some point. BTDT. Don't suppose there's any chance that they laid this thru a steel pipe or PVC raceway, eh?
Wonder if you could suck a "mouse" on a cord thru the line with a wet/dry shopvac. Swab it out. Don't lose it if you try or you will have an obstruction. I'd still use/try the jetter myself.
i never believe what a old cheapo pressure gauge says after nearly getting drowned by one one winter day after it said zero
i install only stainless steel liquid filled gauges , cost about $15 here
i have never had to replace one so i dont know how long they last , but i have been using them for at least 15 years
you are only guessing what you are dealing with until you know some facts
i have seen a lot of sticking pressure controls also
had one go wonky that was only a few months old recently
I'm with you on the cheepo gauges... the HO says this one works fine... if you just keep tapping it LOL Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
I have used a jackhammer type compressor to blow out resrticted water lines, but I don't think you want that type of mess in a basement. It sounds like you have a problem with bacterial iron, any air mixing with the water in the well promotes the growth of this, a leaky fitting in the well will also help add air to the water and increase the growth.
It's a slimy red layer that will stick to the inside of a poly well line, as time goes by it becomes crusty and restricts the flow. Just blowing the line out will remove some of the restriction but only temporarely.
If it's possible to run the line full of chlorinated water and let it set for 24 hours it will help desolve some of the build up, don't allow this mixture to go through the house plumbing it will plug everything.
The homeowner may have to start a regular program of chlorinating the well to keep the problem from returning
You might be on to something... water developed a sulphur odor after the geo thermal recovery unit and new hot water tanks were installed. The plumber said that's usually associated with a bacteria of some sort. Suggested a gallon of clorox, and a hose from the boiler drain to the vent for a half hour to mix things up. Smell is gone.When we shocked the well, there was a lot of bubbling around the seal. Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
Here is a thread from last year that discusses the sulphur and iron problem in some detail.
96096.1
Never did come back to finish up the story... bad host... so...a fish tape made it about 35' from the house... right around an area where the HO had installed a fence. The poly pipe from the well was a thin wall, and given the rocky nature of the land, speculation was that a rock had settled and slowly crushed the pipe.HO elected to replace the line. The footing excavator, who was pretty nimble around the rest of the house, took on the job after all the local pump installers turned down the job, or wanted ridiculous money. Came up with a mini-mini excavator that fit thru a 5' wide x 6 1/2' arbor... ok, it fit thru after they took all the safety equipment.HOs can do laundry and take a shower at he same timeNever did find the old line
If dogs run free, then what must be,
Must be, and that is all.
True love can make a blade of grass
Stand up straight and tall.
In harmony with the cosmic sea,
True love needs no company,
It can cure the soul, it can make it whole,
If dogs run free.
Is this house signficantly higher than the other house?
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
If Snorts in that house, it's plenty high.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Ha, and both the houses are habitated by old friends from the 60's ;) Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
Any other opinions on the expansion tank solution that Shelter Nerd posted? I was under the impression expansion tanks were used on the hot water side of the system. After some internet research, I'm still missing how/what this would work... dang, maybe I should call a plumber? Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
Not an expansion tank. Those have relatively small volume and only good for expansion.What he is talking about is a pressurized STORAGE TANK.If you have a RESTRICTION in the line then you will have full pressure at static condiction, but a large pressure loss when you have signficant water flow.The pressure storage tank will fill SLOWLY when other water is being drawn. And then when water is being used it will supply water until it runs empty.One thing to do is to get a pressure guage on a hose connector. You can install it on the hot water drain or one of the washer faucets or outdoors if it is not too cold.Then measure the static pressure and the pressure when one or more other faucets are being used..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks, I get that<G> Just talked to the plumber about it. He's done a couple, and he says it's not that cheap, maybe a couple of grand.I think I see a fishing trip coming up soon. Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
http://www.aquascience.net/tanks.htm#wellxtrolThis was the first tank price list that I google.Couple of grand seems hight.All it takes to install is a Tee and a couple of feet of pipe. A shutoff valve and pressure guage would be handy..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I'll ask him tomorrow how he's figuring it, but he's always been straight with me... I'll let you know. Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
It's lower by about 25', but then that does depend on my medications at the time<G> Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.