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blown in insulation

alwaysthinking | Posted in General Discussion on January 20, 2005 10:43am

Hi,

Subscriber of FWW and FHB, but brand new to the forum.

We live in the SF Bay Area.  Bought the home earlier in the year and our heating bills are crazy because there is no insulation in the walls or in the floor (there is blown in r-30 cellulose in the attic).

I thought about insulating the rest of the house job myself, but between a bathroom remodel, some drainage work and a second child, I’m going to hire this one out.  We’ve started getting estimates from insulation contractors.  Besides the business-side details (are they licensed, etc), I was wondering if there are questions I should ask?  We’re getting quotes for r13 blown in the walls and kraft-faced batts in the crawlspace. 

Any advice on how to sort the estimates based on quality would be really helpful.

 

Best,  Todd

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Replies

  1. csnow | Jan 20, 2005 11:45pm | #1

    Ok, how much can it really cost to heat in SF?  Joking, 'cause it's been really cold here.

    The thing is, what you really want is to figure out where the heat is going.  Then you can target the work that has the best cost/benefit ratio, which may not turn out to be the walls or the crawlspace.  Odds are you have significant convective losses.

    Ask contractor about performing a blower door test.

    If they say "a what?", or "you do not need that",  call the next guy.

    1. alwaysthinking | Jan 21, 2005 02:10am | #2

      Thanks.  Sounds like a good idea.  I wouldn't be surprised if we have losses everywhere.  The house is in original shape, except for what we've done.  All the windows are old, single pane windows.

      Assuming we still go the route of insulation, any other thoughts on the insulation / contractor qualities?

       

      Todd

  2. User avater
    RichBeckman | Jan 21, 2005 05:49am | #3

    Todd,

    Welcome to Breaktime!!

    If you click on your name above (where it says "To: Todd"), you will open your profile.

    We would appreciate it if you could fill some of that in.

    Thanks!

    You haven't told us much about the house. I'm guessing it is fairly old. How many stories? What does the crawlspace look like (esp. how wet/dry is it)? What is the siding?

    Just because the attic has blown in R30 doesn't mean that most of your heat loss isn't through the attic. A lot of heated air is lost blowing through the myriad holes that often exist between the living area and the attic. This air movement is not stopped by blown in insulation or by batts. Each spot must be hunted down and foamed or otherwise sealed.

    Rich Beckman

    Another day, another tool.

    1. alwaysthinking | Jan 21, 2005 01:43pm | #4

      Hi Rich,

      Sorry for the lack of specificity.  I assumed, perhaps naively, that my original question was relatively straightforward.

      House: built 1949, 1800 sq ft, 1 story ranch.  Foundation is post and beam.  Gas furnace 20-25 years old; insulated heating vents route through the attic crawl space.  The crawl space is limited under the house and is rat proofed.  I've completed some major drainage work on the two sides of the house that encounter water (should credit my dad who is a hydrogeologist and has helped immensely with that project).  The siding of the house is 3/4" shiplapped cedar on 2x4s.  The siding is the sheathing (i.e. no ply underneath). 

      The weather is typical bay area.  In the summer, we have a lot of sun and the temp ranges between 70-85.  In the winter, we get tons of rain and the temp is between 40-60.  Seems pretty good for someone who spent 18 years in VT.

      The furnace works to keep the house 68.  In my son's room, which has only one exterior wall, the temp is relatively warm.  In our room and the third bedroom which have 3 exterior walls, 68 on the thermostat is more like 63.  We have a 4 week old daughter in our room and that has prompted our desire for insulation.  After a couple sleepless nights (yes it is 2:30 am right now), we're ready for some solutions...

      I guess the facts that there is cellulose in the attic and our bedroom is freezing while my son's room is warm led me to the walls and the floors.  The other thing to note is that my son has a stuffed chair against the outside wall and we recently moved it and noticed some mold on the wall behind it.  So it seems like we need to do something with these walls. 

      I just remodeled one bathroom and insulated the walls and included NuHeat.  My wife jokes about moving into that room.

      Sounds like I should consider some more diagnostics first.  Hard to imagine the walls and the floors not being a factor, but that is my feet and common sense talking, not diagnostics.

      Thoughts?

      1. csnow | Jan 21, 2005 05:42pm | #5

        "Sounds like I should consider some more diagnostics first.  Hard to imagine the walls and the floors not being a factor, but that is my feet and common sense talking, not diagnostics."

        Think like air.

        The thing about cold toes is that cold air will generally not come into the bottom of a structure unless it is displacing warm air that has escaped out the top.

        That is why controlling convective losses through the attic plane is nearly always the 'low hanging fruit' in making a structure more comfortable and energy efficient.  In other words, you could go through all the trouble and expense of insulating the walls and the crawlspace, and still have cold toes.  Worse, you could spend a fortune on replacement windows, which is done all the time.

        This is not to say there is no benefit to insulating the walls.  Just that a full diagnosis of the problem will lead to better solutions.

         

        1. alwaysthinking | Jan 21, 2005 09:14pm | #6

          Can I do any of these tests myself?  Should I be walking around with a candle?  Or is this really better handled by people with fancy gizmos and gadgets?

          Thanks,

          Todd

          1. djj | Jan 21, 2005 10:40pm | #7

            Todd,

            Talk to your utility company and see what services they offer. Mine offers a blower test, energy audit, and thermal imaging of your house as a complete package for $60. Much better than using a candle :)

            Regards,

            Dennis

          2. csnow | Jan 22, 2005 12:44am | #8

            "Can I do any of these tests myself?  Should I be walking around with a candle?  Or is this really better handled by people with fancy gizmos and gadgets?"

            Open front door while it is cold and still out.  Turn off any fans or HVAC.  Make some smoke (safely).  Watch where it goes.  Should be easy to find some incense sticks for smoke-making in SF.

          3. User avater
            RichBeckman | Jan 22, 2005 01:49am | #9

            Todd,I imagine you would benefit from wall insulation. But I'm not sure that just blowing in cells is a good thing to do since you would be packing them right up against the back of the siding. I'm not qualified to say that you shouldn't do it. Maybe you can, but it strikes me as wrong.Read this thread:http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=52809.1But I don't know what alternative you have as far as the walls go.Your crawl space used to be wet? But now is dry due to work outside??
            What is the crawl space floor? Dirt? Gravel? Plastic? You might be better off to seal the crawl and insulate the perimeter instead of putting fiberglass in the crawl ceiling.
            Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.

          4. alwaysthinking | Jan 22, 2005 06:47pm | #10

            Rich,

            Thanks for the link.  I agree that insulating the walls poses a challenge.  The other option that came to mind, as crazy as it sounds, is to remove the top and bottom piece of siding and slide in kraft face batts.  Maybe it isn't crazy, but I don't have any free time till late in the summer and my wife thought it was crazy.

            You said,  "Your crawl space used to be wet? But now is dry due to work outside??What is the crawl space floor? Dirt? Gravel? Plastic? You might be better off to seal the crawl and insulate the perimeter instead of putting fiberglass in the crawl ceiling."

            Yes, the crawlspace was designed to allow for water under the house.  It is vented but in the rainy season the house would see 4-6 inches of standing water.  I decided to change that.  If I wanted to seal the crawl, then I'd also have to introduce conditioned air, which I don't have.  The crawl is also ratproofed-- a 1" layer of cement on the floor.

            Got the first estimate yesterday.  For the crawl (1700 sq ft), the quote is $1500 and the 700 sq ft of walls is $1300.  I guess that was what I was expecting.  Hard to compare those numbers to elsewhere in the US because the cost of living is much higher here.

            Todd

          5. DanH | Jan 22, 2005 11:00pm | #12

            If you can remove enough exterior siding to slide in FG batts (which I doubt), you can also remove the siding and blow in cellulose. A far better choice for your circumstances.One semi-related thing to check. Some homes in your area apparently have no true cold air return, but rather the furnace just draws air from the crawlspace. Not good. Make sure you have a true cold air return duct system, and consider adding additional cold air returns in the far corners of the house.

          6. User avater
            RichBeckman | Jan 23, 2005 01:06am | #15

            "The crawl is also ratproofed-- a 1" layer of cement on the floor."I would suggest taping a piece of plastic to that slab for a day to see how much moisture is coming up through it. Your crawl might not be as dry as you think.Maybe just get a small scrap piece of the fiberglass you plan to use and stick it down there for as long as you're willing to wait. Then see if it is dry and mold free.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.

          7. alwaysthinking | Jan 23, 2005 04:02pm | #16

            Thanks everyone.  Most people are mentioning cellulose.  I'm trying to get up to speed on the differences between fiberglass and cellulose.  Most of comparative information for cellulose and FG I can find on the web seems to be linked to specific manufacturers.  Is there any independent association out there that does a nice job comparing the two?

            Otherwise I'm going to call PG&E on Monday to see if they can do some tests.

            Todd

          8. DanH | Jan 23, 2005 05:46pm | #17

            If you're talking plain, standard density fiberglass batts, faced or unfaced, and plain blown cellulose, the specific manufacturer doesn't make much difference.And, of course, each side will bad-mouth the other side.But for most applications cellulose is the hands-down winner. It's less attractive to rodents than fiberglass, performs better in a fire, and, in most standard applications (especially retrofit situations), does a better job of insulating. In some extremely wet environments fiberglass might be a better choice, but generally it would have to be so wet that you'd already have other major moisture problems.When you get down to some special cases, such as high-density fiberglass or wet-sprayed cellulose, then manufacturer becomes a bit more important and it becomes harder to do an apples-to-apples comparison.

          9. reinvent | Jan 23, 2005 06:52pm | #18

            Dont remember were I read it, but Oak Ridge national labs did tests on FG vs cell. They constructed two identical rooms and put fg in the ceiling of one and cell in the other. They then tested the performance of each at differnt temps. The colder it got the better the cells performed,(the cold heavy air compressed the cells). The fg performed worse the colder it got,( it cant stop convective losses)

          10. Piffin | Jan 23, 2005 06:56pm | #19

            fluffed FG, FG batts, or BIBs FG??? 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          11. reinvent | Jan 23, 2005 08:01pm | #20

            Good question and I cant remember but... how much diff do you think there would be between the three?

          12. Piffin | Jan 23, 2005 09:09pm | #22

            Tremendous differences. Only a tiny bit more convection loss in BIBs than in denspak cells. Both have more loss in fluffed attic insulation, but FG batts are almost a waste of time to place due to the convection heat losses in deep cold or windy weather.
            so the comparison results you reported from mermory have little bearing wiothout knowing which and whether...apples and applesauce, oranges and orange juice - are not all the same comparisons 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          13. alwaysthinking | Jan 23, 2005 08:05pm | #21

            FG makers claim that cells settles.  I could imagine settling has very different implications for walls and ceilings. 

            I guess either cells or FG are probably better than nothing (what we currently have).

            Todd

      2. MikeSmith | Jan 22, 2005 11:35pm | #13

        todd.. i'd blow cellulose into the walls from the inside.. a top & bottom blow.. then patch the plaster... the cells will not blow the siding off the studs

        in the crawl.....

        lemme think about it some more.. sounds like you have the moisture / water thing under control

        Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

        Edited 1/22/2005 4:32 pm ET by Mike Smith

        1. MikeSmith | Jan 23, 2005 12:31am | #14

          todd.. the blower door & smoke candle tests are number 1

          as for the crawl... i hate fiberglass batts with kraft face... they usually install it upside down.. stapling the kraft to the joists.. it's meant to be kraft face to the heated side.. but fiberglass is just so bad for copnvection losses  and edge losses

          i'd probably nail up 1/4 " luan ply and blow it with cells

          or... your area is not very cold..

           i'd buy 2" EPS  and tack it up between the joists.. then gun foam the edges..

           whichever one costs less ( the cells vs the 2" eps ) is the one i'd do.. they are both labor intensiveMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

  3. davidmeiland | Jan 22, 2005 07:31pm | #11

    Lots of good suggestions from others already.

    We had a 1921 house in Oakland that I completely remodeled. A major insulation improvement I made was to remove old single-glazed double-hung windows and replace with Marvin casement. The weatherstripping is much superior and the glass makes a big difference. I also replaced one entry door (with a new IG unit) and rehung the second (original front door), both times weatherstripping well. If you are remodeling, think seriously about replacing windows. Based on the date of your place I assume you have aluminum, but if you have wood there are several options for replacing sash without tearing out the jambs.

    The other big improvement was to install radiant floor heating. A house heated to 66 by floors will feel a lot warmer than a house heated to 68 by forced air. You can also use hot water radiators if the floor isn't an option... or use a combination. I have never heard anyone rave about their forced air system, but RFH users almost always do. A good radiant contractor is Forbes Plumbing in Oakland.

    I used to get insulating done by a company called Enviro-Therm. IIRC they are based in Marin but should be easy to find. A guy named Dick Bryant was the estimator I dealt with, and possibly he owns the company.

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