Next summer, I will likely assist my uncle in building a small cottage in NH. As I have never done full house framing, I was going through the motions of framing it in my mind, trying to anticipate questions before they arise.
One thing I have always had a question about is bolting mudsills. Seems easy enough, but how are people getting the holes to align
I am going to have a 10″ thick wall with 1/2″ dia. bolts @ 4′-0″ o.c. embedded during the pour. I will be using 2 p.t. 2″ x 6 over sill seal for my mudsill.
I think the building code states something like the holes for the bolts are not to be more than 1/16″ dia. larger than the bolt. I also know that you are pretty lucky to get bolts nice and straight or at even intervals when you have them installed by the foundation contractor (not meant to be a jab at foundation guys, I know realisticly it’s almost impossible to get them perfect.)
So if I cant just measure on my sill and then drill the holes, how would I transfer the actual location of the bolts to the p.t.2×6. I know how I would go about it, but to spare myself the embarrassment I won’t even mention it. I was wondering what the technique was that pro’s use in the field.
Also, Although I have many books on house framing, giving me wealths of information about what a house frame consists of, I have yet to find a good book that actually gets into the techniques of house framing. Something that would answer questions like the one I have above would be what I am looking for. Any recommendations are apreciated.
Replies
Well, first of all I would use the steel straps that are embedded in the foundation wall that then nailed to the sides of the sill. I put the blue corrugated polyurethane foam insulation down first--it comes in roles and the material itself is about an eighth of an inch thick.
If you insist upon using bolts, embed them and then place the sill plate (generally pressure treated 2x8) where it will go and thunk it with a hammer where each bolt is located. Turn the plate over and drill your holes where the bolts dented the wood. Hardest part is walking the walls carrying the 2x8's.
Huh, so maybe the way I thought I would go about it was not so far off afterall.
Yeah, though it's a PITA if the bolts aren't all close to the same length.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Which begs the question, is there another way of doing it, if need be. I don't mean for this to sound funny, but if the situation called for it, is there a way of actually measuring the locations to transcribe them to the sill? I was reading an article in JLC about checking the foundation for square and then snapping chalklines to ensure that even if the foundation (they say stem walls. what the hell is a stem wall?) is not square, they can ensure a square frame from the sills up.
You always have to check the foundation for square, no matter what. Snap your lines square.Since you don't do this every day, laying the sill on top and then banging it down making an imprint of the top of the bolt isn't that accurate unless the bolt is plumb and you square up the edge of the sill to your chalk line.If you want to come close, all you have to do even if your bolt isn't plumb is lay the sill on edge up against the bolt and scribe both sides of the bolt and then use your square to scribe the BOTTOM part of the =scribed line where the bottom of the foundation bolt comes out of the top of the block. Now just measure from the chalk line and in to the center of the bolt. If your using two sills put one on top of another holding it in about 3' for a lap joint and drill threw both at the same time.Or you can order this Bolt Hole Marker from Bigfoot Saws. Once you get on just click on Bolt Hole Marker. This is the fastest way. You need no tape at all. Just hold the sill on the line and smack it with the hammer and it marks the center.http://www.bigfootsaws.com/Joe Carola
Wow... how's that for timing? I just missed ya.
That's exactly how we mark the sills most of the time. I have a BFT bolt hole marker but usually we just blow past it. It does make an appearance now and again though.
Ahhhhh, another cool tool. Your talking to a guy who has few tools at this point , but lately I've been buying things pretty regularly. I don't know what my problem has been but I'm like walking around with a saw in one hand and a hammer in the other looking for something-anything to build. I think I talked my Uncle into building this cottage just so I could do something. Just hope I can deliver.
I think I'll do alright...with a little help here and there. Thanks again
BigFoot tools sells a "Bolt Hole Marker" that works really well. Buy one and then sell it to me when you're done. :) Could always use a spare. Don't buy the "Stand Up Bolt Hole Marker" unless you're working on slabs. Just get the regular one. That's the one I need. Oops, I mean you need.
To be honest, I find the "hold and smash" way of marking the holes to be terribly inaccurate unless you're drilling an oversized hole. I'm sure some will disagree with me, but hey... it's just an opinion. A square parallel smooth running frame starts with those lines you strike on day one. If the sills don't land right on those lines like they're supposed to, you run the risk of making the rest of the framing job that much more difficult with compensation and compromising. Just my two cents.
Yeah, seeing as how I work in an architectural office drawing to 1/8" and 1/16" tolerances, the hold and smash method doesn't give me the warm and fuzzy feeling my brain requires. I need to measure dammit :)
Not to say that the hold and smash method can't work well for guys who have been doing this for a while. I just don't think that I have that level of finnesse. I'm reminded of a thread in which I think Blueeyedevil (or someone) was saying that they could cut a 9 pitch in a rafter by eye. I don't think I could do that either. Not even close. Nope I'd have a T-square and a friekin beam compass and a lazer level and a plumb bob and I'd probably still miss the mark ;)
I'll tell ya what, If I do frame this house, I think it'll come out ok, But it's gonna take a loooooooong time.
You can always do what Blue DOESN'T do and use a speed square. Takes a bit longer, but if this is a one time deal and you don't want to buy the BigFoot tool and then have to dicker with Dieselpig to sell it, just mark the locations with the sill tipped up as someone suggested, mark a line with the square, then measure over from the o/s edge of your stem wall (or string if you're having to square things up) to the bolt center.
Drill.
Sometimes the bolts get tipped a bit during the pour. If so, run a nut on the top of them and tap them straight with a hammer (tap the nutr, not the threaded part).
In many jurisdictions, like where I am, we're required to use the big square washers under the nut. I wouldn't get to anal on hole size...if you drill 3/4" for a 1/2" bolt, and use the big square washer (or even a round one, for that matter), that sill is not going to come off or shift appreciably.
You might want to have a thread die or chaser on site, though. Sometimes the threads on foundation bolts get beat up a bit if the concrete crew gets behand and has to "help" them in, or they're just poorly threaded from the factory (in Malaysia, or India or wherever).
The other reasonably straight-forward way to do it is to lay the sill on the foundation along-side the bolts, align the sill N inches over from its final position, then mark each bolt position on the sill N inches from its current position. This approach makes it a little easier to handle out-of-plumb bolts, etc, but is even more difficult when the sill is warped (which always seems to be the case).
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
but is even more difficult when the sill is warped (which always seems to be the case).
I think the biggest shock I'll have to experience is the fact that lumber is not straight. I'll be like wait, this stuff isn't straight at all, but it's striaght when I draw it :)
Of course I know it's not really straight, but I've doen a few small projects here and there lately, and the stuff I'm getting is really crap. I was pretty suprised. But thats a whole other discussion
that lumber is not straight
Therin lies the dilema!
I don't do many bolt jobs but when I did, I like to get the stuff straight when it's in it's final resting place. I've used Notchman's "smack the bolt straight" technique but never a speedsquare. I don't do enough of this type work to bother with a bolt layout tool, but I'd bet it would work great.
If I had to do a lot, I'd probably make a quick bolt template tool out of a piece of plywood.
In my apprentice perfectionist days, I'd do the measuring. Nowadays, I do the smack and drill routine and bore a slightly larger hole. Nothing in Michigan is going to blow away anyways and if a tornado hits, the entire house will disappear and the over bored sill plate will be smugly left all alone on the foundation.
The trick I do is to select straight "platos de habajols" (bottom plates). If they aren't straight enough, cut them in half. A 16' plate with a crown looks a lot straighter when it's cut into two 8's.
blue
After reading others, they are right about not being real accurate and the bolts have to be close to the same length. I guess you could stand the board on edge next to the bolts and mark with a pencil and then measure the distance from the edge to drill the holes.
Do you have good success with those straps? We've been thinking about switching to them, but I've heard that in the process of nailling them that the mudsill can move off the line. Is that true? Does it save a lot of time compared to bolts? I'm sick of bolts landing right on layout. It is really insane how no matter where we start layout, we land on bolts. Makes me think there is a force playing a joke on us :-)
To be honest, it's been about ten years since I was a framer. It seems like the mudsill moved a little when I nailed the straps, but I don't remember this becoming a problem. It seemed that even if they didn't move and you nailed them as tight as you could, it still seemed like there was some play in the sill. I guess the weight of the house and the sheathing below the sill sort of held it where it needed to be. And the staps didn't interfere with the joists, the way bolts can. The thing I remember was when straps were too long and sometimes got in the way (they were wicked if you got caught by a corner of one) so we'd bend them down and hammer them flat. I remember the first couple times I came across them, I folded them over the tops of the sills and nailed them there--then they really interfere with everything--especially the joist ribbon (rim joist) (but I don't remember changing the straps and nailing them to the sides).
"We've been thinking about switching to them, but I've heard that in the process of nailling them that the mudsill can move off the line. Is that true? Does it save a lot of time compared to bolts? "Tim,I’ve worked on some houses and additions with straps and the mudsills can't move when you nail them because I nail my sills down with my hilti gun into the foundation first on the chalkines. I even do that when there are bolts. I thought everyone nails the sills down first on the chalklines with or without straps. Also using straps saves a ton of time instead of drilling for the bolts no matter what system you have the straps are a thousand times faster. Or maybe 999 times faster......;-)Joe Carola
'nudder ting..
the irc says you can use 1/2" bolts @ 48" OC
or 5/8" bolts @ 72" OC..
still trying to get my foundation guy to start using 5/8...
and the straps are not going to pass some inspectors in a high wind area..
and...
in seismic and high wind areas... anything requiring a shear wall hold-down needs a special bolt with the code marked on the head..
see Simpson for detailsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Bolts, no bolts. Straps, no straps. Seismic this, seismic that. Shear this. Shear that. When are they going to make up their minds on what we're supposed to do........................Shear wall hold downs.....never seen one yet. Special bolt with a code mark, never seen one yet. We still do nothing for any seismic zone. We still frame our walls and nail the sheathing on and that's it. The only hardware that we use are joists hangers and hurricane ties.Until I get a set of plans with all this seismic zone stuff and all the coded hardware all you guys talk about. We just keep on going.The only thing I heard so far is that there starting to use some kind of hold downs towards the shore areas. Like I said, once the Architects start specking all this stuff out for the framers I will do exactly what they spec and get paid to do it.Joe Carola
Edited 12/18/2005 7:06 pm ET by Framer
joe... you build under the same code i do.. IRC..
in Rhode Island, there are 3 wind zones.. 100 mph, 110, & 120..
the 100 zone is probably the same as yours... not too much on the requirements..
the middle zone is the one i work in... pretty strict..
the 120 is southern RI & Block Island... the whole enchilada.. impact glazing , shear walls, shear panels, .. very difficult to comply with... absolutely everything stamped by an engineer
the middle zone.. mostly prescriptive... just follow the menu in the code.. occasionaly a building inspector will want to see a stamp and some calcs..
we use a lot of hardware.. but it's not too difficult to comply withMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I've asked Architects before about all this and why it's not specked on all the plans yet and they all say said it's not inforced yet, only down the shore areas started doing this.Do you have specs on every single piece of hardware for all this when you get plans?Joe Carola
in zone 3 ( 120 mph )... yes... pretty well spelled out ... and they vigorously check..
in our zone... as long as you don't push a window or door closer than 2' to a corner... it's pretty common sense..
found. bolts @ 4'... plywood ties from sill to stud..
plywood laps across the floor system tieing the 2d floor studs to the first floor studs..
h2.5 's on every rafter... straps across the ridge..
5/8 T&G roof sheathing... that's pretty much it.. unless the design is pushing the envelope... then you need a PE to do an uplift analysis
one of the toughest things are structures like screened porches.... they make you do some weird things with the plate system on those...usually interlocking LVL's
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"in our zone... as long as you don't push a window or door closer than 2' to a corner... it's pretty common sense.."You can't have a window or door closer than 2' from a corner.? Why? What's common sense? Don't understand that one.Joe Carola
once you move a window or door closer to a corner than 2" , you've destroyed the shear strength of the corner, so you have to get it engineered..
easiest solution is not to put a window or door within 2' of the corner..
the engineered solutions involve a lot of solid wood LVL's, and continuous path hold down hardware.. ugly, expensive , & not much room for insulation....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Joe,
I looked into using straps instead of J-bots. We checked it with our engineer and this is the strap he suggested http://strongtie.com/products/connectors/LMA-MASB-MAS-MAB-MA.html The MA6 He said it has higher values (he wasn't specific) than 1/2" J-bolts so that's what we will use from now on.
I don't have a cost on each MA6 yet, but I know that the 3"x3"x3/16" double dipped gavl washers we have to use here are $2 a piece, so the savings on that alone will be huge. We probably use 75-100 of those a house. Plus the time marking and drilling. Oh man I can't wait !!
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/122623371.jpg
Joe,
Thanks for the post. I'll find out if we can use those here. I never though of using the Hilti to fasten the mudsill first, then nail the straps. Thanks for the tip.
Yeah, Danno's technique (dent the wood) is the "preferred" method. Last mud sill I worked on, though, we couldn't do that, since the concrete was only about 8 hours old and bright green. So I used the tedious measurement method.
The inspector was just happy that there WERE bolts in the mud sill (and some of them even had nuts!), so no problem with the nitty details.
happy?
This may not be on your radar where you are building, BUT...
If you do anything with "Hold Downs", the smallest bold diameter they use is 5/8". Just something you may want to consider for wind or seismic reasons, if you have those concerns.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Not really any siesmic concerns in New Hampshire, but plenty of windy Noreasters and plenty of snow.
We build exlusively on crawl spaces and we have seismic issues to deal with (among the personal issues :-))
We have the Bigfoot bolt hole markers and they work really great except in our case we have 8" concrete stem walls and 2x6 mudsill. It takes 2 guys to hold the mudsill on that remaining 2 1/2" of concrete and use the bolt hole marker. I've tried everything I can think of and the fastest way we've come up with is this:
1) snap lines parallel and square, and ignore the concrete unless it's way off. It's usually very close in our case
2)Scatter as much mudsill as possible and lay it against the bolts
3)2 guys start at at the same corner and work opposite directions. 1 guy clockwise, 1 guy counter clockwise and start marking.
b) using a speedsquare, mark the center of all bolts, eyeing where they are in the concrete. If the bolt is leaning, bend it back with a 2 or 3' section of pipe. Don't use your hammer, because it'll mash the threading. Once a whole wall is marked, then measure off the line to the center of the bolt and put a mark there. Don't worry about cutting to length. Do that when the mudsill is down and the nuts are tightened
4) The guy drilling should do nothing but drill. He is the slowest guy because he is limited by the speed of the drill.
5) Once the guys who are marking get pretty close to each other, maybe a few peices apart, one of them should go back and start installing the mudsill
6) The remaining guy marking will finish marking the last couple of peices and then grab washers and nuts and put them on, but only start the nut
7) The guy installing the mudsill will then grab the impact gun and tighten down the nuts
8) The guy drilling will finish and clean out the crawl of scrap, cut the mudsll off at the corners and then he and the guy who was putting the washers and nuts on will start scattering beams.
Here are some pics of the process,although I don't have any specifically of what I described above.
The thing about this is that it goes really fast. It doesn't sound like it when you read it, but in reality it flies. Marking goes really fast and basically if you just set up the production line, and everyone uses that as the base, then if things get out of order its easy to leap frog each other and keep working.
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/122154249.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/122154259.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/122154263.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/122155792.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/122155676.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/122155683.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/122155690.jpg
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http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/122156016.jpg
Just a few more thoughts. The guy who wrote "Working Alone" has some good ideas on building from the foundation to the finish. I believe it's John Carrol. It's a Taunton book. He gets into some of the details that you'll no doubt need, even if you are working with your uncle.
Also there were a couple of FWW articles back in '98 or '99 by Mike Guertin and Rick Arnold, that went into some specifics on getting started once the foundation is poured. As I recall it was good information on getting the thing off the ground level and square, including a home made tool for marking the foundation bolts.
Lastly, I've seen guys make 2x4 cleats that span the width of the concrete form with a hole drilled for the bolt exactly where its needed width-wise. The bolt is held to the cleat with a nut and washer on the top and bottom ( which in theory, if the tops of the forms are level, should hold the bolt plumb) at the exact exposure needed. The cleats are installed at the pour at whatever spacing the plans call for. You pretty much would have to be present at the pour for this.
It depends on how anal you want to be. As said previously, you can just whack the sill to mark the blots.
I'm back to edit this. Sorry, I mistakenly typed FWW and of course I meant FHB, and it is issue #97 which was back in Sept '95.
Edited 12/18/2005 9:58 pm ET by fingers
I work in the Bay Area in CA, and what we run into is 5/8" anchors every 4'. The way the crew I work on does it is by snapping chalk lines, then setting the sill alongside the chalk line. We don't trust the concrete guys enough to make square stem walls, so our chalk line is square. From there, we are able to take our squares on the mudsill to get location, and measure from the chalkline to get the center. If more than 1 person is pulling layout for the holddowns on a wall, make sure they pull from the same edge of the board, otherwise you will get very frustrated, very quickly.
Young, poor, and eager to learn
I would second ( or third or whatever) the bolt hole marker. Larry Haun's book , "The Very Efficient Carpenter" covers a lot of basic layout and framing.