Minor snafu coordinating framer with excavator…I’m the HO/GC.
All of you who think a HO doesn’t have any business being a GC can stop reading now :<)
But those of you willing to part with some advice or any other HO/GC hopeful looking for education or to learn from others’ mistakes, please respond and/or follow.
Framer will be doing pressure treated wood foundation…one of his specialties…and instructed me to tell the excavator, who has dug lots of basements and drainfields (including mine) but never for a wood foundation and also knows but has never worked directly with this framer before, to put the bottom of the trench 4’0″ below point x of the exisiting building. This is a crawl space foundation for an addition to the building. Footing itself is 8+” of pea rock. This is exactly what I told excavator.
I go out there yesterday and excavator was finishing up placing the footing rock so the top surface of the rock is 4’0″ below point x. When I pointed out the discrepancy to him, he said, “Well, the top of the rock IS the bottom of the trench to a carpenter”
Maybe I should have told him “DIG TO… 4’0″ below point X.”
They both had sets of professionally drawn plans that did NOT have real specific detail on this dimension.
Turns out it’s no biggie, but it does raise some questions to me, the answers to which I think will be generally helpful to me as I continue as well as to other folks doing this:
Is there a basic difference in terms between foundation guys and carpenters for this sort of thing?
Should the plans have laid out this detail?
Should I, as GC, have gotten the framer and excavator face to face out there at the same time to get them on the same tracK? Especially if excavator had never dug for a PTW before? They did discuss this dimension on thier phones, but not in person.
Should I make sure that the framer is out there supervising the backfill? The backfill detail is one of the more important aspects of successful PTW foundation systems. Should I be there during backfill?
Should I have tried to contract a different excavator that the framer recommended instead of going with the guy I already knew and trusted?
Thanks
Replies
Whether you should be out there putting in more stone backfill should be answered by the framer.
It's a relatively minor error, not to beat yourself up over. Just do what needs done and on with things.
I would not leave a sub with soimething that critical though without at least a sketch in his hand detailing it. The older I get, the more I see how hard verbal instructions are to follow.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin makes a vital point in communication. Always give written orders. Have the sub sign off on all changes keep a copy and insist they keep there copies. Expect change orders to move your cost. Ask and have given in writing the cost of such change orders.
Even an experienced GC leans on the expertise of others at times. In situations where I'm not as knowledgeable about a process I'll have a meeting with the involved parties and discuss the task until were all in agreement.
But the key is document, document,document! oh! and take lots of progress photo's, especially of things later hidden that might come back and bite your butt like foundations.
The older I get, the more I see how hard verbal instructions are to follow.
Me too.
Verbal instructions (oral or written) have to be carefully expressed AND carefully listened to or read to do any good.
_______________________
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
I'm sure it's the listening part
;)
I always express myself clearly so nobody can possibly misunderstand, don't you?
LOL.
Excellence is its own reward!
I always express myself clearly so nobody can possibly misunderstand, don't you? LOL
And to think that people complain about that over in the tavern (I'm of the "clearly and loudly school, myself {VBB} )
_______________________
Why Don't Blind People Like To Sky Dive?
Because it scares the bejabbers out of the dog
Your mileage may vary ....
if its my buck of course i would be there mason and excavator have to see eye to eye it makes it smooth and fun at the same time and we get paid for this stuff cant wait for sun up
AVO : Avoid Verbal Orders . Get everything in writing ,Give every thing in writing . Well you can talk to the subs , but put it on paper also.
johnnyd, The only way I could keep any grade questions straight along with my sanity was to set a reference point that all grade dimensions were taken off of. A stake in the ground is ok but prone to getting bashed, pulled or moved. On an addition the simplest place is an accessible corner. I do take it to the extreme. For example in a kitchen remodel I'll have visible reference points on the wall for counter / cab heights, lines and dimensions on the floor for cab/appliance layout. Saves time being there constantly during rough in. Different people look at prints differently, no matter how good or conscientious they are. You as the GC are the conductor of this orchestra. Good luck on your project.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Here's a funny one;
Almost every waste water plan I've ver gotten, the soils engineer ran his elevation marks from a nail in a tree identified on plan.
I just got one back where he did his elevations from the sill cock on a near corner of the building.
Problem is, the building has abad foundation with exterior walls sinking from 2" to 8". So we're going to jack it up and move it over while we build a foundation under it, then move it back and set it straight. Wanna bet that sillcock is the same when we're done?
Good example of communication and co-ordination, eh?.
Excellence is its own reward!
I just went through the whole excavator and foundation guy thing. And I could totally see something getting missed so I did indeed get them both together on site to talk about what each of them expected from the other and from me. Turned out then that the interface between the excavating and foundation was perfect. The hole was just right for the foundation guys and the foundation was done properly for the excavator to back fill.
But..... things still get a little fuzzy. I know how it is. On a project of this size, there are so many details that some inevitably get missed or intentionally set aside. At some point though, they all need attention. With mine, it's the stone. Just never really ironed out the details on who would do the stone in the basement and garage. Turns out not to be a big deal at all (and that's why I let it slide) but, I can easily see how something critical and get missed.
One last example..... the foundation guys are at the site and the forms are all up and ready to go (poured concrete wall foundation). Concrete trucks waiting at the street. I'm talking with someone about a little wing wall and I say something about how it will only get filled 3/4 up. Another guy turns to me and says, "nope all the way up". I say " nope, only 4' tall". He says "nope 7' tall".
And of course it's on my print and very clearly marked. Things just get frazzled.
Pay very close attention to the big details that can cost a lot of money if they are wrong. The decision on gutters...... that can wait (you know what I mean).
Rob Kress
johnnyd, for me, I want to be on the job, whenever a backhoe, or bulldozer etc, is also on the job. Period. I feel this is rather important, you know, I've got a backhoe, at $75.00 per hour, that, can either do a lot of good, or a lot of bad, in a short amount of time. Even when I'am on the job, communicating my needs can be, well challenging. One other note, I actually look rather good leaning on a shovel. Last one, If you can, I would reccommend strongly, being on your job, anytime, another sub is there, as I tell myself, "Hey, it's my job to to this deal, for this is what I raised my hand for" Best of luck Jim J
You know, it's strange, but I should KNOW this stuff, as I've been involved with small to large software deployment projects involving developers, support teams, IT departments, consultants, business partners, etc with 100s of companies over the last 10 years. Chance for mis-communication and need for detailed documentation just as, if not more necessary, in this biz as in construction projects.
Maybe the thing HO/GCs can take away from this thread is: you can't approach a major addition or new house project casually, as if it is just your hobby, even though it IS also your hobby. You need to apply the SAME professional technique as you have applied to your day job...the one that made you successful enough to afford doing this in the first place.
Thanks for your input and support. Turns out the crawl space elevation will work out without adding more rock...but get this: On the BASEMENT part of the excavation, same type verbal instructions were given....8' 9 1/2" from bottom of existing joists to the bottom of the trench. Got that right, but excavator measured from bottom of a BEAM supporting the existing joists, so turned out he was 6" TOO DEEP. Already had pea rock in place...on this one, since the detail WAS in the plan, he admitted his mistake and brought in more rock. A joist is a joist and a beam is a beam. And my slab will be on 15" of rock.
Again though, per your comments, this mistake would have been avoided with better detail on the plan, pre-dig face-to-face meeting with all three parties, agreed on reference mark, and my presence on the site during the dig. I like that comment: "I look pretty good leaning on a shovel".
Finally rained here, good for lawns, but now I've got some hand work to do straightening out a water line "re-direct" (this one's ALL my fault) in one of the trenches. Gonna be muddy.
I'm gonna put that comment in my repitoire` too.
So we now know that a carpenter doesn't know what a trench ios and an excavator can't be expected to know what is the diff between a beam and a joist. LOL
That's what GCs are for - translators.
Now I got it.
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
johnny.. i'm with 44 on this.. i'm on the job from first clearing until the concrete is out of the ground..
from there on, there is no mistake that can't be corrected.. but sitework and concrete work requires hands-on supervision....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Pretty simple.
As a HO and not a builder you should most definatly should have had your archy make detailed pics and specs. Why didn't you?????? $$$$$
Foundations are a pretty serious part of building.
While my foundation was dug and formed and poured this week,I was here for the whole thing.
If it were for a customer I'd have done the same thing.Been there.
Kind of hard to redo concrete.....gravel may be another story. a whole lot easier to correct.
If it were for a customer imagine what they may have said to you.or sued you.
Being a HO/contracter= at least a vital detailed set of plans and you beingthere to be sure all is proper.
Be well
andy
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