I just received a statement for a completed stair and railing job. Here is a picture that shows problems with the box newels. What should I expect the craftsman to do in properly correcting this problem?
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The box newels are fitted over a solid 4 X 4 post of some unknown species that appeared to be preservative treated. The box material is of red oak local origin. The mitered corners were perfect and very nicely finished but opened up on all corners shortly after installation.
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I suspect the solid post interiors were of heavy moisture content and the moisture migrated into the outer box newel, causing the miters to open.
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The craftsman applied filler (not shown) to the miters and it looks terrible.
Replies
i think you should fire your photographer
I addressed the issue to finish carpenters, not to criticizing photographers. The picture clearly shows the opening of the mitered corner and the photo has been cropped and sized so that it quickly loads on slow ip packages, servers, and computers. I am trying to be considerate in regards to picture sizing. Any finish carpenter certainly can see the issue and address it.
The picture is far from clear. You don't need a bigger picture, you need a close-up shot of the area in question. Your description makes it sound like a mitered corner has opened up along the length of the post. Not sure if its caused by shrinkage, or warping. I think you should remove the red oak trim, dry the posts (check moisture content to be sure), and apply new kiln-dried trim. I do not think the original installer should be liable. Biscuit joinery, glue and clamps may be in order, just to insure it doesn't happen again.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
As per input from McDesign in the next post, the gap is wider at the outside and tight on the inside. If the installer used pressure treated 4 X 4 posts which were stored on racks outside in a lumber yard you don't think the installer should be liable?
Miters open up is for two reasons.
One, the board is cupping away from the internal post - like from moisture (from the internal post) expanding that side.
Or, the board was installed "wet" compared to the new environment, and as it dried, the outer surface shrank proportionally more than the inner surface, simply because it's longer - say 6" vs 4-1/2". If shrinkage is 0.020"/inch, then the outer surface would shrink .030" (6 - 4-1/2" X .020"). Given two boards meeting at a corner, that would be almost 1/16" gap - which I can see in the pix.
So, a moisture meter seems in order.
Forrest
Thank you Forrest,
Pretty much what I figure too. The installer took the caps off with the thought that the posts would dry out and the miters would close back, however he was impatient and plugged the gaps with putty one week later, and in the process scuffed up the finish on the box newel.
Aside from checking with a moisture meter, do you have a solution on how to actually correct the problem?
I feel that the installer should be well aware of moisture problems and should use wood that has been kiln dried and or matches closely the woods that are in the installed environment. I do not know the method that was used in joining the miters.
I feel the mitered newel boxes should be removed and replaced because they do not look good at this point with the patch job.
You're asking for specific advice, but here's some more general advice. Don't be rude.
Mike is well capable of giving you good infomation, and is kind enough to share it freely.
But it is a bad picture, and there's nothing wrong with a little levity before getting down to work.Amateurs talk strategy, Generals talk logistics.
virgin..... hard tellin, not knowin.. could be the moisture of the inner post... could be the moisture of the LOCAL red oakcould be the RH of the house itselfsounds like he got it right to begin with
red oak loves to move and shrink and swell perhaps the posts would have been better made of solid or glued up stockMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Was there a spec, or drawing as to how the newels were to be constructed? I find that there usually isn't, unless it's a complicated profile with flutes or whatnot. If the finish carpenter used pt 4x4's for posts on his own, then I would tend to pin it on him, as I wouldn't consider that a good practice. Syp pt is notorious for being wet at the yard, and tends to twist a lot when it dries.....kd Doug Fir isn't hard to come by, and imo would be a better choice.
If he was told to use it by gc, or whomever the powers that be, I'd say you own it.....I'd remove the trim around, let it dry for a significant amount of time, and re-wrap, assuming that the posts stay fairly true...
And Mike's right, the pic could be from 2' away and would show a much better view of the problem at hand. The pix that are posted show me and my old eyes a rail with a dark line at the seam:)
Bing
Thank you Bing 187, I had a friend take the picture as I am far away from the project at this time.
Thank you Mike for the input.
I don't see anything.
are you the gc ?
are you the architect ?
who designed this assembly ?
it sounds like the carpenter did his part to the letter and then circumstances beyond his control ruined the work
do you know what the moisture content was ?
who did the rough posts ?
how is the RH in the house being controlled?
In a past life I put in probably hundreds of Red Oak Box Newels.
Never had one open up. In fact, the only time I've ever had Red Oak open up is when moisture was introduced.
two questions.
1. Who made the posts? A local millwork shop or are the from a stair companies catalog?
2. Who decided to put the 4X4's inside them?
I've never had one from a stair parts catalog open up.
On the other hand, if they were locally made? you really have no idea or control over moisture content. But I seriously doubt that it was the newel.
Betting more on the posts inside.
box Newels on a balcony run can be a pain in a$$ but there are a few ways to anchor them without the 4X4's.
Looks to me like a whole bunch of people are going to be sharing the cost of rebuilding that railing.
On a side note,
For Red Oak I used Zar, Red Oak latex wood filler. It stains almost perfectly. But only for small blemishes. No amount of filler is gonna fix that.
Edited 10/16/2008 7:02 pm ET by robert
There is a possibility that the 4X4 posts twisted and warped and blew the box newels apart.
Personally I can see the closet post has a open miter,
I am wondering if the miters were completely glued top to bottom and all the way out to the point of the miter. If the inside or heel of the miter is tight & the point is open I would question the proper glue job.
Just my 2cents
Paul
No one should regard themselve as "God's gift to man." But rather a mere man whos gifts are from God.
Thank you,
I will add your input into my research on why this happened. The person that did the job has promised to correct it "properly".
Sorry for late response. Hurricane Omar disrupted my communications.
Virginbuild
If the posts were PT, I put my money with reinvent and post #16.
Yup, they are going back to the drawing board and "reinvent" the job.
Like most I need more facts that a better picture might provide. As far as miters opening up it's one of the reasons I use a lock joint.
are we sure these are PT posts?
if so ... why PT.
who made that decision.
who installed the PT posts.
did the trim carp install the posts then wrap?
or did the trim carp come in and wrap what was there?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
All done by same person. I can't figure out why moisture wasn't checked and why the incompatibility wasn't considered. Anyway he is going to "correct" it, so he says.
The list of things that could effect the joints is very long. . . among them is wet PT lumber for the posts as other have mentioned.Other things to consider are:The use of straight grain RO as opposed to the flat sawn RO you used.Was the house closed to the weather and conditioned.Did you do any flatwork (concrete) in the basement as this puts tons of moisture into the house.Was the house being taped while this was going on as "mud" is another large source of moisture.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/
Edited 10/19/2008 10:51 am ET by Joe
As you're probably aware, another big source of moisture in a house under construction is from propane torpedo heaters.
Although, since this a pretty recent job, and the summer is just over, thats most likely not the case here.
Thank you for the input Joe,
Hurricane Omar put me out of communications for a bit.
House has been framed in for 10 years and the last of the mudding was done in January this year. Heat has been maintained all last winter to present at 55 F. Humidity holding at 40 to 45 % which is ideal for north country. No salamanders, just central hot air.
Your observation of using flat sawn does add to shrinkage factor. I think all the issues have now been address, thanks to all of you that have contributed. Now back to the "drawing board"
Regards to one and all.
Virginbuild
VB,Good luck with whatever course of action you take. Post back and let us know how it turns out.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/