So I have a balustrade with 4 box newels, that I will build, that I need to plan and prepare b4 sheetrock starts soon.
Meaning… the floor framing is exposed below, subfloor above, and I can fasten whatever I want, however I want for the newels.
I’ve done some back reading here and see that a common method is to build ‘stubs’ of glued and screwed 2×4’s ripped @ 3″x3″ (to match the inside of the newel) that the newels will slip over. This makes sense.
So, then, you would plumb, then lag or bolt or otherwise glue and screw these to framing below and leave them protrude how far above the finish floor?
Then above do you ‘floor’ up to the stubs, slip the newel over to hide the flooring cuts?
Then should the stub fit tightly or with some fudge so you can plumb the post? Like glue it liberally, fudge it perfectly plumb, then finish nail it?
And what’s the best method for gluing up the mitered boxes? I saw a deal where the guy laid them out first on strips of packaging tape andthen folded all four sides up into the box with the tape holding things tight. Might be good for a guy without a lot of clamps? Then use brads or pins to lock it together?
School me.
Thanks!
Replies
In view of the fact that unemployment is rising high, especially in the housing trades, I'd much rather see you hire a finisher carpenter to build and install these newel posts rather than trying to "school" you.
Everybody wants to save a buck, so everyone figures the easiest way to do that is to become their own contractor and skimp on paying for a finish carpenter. You guys all want our knowledge, but you don't want to pay for it.
You mentioned balustrades...The style of newel post you should use depends somewhat on the type of balusters you intend to install, along with the railing style as well.
Yes, you can rip long miters on a table saw and glue and tape to form a box. Miters will probably open up. Or you could spline them....Or you could build newel posts using pocket screw joinery or biscuits.
You can anchor a newel to the floor by cutting the bottom of the newel in a stepped fashion whereby part is situate on a stair tread and part is against the stair stringer. Or you could lag bolt into the stringer and hide the bolt with moulding...Or you could cut out an opening in the floor and attach to joists below.
Do you shim if need be? Perhaps, or instead you cut the bottom so it sits plumb.
Do I have time to "school" you? No I don't. Cause there are many different styles of newel posts, along with installation methods.
Get a copy of FHB's Jan.2006 issue...No.176. It will give you some insight.
Davo
WOW So what do you come around here for. That type of attitude is better suited for JLC. I come here to share what I can and learn what I don't. I clicked on this thread hoping to find a couple of good ideas not a self righteous speech. Get a life, if this is so demeaning to you why even type a response.
Wow,
That is the most pessimistic, negative and rude response I have ever rec'd here.
Thanks a lot.
"Everybody wants to save a buck, so everyone figures the easiest way to do that is to become their own contractor and skimp on paying for a finish carpenter. You guys all want our knowledge, but you don't want to pay for it."
For your information, my client is paying me very well for my attention detail, quality work and reputation--which got me her job in the first place. That I have not built box newels before has little to do with whether or not I should.
Do a little background check before you go off people for asking perfectly reasonable questions about their work.
Pat
"Do a little background check before going off people for asking perfectly reasonable questions about their work."
Point taken.
"For your information, my client is paying me very well for my attention to detail, quality work, and reputation..."
In that case, why don't you hire a stair sub who will do a first rate job and will also show you his tricks so next time when you bid a similar job, you'll actually know how to do it?
Bottom line........I was "out of line."
I guess this economic crunch is starting to get to me. Been laid off a couple of months now and no end in sight. Your words "school me" just somehow pissed me off. Sorry.
That October/Nov. article as someone mentioned is actually FHB No. 134. The article is on page 108 by Lon Schleining. It is a very good article. The article I earlier passed on to you...FHB No. 176 is by Gary Striegler...it too is very good. In the back pages of that same mag, are some photos of other constructed newels too.
If your box newels are to be painted, then you should look hard at using Gary's fabrication techniques....there are no messy miters to worry about. Even if you intend to build stain grade, Gary's miterless technique is still worth considering.
If you plan on mitering, then routing a lock miter is probably your best bet, followed by using splines second. I personally have never used the lock miter technique...I've used splines with great success. A simple mitered joint will more than likely open up. I personally would not go that route.
Mounting a newel so that it is stepped, or recessed into the bottom stair tread is IMHO the way to go for the strongest connection.
As someone mentioned, just nailing off to bottom cleats will work but over the long haul will work loose. IMHO it's much better (when given the chance) to connect the post down thru the floor and tied into the floor joists. Lon Schleining shows one method for anchoring below. Also mentioned was rebar with welded cariage bolts on the ends , but using 1/2inch all thread is easier if you don't weld.
If I was going with a wooden floor block anchoring system, my newel post set-up would be recessed onto the bottom tread...with a block screwed down on the tread, as well as the blocks on the floor. I also would opt to lag bolt the outside leg into the stair stringer. This would be covered with base moulding.
If anchoring below to floor joists, Lon gives a detail as to how to bolt uising an extended home-made tool. Although this works, I instead usually cut an access hole big enough to get a ratchet tool into position. Again, base moulding will hide the access.
As to shimming...do whatever you have to in order to keep the post plumb. As for blocking tolerances...you don't want loose tolerances...1/16th less than the inside dimension is big enough. If you start out loose, your newel post will loosen up more easily than if you started out tight.
Hope this helps. But in all honesty, a stair pro would only make the job run more smoothly if you have concerns....spread the wealth around.
Davo
Not that it means much, but I think your reply shows quite a bit of class. It happens.
Brad
Thank you for the input and sorry to hear you're laid off. I figured that might have something to do with it, but???
This job is so small, and I'm eager to trim out the stairs myself--don't really have concerns, just looking for the very best way to do it--then go. Along with that--in these times--I'll gladly keep that part of the job to myself. I enjoy trim work.
Thanks again for your input.
Davo
Good reply.
We need more men like you at BT.
Rich
Pat,
There is an article on this in FHB #134 Oct/Nov 2000 that has much of what you are looking for...taping up a mitered newel box and building a bolt platform (sides and a top) with which you secure everything. In this case it's glued inside the newel, you drive hanger bolts into the framing and have slightly outsized holes in the top of the bolt platform for room to plumb. Slip it over, toss on some nuts and tighten. Looks from the photo that it's about 2" in height or so.
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/articles/building-a-custom-box-newel.aspx?ac=ts&ra=fp
Best,
Steve
'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
Edited 1/28/2009 8:39 pm ET by FatRoman
Thanks,
I'll read that article.
Pat
I wouldnt use a good ol 2x4 as my connection post for fear of the moisture content and what will happen when it shrinks. Baltic Birch may be a better option. To connect mine I am installing plywood strips that extend into and below the base of the Box about 16"+- and notch to the framing below. I plan to leave a small gap between the strips at the middle install a wedge between when I glue them to ensure that I get a good bond. Once the box is dropped into sub-floor hole I can shim the blocks as required to plumb the box newel and attach with lags.
I dont like the idea of much of a fudge factor. Unless you are ok with using some screws somewhere, you could end up with a flexible connection since gluing without reasonable clamp pressure will not yield a very strong connection.
To connect the box newels at the corners I used a lock miter shaper cutter, but in the Tauton stair building book they show many using only biscuits. For glueup, I made up four L shaped brackets out of 1" strips of melamine that ran the full length of the box newels and clamped them up with about eight clamps (four each direction). The bracket was important to get crisp edges. I kept them clamped for a few hours and put in the next.
good luck
Brad
The stub method is clever... much like a deck post though. If they have kids it will eventually loosen up, and the wood framing will expand and contract causing play as well.
My favorite method I found when I was rebuilding a staircase in old Toronto, (Late 1800's Rosedale), You mount a big block of hardwood between the joists. You take a piece of re-bar and weld 2 carriage bolts to them just a little longer than you need.
You then have to nest in a block to the newel post and leave enough space for the nut to turn onto the block and not be proud of where your design needs.
If you are really clever you can figure out how to pressure fit, or silicone fit the top block for easy removal and come back the next winter to snug things up. The client will love the attention, and you may just get another job in the back yard or something.
We call this compression hardware and we use it for bigger jobs as well.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Not to hijack the thread but the installations referenced here are for box newel to wood framed floor, what do you do for a stair that is landing on a concrete slab? I was thinking of using some angle brackets anchored to the concrete and then use moulding to cover the brackets.
I would probably epoxy a bolt into the concrete going up the center of the post and use a standard ... what do they call the bolt/nut combo on a newell post anchor? You install the nut via a horizontal hole in the post. Theres a name for it ... someone will jump in and remind us.
You mean a "Newel bolt"?I like the C-3008 by Coffman. They call it a "newel fastening system".
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
My 2 cents ... very limited experience, but studied it a lot since I built 5 stair runs in my own house ... no two alike.
I'd do like 4x4's anchored to the joists below and to the stringer. Bring them up high ... your box newel trim may not be adequate to fix a structural railing to ... Don't assume it is able to provide that strength (IMO). That is why you are attaching the post to the floor joists ... because of the stress/structure of the railing. I'd assume the box newel to be decorative only.
I agree. Why not stub up like 2'?
Because 2 ft doesn't get you to the handrail ... then you rely on the newell post structurally to hold the handrail and it MAY NOT be designed for that. If you have the newell post as high as the handrail and attach the box newell to the newell near the handrail and the hand rail to the box newell, the box newell will hold it. At least that is what I was thinking. Having a newell 2 ft above the floor/step and then rely on making a structural connection handrail to newell and newell to post may be a stretch. Personally, I wouldn't trust a newell box like we often see to be capable over a long period of time to support the stress of a handrail. Personal opinion ... don't know if someone else would have another point of view or better experience.
I guess the old newell post boxes were often strucutural in themselves and had no additional post. Certainly not out of MDF or the likes. Point being, don't just approach it in a casual manner ... structurally. Make sure you think about it. 4x4 2 ft into a box in an of itself doesn't even come close to guarantee a structural connection ... IMO.