I literally hit the wall this weekend over something embarassingly trivial. All I’m trying to do is screw some interior handrail brackets into our stairway wall, but I haven’t made it past the first one.
Ok, rock lath walls, 45 year old stick frame house so I’m imagining pine studs, possibly in need of an exorcism. I’m using 2″ brass screws, no the ones that came with the railing bracket – because those are too short. I’ve had 3 brass screws break halfway into their pilot holes. #10 screws, 1/8″ pilot holes.
What’s going on here? Is there some other gold colored screw I should be using? Should I get a priest over here?
Also there are now 6 holes (3 rows of 2) pilot holes (some filled with brass) in 3 vertical inches of a stud – at what point does this stud get compromised?
Edited 4/30/2006 9:03 am ET by BobS
Replies
The stud probably isn't even close to compromised. You might try getting a larger, tapered pilot drill such as those made for Fuller countersinks. Make sure any section of the hole where the unthreaded shank goes is completely drilled out... 1/8" isn't big enough for that, and that's probably why you are breaking screws.
David, thanks for the quick reply. Those taper bits are pretty slick, if not offensively expensive. I'm not sure I get how they work since I thought drill bits only cut on the tip not along the edge. These must work a bit differently.But, the screws are breaking before the shank part hits the wood. I don't think the shank can really even get to the wood since the plaster+rocklath is about 1" think ~ shank length. The break is always in the threaded part of the screw.And thanks for the input on the stud's integrity.
Edited 4/30/2006 9:14 am ET by BobS
If the wood is well dried and shrunk it can be quite hard. Brass is a fairly weak material for screws, as well.
I would drill appropriately stepped pilot holes -- one diameter for the threaded portion and a larger diameter for the unthreaded portion of the shank. Then get a few steel screws exactly the same shape and size as the brass ones. Into each hole screw in the steel one just a bit, perhaps 1/16 inch, deeper than the brass one will end up. You'll leave the bracket off for this. Then back out the steel screw and screw in the brass, using a rub of bar soap to lubricate the threads.
You could also use brass plated steel screws.
Yeah, if the home is 45 years old and in a conventional urban development then likely they're plain pine studs. In an older home, or a more rural one where some wood may have been recycled you could run into anything, even oak. My parents' old place (built ca 1910, with some recycled lumber) had some oak studs (and every other wood imaginable), and for those you had to drill pilot holes for nails. Even without oddball species you can still hit some pretty hard studs when they're 45 years old.
You really should try to find some good quality brass plated steel screws -- solid brass is borderline strength for a handlrail. At the very least, drill a stepped/tapered hole of sufficient size and use some lube on the screws. Pre-work the hole with a steel screw of similar threading.
Brass screws are extremely brittle - even worse than Piffin screws! - so I hate to use them for anything structural.
Switch to bronze screws or to brass plated steel screws.
it has little to do wiuth age of the stud or the plaster material. New work breaks brasss screws too.
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I'd believe its the stud, but wouldn't rule out a wire shield. Try another spot at random on the same stud.
I was required by an inspector once in the '80's to use fir framing in a house. Before the blueboard installation, I needed to remove a couple of distorted studs & was amazed at how hard they were. Later in the job I came across a couple of the same problems you have. I have also come across the same thing where a house was framed in chestnut more than a hundred years ago.
The simplist thing could be a knot at the precise spot you are drilling. Brass is pretty soft
I can't believe no one here hit with the answer to the problem.First, Use a stud finder magnetic to make sure you are not hitting metal in the wall, nails pipes, conduit, etc.Second make sure you are using the correct pilot screw hole size. Ask if you don't know how to assure this. Third Put wax, not soap on your screws threads. Fianlly fourth If the above does not work, use a steel wood screw of the same size, run it all the way in (with wax) and then remove it and replace with the brass screw now that you have cut the threads through the hard wood.
OK, since you have the authoritative answers, go thru the entire forum, answer all the posts and solve all the problems, and everyone else can take the rest of the year off.
When putting brass screws in I always put a steel screw of the same size in first and then wax the brass screw before I put it in.
What gb said!
I always run a steel screw in first then the brass one, plus a little wax.
I dont care for solid brass screws, to soft.
Doug
Thanks for all the tips, everyone. I've decided to forgo using solid brass since it seems to need to be babied to get in the wall and as many have said and I have come to see, they are pretty weak.I found some Hillman outdoor wood screws for ACQ that are bronze colored, ceramic coated (steel I imagine) that almost match the antiqued brass bracket my wife had originally wanted so I may try those. I imagine they should be strong enough.I went to 3 hardware stores and couldn't find straightup bronze or brass plated steel. I might try HD tonight just to see, but I don't know where to find these things.My wife was ready to use steel screws and nailpolish when she saw my frustration.
It really sounds like your pilot hole diameter is too small. I use dial calipers to measure the shank remaining below the threads, then drill a 10 to 20 thousandths larger diameter hole.
Or else you have some really shotty HD chinese screws.
I just hold the drill bit and screw up to the light, at what passes for an arm's length with my vision. For soft wood (which apparently this isn't) I'll put the drill shaft in front of the screw and pick a drill size where I can barely see the base of the threads on both sidex. For hardwood I center the drill shaft behind the screw and pick a drill size where I can see the drill shaft about half the way from thread base to thread peak (more or less, depending on how hard the wood).For a stepped hole, a similar technique can be used to size the drill for the screw shank.
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> Or else you have some really shotty HD chinese screws.
That would be my first guess. It's a good thing I've been saving old brass screws, from before the flood of bad metalurgy.
For the OP, the steel screw first trick works, but you have to also know the trick for getting the brass screw into the same grooves. Push it in gently, just with your fingers, and turn it counterclockwise until you feel it click in. Then start it clockwise. And, of course, both screws have to be the same size.
-- J.S.
Always use a steel screw first,same size as the brass screw. This forms the threads without breaking screw. Remove the steel screw,use a lubricant ,not soap, use wax.The brass screws will go in without breaking.
mike
The reason for not using soap is that the alkalinity can corrode brass. I don't know if it actually does, but it can.
ron
I searched high and low at one point, looking for brass plated steel screws (in the smaller sizes) and I couldn't find a thing, so you are not the only one.Besides being dry, you can get the sap 'curing' in old studs. Petrified is how I would describe it.