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They may think they are an exclusive clique, but just clique your mouse and you can’t be excluded. Internetus democraticus maximus.
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Hey Rusty, they let me post in here, and I'm a washed up drunken communist leader!
*
Hey Yeltsy,
How's the liver?
Ed. Williams
*Excellent work, Patrick...
*
I am not a professional builder, but as someone who is about to contract my own new home, I have found your ideas and insights tremendously helpful. But sometimes, I feel that some of you resent folks like me coming on this board, because we're not "professionals."
What prompted this post was a comment in the "This Old House" thread. Someone said, "It has become a very elite little clique." From the TOH thread it is obvious that many of you are well know and respected on this board, and that's good. I just hope you remember that people come here looking for answers because they believe you can help them, whatever their experience level.
*Rusty-I am a newbie to this board, and can understand what you mean. BUTTT, This place is no different than a job site. Or better yet no different than what you would find at an oldworld guild house. Construction guys/gals laugh, yell, cuss, stick there feet in there own and their coworkers mouths. We are a species of our own. We love to know best. We love to learn more so that next time we will do the job better and also know best. We are elite. In the same way that computer specialists are elite. Or that chefs are elite, or real estate brokers, or candlestick makers. One thing though, tradesman love to tell you how to do it better. I have found in the few times that I have posted here a real response to my question, and sometimes humor, sometimes chastisement, sometimes disinterest. I have not encountered resentment. It is an elite little clique, but one that will respond to your questions eagerly. You go walk onto any jobsite in full swing, a complete stranger, and you might notice a little bit of a slow response to your inquiries. If I were to walk into the kitchen at the Marriot, I would not expect to be taken aboard as a long lost nephew. I would expect to be treated with respect and at the very least have my question answered. But I could never become a memeber of their group because I am a mason, not a cook. Anyway, I for one welcome your questions, and encourage you to think of this place as a room full of contractors, architects, homeowners, and whatever. And remember that some of these people are just visiting, and some of them live here.Wishing you the best of luck in your building endevors, Scott
*A MASON !?! GET THE HEL......oh , we're not in the tavern.....well then, welcome aboard, Scott! Jeff
*Hey this is just a service of Taunton so folks can exchange ideas and maybe do some remote, no face socialization. We get a forum and Taunton gets more exposure and ideas for their magazines. Don't get too emotional about it. Some folks who do that tend to go off the deep end.
*You know Jeff, not everyone can be an elitist.
*ROFLMAORich Beckman
*Rusty:I have been around here for a few years. I feel that I have added value, and taken away even more. Never felt I was part of the clique though - if there is one. I will admit some of my comments have definitely contained resentment on occasion. Why - well it really torques me when someone rolls in here with a totally unresearched or unrelated question. When I say unresearched - I mean like they couldn't even take the time to read some of the posts already on the board and see that their question has already been discussed 5, 10, or 100 times - God forbid use the Breaktime i search function. In many of these type questions, no background is given. Like this question. Totally off the wall! Then ask a question or 2 for clarifications sake - and will they answer? - sometimes - if they are still reading the thread 3 hours after they posted it! When I say unrelated I am referring to topics which have nothing to do with Fine Homebuilding. These situations just plain degrade the board!If people would just take the time and effort to formulate intelligent and/or informed questions and responses, they will i always be treated with respect here. Still, it seems some people are just odd-balls, and pretty much reap what the sow. BTW - Scott: we need a good mason here!!
*Welcome aboard Rusty! Be sure not to wipe your feet. Read the "FOUNDATION VENT" post for it's ten day plan on how not to bring a house out of the ground.Good luck and happy building!
*I don't think anybody resents a homeowner, or someone GC'ing there own house. I do think you better develope a thick skin fast though. I mean this is not an office environment we work in, I've never seen a sexual harassment suit, and insults are real common. It's how we cope I guess. Rude , crude and uncultured, yes as a general rule sometimes I guess. Feelings, yeah, we have em' somewhere down there( we save them for our children and wives). But we call black..black, white white, and anything in between either black or white depending on our mood........................and the worst insult we can give out to someone on a job(the one that hurts the worst) .......'DON'T WORK WITH TOOLS MUCH, HUH?'
*Rusty,It's just like any other place, where the only thing two of the regulars can agree on is what the third guy is doing wrong. I've had post where I've gotten lots of responses and some where I have gotten few. But, I've always been welcome.Peace,Martin
*Hey Rusty, I'm back. "In all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane!." Mark TwainYou will find a great deal of spirited discourse in here.The more certain you are that you know what you're talking about the more the people in here will hand you your ass- mostly they are nice about it- and if you check your ego you can learn.So come on in and have a cold one and tell us about your problems...
*Rusty - I certainly don't resent newcomers - I think most of them get the answers they want, if they stick around and answer the inevitable counter-questions that come up. (Like "What part of the country do you live in ?)It seems that many of the off-the-wall questions Matt refers to have very little background info - not near enough to get a decent answer. The ones I b reallyresent are the ones who ask:"How can I do this i really cheap"I just want to tell them to take a flying leap. I don't have a problem with a legitimate question, but I don't like it when some tightwad tries to find a way half-assed way to get something done, and wants our blessing. So hang around a bit, post occasionally on things you have an opinion about. You'll feel welcome in time...........
*That's a terrible thing to suggest that there is some sort of elitist club..a sort of enclave that is exclusive!!
*Hi Rusty,I started posting here last fall and I was caught off guard at first aswell. Do a search in the archives for "Lose the attitude folks" and you'll see what I mean. The guys here got to know me pretty quick after that post. I hung around and learned real quick how things work around here. This is a good place with a good bunch of folk. Sure you'll run into attitude once in a while but like a few guys here once told me "don't let'em scare ya off". It's part of the charm and uniqueness of this forum. Sometimes things get carried away but it usually settles down in the end. Stick around, read some posts, check out the Tavern, and I'm sure you'll have a good time.Gaby(fellow non-professional...builder that is!)
*They may think they are an exclusive clique, but just clique your mouse and you can't be excluded. Internetus democraticus maximus.
*Ya know RustyYou seem to display a little attitude yerself.i "Someone said, "It has become a very elite little clique.". . . I just hope you remember that people come here looking for answers because they believe you can help them, whatever their experience level."You come here looking for FREE advice. . .no body here owes you anything and anything you i doget is an unqualified bonus. This board was setup for building professionals who wanted to spend some time talking shop for each others mutual benefit. If that makes it an i elite little clichein the eyes of the non professional lurkers. .. too bad. Nowhere that I have read is it advertised as a FREE ADVICE FORUM where participants are required to answer any and all questions politely and in detail.As has already been mentioned, most new inquiries come from people who are too lazy to bother to check the archives, they just ask the same tired old q's over and over. Fortunately for them, there's usually some gung ho newcomers to the board that want to flex their info muscles so answers are usually forthcoming, but there's a whole group, like myself, who have gotten tired of that aspect, and are drifting away.Lose your attitude sport and take what you get with gratitude.. . you sure as hell wouldn't get the time of day for free from your doctor or lawyer, or plumber, electrician, or mechanic for that matter!!!-pm
*still in mud season, huh ,paddie?..eh, laddy, cum over to tha tavern 'N hav a wee nip to settle yur course.....
*Wow Patrick! who got under your skirt?!
*Oh shut up !!View Image
*Actually, what Patrick says is pretty much common sense. I don't think he meant it to be insulting. He just didn't use as much tact as he might usualy use.
*Go jump in a lake Gaby!
*Hi guys,Don't worry he's already gone. Most of us have learned the hard way that if we take 10 or 20 minutes to answer a question, either A, we didn't have the particulars: or B, the recipient never visibly showed up for the answer. So, what clique am i in anyway, the gun toting yahoo clique i hope? I'll settle for the incredibly handsome. omnipotent, professional builder clique if there's anyone else there to keep me company. Lastly if there are some non-bandwagoner Michigan State University fan cliquers I'm in. Sorry M Scott D. i know we should be in a clique together but MSU fan is not 1 you'll be in with me. Maybe after Saturday when MSU beats the Badgers we can root for the Big 10 together.joe d
*That's kind of a nice idea; an enclave. A place to rest up from the wars. I'm in favour.
*Hey Rusty! Are you talkin' about all the guys in the "bearded clique"?
*I knew that I should have left the beard!!!
*I keep hearin about this "bearded clique" every where I clique. s'posed to be kind of a secret society, who's the blabbermouth.
*LukaSome people need to be "introduced" to the concept of not i biting the hand that feeds.-pm
*You put that hand on my knee again, and yer gunna learn the meaning of bite !!!
*All of this talk of the BT clique and no one has brought up the secret handshake and the AJ de9c9ode9r ri9ng! Do you get those rings in specially marked packages of cellulose?Rich Beckman
*I resent that, I have a beard. As to the forum, show me a better site that non-professionals can go for free advice and have some of the most experianced and qualified contractors answer questions for free?I charge my clients serious money for the same info that these contractors graciously give for nothing. I second the comments on the lack of using the archives and trying to build for cheap, the name of this board is Fine Homebuilding, not Cheap Homebuilding. Bill Swales
*Patick says "This board was setup for building professionals who wanted to spend some time talking shop for each others mutual benefit."Is that actually true? Does it say that somewhere? Does that mean that "amateurs" aren't allowed? (I bet that'd be news to Fine Homebuilding.)Isn't all the advice here FREE or do you guys have some way of paying each other? I'm definitely not "cheap" -- I just don't know where else I can go to tap the broad base of knowledge that exists here. If I knew how to pay for your services, I would. (In fact I offered to retain one fella here as a consultant.)Honestly, I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers, but Patrick's reply -- if it's representative -- proves my point I think.
*RustyThis is what it says in the current advertising for Breaktime:> "Put down your tools and take up your opinions with our community of home builders and home owners, courtesy of Fine Homebuilding magazine online."The blurb didn't always include i homeownersand elsewhere it still doesn't ( see FHb mag homepage ) and it used to be a little more specific about it being a forum for builders, without excluding others, but it still says i "put down your tools and take up your opinions"implying rather strongly that it is meant to be a DISUSSION board for those with OPINIONS on building, once again implying rather strongly - PROFESSIONALS! Nowhere does it say it's a FREE ADVICE For Homeowners forum. It just turned out that way because most participants are GENEROUS.Your post above tells me that you pretty much completely misunderstood the intent of my reply, and your point(?) has not been proven, so I'll say it again for you nice and clear. b Be grateful for the information you are given and don't lecture the participants here on how they should treat you!!! They are being Generous . .. you are not!!!-pm
*Rusty,I have only been here less than a fortnite meself. I am sure I have a lot to learn about the inner workings of this board. I may not know a whole bunch, but I am pretty sure that what Patrick said was not meant to be an insult.I wouldn't find it hard to believe that this forum was set up in the first place with the goal of getting contractors, subs, and anyone else directly involved in building a home together to chase thoughts and exchange ideas. After all, the mag this forum is supposed to mirror is called Fine Homebuilding. I would think that the people who started the forum, (Taunton), did not desire for it to be a 'contractors only' forum, or they would have instituted tactics like deleting any posts obviously made by homeowners or diy'ers. They did not, they have not. So, whether some people like it or not, Taunton has allowed this forum to become a place where anyone, contractor, homeowner, or 90 year old lady living in a 9x12 apartment with 20 cats pretending to be a contractor... can come and ask questions, answer questions, or just bullshit. You'll find me doing a LOT of the latter.Bottom line, it doesn't matter what the board USED to be. It doesn't matter what any one person here WANTS the board to be. What matters is what the board IS. And right now the board is a haven for homeowners, diy'ers, contractors, et al.It's obvious from your post, (originating this thread), and this followup post, (#18), that your real point is about how people are treated. There is only one thing I can say to that.... People are people whether you are talking to them on the phone, on a sidewalk, or through an electronic forum. When You talk to someone, you have no control over whether they are going to agree with you or not. You have no control over whether they are going to take something you said the wrong way or not. This is true in conversations in person or over the phone. In both cases you are able to use expressions of face, and/or inflections of voice to get your real meaning across. It is extremely more true in electronic conversations like this one, where you are only able to use the written word, and have to rely on others' ability to interpret what you actualy mean. When you print something out onto my screen, I see words. The way that I interpret those words depends on what eductaion I have had. Both in school, and in daily life. You know the potatos and potátos song. This is what I mean. I type potatos and you read potátos.You are asking real people to stop being human just so you won't get your feelings hurt when you read a reply. You are asking real people to stop being the real human's they are and start acting like some sort of smooth talking nice mannered information machines. You are asking real people to say potato when they momma's taught them potáto I say that Patrick's response makes sense because in essence he is saying, "look bucko, we were here first, we have a way of doing things here, and if you want to fit in, then either learn to go with the flow or at least learn to dog paddle." He was saying, (unless I read potáto when he said potato. LOL), that instead of coming into the room and asking everyone who is already here to change to be the way you want us to, you need to change enough to fit or float, or else you need to find a different room to go to.Now, all that being said, I find your intelligence and general demeaner to be such that you will fit well. I hope to see you sticking around and posting more. If you do, I think we will all benefit, you and us as well.Well met and welcome !!View Image
*The magasine used to be by and for professionals; people involved in building houses, emphasis on the more than one. It's reasonable I think to view the forum as an extension of that: primarily an exchange of information and opinion among professionals. the fact is,the magasine has widened it's focus to get more of the homeowner market (with things like the Kitchen and Bath issue), and the forum has attracted more and more homeowners. Fine Woodworking is now directed almost entirely, in my opinion, to hobbyists, and the forum their definitely reflects that (personally I think it's a shame, and I respect FH for trying to stick to it's guns) I certainly don't mind that homewoners come here to get information; they are and should be part of the mix. But the place is, primarily, for professionals, and that's to the homeowners benefit. You learn by watching, and listening, and asking the occasional question. And searching the freaking archives before posting that old chestnut of a question for the umpteenth time.
*In my opinion, I enjoy exchanging ideas with fellow tradesmen, and I also enjoy helping people out whether DIY'ers, homeowners or whatever and hope that at least some of my suggestions have done just that, I think that this mix is what makes this board so interesting. It's really no differn't than being on the job. There you're exchanging ideas with fellow craftsmen about job procedures, tools,etc. and you are also answering questions being asked by the persons having the home built.I have met alot of great people while doing this and some not so great, but regardless, it sure does make life interesting.
*More a cult of Hippie Reprobates... Similar to those '60s Radical groups. Chants of: "Free the Woodshed Seven" heard outside the Capitol...
*Wash your Jeep lately?
*My thougths exactly... add the low hum of Blackflies...
*DUDE! D9on't menti9on the ring.
*uhh. . . wouldn't that be "capiti al" or at perhaps Kapital??-pm
*Rusty,I started checking out this board after starting my own home last year, and it has been a great source of info. I have asked a few questions and gotten nothing but thoughtful, intelligent answers. But Patrick is right on the money with his response. We are guests in these folks jobsite, and a little humility is appropriate. These are great people, and guys like Patrick are the first ones to answer an intelligent question after flaming you for a stupid one. Like someone said, keep your eyes and ears open and you will learn. There is a wealth of info here, if you take the time to look, and don't take the sarcasm to heart.
*Rusty, with no help from Dr. Guido (resident counter-culture psych.) I'll asks the obvious:What's really eatin' ya? Eh?I'd gather, you were offended by the slap in your referenced post, towards This Old House Magazine.It's a wonderful magazine. Full of advertising, little projects for the DIYer, and supports the show of the same name.A mind-expanding, cutting edge, professional-orientated tome? Not.The forums here on Taunton have swayed back and forth for the past few years.Egos, Alter(ed)Egos, Progressives, Traditionalists, Professionals, Craftsmen, Artisans, Hacks, Dubbers, Wankers (Dickie), DIYers, Homeowners and wannabe Homeowners, Cooks, and That Gurl, have all held sway at one time or another.Content varies greatly. As stated above, many do not fully participate on these (several) forums for various reasons.Repetitive Questions. Poor Information. Combative Questions. At times, questions will be asked, that get no response. Damn. Elitists. Or, no one person, on the forum at that time, had a clue as to what the answer is.Some of us are really REALLY busy. Do you know that there is a building boom on? Taunton's been slow on the uptake, no check "for services rendered" in my mailbox, and server problems over the past two years, made many good professionals... leave.So... you're stuck with us, or you may head on over to http://www.jlconline.com which is The Journal of Light Construction's website. Bring your hardhat, asprin, and a band-aid, and cabfare for the ride home. A much less friendly site for homeowners.As for Patrick's posts above: Once you get good with him, we'll set the big dogs on ya.
*I couldn't spell Kremlin.
*If your gonna hang out here, Rusty, and expect anybody to give a hoot about you, you better be able to stand up to a little joshing and have a sense of humor. Nobody likes a wussy around here, and nobody wants to hear whining. You have something to say, then say it. Somebody else thinks you're a fool, they'll tell you. And if you don't like, tough. That's life here. The TOH boards are for people who want to pretend. This place is for real. And the people who come here aren't going to put on their dainty shoes because you're a homeowner and not a builder. So if you want people's advice, especially since you're not paying for it, cut the Mr. Sensitivity crap and get down to it.SHG
*I agree with Mad Dog Maglin. The mix of pros and non pros is what sets this board apart from the others I've tried.Every once in awhile, someone gets hacked off that their question didn't get enough response, or the tone of the board is "elitest" (seems like another of Matt's repetitive questions). Whenever I see these, I wonder what the poster is hoping to accomplish. Is he/she trying to change the tone? Is he/she "scolding" the regulars? The board is what it is, (and always changing like GWC said). I believe you have the choice of whether to come here or go elsewhere, but you don't have the right to tell us what we should respond to or how seriously we should act. Most of us are professionals, serious about our craft and our business. We wear a professional mask every day and spend countless hours monthly making decissions about what techniques and materials and business practices to impliment so we can stay afloat and feed our families. If we don't give you the attention you need at Breaktime ("Break time", like a coffee break, get it?) that's on you. If you want to hold someone accountable for the way they answer your questions, go hire a construction consultant. A contractor maybe.
*Hey.......Nobo9dy sent m9e a ri9ng!Whe9re's my ri9ng?Ed. Wil9liams
*And don't take our advice to a sub and say"such and such said you should be doing it this or that way" HGTV in 1/2 hour a week has armed more people with to little info and made contractors the country over have to deal with overinformed customers. I have a customer right now that has not missed a show in 3 years asking me every step on the way, what other way this could be done " like I saw on HGTV". The latest is " I want 2x6 walls and R19 foilfaced in the walls, THEY say it can be done for only pennies more than 2x4's and will repay that in a year with the energy savings" Yep, I say 200 pennies more per stud, plus insulation, plus the extra framing labor, and oh yes the jamb extensions on the windows that are already at the warehouse, plates, and the list goes on and on.I break it down for them at about $5000 for their house and they look at me like I'm the one trying to rip them off. That guy on TV said pennies!! I'll admit I get very aggrevated getting calls on my family time to discuss what they saw on TV. OK OK I'll take a deep breath and count to 10 now
*Joe,If you're looking to get into the incredibly handsome, omnipotent, professional builder clique, then it looks like it may just be you and me. Of course we could always just drop the handsome requirement and let a few others in for the company. Maybe they will buy us a round or two?Pete "the universal cure for ugliness" Draganic
*OK, guys... all your points are well taken. I will consider myself a guest here, and will defer to you "professionals" out there. I won't try to "blend it" because I couldn't if I tried -- I'll stay out of The Tavern and stick to technical stuff. I will use the "search" function (I really hadn't even thought of it till you pointed it out) and not bother you with old questions.I don't much care for TOH for exactly the reasons you stated in the TOH thread. That's why I came here -- to get the straight scoop.I am certainly not sensitive, a wuss, or thin-skinned. I've been harrassed by professionals, so when you think I need it, bring it on. But I reserve the right to express my opinions as well. Anything posted here is in the public domain, so I have the right to comment as I see fit.
*Thats funny, I can't spell Kremlin either.You know, there's another word I can't spell... applesauce. No wait !! I just did ! I spelled applesauce ! Beat that, you Trotskyite.
*attaboy , Rusty, and you're welcome in the tavern , as long as you're buyin ('Gansett or Ballantine for me)
*Hey,
View Image © 1999-2000"Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth." Socrates
*PM,
View Image © 1999-2000"Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth." Socrates
*I resent that! We are a bunch of premadonnas here & I am more prema than the others but you don't have to rub it in... OK!!
*elite i nselect group of people, best part of anything.-pm
*As stated by others there is a good mix here and that is what makes it worth joining in. Some of the technical types put a real cerebral bent to the threads and the homeowner-diyser's come at it from the other end. i hope to fall somewhere in the middle with a couple of years out in the field and a curiosity that still burns. The breadth and depth of the subjects from laying out an eliptical dome to favorite rock and roll song adds to a pretty interesting site. For me it's a lot like being on site. Some people are easy to work with and others a pain. Some contributions are good and others may be lame but everyone get's a shot and that is why I'm comfortable here. Skip
*Rusty, you got the point. Do what you want. Say what you want. Go where you want. Just be ready for anybody to answer you back any way they want, or maybe just ignore you completely. And if you start giving advice here, where a crash helmet.SHG