Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 29, 1999 08:42pm | #1

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   Hi Joe,

   You can't have separation without structural failure.

   Highly unlikely that you would have sufficient water buildup in between the wall and the veneer to cause this kind of damage unless you had total failures of the system. The weep holes, the seals around all the opennings, the roof etc.

   There is always a small amount of shrinkage that takes place in new construction. This is probably what your looking at.

   If the brick had come away, there would be all kinds of telltale cracks on the wall.

   Gabe

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 30, 1999 01:50am | #2

   *Maybe the mason didn't use wall ties??On the other hand, I'm with Gabe - if the brick were moving, there would be other symptoms.

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 30, 1999 05:25am | #3

   *I agree with Gabe's comments except one; it is possible to have separation with telltale cracks in the wall. I have seen several examples of this. I'd say there is not adequate tie-in to the house.

1. 
   Guest_ | Jun 30, 1999 07:09am | #4

   *I've seen the masons lay the brick with the airspace showing! this is especially common when the brick around the window is turned and stepped out 1".blue

2. 
   Joe_Bates | Jul 01, 1999 06:54pm | #5

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   The bricks I see have moved away from the wall. There are old caulk lines that show where the brick used to be against the brick mold. Inside there are no structural failures. The only movement is in the brick veneer. It is entirely possible that the brick mason didn't use enough (or any!) ties. I have seen numerous examples of this, however, and I'm convinced that water has something to do with it. Why else would the brick move? In one house, the brick didn't move where there was a one story roof and a large overhang, but did where there was a two story roof (and only a one story brick face)where the water could get to the brick more easily. It's been a long time since I've seen a mason install weep holes, so there isn't a really good way for water to escape.

3. 
   Guest_ | Jul 01, 1999 08:19pm | #6

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   Good Morning Joe,

   I don't remember you saying if this house was brick all around. If it's only a face side, then the water would be able to drain at the ends as well as weep holes.

   If you examine a full wall of brick, you have to realize that it is a solid wall. In other words for it to move without cracking, it would have to shift at the bottom.

   Don't rely on the caulking line as a guide. The house lumber shrinking on the inside will also cause the separation you see. Try checking the wall with a straight edge and a level.

   What I'm basically saying is that I'm not convinced that the brick has moved.

   We can't see your wall and have to rely on your eyes.

   You also have to realize that a certain amount of heat escapes between the walls and makes it difficult for ice to do damage.

   Gabe

4. 
   Joe_Bates | Jul 02, 1999 03:44am | #7

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   I don't think you have to see massive cracking for the wall to move. Remember how many mortar joints are involved. The brick wraps around most of these houses entirely on the first floor. Sometimes there is only a first floor and the entire house is brick. I've seen condensation in the attic run down the roof and collect behind the brick face and literally destroy the veneer. When there is no attic immediatley above the veneer face as there would be with only a first floor veneer, there has to be some force behind the movement. There is movement, too guys. I can't believe the caulk and paint lines could be off by 3/4ths of an inch with no sign of movement in the basement or the framed walls without the brick moving. Sometimes it takes the trim boards (the boards that begin the siding or the soffit trim - facia)with it and pushes them out. It is moving! Believe me! Please! When it's 25 below, I can see anything freezing even given the heat escaping from the framed structure. The bricks would conduct that heat away pretty quickly. I have seen frost form from air leaks around windows where the frust sticks into the house into the heated space an inch. Think about it. Like I said before, I've seen this numerous times in the last few years. I'm just looking for someone else who has seen it and has figured out the why and wherefore.

5. 
   Guest_ | Jul 02, 1999 04:02am | #8

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   Joe:

   Hard to believe that there could be that much movement in brick w/o cracking.

   Sounds like a case for the X-files. By the way, what is a Forensic Engineer?

6. 
   G.LaLonde | Jul 02, 1999 04:10am | #9

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   Joe, I believe you! I believe you!! I have seen two buildings in the last five years lose a brick veneer wall in one big sheet. Neither of them had brick ties. There were no signs of cracking between bricks on either one of them. One of them fell on a $35,000 truck I just parked. I suspect you don't have any brick ties to the wall. All it takes is a few degrees of leaning and the brick can start to fall away in one big sheet. If this was not the case, you wouldn't need brick ties!

   If it is getting worse each year, sooner or later it is going to fall right off the house. 3/4" of movement is a sign of a disaster waiting to happen.

7. 
   Guest_ | Jul 02, 1999 04:20am | #10

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   Joe,
   What is the brick sitting on ? If it is a step in the foundation then that is probably fine, but if it has its own separate footing then what is the condition of that footing? Can you check it?

   Overall it sounds like too few or no wall ties to me, but if the foundation is heaving or settling on a tilt that might contribute to it's demise. If it's leaning 3/4" I think you better consider tearing it down before it falls.

   RM

1. 
   Guest_ | Jul 02, 1999 04:26am | #11

   *How old are these houses and are they in the same area ? Were you the builder ? Are the interwoven corners intact ? If so there should be a bulge easily seen by eye from corner to corner . We dont have sustained extreme cold here ,though it does get down around zero for a few days at a time , but the only cold related problems I've seen are bricks absorbing moisture and freezing and popping the faces off . The type of major movement your talking about has been caused by the footing moving in my experience . Chuck

1. 
   Guest_ | Jul 02, 1999 07:32am | #12

   *Hi Joe, RM is correct when he points to the corners. I don't care what causes the movement, there has to be cracking someplace. They may be hairline and hard to see, but they must be there.If the wall came away by 3/4" then you have an easy to see bulge of 3/4" with a bunch of cracks around it.With regards to the cause, it's quiet possible that a sheet of ice can form at any elevation on the wall. Moisture droplets can escape from the inside and condensate against the cold brick.If this is occuring, it will even form on the outside of the brick face. It's almost as if the entire brick is moist and ices on both faces.As some of the other guys indicated, if it is coming away from the wall, and you have no ties, you have a major safety problem and the wall will have to be removed.Gabe

1. 
   Guest_ | Jul 02, 1999 07:33am | #13

   *Hi Joe, RM is correct when he points to the corners. I don't care what causes the movement, there has to be cracking someplace. They may be hairline and hard to see, but they must be there.If the wall came away by 3/4" then you have an easy to see bulge of 3/4" with a bunch of cracks around it.With regards to the cause, it's quiet possible that a sheet of ice can form at any elevation on the wall. Moisture droplets can escape from the inside and condensate against the cold brick.If this is occuring, it will even form on the outside of the brick face. It's almost as if the entire brick is moist and ices on both faces.As some of the other guys indicated, if it is coming away from the wall, and you have no ties, you have a major safety problem and the wall will have to be removed.Gabe

8. 
   Joe_Bates | Jul 02, 1999 05:30pm | #14

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   A forensic engineer is one who investigates a failure of some sort. Also disasters like fires or tornadoes. We asses the amount of damage attributable to that event and tell the client why the damage occurred and how to fix it. My original training was as a mechanical engineer. My PE is general. I was registered before registration became specific.

1. 
   Joe_Bates | Jul 02, 1999 05:34pm | #15

   *Most of these houses are constructed with basements and a brick ledge for the brick to sit on. A few have block foundations with an "L" block for the top course. It's hard to check for wall ties until the gap gets a little bigger so I can either see inside or insert a yardstick and swing it. My guess is there are too few ties. I just can't figure out why it is moving out. Why not in? They all move out as far as I can tell, but maybe no one complains if it moves in 1/2 inch.

1. 
   Joe_Bates | Jul 02, 1999 06:00pm | #16

   *I think you are right on the hairline cracks. It would be easy for there to be cracks between the bricks and the mortar that would be impossible to see. I've seen walls that have waves in them where they've moved and few if any bricks have cracked. Safety is always an issue and when failure is emminent I recommend that people vacate the house! I can't have this stuff falling just after I've looked at it and not issue a warning. I looked at a chimney for a master bedroom once and told the folks not to sleep in their bed until it was repaired! The only problem I'm having with all of this is the mechanism for failure. It is surely ice between the brick and the framed wall, but there is no consensus out there. Thanks for the replies. By the way, none of these are my houses. I try to do the best I can and avoid these problems. Time will tell, I suppose.

1. 
   Joe_Bates | Jul 02, 1999 06:05pm | #17

   *Most of these houses are on basements. The brick is sitting on a brick ledge on the concrete or an "L" block. Often you can see a bulge in the brick and the corners are intact. The bending occurs gradually at the hundreds of joints between the corners. Sometimes I see the corners break, but when that happens, failure is emminent and we have a safety problem. We see faces popping off the brick, but usually it's on a parapet wall or the chimney where exposure is greater and there is no heat to drive the mositure on through or to warm the brick. The lighter bricks are more subject to this, white, yellow or in the case of used brick, the interior orange bricks that were never intended for exterior use. The houses are in central Indiana and I was NOT the builder. I hope my houses hold up better, but time will tell. I do use wall ties.

1. 
   Gene_Bals | Jul 02, 1999 06:53pm | #18

   *Joe, if the movement is noticed this time of year and is on the south & west faces, the brick is expanding with heat. Movement can be considerable, especially in warmer climates, and if there are no expansion joints to take up this movement the brick will bow out.If there has been ongoing movement for several years, chances are the brick ties were the cheap galvanized nail on type and they have corroded from condensation and broken, allowing the brick to bow out until there is a solid tie to anchor it. You can usually check for the presence of ties in a wall with a cheap metal detector, the type they use for hunting coins on the beach. Should be a tie for about every two sq.ft.Good Luck. Gene B.

2. 
   Philip_Lawrence | Jul 02, 1999 07:15pm | #19

   *Hello:I think that the gentleman from Port Carpentry Inc. has it right. It is likely a wall tie problem exaccerbated by foundation movement and water-freeze-thaw doing damage. While it isn't recommended by anyone, I've seen multistorey walls of brick veneer stand for decades w/out ties (only the corners and bricks around fenestration, roofs and footings tie back). This was done in the "old days" for buildings that were completed when short of money and meant to be added on to or "finished" shortly thereafter. And brick wall w/ mortar joints is a somewhat elastic presence. It can move in mass, the only cracking is the separation between it and the structure; the wall can maintain a crack-free appearance.I think what you are working w/ was probably poor craftsmanship or experimental; either way, if it has moved 3/4", then it's just going to continue and demands remedy.

9. 
   Joe_Bates | Jul 06, 1999 06:47pm | #20

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   What causes brick veneer to separate from the framed wall and pull past things like window openings, exposing the space behind the brick. Water penetration and subsequent freezing?