Hi All
My wife and I just moved to our new house built in 1969. This is the first place either of us has lived that is on a well. We have been here about a week and last week we had a couple of days of rain. Next thing you know the water coming out of the pipes is the color of tea. Not quite sure what to think. Is the well not deep enough? Is surface water draining into the well? Is it a bad well?
My question is, is there something I can do to find out or do I need to hire a well driller?
The day we closed on the house we were given two well reports. One report found e-coli and then one they did seven days later came up bacteria free. I was told that it is standard practice to “Bleach shock” the system to get rid of bacteria and that it is not really a big deal. The way I understand it is that the bacteria come from somewhere like runoff or a bad septic. Which leads me to belive that surface water is getting into the well. But I can’t say for sure
I just took a sample and am having it tested this week.
Thanks for any and all input. I am completley frustrated.
J.P.
Replies
OH OH...don't drink it.
Sounds a LOT like surface runoff getting in..or worse.
Test it frequently. Do not drink it, or even brush yer teeth with that water..E.COLI can kill you, or make you pray that someone will.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Watch out for the edges, it's really fast out there...
SPHERE,
Since it turned brown we have been using bottled water for drinking and brushing teeth. I hope to have test results soon.
J.P.
That is a good thing..does it clear up after running a while?Any Odor?even if the answer is NO to both, do not chance anything. I been there.After the test is clear ( I hope), ya may just need a whole house filter installed, then get more aggressive at the common drinking taps. Britta type, or UV light, there are many..I had an RO sys, with UV..cuz it was a spring..even killed the lizards when they got in the faucets.(G)
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Watch out for the edges, it's really fast out there...
It is still not clear, kind of like weak tea. Going on 4 days now.Does not run clear no matter how long the water is on.No perceptible odor.I have an estimate for a UV system with a particle filter for $925.00 installed with 2 tests. One test before and after installation.Although I would really like to know why this is happening so that I can try to mitigate the negative factors as much as possible.Is there any possibility of the system you have to become "overloaded" and allow a possible contamination?J.P.
Better get in touch with Tom..he's a sharp guy and local.just don't buy any mandolins from him..they are fakes (G)
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Watch out for the edges, it's really fast out there...
listen to Sphere
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
what do you know about the well? size of casing? type of pump? how old? represented as being how deep?
gotta say, on the basis of the info presented, I agree with the others....
In addition, FOLLOW the testing proceedure to the letter..(use clean containers, run the tap for the prefferred amount of time, etc.)AND test for GHARDIA LAMBDIA or something close to that...I had it for over a yr and a half from a contaminated spring...monthly bouts of gastrointestinal trouble...hard to diagnose, harder to cure.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Watch out for the edges, it's really fast out there...
Then there's the cryptosporidium stuff that killed off a bunch of folks in Milwaukee a few years back.I'm thankful for the loyal opposition! It's hard to learn much from those who simply agree with you.
Looks to be a 4" casing, I don't know how old. Not sure of the pump type. My wife is going to call the health department tomorrow to get the information , if there is any, on when the new well was put in. I don't know how deep it is. How does one measure the depth of a well like this? I'm stickin to bottled water and beer.
J.P.
How does one measure the depth of a well like this?...when the new well...
does the pump set on top of the casing? - I would expect a 'new' well to have a submersible pump, at least around here...which means the pump hangs below static water level in the casing - - if you remove the cap, you might be able to tell something about the static level...if you really wanta, you could get a few joints of 1/2" plastic pipe and go 'plumb' the depth (don't lose it in there - tie a wire to the first section!) - for an example, my well is 88' deep, with a static water level of 35' - - which means nothing to someone living on Virginian geology....
dunno...good luck... hope it's something as simple as diverting some surface run-off"there's enough for everyone"
Looks to be a 4" casing
C'vlle? This I know about. The only 4" rig around here was Carlton Luck's, which I now own. You in the Esmont area? Well won't be over 150'. My pump's set at 125'.
No pitless adapter for 4" casing, at least not from Drillers' Service, the only local source. Best guess is inproperly grouted. Health Dept. may be of help. A well house might work. I have mine set in a large concrete cylinder, but it was also properly grouted.
Regarding water testing, it's common here to shock a well prior to sale. Coliform is what they are testing, which is only an indicator that there might be something harmful there. Coliform is present in the gut of everything. Brown water after a rain is something entirely different, means surface water getting in there, with coliform all but guaranteed.
Send me an email if I can help. Grouting was uncommon until about 15 yrs ago. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I'm on the Earlysville side of Buck Mountain. About a couple of miles from Greene county.The test was for coliform but specifically stated that e-coli was present. When I spoke to the lab engineer who did the test he said that of all the total coliform e-coli is the worst and requires further examination to determine the source. Also that e-coli comes only from human or animal waste which is why I am concerned. The house is 35 years old and has 2 wells. Is it "normal" to have to keep drilling wells every 15 years or so?Is it possible to deepen an existing well? Or is one better off starting from scratch?J.P.
Hi J.P., I guessed wrong. Carlton was based in Esmont. It's possible that somebody else had/has a 4" rig, but I've not heard of it. And Drillers' Service believes I have the only one.
Under that 2' concrete tube w/ cap, what's there? Is there another casing or is it a dug well, where you see water? Dug wells were normal here, forever, but they always got muddy when it rained. That was before anybody paid attention to coliform. First house I rented here had one (and nothing else) 20' from the old 2-seater outhouse (with woodstove). We ignorantly drank the water until the first rain. Coliform turned out "too numerous to count".
It is not normal to keep drilling wells every 15 yrs or so. It is normal for well production to drop off slightly, or more than slightly, from the drillers' report. I don't know your geology, and that's not where Carlton was normally working, but he's in the phone book if you want to give him a call. Might be Rev. Luck (he is). As I was told, not the most competent driller that ever was. Which is why he sold me his rig.
Deepening an existing well is very difficult. For one, you have a substandard bore, 4". For another, the rig has to be exactly positioned over the existing bore. A hole in the ground here is normally $3k, plus hookup and hardware. 1 gpm used to be the normal guarantee, but I don't think most drillers do that anymore.
My well (near Batesville on top of Israel Mountain) produced 2 gal/min when I drilled it. My first and only well. Don't know what it's producing now, but we've never had a problem. There are folks around who assert that you don't have a "real" well with under 10 gal/min, but if you talk to the health dept. they'll tell you that 1-2 gal/min is normal.
Goldhiller's idea of dropping a weight down actually will tell you where your pump is however. With a 4" bore, your weight won't go past the pump. Don't forget to measure how much wet string you have. Then you can calculate your reservoir. Without knowing production and pump, you won't ever know how long you can pump until you pump air. You can have somebody out to blow out the water and measure production if you want, but I wouldn't unless you have a production problem.
If you dig down around the outside of your 4" casing, like 1-2' down, what's there? If it's grouted, it'll either be concrete or a gray slime clay (bentonite). I'm betting you don't have any bentonite, very possibly no concrete either. Before drilling another well I'd try a well house or at least a decent (drained) concrete slab around the casing.
Check with me before you buy a replacement pump, if you ever need one, for that 4" bore, unless it's exactly straight, a standard 3 7/8" pump won't go down. Driller's Service screwed me with that once.
Pay no attention to Sphere's mandolin comments, he thinks a luthier is somebody who stretches strings across a board and amplifies the vibration. <G>PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
...produced 2 gal/min when I drilled it. ... health dept. they'll tell you that 1-2 gal/min is normal.
hmmm....we pumped 100 gpm for 2 hours after drilling - 22 gpm pump, doesn't shut off for days at a time during peach season, when I've got trickle irragation going on several acres....midwest is good for something - - I like the taste of minerals....
"there's enough for everyone"
hmmm....we pumped 100 gpm for 2 hours after drilling - 22 gpm pump, doesn't shut off for days at a time during peach season, when I've got trickle irragation going on several acres....midwest is good for something - - I like the taste of minerals....
This is also a big peach (and apple) area, now turning to grapes. Some wells produce unmeasurable amounts, but it's rare. Across the road from me, and down several hundred ft in elevation, the guy got an artesian flow after drilling 30'. 150' across from him, his son got 1.5 gpm with a 300' well. 1 mile down the road is a new apple orchard with what they claimed was the biggest drip system in the world. As I once involved installing a monster one in Israel, I was skeptical.
New thing around here is proof of water before a building permit is issued. From now on, it's drill first. There are a lot of areas that just don't have any water. I know of one 2 acre lot that had 4 dry holes, the fifth hole produced 1 qt/min. Lot got approved for a 3 br house, with a 300' reservoir. Not anyplace I'd buy. Water has turned into a very big issue here.
I don't know J.P.'s area, we live on opposite ends of the county, but talking to the neighbors, and the health dept. will generally reveal if there's a common problem.
Sounds like you wouldn't like our water, which we find excellent. <G>
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I find geology fascinating...
edit to add: 25 years ago we visited college friends as we all started out on our adventures - - they lived south or southwest of Chicago in a rented farmhouse - 800' well pumping into a cistern - it would pump a couple of gallons, shut off to recover, and then pump again...
was told it wasn't like that years earlier, but that demands on the aquifer had basically dried it up...made an impression on me...particularly when I see the most precious substance on earth abused or taken for granted....
"there's enough for everyone"
Edited 1/18/2005 10:08 am ET by David Doud
that demands on the aquifer had basically dried it up...made an impression on me...particularly when I see the most precious substance on earth abused or taken for granted....
< HIJACK ALERT>
Who was it that was moving to Tucson? I believe the city's now hooked into that Carl Hayden boondoggle perpetuated on the whole of the US taxpayers called the Central Arizona Project. Not that there ever was surplus Colorado River water. And screw the Mexicans... and the Tucson farmers whose claim that they were there first was mostly ignored. That's one aquifer that ain't comin' back.
Wonder if Arizona still has the greatest per capita number of boats of any state. I grew up on water there. Haven't been to Phoenix for quite awhile, but the trend was to lake communities. Created lakes of course. Attitude there was, and presumably still is: if you've got the bucks, do whatever you want with the water. World's tallest fountain! Same subdivision, they dug up all the cactus and packed them into little areas. Looked nice but cactus doesn't grow that way. Then they had to irrigate the cactus to keep it alive. Oops.
The central Arizona county I was reared in has sunk 40' elevation in spots, from pumping. I understand that cotton is no longer king and maybe they've seen the light. Great farmland- if you've got the water.
But a little back to J.P.'s situation, in central Va we drill down to bedrock, case, and continue drilling until we hit water or give up. Generally water is less than 100' down. Not always anything you want to drink. Ummm, that's wrong. You said you like the taste of minerals. <G>
Some of the alternative architecture lists advocate water catchment, off the roof with attendant treatment, as the sole water source. I sure prefer our situation. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Yup. You're right about finding the pump only.Totally slipped my mind that this is a 4" casing. Never saw one of those around here either.Old tin casings, yes. 4", no.Well here is 170'. 6". Foot valve at 100'. During extended drought of '88/89 here, water at 13' below grade. Pump all you want. No end in sight.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
hello - I'm also getting brown water after rain in a 4 year old well - 400', cased to 85, by a very reputable driller, who is coming out in a day or so to pull the pump and drop a camera; but my old well, 195', casing unknown, 1oo' away, was never capped or filled, as the driller said it was mandated but not really necessary...so, my question is how would it be a source of contamination? pardon my stupidity if it's really obvious....
toledo, Sorry to say that I'm gettin' pooped out here tonight, so I'm just gonna toss this at you for now. I think you'll find the answers you're looking for though. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=abandoned+well+contamination&btnG=Google+SearchKnowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
thanks - I'm poopin out too, but read just enough to keep me awake in bed....
Hey Tom,I was wrong about the casing size. It is a 6".Under the concrete there is another well cap but it is just at the surface. This may be a source for contamination. I took some pictures and will post them with descriptions.I don't think I have a production problem, we seem to have plenty of volume but it is just the wrong color. I don't mind a little sediment but the wife won't have any of it. Neither of us can handle e-coli.My wife spoke to C.R. Moore today. Do you know anything about their operation? They want $100.00 to come out to have a look see. Sounds reasonable to me.So do you play as well as build mandolins?J.P.
Hi J.P.,
6" is standard. That's good. Also explains how your wire and pipe exit the casing. Lanny Moore knows whereof he speaks, if you can get him out. This is very small potatoes for his business. I assume that the cap is Moore's and that's why you chose them? Another suggestion would be Larry Hall out of Nelson county. There are also a few drillers I'd suggest that you stay away from. Very few would charge to come out to likely give you a sales pitch for a new well.
So in the concrete enclosure is another 6" casing? Very odd that two (modern) wells are so close together. If one well is allowing surface water into your aquifer, that's really bad news and I don't have an answer, other than ask the health dept.
Sediment is normal here. We use a whole house filter that I got from Grainger. Takes out sediment down to 5 micron with a pair of filters that go over 1 yr for us. But that's different from muddy after that drenching we got. A rain, no matter how hard, shouldn't muddy the well water. If it does, that means surface water is contaminating. Our sediment wasn't a big deal except it clogged up the washer screen repeatedly. Some areas have so much that the well is essentially useless. As I mentioned, I don't know your area very well. Lovely out there.
I'm neither a luthier nor a musician. Tin ear. Old joke with Sphere (who isn't very good about sending promised seeds for miraculous tomatoes) about a friend of mine who is both, and spends considerable time in Sphere's town. Stelling Banjo Works, over the mountain from here is world famous and has attracted a lot of budding luthiers. At one time I made cherry inserts for all their banjo necks. My avocation is furniture making, but I haven't accepted a commission for awhile, busy trying to finish construction projects for us.
You're apparently new to the area. There're 2 other BTers around. Give me a yell if I can help.
Edit: I've since seen your pix. I misunderstood the wells proximity. Nothing unusual there. Are you certain that the muddy water only occurred with the rain? Should be clearing by now. If it's not, may not be a rain/groundwater contamination problem. Then you get on with raising the pump a few feet, filters, and so forth. If you can get the history of why the second well, you'll be way ahead. Likely more testing in your near future. Any chance the previous owners would be willing to shed some light?
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 1/18/2005 9:39 pm ET by VaTom
After looking at the pics, looks to me, too, like it might be the grout, or lack thereof. It could be cracked, I've even seen part of it sink. That water in your caisson had to go somewhere. Could be that the casing wasn't run deep enough, seen that, too. Here, it needs to run to the first hit of bedrock. The fix to run a longer PVC casing inside the steel. 6" pump will still fit.I was told by a driller that wells can change, too, in that new fissures supplying water can open, and old ones can close. When a new one opens, a new set of stuff can enter the well too. Also, here in NC, well drilling and/or pump companies have to notify the county whenever they go to check out a problem, a county health official will be on hand for any serious fixin'.On the other hand, you should feel lucky you have any water<G>. I used to live in Greene Co., around Stanardsville. Last house I worked on up there had four 500' wells drilled, 2 came up dry, the other 2 produced 1gpm between them. WooHoo! (sorry, guess that should be Wahoo<G>).Good luck.
Don't worry, we can fix that later!
I don't know what the grout looks like, or even what it is. But I was thinking that the old casing is acting like a conduit to the draw down area of the new well and that is what could be the problem.Since we started looking for homes in the area it was brought to our attention that water issues are a big deal here. Especially since there is so much growth occurring in a short amount of time.I am going to see if the previous owner knows anything about the situation. However he lives in MA now and wasn't very cooperative when we were asking questions prior to purchasing the property. Plus if he thinks he may give up some information that would incriminate him, then he is more likely to clam up.I was hoping to find the person who put the well in to see if they still had it in a log book. The County records only go back to 1992 and this property is not in any of those.I know a Wahoo is a Virginia Cavaliers fan, but what exactly is a Wahoo?I'm a Buckeye. It's a tree with poisonous nuts.J.P.
Edited 1/18/2005 11:14 pm ET by j.p.
"I was told by a driller that wells can change, too, in that new fissures supplying water can open, and old ones can close. When a new one opens, a new set of stuff can enter the well too.'Excellent point.When we bought this place in '88, the iron content was 1.5 PPM. Then in '90 or thereabouts, we had a smallish quake. I happened to be sitting with my legs dangling out the attic scuttle at the time. I could feel the house move a tad and thought it was heavy wind. It was tornado season. Went outside to zero wind. Heard on the news that night that we had a quake. Kinda rare. End result was that a fissure opened and our iron content has been 4.5 PPM ever since. And the same result for many surrounding wells. Glad to say that our equipment removes all this iron, so you wouldn't know it was ever there. Frequently (way more often than not).........wells around these parts that are located near railroad tracks have "poor" water. The greater the train traffic over the years, the worse the water. Repetitive "minor" shaking seems to do the deed,too. Just a mile away the water is fantastic, but almost every well in close proximity to the tracks.......ugh.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Tom,
I definitley think we are going to install a better filter system. The one we have now needs to be changed and I can't get the filter cartridge off. I'm thinking we may have to go with a UV system as well in order to be sure we can keep the water safe.My wife spoke to the people at Moore's and seemed to think they would be quite helpful. The water is clearing up. Now it is kind of pale yellow/red color.I'm quite positive that the muddy water came with the rain, although we have only been in the house now aince Jan 6.My wife and I just moved here in August. Funny thing is I plan on starting my furniture shop here. The reason we bought this place was to have space to build my shop. We were hoping to stay closer to Charlottesville but it was just too expensive. Plus it is really beautiful here in Earlysville.When I get to building my shop don't be suprised if I come knockin on your door. I'm not to proud to beg.J.P.
J.P.,
Wecome to the neighborhood. Wahoo's a fish, known for prodigious drinking, hence the moniker. Is Shelter keeping you busy until you get your shop? Don't know what's going on in their shop (Free Union). They tried to get me several yrs ago, when I was operating a shop for one of their competitors. Blaise Gaston's out that way too. Hope you aren't one of his "helpers".
Certainly filtering and UV are going to be a lot cheaper than a new well. Hard to say when we'll have rain again, but you really do want to know, 100% certainty, that it's rain caused. I once went through the pool make-up water for one of the local deep pockets farms (a very good Moore customer). Virtually every water treatment company lied to me. Grainger knows me, so if you need some hardware, give a yell. Iron in well water here isn't particularly rare. Gotta identify what you have, red clay mud, iron, whatever. Then you can fix it.
Now if you'll just provide some warmer weather I'd certainly appreciate it. Trying to get a copper roof on my lumber drying/storage building but it's gotta warm up a little first. Bottom floor houses a big planer and 42" sander if you need, down the road. This is post&beam over concrete. I'm generally DIY about everything.
Good luck with the well. Come on aknockin', begging unnecessary. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Definitely sounds like ground water entering.
Most likely culprits would be…….
1- Well casing is barely above grade in a well pit and has an open top. Surface water is pouring over the top and into the casing. If your well casing comes up in a well pit it would keep this it out of view unless you open the lid to the pit and look in. If this is the case, the sale should never have been allowed to take place until a pitless adapter was installed which would bring the casing well above grade.
2- Your well casing (or pitless adapter) is shot (corroded and now has holes in it) and water enters thru the side of it, probably somewhere near grade.
In any event, you shouldn't have to pay for the repairs if you recently purchased this home. Cost of repairs should fall on the seller. Please don't tell me this was a private deal under "as is" condition. Even if it was, I think you'd still have avenues open to you under local health codes.
It is also possible that you have a problem with the septic system and waste material is finding its way over toward the well and then being taken in by the "well plume". This is why no septic tank or lines from a drainfield are allowed to be within 50' of a well. Depending upon soil conditions that 50' could become 100' under local codes.
It IS NOT NORMAL OR ACCEPTABLE to have e-coli bacteria in a well. It is very dangerous and can be deadly. Fact is the sale of the property should not have been allowed unless the water test came back clean. Two tests? Wonder who's greasing who's hand here? First one comes back dirty, so let's try again. Are we playing best two out of three, er what? Shocking a well will not prevent the reestablishment of the bacteria once the shock treatment is concluded…… so long as the initial cause of contamination remains. If this was a health department official who told you this, he should be taken out back and……..
Tell ya what. Run a glass for him and tell him to "drink up".
Edit: David makes a good point. Well might be far too shallow.
Also possible for a two-pipe deep well jet pump to do this, if there's a hole in a pipe....... but I'd think you'd then always have "some" contamination present......rain or no rain.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/17/2005 7:09 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Two tests? Wonder who's greasing who's hand here? First one comes back dirty, so let's try again.
When moving here -Lake County, Ohio . near Cleveland, not rural at all - it took me awhile to accept that multiple well tests with an intervening chlorine treatment really made the well acceptable. Shallow wells let in surface contaminants, and the county health department checks for e coli. I was told it comes from animal sources. I've honestly never heard of anyone here having a serious illness as a result of their well water. E coli is a blanket term that encompassed different kinds of individual bacteria. Apparently those found in wells are not the deadly versions of e coli.
Edited 1/17/2005 7:33 pm ET by Cleveland_Ed
don't bet yur life on it...
you'll loose...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
don't bet yur life on it...
I did for ten years, as did the woman here before me for much longer.
Think back to the days before drilled wells. A lot of farms had hand dug wells. Maybe a 20 foot deep hole, lined with stone. Water seeps in, and it acts a bit like a tank. Surface contaminants seep in too. And i had not considered septic system infiltration in this thread. That wasn't an issue for me. If that proves to be the case I'd never use the well again.
ya have to build up an immunity early on in lfe fer some of that stuff...
in the early years people died young and sickness was a common fatal item...
yur well do as you wish...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
You wouldn't believe all the email I've gotten tonight from this thread.
saying what...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
There's coliform contamination, and then there's E. coli. Coliform usually means ground water contamination, such as run-off from leaves, and is an indicator that you may get E. coli contamination as well.
I'm with the others who say don't mess with E. coli. Yes. there are various 'species' of e. coli, but I wouldn't let my stomach be the one to figure out which was which.
Edited to say: Who's to know where the second sample came from? Was it the same well?? Or one they knew was clean? Get it checked out... E. coli can kill.
Your well should have a concrete casing which extends about 12" above ground to prevent ground-water contamination. Is required on new wells here.
Edited 1/17/2005 8:30 pm ET by martagon99
I hear ye……..but wouldn't really care to live with a well like that myself. Not in this day and age anyway. Agricultural pesticides and herbicides can contaminate wells many miles from the scene. And heavy metals (like arsenic) can be found in a lot of deep wells around the country. While testing for fecal coliforms is definitely a place to start, it doesn't tell the whole story of whether the water is really safe to drink. A coliform test only tells you if there are fecal coliforms present, but nothing about all the other stuff that's in there. A little sand or harmless dirt in potable water is one thing, but………spare me the invisible harmful stuff.The presence of e-coli bacteria is indicative of a dangerous water supply and it should not be consumed without first boiling it (rolling boil) for a minimum of 5 minutes. That's why cities issue boil-water orders when there's a break in a water supply line. And babies don't tolerate this stuff nearly as well as most adults. It is indeed potentially dangerous. I'm pretty sure that every state department of natural resources and health department will agree. (Well except maybe for that one JP has encountered) Bear in mind that I'm not the alarmist type, neither. I grew up with a well on a livestock farm. The water there is the best. It's where I fill my carboys when its time to make homebrew. And we have a well here which we chlorinate to aid in iron removal and which also binds up arsenic so it can be removed along with the iron at the sand filter unit. The side benefit of all this is that we don't have many bacteria concerns with our water. The arsenic "problem" came to our attention a couple years back when the EPA drastically reduced the allowable level. (from 50 PPB to 10 PPB) This well water was within guidelines for just about ever…… but then suddenly wasn't. Luckily this wasn't of any consequence to us because our potable water only contained 30% of the new allowable level ever since we moved here. This thanks to the chlorinator, the iron and the sand filter that I had installed. But not many of our neighbors were so equipped and then decided it was time to do something when they discovered what their arsenic levels were. Out of sight, out of mind……..for quite a while anyway. Then one day they decided to test and came to understand what they were drinking and the potentials of that. Most have followed suit by installing the necessary equipment to meet the new allowable limit. (Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion)Our water tests also show no nitrites or nitrates despite the fact that the entire surrounding area to this house and well is farm ground. That thanks to the deep well. As a rule, when local/county health boards run well water tests, they usually only test for coliforms because they're an indicator bacteria. If none are found, the water is determined/announced to be safe to drink. But that ain't necessarily so. Only a more extensive test can tell you what all is in there. An extensive lab test here runs a whopping $45. In my mind, it's worth that measly sum to know what I'm consuming. Don't care to wait until others (or me) start getting sick to figure out it may because of what we're drinking from these wells.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/17/2005 8:35 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
I was more than just very happy when a municipal water line was extended past my house. I bet you'd never have guessed that from my lackadaisical attitude in my earlier post. I lived with well water when I had to. I didn't like the idea of all of the contaminants.
Ed, Didn't really take your post as being all that lackadasical. Just not alarmist. And I'm not either. But I am more informed than I used to be about this stuff. Seems that lots of folks don't really understand that when they move to the country (or anywhere that they might have a private well) that they are now their own "water department". Not only is the equipment and maintenance theirs, but so is the safety and quality of the potable water they'll be consuming. It's another part of "independant" living that they may or may not be up to whenthe reality of it faces them. And the problems surrounding all this are complicated by the fact that the water supply ain't what it was was many years ago. Lots more ptotentially dangerous tuff in there with all the chemicals that are used to produce an abundant food supply. Much progress has been made in the last decade concerning those chemicals and the length of times in which they remain both viable for their intended task and the danger they pose to the water supply. Not near so dangerous as just a few years back, but..........there's still need for caution. And then there's the dangers of large livestock containment operations. Huge volumes of livestock waste that are often stored near the large water supplies that these operations require (which usually come from tapping large aquifers or setting up near a large source of groundwater) It's a recipe for disaster when stuff goes awry. And like any other human endeavor involving mechanical stuff, sooner or later it does. And then we got those cities that draw their water from a nearby lake.......and there's spills from the sewer system right into that water. Gives me the heebie-geebies just watching it on the tube. I personally don't have a fear of using the well water here, I just like to keep tabs on it. And I hates the taste of heavily chlorinated city water supplies. Yech. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
excellent postings sir...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Coming from you......that's definitely a compliment.Iffin' you was a little faster on the keyboard......there wouldn't have been anything left for me to say when I got here. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/18/2005 12:05 am ET by GOLDHILLER
Sorry, but, I shivered when I read your post!Talk to the people in Walkerton, Ontario, Canada.
7 People died as a result of e coli conaminated municipal well water. Many others were sick for months, and many more may never recover.
Dont take bacterial contamination lightly!
he still never said what his emails were...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
he still never said what his emails were...
I didn't word it too well. I made it sound too exciting. The emails were the automatic ones from Taunton when someone replies to a post.
septic was what 1st came to mind...
oh the horror of him reading that... tried to spare him...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
One thing I noticed was that the new well is next to the old well. The new well is a 4" casing and the old one is a big 2 foot concrete tube with a cap. I was wondering if the big well was maybe contributing to the problem. Also, the neighbors have cows and they are sometimes right next to the well. Rather, the cow pasture is within 3 feet of the well. Although the cows are only there one day a week I was wondering if this was a possible source for the bacteria.The septic system is in the back yard which slopes away from the well about 75 to 100 feet.Does a well driller have the equiptment to tell if the casing has holes or is there a way for me to find out?The e-coli thing kind of freaked me out at the closing as well. But when the closing agent said it was "normal" for wells to have several tests done before coming back clean. Since the state of Virginia only requires a clean test, the seller was following the letter of the law and providing just that. Even if it was clean for only 20 days.
Just capping an old well here does not meet the letter of the law….and for good reason. It can easily contribute to contamination of your new well. And it sounds like your old well is right in the new well's plume. That old casing has to be completely filled with designated materials in a designated order …and then capped off/sealed with concrete. This is not usually a DIY thing…..particularly if the well is deep. And some locales prohibit DIYing this job even if you wanted to because it must be done by certified personel. This is because an improperly filled and sealed abandoned well can contaminate your neighbor's well also…..or in a worse case scenario……the whole damn aquifer from which many wells draw. Your local well drillers should offer this service. Depending upon how deep your well is it could cost more than you think. I'd have them come look and give you a figure. Don't know if anyone has offered this yet, but you can likely determine how deep your well is by removing the cap from the well-head and lowering a string with a small heavy weight on it down in. You'll probably know when it hits bottom, but you could get fooled if the string hangs on the pump, a pipe, etc. If you know for sure you've reached bottom, then mark the string, pull it out and measure. This tells you how deep the well is, but it doesn't tell you how deep the pump is hung in the well. But that isn't a matter concerning contamination; it's a matter of supply…….so not really relevant to your current quest.Matter of fact, if this is a new well…….you can likely call all the local drilling services until you find the one that drilled your well and they'll have all that info on hand. Your local health board/department might have this info also. How much of a concern the grazing livestock is……is dependant upon how many for how long and how deep the well is…….and how long between rainfalls and how much it rains when it does………soil types involved, both at the surface and below. If it were mine…I'd sooner not see livestock plopping their calling cards so close to my plume. Not in any significant amount anyway.While it's nice to hear that your septic is that far from your well……….it doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't a problem. While the surface water may be running away from your well plume, the subsurface water could be running right toward it. You see, there could be a layer of clay or similar down there a couple feet under the surface which slopes toward the well. This is why soil probes are done before septic systems can be placed. You just can't see what goes on down there with your eyes. Wonder if this was done in this instance? Again, your local/county health department *should* know, one way or the other. You may or may not be able to find a corroded well casing yourself. Depends to some degree upon where the leak is. If your well isn't in a pit, but comes right up outta the ground in the yard, you could try by taking a spade and digging out around the well casing a bit for say a couple feet down. Rinse it off and see if you find anything…….and/or then place your head over the open casing and look in. Block off all the light around your head and you just might see the light entering from the outside. If this fails to find the culprit, I'd say get an experienced well driller in to have a look. Maybe he could have a look at the same time he comes to give you a figure on filling that old well casing ………or determining if it already is filled and sealed.Kinda starting to sound like you may even have multiple issues here. Drink beer for now. Lots of it. <G>Edit: Wow! Looks like you mighta found your guy while I was hammering away here. Save him some beer. Matter of fact, might wanna to stock up on the good stuff. I hear tell he can be plied with good brew. LOL Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/17/2005 9:25 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Yep Still here. Thank You! to everyone for all the advice and information.We are in the process of having a well driller look at the well to see if there are any problems with the casing or pump. Or if the well is deep enough.I'll post some pictures to help explain some of the issues that may be of concern.J.P.
I found the Virginia regulations for well abandonment. Unfortunately where I live in Albemarle County the well records only go back to 1992. This was when the Health Department began regulating well drilling and water supply. I thought that the old well may be contributing to the problem but the Health department doesn't have any records for this property so I am not sure when the new well was installed or if the old one was abandoned properly. For now I am going to wait amd let the driller try to determine what may be the problem. Since I am so unfamiliar with this type of work I am afraid I may end up mucking the system even more.J.P.
Do you have a "shallow well?"
Locally many wells here are only 15 to 25 feet deep. Going deeper would access things that make the water undrinkable. So they're getting surface type water. I was on a well like that for years. I wouldn't worry about the sediment intruding provided that this is nothing new. I'd chorinate regularly and drink bottled water in the rainy seasons.
I'm not sure of the depth but chlorination seemes a little extreme if I have to do it each time it rains. I have already looked into a treatment system but would prefer clean water if possible.I am totally new to this well system thing.Just trying to figure out what to expect. My biggest concern is a safe source of water for my family. Not to mention the re-sale value of the property if I choose to sell in the future.I can live with a little sediment but not bacteria.
J.P.
Since no one else said it, I'll add to contact your county health dept, they likely have an in-place testing program and history of the well or wells in your neighborhood that you can draw upon for information and expertise for precisely your area.
One possibility that is sometimes overlooked, depending on the layout of the area, is the wellhead getting physically flooded during a heavy rainfall.
Beyond that, if the well is fairly old, it's likely that the casing has rusted through in spots.
Another possibility, if the pipes enter the casing from below grade, is a leak where the pipe enters. Sounds like you're getting more leakage than that would account for, though.
Finally, while I'm certain you'd know this if it were the case, it's worth mentioning that you could have a cistern, not a well, with it being filled from the house gutters. Leaves in the gutters will produce the tea color.
It is not getting flooded over since the top is about 16" above grade.I thought that if it were a small leak the color change in the water would be nearly imperceptible.My water turned ####ruddy brown color that has now faded to a light tan, in the course of 4 days.It seems as if there were a large amount of dirt or dirty water that entered the system all at once.J.P.
My son had this problem with his well which was a very old and deep one.
The well guy told him that over the years sediment and mud had accumulated in the well above the level of the foot valve.
He solved the problem by simply raising the foot valve about ten feet.
This may or may not work in your case but you still need to have the water tested for safety.
I would ask around and get a local well guy to check it out.
Edited 1/17/2005 10:31 pm ET by ARROWSHOOTER
JP:
You've had a lot of good input here, and I'll add $.02 more.
It isn't normal for wells in good condition and installed properly to have e. coli or to need shocking on a continuous basis. I've owned two homes with wells in NJ. While it is possible you have ground water contamination, it is also possible that the brown water is a result of something less serious, although your positive e. coli test doesn't bode well!
For example, sometimes submersible pumps (which is what I assume you have, given the age of the well) can start banging on the sides of the well when they start and stop, causing dirt to come loose and muddy the water. There are supports installed on the plastic pipe every X amount of feet to prevent this, but sometimes more are needed or they break off. Look in your toilet tank for a bunch of dirt to help diagnose this. A well company will pull the pump up to check for issues like this. Sometimes you just need to raise or lower the pump to an area that is more solid.
Sometimes the aquifer itself can become muddy, depending on conditions like rain, size of the aquifer, or man-made problems somewhere else in town.
Filters can be installed, but they are a pain to maintain and they can clog quickly sometimes. The ultraviolet lights work well, but they must also be monitored because they need maintenance annually or so.
If you look at the electric supply to your submersible pump, you might get an idea of the well depth. If the supply is 220v, you likely have a depth of over 150 feet or so. 100v pumps are not typically installed over that depth.
Anyway--my advice is to find the oldest well drilling company in town and let them do their thing. Repairs always seem to cost about $2000.00 I've noticed! Still, clean water is worth it. I actually prefer wells over town water once they are installed correctly.
J. Painter
stage yur filters...
start with a solids seperator... go to 20 micron, then 5 micron for the GP and then a 2 for the drinking taps...
make sure all have reverse flush capibilities...
not nearly the filter changing...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Imerc:
LOL! Well, I've taken a different route in my house--I don't have any filters at all. So far my own digestive tract has been able to do all the filtering on its own! :-o
Actually my area is blessed with very good water. Only very rarely do we see any collection of dirt in the toilet tanks. I should really get an ultraviolet filter, though, since I'm lazy about having the water tested. I once got giardia from water and it was the worst week of my life. I lost over ten percent of my body weight that was coming out both ends. After testing, it turned out that my well was fine but the town water I was drinking at work had some "issues" with treatment from their resevoir.
J Painter
maybe they mixed in or were processing the towns gray water...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
ya know...
that old casing may be breaking down and leaching into yur new well...
when it rains the surface water wicks down the outside of the old casing carring rust and other assorted with it into yur new well...
it you haven't a toxic problem filtering will clean it up...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Thats kind of what I thought. I was hoping the health department would have some records but they don't. Before we wen't to closing I expressed my concern about the possible contamination of e-coli due to surface water coming through the old well.J.P.
Here are some photos that help to explain the situation.Photo 1 shows the new well and its relationship to the pasture about 3 feet away.Photo 2 is the proximity of the old well to the new well. It is about 25 ft. away.Photo 3 is under the concrete lid of the old well which helps to explain alot. I didn't notice the watermark until I downloaded the photo since it was dark when I took the picture. But it appeard as if the old well pit is getting flooded.Photo 4 is the hole for the water line and electrical wire. Possible source of water infiltration?Photo 5 is the huge spider keeping sentry over the slugs in the pit. I don't know why, but this place has tons of spiders. Thanks again for all the help. I'll let you all know what happens.J.P.
#3... is that standing water in that pipe..
if it is that may be the source of your problem...
#4... yes and it looks like that has been happening
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
No standing water, it is just the wet clay.The hole is still rather damp so it appears as if the water has recently gone away since it rained last thursday.J.P.
hunch says you found yur problem...
now fer the cure...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
More Beer.If I keep the bacteria drunk and happy maybe they will leave me alone.J.P.
Jp:
Huh. Well, the old well pit having some water in it isn't a problem, assuming that the casing inside the pit is capped off properly and that the casing isn't damaged below the surface. In my old house we would need to pump out the water from the pit before we could even see the cap. The cap should be air and water tight.
I'm going to guess that-- if your old well checks out okay --the reason for the sediment is related to an overwhelmed aquifer or that your pump is located a little too deep and needs to be pulled up ten feet. The fact that you have a 220 line shows that the well is likely pretty deep and you likely have a decent pump.
As for the e. coli -- it could be totally unrelated. In fact, it is even possible that the water sample was not collected properly and you had a false positive. Do a few more tests to put your mind at ease if nothing obvious turns up. Like anything, once you understand the workings of a system you feel more comfortable with it. Keep the faith and let us all know what happens!
J Painter
Hopefully the pump is too low. I should hopefully have an answer by Friday.After I saw the photo from the pit it looked like water was getting in and out. I guess the real question is, is this the cause? I'm going to ask the well driller to see if the well has been abandoned properly in order to try to rule out the possibility of this beind the source of the problem.When I spoke to the engineer who did the test he said that the test was absolutlely positive for e-coli then explained where it comes from. A false positive can happen but he was quite certain that the water was collected properly and the test was accurate.J.P.
J. Painter
We do have some sediment in the toilet tank but this is the first time we had sediment in the water. Of course we have only been here a week and a half, but it happened right after a big rain storm. And there was quit a significant change in the color of the water. My wife flushed the toilet and when it was filling it was about half full when it looked like someone had just dumped a bucket of mud in the pot.We have a 220v 10ga pump wire but I can't be sure of the pump until it is pulled.I am well aware of the environmental conditions that can cause discoloration, but the presence of e-coli is what is my major concern.J.P.
It sounds like you were sold a house with a problem that was not disclosed to you at time of purchase. I would call the agent who sold the house and explain your situation.
Once we get some more information from a well driller we are going to be contacting the realtor. So far the County has nothing so I am hoping that the driller will shed some light on the problem.J.P.
are you still with us..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
From The Simpson's Homerpalooza:
Billy:"Hey Homer, looks like our next stop is your hometown, Springfield!"
D'arcy:"Is it true that we have to bring our own water?"
Homer:"We got a little rule back home: if it's brown, drink it down; if it's black, send it back."