How elaborate would a wood shop have to be to build your own double hung windows?
I’m thinking of setting up a nice workshop and rebuilding all the windows in my school project. I have a couple of old original sashes available to copy. There is still one original window left over from 1926, the year that they built this building.
I need to make about 162 windows so I think I could afford to invest a couple of bucks into the equipment. I’ll also have about 5000 sf of work shop to work with but a portion of that will get some mechanical banks of meters and pipe running through it.
I’m thinking if Jim Blodgett can build them…I can. I’m pretty sure the first few of mine wont open but I have a fire bucket for the prototypes.
blue
Replies
I can build raised panel wainscoting with just the standard site tools.
I'm guessing you could do windows sith the same tools.
My list for wainscoting day:
For DH windows I wouldnt think you'd need much else.
All my stuff is of the portable type (ie 13" DW planer) so I can set my shop up anywhere in about a 1/2 hour.
Edited 12/10/2006 9:26 pm ET by MSA1
Thanks Mark. I'm thinking I'd need a ventilation system too.
blue
I forgot to ask: hows your northern michigan project going? Did you start anything yet or are you waiting till you finish that Ferndale thing?
Hows the back? I'm going to get my records from Dr Herman sent up to Oscoda to a young new female Chiro.
blue
I got a start up there. Last week I got a 30 yd dumpster and pretty much filled it with just the first floor debris. This was all building materials the place was empty. I've found alot of craftsman style features behind the paneling and get a little more inspiration with every hole I knock in the wall. I think i'm going back up this wednesday to grab one of the refrigerators from there (ones like new) and maybe do a little more demo.
Ferndale's almost done. We spent today painting and will have a bathroom and kitchen by friday. We should have no problem getting the place ready to rent by christmas, then once the refi goes through I plan to slam on the Onaway house.
The back is consistently inconsistent. I was at the chiro on saturday and mentioned that my calf has started to tighten up. Turns out thats bad, he thinks that means the fragment is going the wrong way. I can still walk and work okay but (maybe because of the cold) mornings are starting to get a little rough again.
Kinda cool how they can manipulate the back. When I explained about how the pain moved in my leg they dropped me back on the table and applied pressure to the sacrum(tail bone area).
I could feel the pain move up my calf through my thigh and go away. When I got up I could feel the pain slowly work its way back down to the calf again. Felt strange.
How far is your project from 33? I get off 75 at exit 202 and run 33 all the way up. I wouldnt mind seeing your project if schedules ever line up.
Mark, Im on the coast of Lake Huron in Oscoda. I normally take the US 23 split near Standish. It would be out of your way, but not by too much. I'll be around on Wednesday if you want to meet.
blue
Hey Jim,
Turns out this will be a quick trip and you're a little too far out of the way. I think i'll be back up around the holidays and if I spend the night, i'll have more time and will stop in.
Mark
Mark, if you are in Austin, TX over the holidays, stop in LOL.
I'll be in TX but the school will still be there in Oscoda. Feel free to take a few desks LOL!
blue
Blue,
you could totally do this.. you will need a few things to make it go smoothly.
1. shaper, dont play around with a router table. you can get a shaper that will accecpt router bits so it becomes very versitile.
2. sash bits, amana makes a set that goes for @150$
3. mortier ( dedicated is better ). this is good if you want to do the job right.. I would cheat and use a floating tennon and peg it on both legs.
4. thickness planer ( if you can get your stock in the dementions you need more power to you )
5. dust collection
6. Glass cutter
7. a belt sheet sander would be really nice for a job this size.
I bet you could buy all the eqipment for this job for under 5k.. If you really looked about you could do it for under 3.
this assumes you alredy have general carp tools like chop saw, table saw etc.
james
this assumes you alredy have general carp tools like chop saw, table saw etc.
Bad assuption. I can't even claim to own a decent power saw!
I'm pretty much running on empty. I wouldn't want to set up a nice shop with anything I own except perhaps my whetstone and box that I made for it thirty years ago.
blue
I built a duplex worth of historic double hung windows for a project, the only new investment we made for the shop was a shaper.
Our shop at the time was small, and had all the basic stuff :
Jet cabinet/ table saw
Jet Drill Press
Jet Bandsaw
Jet edge, disc and spindle sanders
Hitachi Thickness planer & Jointer (it's a beast)
Dust collection system.
Clamps....
I made a series of jigs for the Muntins. That was probably the hardest part of the process. The rest was custom shaper bits that pretty much cut every profile, stick and cope you need.
With good planning it's relatively easy. I learned that the hard way. Planning is key for production.
"I'm thinking if Jim Blodgett can build them...I can."
Fact is, if I can build them, ANYONE can build them. That's exactly the message I try to communicate in everything I write.
Romania wasn't built in a day.
Fact is, if I can build them, ANYONE can build them.
Gee whiz, Jim, you're such an egomaniac! lol
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Blue
I worked at a shop down in Austin TX that built all the double hungs for two court houses. Somewhere over 150 sashes.
Your certainly capable of doing this.
I'd recomend a shaper and get the knives cut for your profile, they'll do you a better job then the router bits, Those are fine if your making 20 sashes but you arnt so get the right tool for the job.
You can get a decent Grizzly shaper without breaking the bank, you dont need anything to fancy, hell the shop that I worked at had the most broken down equipment in all of Austin and we were putting out some damn nice work.
ONe other thing, get a cheap Griz feeder, best money you'll spend, also saves the fingers!
You can hook up a cheap dust collector to the shaper for 4-600 bucks and when your done you'll recoup some of the money if you chose to sell, same for the shaper.
You'll need a good chop saw. Probably a planner and a jointer if you want to save on the lumber that you chose to buy.
I'd guess you could set up shop for $5K, give or take a grand. And if you didnt want to keep the equipment you could unload it for more then 1/2 the inital cost.
I would guess that if you just ran cope and stick wood through the shapper you could cut everything you need for your 162 windows in under a week or two. Of course assembly will take a bit longer!
You can make these window double pane if you chose, makes for a better window.
I'm going to set up this winter to build all the replacement windows for a large historic house here where I live, dont figure it will take over a week or two to do the entire job, and these are true 9 over 6's.
Doug
I'd bet you could spend a few hours on the net... and find a supplier in south america... with a few emails and faxes and a LOC your windows would be built and on their way to you for less than you could buy the wood you'd use to build em yourself and in less time than you could find equipment and set up your "shop".... and might as well tell them to find an older container to ship em in because you'll be wanting to keep it... now you have em secure on your jobsite in a 40ft container that you now own... might have to ship them knocked down to the sash and frames to fit em in one container....
thats all i'd want to learn about building 162 windows
p
Agree completely. Blue, I thought you were becoming a developer, a shot caller, a money man and a deal maker, a guy with realtors and lawyers on speed dial. To set up shop and make 162 windows you'll have to be a shop rat instead. I can get you the names of 10 guys who will make those for you.
David, I wasn't exactly thinking I'd be the guy running the shop. I'm just trying to figure out the best way to go about this if I decide to put authentic windows in and take out the current group of terratone windows.
Ponytis idea gives me another option that I may very well seek out but I'll have a lot of custom milling to do with all of the other trim in the building. I'm thinking that if I set up a decent shop early on in the game, I'll have the maximum control of each situation as it comes up.
Finding a decent mill guy in the area is also another great option. So far, none have materialized.
blue
I wonder if you might have to look as far as Chicago. When I lived in the Bay Area, with all the old Victorian restorations we did there, the market has several good sash and door shops. They have a table saw, a chop saw, a couple of shapers with power feeders (one for cope, one for stick), a widebelt sander, and a wholesale account with a glass supplier. Sometimes they're set up for insulated glass AND single pane and then have four shapers. Sometimes they're set up for mortise and tenon and have some expensive and dedicated gear for that (not one of these toy Delta tabletop or drill-press-attachment deals). And a big pile of 8/4 VG fir. I had many occasions to buy replacement sash for double hung windows, complete with rope holes and plows on the sides.
Sounds like you might be talking about making the jambs and sills too. That's pretty straightforward.
I think if you get into it you need to find a really good millwork shop guy, someone who can set up shapers and cut down huge piles of expensive lumber without making a mess. Some of the gear might need 3-phase.
There must be good mill shops in the midwest. Where are the expensive older homes that are being restored? Traverse City? Ann Arbor? Minneapolis?
A very smart guy that I know owns this outfit:
http://www.woodenwindow.com
I think if you get into it you need to find a really good millwork shop guy,
That's exactly what I was thinking. I might like to apprentice under one and ride this ship into the sunset.
blue
I guess you want to do wood for aesthetic reasons. Have you considered that on the brick building, the windows will be a maintenance issue as far as repainting? I know there are many solutions available in vinyl, vynil-coated wood, and anodized Al for historical buildings. I am referring to windows that are architecturally correct and hard to tell from the original.
A web search should give you multiple sources.
I don't like vinyl on residential construction. On a school building, it might be a good choice.
Blue,
Is the building historically significant enough to warrant custom wood windows?
If so, will you be taking steps to include insulated glass?
If not, there is a huge drawback in the efficiency of old-fashioned single-paned windows... the only reason they are still used is for historic reasons but the tradeoff in efficiency is an additional price worth paying in certain applications.
Is any of this a cost conscious effort? If so, i wouldn't think that you would realize much savings in the end for a product that isn't entirely necessary for the application.
Maybe you have bigger plans for that old school building than I think but old school buildings after their transformation tend to still look like old school buildings.
BTW, I was just through MI to a Taylor and Waterford during the blizzard a week and half ago.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Is the building historically significant enough to warrant custom wood windows
It depends. To the people of this town, it's more historic than I could explain. To an empty nester buying a retirement condo. NO.
I wasn't planning on doing a historic renovation, with single pane glass just to be old. I was just trying to find out which method of replacing the windows might be best. I'm just seeking out the best value.
So far, I've heard $500-600 plus 24 hours of sweat equity. I'm not signing up for that contract just yet!
I might not have to change any of the windows. I'm searching for a window mechanic that can give me a price on getting the existing windows to operate at some reasonable standard. Right now, only Superman can get them to operate.
I have ruled out casements. I can't really say whats going to happen because a lot of these decisions will be made in conjunction with the architects wishes/needs.
blue
Blue,
There is a good millwork company, on the Door Peninsula, in Wis. Name is Tom's Quality Millwork. I think tqmillwork.com. They're state of the art, and have custom knife grinding, in house, I believe. Check them out.Brudogie
I haven't read through every message, so forgive me if I'm repeating.
But you haven't mentioned finishing. In the long run, that is the most important issue for maintaining the windows.
So I don't know if you are thinking of including a spray booth in the shop, or sending them out after you build them.
But get the absolute best most UV resistant finish you can. And spray results in a nicer look, IMO.
And pick your wood carefully. You might want to look into some salvaged old growth timber, with tight grain.
To everyone,
A couple of general questions.
1. Can a guy build his windows with double pane glass and get any kind of seal to avoid moisture from collecting between the glass? Or if you decide to build your own windows are you limited to single pane windows?
I ask this question as I have been considering adding a couple of custom sized window to my entryway. Then would be fixed windows which should make it easier, but the double pane deal has me concerned.
2. If you build your own double hungs is it tricky to build them such that they slide just right? Not to loose as to be drafty and not to tight as to swell shut? Sure, if a factory can do it an individual can do it . . . but?
You can order insulated glass units from a glass shop. If you build traditional wooden double hungs with the usual parting bead and stops they will be somewhat drafty. I have not tried to weatherstrip such a window comprehensively, but I'm sure there are ways.
I worked with a carpenter that built his own triple pane windows. I saw the stack of doorwall glass as high as a table. Later I saw his thermo pane glass units installed. I like his product better than any Pella or Marvin stuff.
I know Jim Blodget could build a better unit than Pella or Marvin.
In his sleep.
blue
Coming from someone who is just finishing up completely redoing 24 DH 13 over 1 windows in his house, let me start off by saying that in old-fashioned historical windows, the work is NOT in the woodwork (which I consider to be fun). All of your labor will be in the glazing (which is most certainly NOT fun). Cutting glass, glazing, painting, scraping, installing, and weatherstripping takes 10 times longer than the woodwork component of the project. Be warned.It is averaging 24 hours per window to remove sashes, remove glass, clean glass, install glass in new sash, glaze, scrape and prep jambs and interior trim, prime sashes, glazing, and jambs, paint 2 coats on sashes glazing and trim, install sashes with new chain, install spring bronze weatherstrip on bottom sash, install PVC "L" weatherstrip at top sash, nail up beads and stops, fill holes, sand and prime and paint and touch up, and install sash locks and stops. Please note that I orded my sashes from a shop, so that time doesn't even include the wood work.I used Adams Architectural (google will find them) up in NE Iowa to make my sashes and they did a fantastic job for reasonable prices. Quality outfit.Also know that even though this job is taking FOREVER, it is well worth it. My windows go up and down at the touch of a finger, glide like butter, lock up tight, and are VERY VERY airtight. I have old fashioned wood storm sashes weatherstripped to the exterior window casing and those combines with full weatherstripped DH sashes has absolutely stopped all drafts around my windows.Please always keep in mind that wood storm windows were always intended to be the primary barrier against winter time air infiltration on old-fashinioned DH windows. The primaries, with the inherent gaps due to their sliding operations will always leak a bit of air. Weatherstripping certainly helps. These windows, however, are a SYSTEM and when the entire system is in place, they work FANTASTIC.I brought my windows in and completed for probably $400-500 per window not including (a lot of) sweat equity. I have no question that they are MUCH BETTER in all aspects (looks, historical accuracy, thermal performance, durability) than the True-Divided-Lite Marvin insulated glass sash packs that estimated out for $1200 per window.
Rasher, your information is much appreciated. The 24 hours per unit includes everything?
What does 13 over one mean?
blue
It is averaging 24 hours per window to remove sashes, remove glass, clean glass, install glass in new sash, glaze, scrape and prep jambs and interior trim, prime sashes, glazing, and jambs, paint 2 coats on sashes glazing and trim, install sashes with new chain, install spring bronze weatherstrip on bottom sash, install PVC "L" weatherstrip at top sash, nail up beads and stops, fill holes, sand and prime and paint and touch up, and install sash locks and stops.
Wow. That's a really long time. Might you be doing it "the hard way"?
FWIW, to restore a wood double hung window and storm window - remove sash and storm window, deglaze, strip, scrape, prime, reglaze, reprime, paint with 2 coats, install sashes, install storm window - takes me about 6 to 8 hours of working time.
You mentioned scraping paint - maybe that is a lot of your time expenditure? Steam works much quicker and better.
Please always keep in mind that wood storm windows were always intended to be the primary barrier against winter time air infiltration on old-fashinioned DH windows. The primaries, with the inherent gaps due to their sliding operations will always leak a bit of air. Weatherstripping certainly helps. These windows, however, are a SYSTEM and when the entire system is in place, they work FANTASTIC.
Um, this is a little concerning. Storm windows are NOT intended to be an air infiltration barrier - their purpose is to keep out rain and snow. If there is not fairly free air movement between the storm window and the double hung window, they tend to rot. Counterintuitively, studies have confirmed that they are more energy efficient with some air flow than without. That's one reason why original wood windows were rarely weatherstripped in historic buildings.
A great source of information on wood windows is the historic homeworks site, run by John Leeke. He has forgotten more about wood windows than I will ever know. He is pretty much the wood window expert.
Edited 12/12/2006 3:25 pm ET by woodturner9
I weatherstripped the top and sides of my storms, leaving the bottoms free. The closed-cell pvc (I think) WS was about 1/8" or 3/16" thick, so that is the gap at the bottom of my storms. I think this will allow moisture to escape. I take them off every year and inspect, and there's been no visible deterioration in two years.
In the dead coldest days of winter, I've started laying a line of rope caulk down over this gap which I'll pull up when it warms up again.Am I doing it the hard way? Oh yes, definitely. Our house has an extraordinary amount of old paint on everything. It is truly amazing how thick it is. I am not exaggerating when I say that I've scraped off paint 1/8" and even 3/16" thick on portions of the exterior of my house. I use a good hot air gun and a combination of carbide flat and steel profile scrapers. We have some pretty intricate trim profiles that require care with the scrapers. I've tried all sorts of strippers and techniques and just can't get a technique that I feel comfortable with. There is quite a bit of filling that need to be done, with 100+ years of nail and screw holes, dents, and gouges, etc.Persuading the wifey to do her share probably counts for 1-2 hours per window.Some day, really soon, we'll have a house full of nice new old windows that work great, look great, and didn't cost us much $$$ at all. The time spent was time we spent working together and the miseries will be forgotten. And I'll go to bed at night happy, knowing that I will never ever ever have to do this project ever again for the rest of my life.
I am not exaggerating when I say that I've scraped off paint 1/8" and even 3/16" thick on portions of the exterior of my house.
Got me beat there - mine's only 1/8" or so.
I use a good hot air gun and a combination of carbide flat and steel profile scrapers.
Try steam if you ever have to do this again - peels the paint right off. Tried it once and never went back to the heat gun.
Persuading the wifey to do her share probably counts for 1-2 hours per window.
Uh, got any tips on that? You are doing better than I am ;-)
I will never ever ever have to do this project ever again for the rest of my life.
Might want to keep the wife away from the real estate ads :-)
No need to keep sweetheart away from the ads. Because I'm such a slave driver, and making her do her share (it is her name on deed and not mine...), she never wants to do this again either.
The next house we buy will be new.Which gets to my renovation rant: It's not the painting and caulking and cutting and glueing and installing that I have a problem with. It's the demolition, the scraping, the repairing, the filling, the patching, and the uncovering-even-bigger-problems-than-you'd-ever-feared that bums me out about working on houses. So I suppose DW and I will be building our next house from scratch...
Try steam if you ever have to do this again - peels the paint right off. Tried it once and never went back to the heat gun.
Does steam ruin interior trim? I've got paint over some old growth oak. I'm certain the oak is varnished.
Does steam take off varnish?
blue
Does steam ruin interior trim? I've got paint over some old growth oak. I'm certain the oak is varnished.
Does steam take off varnish?
Yes, steam will take off both paint and varnish. Done properly, it does not harm the wood. You may need to sand a bit to "defuzz", but as long as you don't scrape agressively the wood is not damaged.
There is a lot more information on the historic homeworks site.
Someone mentioned looking for a wood window mechanic - some of those folks also list their info on the historic homeworks site.
"...ride this ship into the sunset"A cousin of mine did just that: http://www.woodstone.com/but, his ain't cheap...given your penchant for "systems," I'd say it would be a piece of cake for you...and the fact that you're going to need a small shop on site for the rest of the renovation, anyway...<G> Only thing I'd add to the tools would be a 3 headed shaper...speeds things up way more than triple time.The glazing may be the deciding factor, my cousin ended up buying a glass factory<G> Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."
The glazing may be the deciding factor, my cousin ended up buying a glass factory<G>
I was thinking I'd just recycle the existing insulated glass.
blue
I was thinking I'd just recycle the existing insulated glass.If you recycle, are you going to be able to get the original, historical look? Do you have any pics of the originals?What's wrong with the windows as they are? Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God says, "Out on Highway 61."
If you recycle, are you going to be able to get the original, historical look? Do you have any pics of the originals?
What's wrong with the windows as they are?
I don't think I'm going to get the historical look if I recycle. I might get close though.
The windows are large and heavy. So far, without any effort at cleaning and tweaking them, I'm having a very hard time getting them to open. At this point I don't know what I'm going to do, I'm just starting to explore some options.
blue
If you have insulated glass units (the two panes of glass are butyl caulked together around an aluminum spacer), you should know that they are considered to have a finite lifespan of 15 or 20 years, if I recall correctly. After that, the chances are good that they will develop a leak, and once moist air gets in, condensation becomes a problem, especially in climates like yours.
So keep an eye out for condensation in between the panes this winter- if more than a couple windows have it, you won't want to be building new sashes around those IG units.
There's also the benefit of low-e glass when you buy new glass. I don't know what your cost/benefit is on that, but new low-e units seem pretty cheap for what you get, all considered.
If it were me, I would think about how I could buy functional but not fancy windows (vinyl or aluminum), and trim them out with enough nice wood to make them look right for the building. But I'm sure you'll figure something good out.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
If it were me, I would think about how I could buy functional but not fancy windows (vinyl or aluminum), and trim them out with enough nice wood to make them look right for the building. But I'm sure you'll figure something good out
I'm a vinyl window lover. I like how easy they ride up and down, sideways etc. I'm not particularly fond of vinyl casements though.
This isn't a casement style job, unless we re invent the exterior, which we probably will do.
Heres a shot of the windows.
blue
A pair of sash to make a double hung window consists of 8 sash pieces, each one different than the other. Major amounts of work and machinery. Not to mention needing lots of Clear 8/4 white pine stock.
There is "Salb Sash & Door" in Chicage were I used to order sash parts or complete sashes shipped in a knocked down condition. I would assemble, glaze and install.
Salb will sell individual pieces, long stock pieces, or custom as needed.
Pick up the phone and check it out....312-247-7255.
.................Iron Helix
> This isn't a casement style job, unless we re invent the exterior, which we probably will do.
Good! If this is going to be condos, it really needs to look more warm and homey, and less institutional.
-- J.S.
Good! If this is going to be condos, it really needs to look more warm and homey, and less institutional
That might a good observation or a bad one, depending on who's going to buy the units. If the locals step up and buy them, I won't need to de-institutionalize the building: they love it as it is. If I'm going to market to downstate empty nesters, I'll have to do a makeover.
We'll be agonizing over this decision very soon.
blue
"You can order insulated glass units from a glass shop. If you build traditional wooden double hungs with the usual parting bead and stops they will be somewhat drafty. I have not tried to weatherstrip such a window comprehensively, but I'm sure there are ways."I haven't seen a good one yet...don't think either spring bronze or silicone bulbs are viableMy old home, the traditional double-hungs have metal interlocks at the meeting rails, and ribbed metal all the way around the jambs mating with a kerf in the sashes....I don't know if you can still get the materials from Blaine or else-where, and I don't think it would be cheap to either get or apply...And we haven't even talked about counterweights yet...Don't get me wrong, I like these old windows, and with the addition of good triple-track storms I think they are reasonable energy efficient, but all in all, I think Blue would be nuts to pursue this..
The big problem with weatherstripping double hungs is that the pressure on the seal has to be low enough that you can slide the sash. You have the width of contact times twice the height of the sash in area, and even with a low coefficient of friction, you can't have a whole lot of pounds per square inch.
Casements, otoh, let you use a latch with some mechanical advantage to compress the weatherstripping. That makes it much easier to get a good seal.
-- J.S.
By nature, spring bronze weatherstrip works by applying a bit of pressure to the sides of my sliding sashes. When wind blows from the outside, it helps to actually press the weatherstip into the sash even tighter. A bonus with the spring bronze is that it holds the sash in place real nice with no jiggling in the frame and because its a different materials than the wood, there is no sticking between the side of the sash and the bronze.I believe my windows are VERY airtight. Once again, the primary barrier to air infiltration is not the double-hung "primaries", but the well weatherstripped wood storm sash.13 over 1: Means my upper sash has a "prairie" style muntin pattern that cuts the glass area up into 13 pieces. The corner pieces are 4" x 4" and the rest go from there. These small pieces make glazing VERY fiddly and tricky.
I agree, however, that with this particular condo project, that historic reproduction windows are not feasible. I mean, most condo buyers have no clue. Might as well put in some cheap-a$$ vinyl.
However, with my 130 year old house, my windows have been a labor of love and I am extremely pleased with the outcome. People who bitch about old methods of home construction, I think, are actually bitching about 100 years of subsequent poor-quality or inappropriate modifications. The more I restore my house back to original conditions, the better it performs.
When I first installed the wood storms two years ago, it cut my winter gas bill by 40% instantly.
By the way, from my experience, if you do not have the original sash pulleys and weights, and you do not have relatively square and rot-free window frames, then my method will not be cost effective for you. Sash weights and pulleys are VERY expensive.Also, for anyone reading this thread in the future: ALWAYS ALWAYS replace your ropes with chains. Yes, it costs 10 times as much, but that still less than $10 per window. You will never have to worry about broken ropes ever again.
At the risk of droning on...I was able to reuse 90% of my thick, 100+ year old wavy float glass, and so that helps everything look real nice. No low-E for me. I do believe that there are films you can apply that will help, and I am especially concerned with the UV and what it does to dyed fabric, but I won't be messing with that this year...24 hours per window included pretty much everything. This estimate is also a rough guess, as I've only been able to work sporadically on evenings and weekends. If I was going to do this for someone else (god forbid!) I would bid out my time at 24 hours per each window. It would cost a FORTUNE! Materials, on the other hand, are not much at all...However, and I can't prove it yet, because the DW and I are just finishing up and haven't had many guests over to see, I DO believe that people will be very impressed with these windows. I have had thoughts and schemes about a little business, but I just don't know if I could face a lot more of this torture. Glazing is perhaps the second-least-favorite task I have ever done. (Scraping 120 years of paint off of cedar shingle gable ends and crown molding on my soffits is number 1...)
Glazing is perhaps the second-least-favorite task I have ever done.
Meaning actually putting the glass in or applying the putty?
I had a lot of troble with putty until I found a good putty (Glazol). DAP33 is not good stuff - hard to use, takes too long to dry.
As a reference point, on my third window I was getting good results on the putty tooling and spending 10 minutes or so per window. John has a good video on his site that I found very helpful.
Of course, it sounds like you are done now, so maybe you would rather not recall the misery ;-)
Yeah, I agree with you about the Glazol. Or rather, the wifey discovered that Glazol was much MUCH easier to work than Dap 33.She ended up being the glazier and has gotten to be quite good and fairly quick. I can't say I was ever able to get a tight corner. Ever.Dries and ready to paint in less than a week. For you all out there getting ready to do your own... use Glazol. Added bonus: does not need to be primed. This was important to us because it cut out quite a bit of time. Our process involved pre-priming the sashes BEFORE bedding and glazing the glass. Since we didn't have to reprime over the Glazol, we were able to go to paint as soon as the glazing was dry enough to take it.
Accurate metal weatherstripping is one place,
http://www.weatherstrip.thomasregister.com/
Kilian Hardware was where we ended up buying all of our chain and weatherstrip. Great selection, great service.
http://www.kilianhardware.com
If you build your own double hungs is it tricky to build them such that they slide just right? Not to loose as to be drafty and not to tight as to swell shut? Sure, if a factory can do it an individual can do it . . . but?
DoRight, it wasn't until this generation that carpenters didn't build EVERY window on the site. My carpenter books that I apprenticed with shows the hows and methods of building double hung windows. I'm sure they built them back then with handtools too!
I'm sure if I reverse engineer the windows that I have, I'll be able to duplicate them without any trouble...if I can find a guy that knows how to set up the tools!
I'm good at sweeping the shop.
blue
Built them by hand? Sure they did! The question was how do you get double paned glass? If my memory serves those hand built units at the turn of the century you mentioned were lacking double glass.
Pella doesn't, or didn't use thermal vacumn double paned glass. They are two separate panes. The inside pane has a small breather hole in it to vent moisture.
If Pella can do it, so can you.
blue
Pella doesn't, or didn't use thermal vacumn double paned glass. They are two separate panes. The inside pane has a small breather hole in it to vent moisture.
Can you buy single glass with low e coating? It's the one feature of windows that you really don't want to bypass. Not having to replace leaky insulated lites in a few years would be preferable.
I ran into some Andersons that don't allow lite replacement, only sash replacement. Nothing I'd plan for myself.
Doing the millwork doesn't require a highly accomplished shaper guy, just competent. The folks supplying the cutters will help you out with fit, tighter or looser, if you need help. Other than the shaper setups, it's all very simple.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Can you buy single glass with low e coating?
Yes.
Pella sells single pane inserts and they have low e.
How important is low e? Please explain.
blue
How important is low e? Please explain.
Now is industry standard, for one thing.
Low e coatings, and they aren't all the same, primarily reflect infrared radiation. Decreases heat loss/gain about 50% by reflecting 60-95% of the radiant heat. Helps to protect interior surfaces from ultraviolet degradation (about 1/3 lower transmission). General transmittance is 5-10% lower.
Cold windows, more than cold walls, make people feel cold, drafts. Low e reduces that by reducing radiant loss. Makes a several degree air temp comfort difference to occupants.
Pellas with the small vents worked pretty well, until an ignorant painter comes along and caulks the holes closed. Their ventilation system wasn't 100% effective at eliminating condensation here, but was pretty close. Manufacturing their inside panel with its fasteners wouldn't be an easy task for a small millworks.
When you have vents, pane removal is required for cleaning. For your proposed facility that likely means building a substantial wooden frame, clunky at best. Purchase from Pella, if possible, would be better. I'd want the inserts on hand before I built the windows.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
A little hole is enough to prevent mositure condensation between the glass sheets?
Hard to believe.
A little hole is enough to prevent mositure condensation between the glass sheets?
I haven't thought about this for about ten years, but I think I remember some vents built into the wood sash too.
blue
"Pella doesn't, or didn't use thermal vacumn double paned glass. They are two separate panes. The inside pane has a small breather hole in it to vent moisture."When was that?Mine are sealed (79), worked on another home build around 85 that where sealed. My negihbors have some new ones that are sealed.Now Pella does make dooors (and maybe windows) with behind the glass blinds. The ones that I have seen have 3 pains. Sealed insulated glass on the outside and a removeable pain on the inside.Now for those that suggested historically accurate windows I don't see anything in this job where they would be an advantage.And for using storm windows with single pain glass. LOOK AT THE MARKET. THESE ARE CONDOS. MANY CONDO BUYERS WANT TO MESS WITH STORM WINDOWS..
.
Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
When was that?
The two houses I've worked on here with those Pella vented windows are 17 and 22 yrs old, both large. Neither low e. Very well built windows. At the time, almost nobody here bothered with low e.
LOOK AT THE MARKET. THESE ARE CONDOS. MANY CONDO BUYERS WANT TO MESS WITH STORM WINDOWS.
Pretty sure you intended to start that last sentence with "Not". I'm quite certain that would be correct. That's what those Pellas were, inside storms. Made window cleaning considerably more expensive. Sure had nice latches.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
By the way, on my window project, I used single glass. The storm windows provide the second pane of glass, and since both the primaries and the storms are relatively airtight, there is about 2 1/2" of air space in my "insulated" windows.
A couple of nights ago when it was colder than balls, the inside face of one of my finished primary window (with storm window attached) was SIGNIFICANTLY warmer than the inside face of an old primary window with no storm attached. Also significantly less drafty.
I would say that instead of going to the time and expense and hassle of trying to retrofit insulated glass into old-style sashes, you spend your money on good tight storm windows and you'll be in better shape...
I suppose, but that sure is a pain in the buttt. Put them up, take them down, store them, wash them, and wash them again. I remember the routine as a kid. Not fondly at that.
Sub it out.Add $100.00 plus install per openning.If you are not set up to build windows. You cannot compete on a small job like this.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
I'm not worried about the $100 markup on this deal. I'm thinking in terms of several other issues, one of which would be supplying someone, perhaps someone from here, as an opportunity to fly in and make some custom windows for a custom project. This is a high profile project ( the restored building will be the crown jewel of the town) and it very well could become someone's calling card.
blue
Blue,Windows are a great niche market. You may have come upon the next 'Pet Rock'Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
You might want to look into some salvaged old growth timber,
That's a great tip Bryan. Since I happen to be doing this project in a major lumber port, I should be able to find stock all over. There's a ton of stuff in the old buildings around here. I don't mean lying around...I mean in the frames and bones of the buildings. For instance, the roof on my school was framed in 1926, so I know that stuff is quite old. I don't know if it's old growth though, but the next time i'm in the attic, I'm going to look.
blue
From the look of that building, my first question would be why double hung? I think it would look a lot nicer with outswing casements. Most of the time there'd be some open and some closed, which would tend to break up the huge monolithic flatness of it with some random detail. Windows are just texture on a building that size.
Casements, of course, are also a little easier to make, and especially to make weathertight. If you start with outswing, you might later add inswing sash in the same jambs to get better thermal performance without double glazing. That's been done throughout Northern Europe and Scandinavia for centuries.
For weatherstripping, the source is:
http://www.conservationtechnology.com
-- J.S.
Thanks for that site John.
I was considering doing a historic renovation. The school originally had double hung windows and thats why I was considering making them.
I like the idea of an inside casement. I'm going to look at that as an application that I might do here on my lake house.
blue
here ya go blue
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Blue,
I think one reply may have already mentioned it, but the cost for the glazing may tip the scales toward the manufactured replacements. I am assuming you are going to upgrade to a low e thermal type window.
We're building some doors for the current project and the glazing cost was huge. The combination of tempered, low-e makes for expensive glass.
Bruce
Are you joking?
Are you joking?
About what?
blue
Besides what MSA1 listed I would invest in a Shaper in place of a router. 100+ windows makes for a lot of routing. I use the shaper I have to make int/ext doors and then I have moved on to custom trim and cabinet doors. Makes for enjoyable wood working (your other half may need to find a new hobby).
Find a window mfg. who can make a contemporary acting window look like a trad. double hung. Old drafty windows in n. mich. insn't very esthectically pleasing. Just a thought anyway. Those old 2x's windows were just a step in the evolution of windows. Unfortunatey, built into their design, was the inability to completley seal the unit and still have it operate smoothly. Thats probably why everybody had storm windows that you could remove and store for the summer while you used the screens. Although it was a comforting ritual for some, I'm sure somebody got tired of it and invented a better way. Too bad the results were so ugly. Those old windows were pretty gracefull looking. I still havent found a nice looking window. It doesn't mean they don't exist it though.
Been ther, done that...
The real question is WHY???
There are too mmany ohter things that you should/could be doing that would give you a better return on your time/investment.
How about giving some good pics on the existing windows/frames.sills.
I have a solid brick home where the existing 1930 windows were set in place when the walls were laid. Not really a good way to tear them out and replace. Simplest/cheapest solution it to use retro fits and re-apply the extreior molding profile on the outside.
The real question is WHY???
There are too mmany ohter things that you should/could be doing that would give you a better return on your time/investment.
You are correct..the real question is why? I won't be able to get to the bottom of that answer till I explore the question.
That is the purpose of this thread. I know a ton more about this subject before I posted the original question.
blue
blue,
look into one of the three headed shapers from Grizzly or Woodworkers supply.
other wise UB changing bits 20 hours a week!!
power feeders also will be very beneficial.
I was once in a nice WW shop that did alot of doors and windows, they had a Stile cope and tenon machine...
One unit.
Has two opposing planers that form a tenon and two shaper heads that cope the cheeks.
all in one pass.
Check out exfactory.com
What ever you do to save extra work will be payed back times 162...
but you already knowe that...
"Dogs don't follow an emotional leader. They follow the dominant leader. We are the only species that follows an unstable leader. "
Cesar Millan, The Dog Whisperer, in an interview in National Geographic Magazine