I have been asked by a young couple about building a decent but inexpensive house. There is an article in the current FHB about b uilding a ‘green’ inexpensive house, but the article belongs in TOH – lots of promise, pretty pictures, short on details. Is there a book, or maybe a recent detailed article, that discusses this in detail? Maybe sumething by Sarah Susanka?
They have a lot, and it has city water and sewer, so that’s not part of the picture. Actually is 2 acres, very level. There is a restriction that any houses in the area must be 2400 sf, but there aren’t many other demands. They’re hoping to build in the $55-$60/sf range.
I’m sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Replies
I'm looking for that too! I wouldn't want it too cheap or we would be sorry down the road. Does anyone know of a book?
Bluegillman,
The trick is to think outside the box.. Design things yourself It's really not rocket science just basic math and applying the rules that are spelled out for you..That saves the cost of an archetic. Do everything yourself and that saves the cost of both the contractor and the labor, buy materials at their cheapest point.. that saves the added middleman costs. Use recycled stuff whenever possible.. Most of my windows doors and such are recycled..
See if there is another way.. Look at SIP's or ICF's etc. save the finish stuff for later or plan on finishing as you go..
I found this book (Building an Affordable House by Fernando Pages Ruiz) to be very helpful. It answered many of my questions about building an affordable home. It is pretty basic but there are a lot of concepts that todays society has lost touch with. I also found "Low Cost Wood Homes for Rural America- Constructrustion Manual" by the USDA Forest Service interesting to ponder; it comes from an era when things seemed a bit less consumptive even though the calcs they give have new parameters.
There was an article in FHB a couple of years ago. Author in Kansas, I believe.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Maybe it was? ...Beautiful Homes, Built on a Budget
Anyway, for the origninal posters on the subject, the attachment (2MB) is a rejected submital for that compendium. You need Microsoft Word to open it. If you can't open it, let me know what your word processing can open and will convert it to rtf or some such and send it separately.
Edit::
Ed, BGM, file must be too big to attach, send me an e-mail if interested and I'll email a copy.
Edited 7/10/2005 11:53 pm ET by JUNKHOUND
I have a lot of respect for what you have done, but I suspect that the locals would object to a house built of scavenged materials, even though they would be impressed with the $10/sf cost. :)
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
First I've heard about a MINIMUM square footage on a site! Clearly the easiest, best way to save money (i.e. absolute number of dollars, not dollars per square foot) on both capital and operating costs on a home is to make it smaller!
ed.... look to the tract builders..
here's some thoughts:
design the 2400 sf... but include only enough finish interior for them to live in the house with their CURRENT needs
2d.... go with a builder's window.. like Andersen 200 series
3d..
look at ThermoPly structural sheathing.. with vinyl siding
truss roof.. not too cut up...
absolutely... Slab -on-grade...
now.. the above is NOT my house ( except for the ThermoPly sheathing ).. but their cost/SF requirement calls for drastic measures... they can get more quality down the road if they forego interior finish as much as possibleMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Ed-
Look at OVE- "optimum value engineered" framing- 24" oc, 2-stud corners, sheathing only where it's needed, headers only where needed, etc. That'll save some dollars, and is environmentally "right" anyway, as it conserves lumber.
Bob
i'm with Mike Smith
it can be done, we did one a few years ago. Anderson 200's, stick framed roof, bi level with block foundation, basic kitchen, vinyl siding, colonial casing, full paint.
we completely finished it including a deck.
i do want to stress, it was nice, but it was a basic box.
homeowner was thrilled.
carpenter in transition
You're with Mike, except that Mike says truss roof vs your stick built. :) And he says slab, you say block foundation.
And of course a simple layout will save big $ on the foundation and roof.
Molten ... I have seen several areas that require minimum sf. If everyone builds 2500+ houses, and some bozo wants to be in the neighborhood but can't really afford it, all he has to do is build a 1000 sf starter home and he's in. But then it looks like a wart on a beauty queen.
I think the article froma few years ago was by Ferdinand Ruiz or something. I remember that one, and the discussion that followed. Have to go back and search the back issues.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Edited 7/11/2005 10:41 am ET by Ed Hilton
"If everyone builds 2500+ houses, and some bozo wants to be in the neighborhood but can't really afford it, all he has to do is build a 1000 sf starter home and he's in. "I was thinking about starting a thread about house sizes.why do they have to be so big (2400+ sq ft)house built in the 50, 60's were of the 1000 sq ft size. people raised families in them, multiple children.Our house is 1000 sq ft. we raised our family in it, and we are still in it.other than a community wanting larger house so they can collect higher taxes, why are house that big?my goodness, a house 2 1/2 times as big as ours, what is all the space being used for?
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
I agree, Bob. I'm currently in a 3br, 1 ba cape, just under 1,000 SF, and it suits me, my wife, and two daughters just fine. The girls each have nice-sized bedrooms (10x11 +/-), the living room and kitchen are nice.
We had looked at moving to Houston and to Phoenix in the past few years, and everything new was in the 2,000 SF range. I don't need a living room, family room, and a den, or a breakfast bar, nook, and dining room. Not to mention 2-story foyers in a single-story house. Yet, that's all you find anymore. I don't want to heat, cool, furnish or clean the space.
Growing up, there were 4 kids, Mom and Dad in a 1,000SF house- now it seems like a 4-person house "needs" twice that much space. Too much junk accumulation, maybe??
Bob
Start the thread. Start the thread.
I know the "I love it out here beyond the internet cable" people will express disgust [power to ya] but huge swaths of this continent (and the overall environment) would benefit from going back to an attitude of making really good use of a 12 through 25 foot wide lot for an effective 3 bedroom home.
It's particularly disgusting in vacation homes. Remember when a cottage was a funny little shack with curtains made from retired clothes? McMansions with 6 bathrooms and big noisy AC units are destroying lake country. I've done quick searches for designs for a small footprint cottages and homes, and mostly found ones designed for sprawl. (50 foot wide one bedroom home with 2 car garage? HUH?) Just where and why are land and fossil fuels that cheap?
And more to your point:
" ... what is all the space being used for?"
A: ego.
Check Taunton's web site for the small house books by S. Saranka.
First her definition of "small" is against the 5000 sq ft MacMansions.I doubt if there is anything in there less than 2000 sq ft. And I think go up to 3500.And the emphasis is on Value vs Size.They are not inexpensive homes.
Point granted.
So much of new construction in my area is Macmansions that my sense of small is probably distorted.
But what is wrong with emphasizing value vs size?
Bobl.
I too grew up in a 1300 sq.ft. house and yet I'm building a 5000 sq.ft. house.
Why?
Simple, I have two daughters and soon they will need a home of their own.. What I intend to do is build a multigenerational home. One where my daughters can live with their future husbands and children in a degree of comfort. (comfort in this case being privacy)
If they are packed in like so many sardenes they will buy their own home and then I will be forced by appraching age to sell and move to a smaller home and then to a nursing home (we really should call them by their real name, dieing homes)
Those moves will eat up any assets that I have.
My alternative is to give them enough room for them to be comfortable, they then won't need to sacrafice all of their adult life making mortage payments and will then have that money to use for themselves rather than paying a bank every month..
In return the last few years of my life I will be at home in the arms of my family in a home I made, suurounded by familar things.. Yes they may need to take care of me just as I took care of them but that won't last forever.. Yes to make this work I'll need to gradually turn control over to my daughters but better them than an overworked, underpaid nursing staff.. If they need to briefly hire a nurse/ caregiver it will be for a short time and still less than a mortage..
Since nobody lives forever I'm just planning my exit stratagy... What is the old expression, Without prior planning you can plan on poor performance?
I have no problem with folks who want to build/own big houses. I can dream too.I started a seperate thread about how big tract/spec houses are.I was intregued with how big houses are being built when there isn't an immediate buyer.it seems from the other thread it it is like everthing else, more has become the norm whether u need it or not. everyone in the house with their own cell phone, tv, etc. (oh my wife and I each have a cell, for insurance but it only costs us $25 a month for both.)Hope your kids want to live with u
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
Neighbor just gave me 3 ea 9 ft roll up garage doors with tracks, installer of new was going to charge him $50 each to haul them away -- his wife just wanted a different style. Free used garage doors are a good type of savings if you are not really picky about having the latest trendy style. Just in time too, the kids dropped off some more stuff to store, guess will have to build another garage this summer.
In keeping with Ed's original post, one advice item not mentioned yet (maybe too obvious) but if it gets 'worded around' that the young couple (they need to have an old truck anyway, right) will haul off usable material (eg doors as above) for a good use, within a few months you have more than you can handle. For a starter family, good decent used appliances (DW, oven, cooktop, fridge, WH, etc) are often free for the hauling. Could have had even a free piano last week that was good but only partially refinished, but passed on it.
Never can have too much under a roof if you are any type of collector of anything. I agree that in a dwelling a lot of little rooms is useless, but big rooms add to quality of life and ease. The 'extra sq ft' for DIY are a lot cheaper than if built and sold on spec.
Talked to a guy from outside Decatur, IL (he is a retired GC, his kids run the business now) at a conference last month who bought the old green bean packing plant next door to his house years ago primarily to store insulation, etc. Must have well over 4 acres under roof. Cost him over 100K to reroof. He has it 100% full, but he collects more than I do.
Another neighbor collects antique cars, (not old junkers like his redneck neighbor<G>), built a 2 story with elevator garage for storage, about 60,000 sq ft, all full.
Re: Multigenerational living - separate houses on same acreage is about as close as I'd want due to privacy issues.
Junkhound,
re; multigenerational housing, Given enough space and proper planning a multigenerational home can be made to serve two or even three families well with a great deal of privacy. Each "family" should have their own floor or level (send the youngsters upstairs, their young legs won't mind the stairs ;-) share only certain rooms such as family rooms and maybe, Maybe! a kitchen. Best give every "family" a little kitchenette. Each family should be able to adjust their own tempurature, have their own bathroom and their own hobby spaces..
Totally insulate each room from the others to prevent sound transmission. and no bedroom should be over another bedroom... The entry should be away from bedrooms and properly designed should allow coming and going without other occupants of the home to be aware of it..
re; multigenerational housingthe generations have to want to live togetherbe able to support themselves in the vacinityyou are assuming your daughters want to stay in the town you live in and their SO's will want to live with you. Maybe the So will want to live with their parents :)their careers may take them elsewhere
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
He's also assuming that his daughters won't mind taking care of him during the diaper years. Caring for an aging parent is an exhausting, difficult task, and not for the faint of heart. Changing your own parents' diapers is not like changing them on your children. Plus there is no guarantee that it will be short - those nursing care years can last a decade or more. Personally, I love my daughters very much and don't want to put them through what I am watching my mother go through.
mike's right....
a simple truss is cheaper than the simple stick.
we did stick because their home before was a modular with a 2 piece gable truss that killed the attic space. the additional cost was not too significant and the added attic space for all of the usual junk was a huge bonus.
a slab is cheaper than a basement.
we started with a bi-level and had to stick with it, which meant rebuilding the basement. the slab definitely would have been less.
carpenter in transition
Ed,
How much sweat equity is involved? I am building a wonderful timberframe and my per sq foot costs are a fraction of what you are listing. Several ways to do this, depending on what part of the country you are talking about. The trick here is that it can't be done if they just want to write a check but it can easily be done if they are creative and capable and willing to work hard themselves..
I just applied for a a permit for a portion of my double timber frame that will be 1800 sq.ft. and the costs involved including subcontracted labor are $8800.00 That is using SIP's, stone, and black walnut timbers for the exterior and white oak and cherry/maple etc. interior wood work (very little sheet rock) I am using recycled stuff and new stuff and I refuse to cut any corners building..
Frenchy, you and Junkhound are in a whole different class. In this case, the only work they would be capable of doing would be painting, although I'm sure they could learn ceramic tile flooring, possibly painted trim, etc. I guess they could insulate, but it might be a problem staying on the contractors schedule.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Hmm, I'm wondering if there's any benefit in a locally atyipcal foundation. Like a an icf knee foundation wall and a wood floors versus the all-too-typical slab on grade.
The question comes down to a floor deck of wood versus $72/yard concrete--as that fuels a design criteria that the floor deck efficiently use off-th-shelf (available in the yard) floor structure.
Since it's a minimum outside foot print, this actually allows some freedom in the walls--this house could have a mooney wall or a persist insulation plane for relatively little overall cost (and a nice payback in operating expense).
I'd design in a number of "three season" rooms to hit the target square footage, too (knowing, of course, that a true "3 season" room in Texas needs a/c)--but the spaces would still "count" while being available for future remodeling or adaptive use.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Frenchy,
Just curious if you are including in your costs what it would be for a normal person to rent the lift and boom equipment that you have been using? If so, good on ya!
I recall Frenchy once saying in his area he could get lift mechanisms off old forklifts (for DIY elevator) for scrap prices, I've looked aroung PNW and no such animal available here - but think Frenchy's lift cost are likely near zero.
re; a later thread but will throw it in here -- The people who are not willing to make some of the time and effort sacrifices (which includes lots of self-education) are often the ones who will look at Frenchy's house and call him "lucky" as they leave to go to a pro ball game or some such.
Sure wish this board had been around 40 years ago, would not have had to learn some lessons the hard way.
Aimless,
Good question! No my numbers don't include the cost of the Forklift rental since to me that is nearly free.. But your point is well taken..
If I were building a low cost home I'd have the everything done on floor level since building up demands much more from the equipment dept. scaffolding, forklifts, and work staging for example.. I'd build slab on grade and forget a basement. Nothing would be over 1 story so the worst expense you'd have would be a borrowed ladder..
My timbers are all heavily worked requireing a big cash outlay for equipment but you can buy used equipment for about 60% of the cost of new, sell after you use it for nearly total recovery of equipment expense. In addition I get all my timbers from a local sawmill and haul then with the company flatbed thus saving the cost of frieght.. The company allows me to use the truck free if I refill the tanks or charges me 10 cents per mile I drive it.. if I don't (guess which I've used lately)
My site is lakeshore and thus I don't have the luxury of building a single story house, the cost of a buildable lot near nme is very nearly 1 million dolars and that's actually substandard size. The city would like me to own three lots to build except it's grandfathered in..
If you are in the southwest where there are few sawmills your costs for wood would be dramatically higher. That's where building with ICF's or Adobe would make sense.. Most of the rest of the country has an abundance of wood at really modest costs.. The trick is that wood gets more expensive with every person who handles it and there are several hands involved..
Small to medium sawmills survive with fast turn over.. Work with them as I do and you get some unbeleavably low prices for wood that looks bad but is great! Once someone orders wood the sawmill only has a few months to sell it before it starts to turn grey and become unsellable.. That greyness comes off with the first pass of the planner so there is no long term harm done to the wood. Yet Wood that sells at wholesale for a couple of dollars per board foot I've bought for as little as 15 cents a bd.ft..
In addition wood that the sawmill has on hand too long they simply give me figuring that it would cost too much to run thru their shredder.. It used to be that pallot mills would buy all the grey wood but that market has dried up locally so the choice is to recover a dime a bd.ft. or shred it and haul it off..
You need to be carefull though, I once took some 5/4 ash and found out that mold had attacked the center of the pile and I had to dispose of almost 150 bd.ft. of 5/4 ash. You need to be not too greedy either. I have a stack of nice wide boards (15 to 29 inches wide) of all white flawless hard maple that I didn't have the space to store inside so storage outside ruined it and now it's waiting to become concrete forms..
I do spend a great deal of time moving wood around and stickering it and strapping it together.. (to prevent warpage) I'd say that 20% of my time is spent handleing wood and I'd hate to think about how much work I'd need to put in without access to all the material handling equipment that I get to use..
I calculated that the list price of wood used so far is just short of $250,000.00 and I doubt I've got $20,000. 00 spent.
frenchy,
i have an enormous appreciation for the home you are building and the time and love you are putting in it.
when i look in the fine homebuilding "houses" edition, timberframes like yours are typically the highest cost homes per sf with the exception of the ones built in downtown Carmel, CA. typical timberframe sf home costs tend to exceed $350 sf.
if you are going to tell someone on this board that you are building a timberframe home built with SIP's, stone, and black walnut timbers for the exterior and white oak and cherry/maple etc. and you are doing it for a fraction of $60 per sf, then you need to tell the other half of the story.
you know, the part about the house taking 4 years to build (i think i might be on the light side here) of every night and weekend and no time for the family all of the other juicy details that got left out.
creative and capable and willing to work hard is one thing, but it also tests marriages and families. most people these days are only willing and/or capable of doing their own painting and landscaping. keeping their input to this level allows them to maintain their sanity and get them to the public pool faster.
carpenter in transition
Tim
good point,, yes I am dedicated to the task and yes it's taken 4 years of work to build about 1/2 of a house. (it will be 4 years labor day*) I do get permits for only the portion of the work that can be done in the required permit time.
Since I am home virtually 24/7/365 (except for the time spent earning a living) I am always avaiable to solve family issues and my family knows that they will benefit long term from this.. we sat down and calculated it would take 10 years to build (I'm slightly ahead of schedule ) and everyone signed off on the concept before we began..
My wife does put up with a great deal but we all accept the fact that we could never just write a check and achieve this so that is the compromise made.. Somehow seeing me sweat putting timbers together and the all hard work involved makes a positive example for my children.
As for me, well, I don't honestly know what I'd do if it weren't for the work.. I don't golf or play games, I don't like the bar scene, and the idea of standing around at a cocktail party turns me cold.. I've traveled so much in my life that staying home is a real blessing.. One neighbor goes out every saturday to vacumm up the sidewalk, honestly he spends more than an hour with a shop vac making the sidewalk clean..
I hope that in my life I achieve more than having the cleanest sidewalks..
Great followup posts, Frenchy.
I'd add one note as I'm turning 60 - took me 3 years to build 1st house on weekends and evenings, we were in mid 20s then and kids were 5&7 and not too demanding, plus they loved to drive nails . Now, would likely take 6 to 10 years, unbelievable the loss of strength/energy/ambition with age. Simple additions, etc. onto the kid's house(s) is more my speed now.
The payback for DIY building is unbelievable - do the math, invest your mortgage payments for 40 years vs paying a lender interest.
Investment in tools pays later dividends if kept. Grandkids (3 to 10) love to run (well supervised) the Bulldozer/backhoe, watch chips fly out of the planer, curls of aluminuim come off the lathe, etc. .
BTW, in regards to 'You need to be not too greedy either', got 45ea 14 ft 4x6 hemlock in the mid 80s off some pallets once, never got around to putting them in a shed, ended up 7 years later as ant food./compost.
Ask Boss Hog about truss sets that get ordered with major errors and returned. Look around local yards for a house worth of windows likewise returned because of mistakes. Pick up these two big ticket items for cheap, and design a house around them.
Sort of like remodeling, but with the pieces not put together yet. ;-)
-- J.S.
"Ask Boss Hog about truss sets that get ordered with major errors and returned."
Actually, I get asked about this about once a week by people looking for a deal. And I'd say it probably works about one time in 500.
The problem is that the trusses that have mistakes aren't a nice set of 30' commons at 5/12. What typically gets messed up is 3 or 4 trusses that are 31' 4" at 9/12 with a tray ceiling in them with raised heels and a 4' 7 1/2" snub one end.
The entire house is virtually never wrong.
It's very rare that a whole set of house trusses are available. Over the 20+ years I've been in this business, I can think of only twice that it's worked out that we could match up an entire set of trusses with someone that could use them.
Of course - There may be truss companies out there that make more mistakes than I do. (-:
A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem. [Einstein]
Can you build a whole house for what they want to spend and cover your overhead and profit. Around here additions to homes are going for twice that.
Green building methods probably won't decrease the cost to build a home. Green methods may lower the operating costs of a home thus costing less after it's built.
I had to put in about 85% sweat equity to get the numbers your prospective clients are looking for.
your client may want to take another looks at their restrictions. Though unlikely for them, I've read a few that expire after a # of years or so.
posted above
house built in the 50, 60's were of the 1000 sq ft size. people raised families in them, multiple children.Our house is 1000 sq ft. we raised our family in it, and we are still in it.other than a community wanting larger house so they can collect higher taxes, why are house that big?
++++++++++++++++
My gripe with the small houses are that most are one bath and the baths are real small.
Here's the link to the book mentioned here:
http://www.taunton.com/store/pages/070727.asp
Might be worthwhile to visit the local library and check out a copy of Rex Reed's 'The Engineered House'. I think that's the name. Something close. A pretty common book in a lot of circles.
While I don't ascribe to his theories on insulation or panel size there are plenty of good ideas in there.
Like going with a subfloor and treating the ply with linseed oil. Seen this done and it actually looks good. Later, when money becomes more available a more exotic and finished floor can be installed.
He also advises on using fixed windows, ones that don't open. He suggests separate vents. Something I would think twice about. Seeing as that most windows remain closed the fixed windows seem a no-brainer. A lot cheaper. Of course your going to need some that open to meet egress requirements but 90% can be the bought or site built fixed variety.
You can save by not installing mouldings. Perhaps limit it to a simple quarter round or simple board.
Simple roof lines, a roughly rectangular footprint, that gives you the maximum square foot area for a given amount of wall area, and a two story design, that maximizes area for roof and slab or foundation area is, IMHO, a good idea. These are a simple matter of geometry.
On the other hand I don't like Thermoply. Spend another couple of bucks and at least go with OSB.
Was talking to a builder who has started using 'drop-chord' trusses. Essentially these lift the roof deck a few inches. They eliminate the need for those styrene troughs and the labor to install them. A savings that can save the any additional cost of the different trusses. They make the insulation more effective because it means that he insulation can be full thickness across the attic. All the way to the exterior walls. It also opens up the attic and keeps the soffet to ridge vent area open.
<<<<
Was talking to a builder who has started using 'drop-chord' trusses. Essentially these lift the roof deck a few inches. They eliminate the need for those styrene troughs and the labor to install them. A savings that can save the any additional cost of the different trusses. They make the insulation more effective because it means that he insulation can be full thickness across the attic. All the way to the exterior walls. It also opens up the attic and keeps the soffet to ridge vent area open.>>>
not really.... we've been using "energy heel " trusses for years.. our typical heel is 12".. but you still need a dam to keep the insulation from filling the soffit...and you need the styrene troughs to get by the dam at the plate line...
energy requirements call for lots of insulation in the attic.. and it is still a restricted area at the eavesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"He also advises on using fixed windows, ones that don't open. He suggests separate vents. Something I would think twice about. Seeing as that most windows remain closed the fixed windows seem a no-brainer. A lot cheaper. Of course your going to need some that open to meet egress requirements but 90% can be the bought or site built fixed variety."You're gonna want those windows after the meltdown of civilization and the loss of the electrical power grid!Read the U.S. Constitution here"That government is best which governs least." -- Thomas Paine
He also advises on using fixed windows, ones that don't open. He suggests separate vents. Something I would think twice about. Seeing as that most windows remain closed the fixed windows seem a no-brainer. A lot cheaper. Of course your going to need some that open to meet egress requirements but 90% can be the bought or site built fixed variety.
This I've done twice. Window savings far outweigh the cost of the air system. In addition, it gives us considerably better ventilation (.5 ACH) and cleaner air from filtration. For our humid summers we also incorporate a dehumidifier before the heat exchanger so we aren't suffering a heat gain from the dehumidifier.
Virtually anybody can build a frame for fixed glass. Last house, we copper clad them to match the siding. Over 400 sq ft of low e windows (14 frames) ran a little over $4k. Air system, installed, about $475. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
4LORN1,
Good post, however here in the northland people should look at the cost of SIP's I pay around $3.50 a sq.ft for a 6 inch panel and a 10 inch panel is only about 35 cents per sq.ft. extra.
They wind up costing you less than stick building and are 200% stronger plus other advantages.. (energy efficency, sound deadening, fire safety, ease and speed of assembly)
In the tornado/ hurricane/ southwest I'd build with ICF's. Higher per sq.ft. costs but the potential strength (and freedom from insect damage) might easily be worth it..
Based on the 2400 sq ft restriction might it make better business sense to save this lot for someone who has some more financial resources? It seems to me that the $55-$60/sf range is more appropriate for a 1,000 - 1,400 sq ft range home.
I don't know what building costs are in your area, but I can guess that the material costs are fairly close to what it is throughout the US. Also not sure if that $55-$60/sf range includes the land. Either way, the budget will need to be cut nearly to the bone, as will your income and profit. Further, I'm assuming you would be subdividing the 2 acres, and another question to ponder is will building a low budget/return home lock you into building houses that are at least similar on the remaining lots?
Assuming the 2 acres are to be subdivided, you might be better off to just sell lots than build the type of house your are talking about. Selling lots would maybe yield 1/2 the return, for 1/10th the time invested.
Again, I don't know anything about the real estate market where you live but my guess would be that you would cut out a lot where the house would be built right up to the setbacks, and again, would this restrict what else could be built on the other parts of the parcel? Many people they want diversity, but the truth is that they want limited diversity where they live.
Subdividing the lot is not an option. A rich relative has carved out the 2 acres from the 100+A their house is on, and given it as a gift. So the location is fixed, and the land cost is not part of the budget. It is a nice lot, flat, adjacent to a paved street, water & sewer along the front PL.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Ed:
Be sure they check on hookup fees on a tight budget for the water and sewer,esp if their relatives are on a well. If I broke a lot off the back for one of the kids, the water dist. here would hit them with a $2000 bill minimum- still on a well here, when a water main was put past the front during adjacent subdivisions, was told there would be that size assessment whenever anybody hooked up to the water district. Same thing with sewer.
Assume the 3 MB email went thru.
I'm still downloading the file ...
Yes, it came through fine. Thanks.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
OH - OK - they own the lot - that makes it different. Sorry, I thought you owned the lot. One subdivision I'm building in right now is $90k homes - land included. So, I have some ideas about low end building - want to hear 'em? Or did you really just want a reference for a book?
Matt
Edited 7/13/2005 6:23 am ET by Matt
I was looking for a reference book, and also for advice and comments from the esteemed members of the forum.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
and comments from the esteemed members of the forum.
Oops. No comment. <G>
One thing Matt apparently forgot was that a larger house has a lot of cheap sq ft, or at least can have. Everybody's gotta have a kitchen, bath or few, expensive sq ft. That's why tiny houses often have extremely high sq ft costs attached. Not necessarily high total cost. You wanted low sq ft costs.
Clearly for low sq ft costs you're going to have to limit your detailing. Not difficult. My last (client) house came in well under $65/ft, for 2000 sq ft. Including septic, not including land and well. It appraised 50% higher than construction cost. I was paid hourly. That was cast-in-place concrete PAHS with copper on the exposed walls. Large steel holding up a 300 ton roof with a 40' clear span. Steel prices took a substantial hike since then, which would add $2/sq ft today.
Pretty much everything inside was purchased on ebay. Kitchen cabinets, sink, range, granite counters, all doors and hardware, whirlpool tub, light fixtures, HRV, heatpump water heater, you name it. When the whole thing was put together it came out nice, clearly impressed the appraiser, who totally ignored the energy saving design, paying attention solely to the size, detailing, and location. The owner, and I, knew several places where substantial money was wasted, but that's building.
Clearly we could have built the house much cheaper with cheaper detailing. Your target seems approachable to me, just gotta be very careful. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
How much should Ed be compensated looking for bargains for prospective clients.
There a lot of ways to shop for materials, and if the clients are willing and capable to find these bargains it could help . BUT finding deals and expecting them to be available when the contractor needs them is the bigger challenge. How does Ed arrange his schedules and subs while wating for an EBAY auction to close?
Yes there many alternate ways to build a home, and a contractor needs to be prepared and geared for those approaches.
"Prospective clients"? Get a grip. Nobody in his right mind would waste time shopping for such.
Certainly won't speak for Ed. My client shopped for himself, the GC. In my costs I didn't include his ebay time. Nor did anybody "arrange his schedules and subs while wating for an EBAY auction to close". That would have blown the costs.
My point, which you seem to have missed, was that even though material is not the major portion of house cost, it's a significant one that can be adjusted.
You might try an attitude adjustment, could find it beneficial. I think I remember an 8th grade coach mentioning something about "can't never did anything". Scheduling was never an issue.
Twit: an insignificant or bothersome person. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom I did not mean to infer that it can't be done. As I have done it myself in a similar way. I would not expect a contractor to wait for me to find the discounts I needed, to make my project financially feasible for me.
My point was for Ed to have a profitable job, if he spends large amounts of time looking for bargains, it is time he is not building these folks a new home. If the homeowners have all their ducks in a row, and they are capable of buying the correct and compatible materials for their project, and the contractor is comfortable with this arrangement it could work. Most builders up here are not inclined to work that way.
I am sorry if it sounded like I have an attitude about this. My concern was, can Ed work with a little different client / builder arrangement to save a substantial amount of money, and still earn a living ?
My concern was, can Ed work with a little different client / builder arrangement to save a substantial amount of money, and still earn a living ?
I think that was pretty much the question Ed originally asked. It's a good one.
Thank you for adding to the conversation.
Your questioning profitability is clearly germane. My guess is, almost no GC here would even consider the potential, too many other prospects. Ed, I don't know about.
Why I find/found the prospect interesting is simply to see what can be accomplished. Not unlike when I agreed to work with my guy. Notice it was strictly hourly, by my choice. Ebay was his idea and he started months in advance. Zero delays, if he didn't have hardware, we bought it locally. Which almost never happened. I probably would not have done it for a stranger. Clearly my situation was unusual, but not unique.
As the larger part of the cost is labor, it was also something we addressed very early on. We certainly didn't get everything right. Framing labor would have cost 1/2 what it did if the concrete finishers had been reasonably professional. That was $3600 ($1.80/ sq ft) wasted by hiring concrete guys that I wouldn't have let near the site. There were other examples. The HVAC guy reamed him on the duct work.
But by and large, we did very well. And were both very happy with the conclusion. Which is pretty much the goal.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
>> One thing Matt apparently forgot was that a larger house has a lot of cheap sq ft, or at least can have. Everybody's gotta have a kitchen, bath or few, expensive sq ft. That's why tiny houses often have extremely high sq ft costs attached. <<
Good point. It just seems a bit strange to have a $55 sq ft budget for that sized house. The ones I'm doing right now sell for around $105/sq ft and up and aren't real fancy by any means. That includes the land though.
Still, as I said, the budget will need to be cut pretty much to the bone. Matt
Still, as I said, the budget will need to be cut pretty much to the bone.
No question about that. Maybe into the bone. And if it's not profitable .....
Ed's looking for somewhere around half the normal entry-level rate here. Spoke today with a realtor who just had built a very simple home here and considered himself to have done extremely well to come in just under $90/ft. Land cost exclusive, as they almost have to be.
For your $105/ft, how much is the land?
Land cost for a single family home here can easily vary $400k/lot. Doesn't make much sense to include it.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
>> For your $105/ft, how much is the land? << These lots were a mere $15k. We got them through a city community development program which I believe receives a federal subsidity. Matt
>> esteemed members of the forum. << Hummm not sure how to 'process that'. I've been around pretty much as long as anyone else - does that qualify me? :-)
Anyway, here are my ideas:
If lot is wooded - clear the minimum area.
Monolithic slab on grade. Keep the house close to the street to make for minimal concrete driveway, walkway, utility runs. Probably no foundation drainage system - just good grading. Try to make the dirt removed for the foundation do for the backfill/grading.
Simple box with maybe one gable extra on front to give it a bit of interest. Maybe no garage, but if so, make it a single. With that large lot they can add a detached garage later - easily. Keep unheated sq footage to a minimum. Probably small front porch 5'x5' max - that's it. No attic storage.
I think you will find 2 story square footage cheaper. Les foundation and roof. 2x10 floor system for 2nd floor. Forget about TJIs, floor trusses, etc. sips or any other new building technology. No advantech - OSB floor sheathing for 2nd floor. Truss roof. 7/16" OSB roof sheathing. Mike's (I think) suggestion for thermoply sheathing wall is a good one, but if not, use structural black board sheathing - nearly as cheap as thermaply cardboard :-) 24" OC studs in interior, non load bearing walls. Some model building codes allow single top plates - just so your framing is all stacked just right.
Concrete patio, not a deck - deck = $12 sq ft, concrete = $2.50 sq ft. Maybe nothing.
Be careful with the plumbing layouts and fixtures - stock, entry level white fixtures only - pex pipe supply pipe. 2.5 baths max. White fiberglass bathtubs. Cheap vanities w laminate tops with drop in china sinks. Shallow 2 bowl stainless kitchen sink. Cheap pedestal sink might be cheapest solution for powder room - if there is one. Chrome faucets only.
Heat pump - might be good to put in some extra planning to make sure the unit is not oversized. Non vented kitchen "hood".
Electrical - ceiling fixtures only - no ceiling fans or can lights. No switched outlets. Minimum outlets as required by code. 200 A panel max. No sub panels. Sometimes you can get away with a mobile home style panel that has the meter base and panel all in 1. $600 lighting fixture budget.
Insulation - R-13 or whatever is minimum for your area. No batt insulation in the ceiling - only blown.
vinyl siding, cheap single hung vinyl windows - off brand. Steel 6 panel front door. Any Other exterior door steel flush except maybe Maybe a 9 lite for the back door. Metal wrapped fascias. Vented soffits.
20 yr shingles. Ridge vent. No drip edge. No gutters.
Wrap window returns with sheetrock no wood jamb extensions - my sheetrock guy doesn't charge for wrapped returns, but the windows need to be centered. 1/2" 'board' in entire house.
Interior trim very minimal - all FJ painted - only casing is on the door jambs. None on windows. Just a simple stool & apron. No cased openings - just wrap em with sheetrock. 3 1/4" FJ base. Interior doors are probably 6 panel wood textured split jamb hollow core prehung. No crown - obviously. Steps are carpeted. Little to no balustrade. No stained wood. Ventilated metal shelving. Brass colored hardware.
Have installed the cheapest cabinets you can find that won't fall apart within the first few years. Probably oak. No drawer/cabinet door knobs. Laminate countertops including in bathrooms. My cab company charges extra for 45 degree angle counters, as it moves the job from stock tops to custom, so watch that.
Cheap carpet with 6# padding. Vinyl floors in kitchen, bathrooms and laundry closet. No hardwood. Keep vinyl floor to a minimum - If there is a breakfast nook, carpet it.
Appliances are all electric. Probably range, DW only. No micro or disposal.
Landscaping consists of seed and straw and 4 to 6 cheap small shrubs.
Get 3 bids for every sub hired. :-( Don't 'do' estimates - only bids. Draw up a short spec sheet for each major sub so you can be sure you are bidding apples to apples. Get 3 bids for every major material purchase. Sometimes subs that supply turnkey services (labor & material) are cheapest, as it makes them conserve materials, and they can deal with any leftovers. Roofing is a good example.
Hire cheap painters - I'm sure you got 'em in Texas :-). All walls the same color maybe just white. All ceilings white. Only thing on the exterior that is painted is the doors and door brick mold. Maybe a front porch column if there is one.
Matt
Edited 7/14/2005 7:42 am ET by Matt