We are about to build a new house and are working with a local builder who is well liked, his work is good, and are working well with them. He has a dedicated person who draws plans and customizes them. We’d like to show the completed plans to 2 other builders to get their bids/ideas, but not sure how to approach it. Is this a common practice? I’d be willing to pay for the plans if we go with another builder but don’t want to start over with an architect and be out $$$ for nothing. Price is not the only consideration, but we want to get a competitive bid so we have something to compare it to.
Any advice?
Replies
If you've found a good builder who is well liked, why would shop elsewhere? You can always find a cheaper price for your house. But usually a cheaper builder will be cutting costs somewhere to save the difference. Stay with the quality builder and negotiate the price with them.
You should inform builder #1 of your wish to get a second price, and you should sign a separate contract with him for the design phase. He does the design, you pay for it. If he chooses to "bid" on the job, he can do so. You should be aware that homeowners are rarely able to solicit apples-to-apples prices from different contractors. In my experience this is true even for homeowners who have architect-designed plans and have the architect handle the bid solicitation. You may find that you have just muddied the waters if you get prices to "compare".
Huge no-no. Period.
But that said, the guy you've been working with is obviously not a regular Breaktime participant or reader, otherwise he would have changed his business plan and charged you for the proposal, and then not allowed you to have a set of the prints unless you signed onto a binding contract.
Shame on you both.
To get apples to apples competitive bids, you have to take plans and specs that are yours, and wrap up the package as a request for quotation, given to various qualified bidders.
Given market conditions in most places, you should have no trouble finding qualified builders willing to bid competitively.
Sorry, but you'll have to either start over from scratch, or simply go with the guy you've got.
All of the above are dead on.
The reputation of the builder and the vision of his draftsperson is what you are paying for. He has already made your experience easier by providing a crack design person to design what you want and putting together a quote with people who will no doubt provide the quality you are looking for.
I remember a few clients who would say , "price is not the only consideration." Anything that follows that statement that involves getting other prices is contradictory.
I think you should inform him before he bids or has his person do blueprints that you intend to shop for other prices or whatever the other consideration is.
Jon
Russian saying
I guess what I am saying in part here is that the time for the comparison is past. Should have disussed this with builder mentioned before getting this far along.
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Coinless, the OP, hasn't said explicitely that the design is done and the drawings made.
He or she (bets on which?) says that they, or just he or she, have "been working" with this builder, who has a draftsperson on board. They may still be stuck on whether to have undercounter multiple SubZeroes or just a big glassdoor walk-in.
How much "working" do you think that Coinless (hmmmmm . . . that screen name, something about it . . . have I prequalified my buyer well enough????) would get to do with a design-build outfit that made it clear upfront that the services would require a fee?
Now, do I revise my business plan or not? Proposal fees, in advance? Sorta what a lawyer does, right?
My instinct was that coinless is a she
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How much "working" do you think that Coinless
You've hit my first question after reading the OP.
My next question was how much of a D-B is the builder, too? When I was doing that sort of work, the price and the design both reflected the building services I could provide. So, certain sorts of things were more possible due to the crewe I had available--which then "drove" the desing abit (and some vice versa, too).
But, I'm jaded a bit on the topic, too (that call from the plans examiner about why I had not submitted stamped drawings was so much fun <sigh> . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I told them at the first meeting we'd be checking out several builders and even considering being the GC myself. He said fine, but now he has the plans going strong and now we feel committed without having even sat down with another builder. I wanted to see if it was common to "shop the plans" and see if a better price was out there. I'm guessing most builders will side on the builder's side. But competition is what makes the world go round... kindaWe saw the elevation today and it missed the mark completely. The devil is in the details and we just want to hit it dead on without breaking the bank.So no go on even approaching the subject? How about if I went to another builder and they drew up my plans and went head to head that away? Would that be fair? Isn't this how big projects like the WTC get done? 3 designs and winner takes all? Granted my project is only $300-350k in comparison, but I am a rookie.BTW The 3rd guy said I'd need to have my own plans so I'm thinking he is out.
" I'm guessing most builders will side on the builder's side."You said he said its all fine, so sure, whatever he wants to let you do with his plans is fine with me. He said fine, you say fine, why ask here then? You two are both in agreement...So why are you thinking and speaking in terms of taking sides?All is not as it appears here
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Your concerns are valid, it's just the way you're talking about checking on what's a fair price that many of us have problems with.
My advise is to hire a professional estimator who can provide an unbiased ballpark price for less than the cost of a new TV. A good estimator will help you quantify the level of quality you are after as well as long-term durability of materials. If your GC is significantly higher he should be able to explain why and there are many valid reasons to not build to the lowest acceptable level of quality.
Unless you have a great deal of construction experience and can quantify all the small trade offs that each builder is going to make it's very difficult to take a set of plans to 3 builders and have them provide apples to apples numbers. This is key write it down, memorize it, carve it on the bark of your favorite elm.
There are litterally 100s of quality reducing short cuts that inexpensive builders can use to barely build something that sort of resembles what your plans show. A great deal of detail is left out of most plans. That's a fact.
Builders will also have differing assumptions and ways of dealing with them. We just signed up a client for the first part of next year that originally approached us back in April. They gave the project to another contractor only to find out his hidden fees made this "less expensive" contractor significantly higher than what we provide and our quality is much higher.
There is no free lunch when it comes to the lowest bidder.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Most contractors I know will give away more than they should when intial plans are being drawn. It only takes getting burned once or twice for most to charge design fees and demand all plans stay in their control until a contract is signed.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
"I told them at the first meeting we'd be checking out several builders and even considering being the GC myself."
Given that you told them up front, I can't see anything wrong with doing exactly what you said you would do.
But if you DO end up using another builder, I would say you absolutely should pay the guy for his design services.
And it might be a good idea to remind him that you plan to get other bids. He may assume that since you're working so closely with him that he has the job sewed up.
Hell is when the person you are meets the person you could have been [Michael Castellano, Texas Jaycees]
He shouldn't be assuming anything. Either he has a written contract to cover his design services, or he doesn't. If he hands over plans unconditionally then he's a numb-nuts who will probably get burned on this deal. On the next deal he'll know better. It's hard for me to imagine a design-build contractor with a designer on staff not knowing this. The OP has mentioned nothing about contracts or money.
You're right, but - We're talking to the HO, not the GC.
In the book she says when Bill told her he was having an affair, she said 'I could hardly breathe, I was gulping for air.' No, I'm sorry, that's what Monica said. [David Letterman]
I am not sure but wouldn't it be the case that if he did hand them to someone that anyone who would use those plans does not have the legal authority without his permission. Isn't a design like art work. Even though an artist designed something, nobody else has the legal right to copy something an artist designed, much like a copyright protects a writer.
Well, we haven't heard anything about a possible contract signed between the OP and the design/builder. Such a contract would have to spell out the terms under which the design was to be used, I would think. Absent that, there is probably existing law that defines the work as either "work for hire", which would mean that the OP could have anyone build the design, OR perhaps it's the case that the builder retains copyright if nothing to the contrary is agreed upon. Note that I am not a lawyer and have never played one on TV.
My feeling is that the OP could pay the builder for the design and then try to get another bid, if that's what they really want to do, although it sounds like sticking with the original guy is advisable. I was approached about a year ago by someone in a similar situation. They hired a design/build company for their house, but after the design was done they discovered they couldn't afford the construction services of that same company. Shocking! I passed on it and the house is now under construction by a third company.
Nobody has mentioned it yet, but there is also a certain percentage that we all add to bids for the hasle factor based on our inital impressions. We have to charge more since the odds of further problems down the line are much greater.
If a client says they want to start with us, drags their feet, goes with someone else, it falls apart and they come back, it's a warning sign and our price goes up.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Like I said above as long as you are being honest with the guy and pay for the design work I think it is fine.
Here is the catch though: In order to get anything near an apples to apples comparison, be prepared to draw up very detailed specs, or a set of schedules. For example:
Floor covering schedule (including grades or brands of material)Appliance schedule (with model numbers)Interior trim schedule,plumbing fixture schedule,cabinetsetcetcetc.
Which actually you may likely go through this with builder #1 anyway.
Now here is the part where they throw rocks at me... :-) Realize that this web site is populated with some skilled craftsmen, who are very good at what they do but most aren't new home builders. They either don't understand the competitive nature of new home building or have chosen to compete in other markets for a number of reasons, one of which may well be that new home building is so price competitive. Looking at the previous responses I see a few actual builders. The rest are subcontractors, remodelers, and some non building professionals.
In the homebuilding business I solicit bids from subs and am open about it. We call it "keeping 'em honest". Some guys get a little indignant when their prices are questioned - I have no use for pre-madonnas. You need to fully realize though that price is by far not the only object, and that quality and service weigh in very heavy too.
I don't know any good consumer, that hasn't solicited competitive bids for projects much less involved, and expensive, than a new house. I get sub bids all the time, and things vary from one to another.
Must be in your definition of a GOOD customer.I don't know of any GOOD customer who solicts bids based on somebody elses work.
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I said (typed) consumer, not customer.Coinless is most likely looking at spending more money than they can pay off in 30 years. I certainly don't see how it could be out of line to talk to some other builders. The matter of the design, is a detail that needs to be addressed, but to have the attitude of stick with this builder no matter what is scary, what if this is the lowball corner cutter that has been described so eloquently above.
Sorry for misreading.
I don't have any proiblem with Coinless talking to other builders.
It is shopping the first builders work around. Unfortunately, we are all in the dark about the details of the relationship since Coinless has not conmtinued in the conversation. all we can do is batt speculative scenarios around...Needsless to say tho, she/he has had the basic Q answered, by seeing that there are opposing opinions and that she/he is very likely to encounter some sort of opposition on some front. One thing I noted but did not mention is that Coinless has a max of three builders to consider and choose from. The original builder is well liked in town. This leads me to conclude that this is in a small town. If so, it will not take long to discover that she/he has need of finding yet an out of town byuilder who could well be even more expensive than the three under consideration.I've seen small towns where everyone is at each others throat in politics and in competition for business, to the harm of all - and other small towns where everyone co-operates, for the good of all. I suppose there are plenty where things are somewhere in between, but it's always the extremes that stick in your mind.
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You observed that "Coinless has not continued in the conversation."
She's apparently around, but mostly lurking. She stepped in to ask that square foot question of me just today.
She doesn't seem willing, though, to fill in the blanks for her relationship with this design/build GC. It's strange.
We also know nothing about her locale, which might be useful information in assessing whether her desired approach might work for her.
I am with you, Matt, in your view of how to get competitive bids, and also your view of how many Breaktime regulars seem to "not get it" when it comes to understanding the competitive nature of most all new-construction custom housebuilding.
There have been, and will be, statements made here that no matter how elaborately detailed the plans and specs may be, no matter how tightly the contract ties the builder to the documents, no matter how closely an owner's rep, or architect, or project manager, or the owner himself monitors construction, that two builders will build two entirely different houses. I strongly disagree.
I understand too, how some schlock, some unscrupulous corner-cutter of a builder, some scumbag, can throw you a price on a half-baked set of plans and specs docs, and then proceed to give you his own vague interpretation of the house, with half the details you thought you were going to get, and far less quality. That's the buyer's fault for not diligently prequalifying bidders, and for producing a half-azzed set of bid docs.
What in the world is so doggone special about most aspects of housebuilding, that neither documents can define it, nor two tradesmen execute it the same? Beats me!
If a person can replicate a Vermeer painting that will fool the curators into thinking it's a genuine, then one qualified trim carp can execute a crownmold installation to replicate another guy's work.
Furthermore, to prove that claim that two GCs will produce far different jobs using the same set of docs and contracts, one would have to build the two, side by side, and then let the client examine both, during construction and after. When has that been done?
And if it were done, and done using the complete set of docs I envision, and the prequalifying of GC bidders I would insist upon, my guess is that the client would be well satisfied with either of those side-by side twin houses.
Furthermore, to prove that claim that two GCs will produce far different jobs using the same set of docs and contracts, one would have to build the two, side by side, and then let the client examine both, during construction and after. When has that been done?
Without building knowledge clients rely on their own intuition to interpret what they see, for better or worse.
It's the same human nature quirk that makes stray nails in framing seem so alarming to clients as if a misplaced nail automatically means there's a critical connection missing that same nail.
On the surface most clients don't immediately notice quality problems and even if they can see them can't vocalize what it is that's wrong, they just know something isn't right. Other quality problems seem fine on the surface and the client simply doesn't recognize the telltale signs of poor quality that many of us at BT do.
Over the lifetime of the building most, if not all, of those quality issues will raise their heads. Squeaks, uneven floors, cracks, excess settling, drafts, binding doors, uneven reveals, mold, water leaks, high heating/cooling bills, high maintenance costs, low service life of materials, easily damaged trim, cabinets that don't work properly, etc.
Locally, few custom builders think beyond a few years when their warrantee runs out because clients are oblivious to 90% of what constitutes long-term quality.
There is no way a client would know that a foundation was short changed with less rebar, inadequate waterproofing, poor soil compaction, inadequate footer width, no concrete consolidation, or a lower grade of concrete than was spec'ed until a failure occures way down the road. A builder can easily save $1,000 by simply cutting corners on the foundation, let alone the rest of the structure.
Every town seems to have a builder that pulls rebar from footers after the inspection passes.
It's also a myth that a stringent set of specs will always save the client from a poor quality builder set on saving a few bucks, unless there is an outside source to police the builders. Field inspections by building officials rarely are involved enough to rat out quality issues unless they are really obvious. We all know ways to hide problems to pass inspections, but the better builders don't hide issues they fix them.
Remodelers are in the best place to see the results of poor construction years down the road when those problems pop up. Sometimes it's only a few years and sometimes it's a few decades, but those problems do pop up, or by definition we wouldn't be calling them problems.
Without naming a brand how many car buyers simply go into a dealership and request a midsized 4-door car with a 2L engine, leather interior and a list of dimentions and gadgets from a set of plans no more detailed than most architectural drawings?
Given such a request how many dealers would fill the order with the same make and model vehicle? Few. How many clients would be happy choosing a car based on a set of plans? None.
The great quandry of quality construction is how to save the client from themselves and build a solid house with the many hidden strengths that will never be appreciated or acknowledged.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Let's say, Don, that you have just had a frontal lobotomy, and you are now a firm believer that you are best served, in having your new custom home built, by a process that selects a GC with the competitive bidding method.
Tell us exactly, how you would carefully prequalify those three or four GCs, all of whom are willing to bid.
That is all nicely written, and from your background in commercial work, partly, maybe mostly true.But not nearly the case in the sort of scenario this coinless OP is presenting. Barely true in most residential custom work. This OP is trying to save money and not use an architect. But the only way they will have the sort of complete drawings, notes, and specifications you imagine is to hire an excellent well qualified architect.There goes the budget.
And the only builders goinf for it will be doing one of two things. They will be including their bid time preparing it in the cost of the job, or they will the lowballers who will purposely bid low and cover themselves later.In the real world, in custom homebuilding, your imaginative scenario does not often come to pass. When it does, it is a very expensive process, not a compeetitive one. The costs are passed on to the customer.Regarding competition in general, there are the builders who are best and name their terms - generally fair ones, then there are those who can only compete on price at the far end, and some in the middle who have some value in their pricing, and some decent quality.But in the real world of residential construction, you will not get two or three builders to build the same home even if you could spec the details to that degree that you envision..
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Do you build new homes? If so, how many in the last 3 years, and how would you describe the market you deliver your product to vs other US new home markets?
Currently, I do not build new homes.But I have and in thirty five years of residential construction I have seen enough of all sides to know what I am talking about
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That Susanka-designed thing I did for a client last year, the one with the eyebrow roof over its porch, was certainly a custom, even though it was built from purchased plans.
To see whether the house would work for the client, I was able to get them a tour of the prototype in Stowe, VT, the house pictured in Susanka's book, seen at her website, and shown in a FH article. It had been competitively bid, and I looked very close at the details. Everything had been done per the plans, and it was exquisite work.
I was the first one to build a copy of the place, after the plans became available for sale, and the plans seller has put a half dozen folks in touch with me, people who were plans buyers, and had some questions about things. Of those six, four were having the jobs done by builders who were awarded the job after competitive bidding.
There is a real world out there in residential construction, one in which well-respected quality builders competitively bid projects, and execute them as they are detailed and specified. The world begins at the far end of your ferry ride to the mainland, and goes on for thousands of miles.
Edited 10/22/2006 11:07 am ET by Gene_Davis
I loved the Not so Big series. Any idea what that house was per ft?Do most custom builders charge so much per a/c sf, covered porches, then garage? This builder starts at $67/ft ac, $28/ft covered porch, $30/ft garage. I know it depends on what everyone's base includes, but is it typical to have 3 different prices per ft?
I never even think of square-foot pricing.
Those square foot prices that you quoted are typically what the permit offices in my area quote for permit prices, which are based on square footages. And since permit offices are getting numerous permits for cookie cutter national builders, that is typically not a good number for custom builder's to follow. I know that I probably could not build a custom home for prices of that nature, but then again I am usually in a market with a higher price point that what you mentioned. My two cents worth is that a miscellaneous square foot price like that is not the most accurate bidding situation. If you are tying to compare typical square foot build prices from GC to GC you are once again getting away from the apples to apples principle. Also, you said something in your initial note about GCing the build yourself; why don't you bid the project yourself and see how your numbers compare with your builders? Remember that your time is worth something as well in order to get an accurate comparison. I think that you will find your answers will be interesting.
>>Do most custom builders charge so much per a/c sf, covered porches, then garage? << "a/c sf" - sounds like you are in the deep south...
I am by far less of a custom builder than Gene - actually I'm a construction manager, and I can tell you that I do think in terms of sq ft prices, although for every bid I still have to do all the estimates. You gotta be very careful using sq ft prices though, and the only way it is at all useful is if you have a true apples to apples comparison. Where I build, as far as I know, sq ft prices are not used to price homes for prospective clients, but can be used to prequalify clients, make sure they have realistic expectations, and to give them an idea of what to expect. It can be useful though in comparing the value that one builder delivers vs another.
Further, home prices vary wildly through out the US, Canada, etc. Did you tell us where you are going to have this house built? I am in an area that has relatively low housing costs. That said, for >> $67/ft ac, $28/ft covered porch, $30/ft garage. <<, you aren't going to get a true a custom - unless you live in an area where people work very cheaply. BTW - I'm assuming we are talking land not included. I guessing that those prices would include things like "builder grade" appliances, laminate counter tops, vinyl kitchen and bat floors, economy cabinets, 25 yr asphalt shingles, very little if any brick, stone, etc, and yes it is common to assign different values for heated, garage and open/covered areas.
Anyway, take a look at this post and the maybe 15 posts after it:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=67972.427
BTW - if you look real hard you may likely find an estimating service or 2 in your area that can do a complete estimate for $400 or $600. You must have complete plans and specs though.
That depends on what the meaning of typical is.
There is almost nothing but custom building here, gene, and I have not always lived on an island. You are talking about one house and a copycat version at that, that had been built already with known details and materials quantity, a far cry from custom wortk b yan original desigfner which this OP has described. Yous eem to be questioning MY credentials for this opinion when you just started doing this a few years ago and learned half of what you know to pertain to these things right here. You can have your opinion and I mine, but don't come off like I don't know beqans about residential construction. I have been in it all my life and have already seen it all.
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It's a new house, Pif, that we are talking about here, and one to be built (we know now) in a state hit hard by the housing downturn, one in which many builders who previously wouldn't look at this job, considering its background, now will.
Coinless seems to be saying that the design build guy has his eyes wide open here, and knows that he may only get the design part, and not the build.
What he needs to get, if he wants to get truly comparable bids, is a really complete set of drawings, something that a design build GC isn't likely to produce, then a quite comprehensive set of specs, including the specifics on all products to be used in the build. Right down to the cabinet knobs and pulls.
If he is willing to look, he can probably find someone local who can do up that part of the bid package for him.
I know you think this is a dark science, and that no matter what, no two builders can deliver the same house, no matter what, but I still disagree.
This stuff goes on on the commercial side of contracting, too, and it's not too different from residential. A GC will always prefer to negotiate a job, versus competitively bidding it.
"What he needs to get, if he wants to get truly comparable bids, is a really complete set of drawings, something that a design build GC isn't likely to produce, then a quite comprehensive set of specs, including the specifics on all products to be used in the build. Right down to the cabinet knobs and pulls."we are back in agreement here.my point is that by the time this happens, he has spent his dime that he thought he would save
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Maybe not. We'll see.
A Saturday spent in a good library, and he can come away with a highly detailed spec proforma, something he can then take to a good lumberyard, and if they will work with a HO like at least one of the yards here will, they can help him get it down to where it looks like a real one for his own local conditions. Our local building inspector would do the same for a newbie.
But you are right, it's probably way too much work, and he was probably thinking all it would take was some phone calls.
This is one that has taught me never again to make a gender assumption when the poster has a blank profile. I coulda sworn the guy was a girl. It's got me humming that old Kinks song. You know the one?
right on the tip of my hummer, LOL
Same here on the gender
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my point is that by the time this happens, he has spent his dime that he thought he would save
Let me see if I'm tracking the calculus I think you are suggesting:
5500 @ 150 for 825 000
Land for 41 000
design fees of 60 000
Permit fees 20 000
or 946 000
And OP is hoping for:
5500 @ 67 bumped to oh 80-85 for 467 500
If we call that a half mill, land would be 25K; about 25-30K in design fees, and then another 10-12k in fees & permits, is $550-570K--or about what a low-mid range tract house of about 2800-3200 sf goes for in the Frisco-Plano area.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
But in the real world of residential construction, you will not get two or three builders to build the same home even if you could spec the details to that degree that you envision..
I don't entirely agree with that statment. Around here, many of the builders use the same subs. Each sub does things the same way. In the end, the houses are the same. The only difference is in the paperwork.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
Pardon me if it has been addressed already but are you under any sort of contract with the builder as he is preparing your plans?
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Here are a few answers. My wife and I have no contract verbal or written. We are at the design phase and are working towards a final cost for the project. The builders assistant has the floorplans complete with a elevation that needs reworking. We are waiting to see the final cost before deceiding whether to purchase the plans and do it ourselves or just going for it. We live in North Texas. "Coinless" has nothing to do with my financial status.We've seen too many houses just miss it at the design level and don't want to screw it up by going with the cheepest or most expensive. Who needs the "perfect" house that they can't afford?
I am a homebuilder/GC in Utah and I can tell you the following:
Finding the right builder for you is more of an art than a science. I would advise you to rely on such things as: What do you know of this builder's reputation and workmanship?; what kind of service and attention do you receive from this individual or company?---this may indicate what kind of service you'll receive after you've entered into an agreement; how do you feel about this individual or organization?
If all of the above is favorable, then let that company work with you and your budget as a partner---it's the only way I know that works.
Building a home is not like buying a car. For as much as you want companies to compete on the front end to get as much "value" as possible, it will never truly be the same experience or product.
Last but not least. Don't build the home yourself unless you want to pay more, have (typically) lower quality construction, and learn some lessons from the school of hard knocks.
A friend of mine that built his own home recently told me: " you guys earn every penny." I just smiled. And this individual is a skilled concrete professional, not somebody with no background in the profession.
Good luck---and good luck to your builder.
Have you looked at houses that you like in the area that you want to build ? Have you contacted HO's to look and inspect completed homes?Have you visited homes that your D/B,G/C has completed?
Talked to his customers?If you have never GC'd a project before you will have a hard time coordinating trades and scheduling the work.
If you have deep pockets and are building this as a hobby, Best wishes.You need one set of plans fo all contractors to bid on. A "Specification addendum " must be included. Also request a schedule of values.Is the D/B,G/C open to value engineering?Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
We have talked with several and all were pleased. He has built a few in our area and has a neighborhood he is developing. We like the design and the feel of his work.We like a south texas ranch style house and want a metal roof but man they are expensive. Like $20,000 additonal. With this and other upgrades we are looking for ways to save to get what we want.
The prices you mentioned were already extremely rare for this part of the country. Texas labour costs are far less so you have quite a value already. Almost no custom builders use square foot pricing. That can only be derived after a house is built once or twice. the prices you reported are that he STARTS at thus and so. That is a bare minimum. That may explain why the roof upgrade is so high. This would be an extremely large house to bring in a cost of an added 20K on a simple Texas Ranch. What kind of metal roof are you thinking off? There are metal roofs and there are metal roofs.Cars are made from metal too, but there are cars you can buy for under 14K and others that run you over 100K.
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That is where it starts and you then add upgrades like wood floors, metal roof, commercial applicances, stone walls, stain grade trim, etc. Metal roof like a normal metal roof for a house. 5,500 sf total slab.
A "normal metal roof for a house"There are two basic types of residential metal roofs. They come in 2-3 different gauge of steel, if steel is it. Sometimes it is copper.
Then there are 2-3 different grades of finish paint. That changes the price too. So within your general description, there are at least ten or twelve varying prices ranging plus or minus ten thousand bucks from that 20K figure.There is the plain corrugated galvanized common down in Florida all the way up to a standing seam copper found in eastern cities.You might be talking about the exposed fastener painted steel style with ribs at about 9" OC common in the western states. it can be had in 24. 26, or 29 gauge steel, and with two different grades of finish paint and coating.See how many variables in just one single part of this project? That price is apparantly his rock bottom economy model. Whether the roof upgrade is worth another 20K is impossibleto say based on a "normal metal roof" Do yourself a favor and do not try to GC this job.Others have said what I'll re-iterate, It is obvious that you do not have anywhere near enopugh knowledge to GC this yourself. You really do need a builder with a good rep that you can instinctively trust, not based on price. Proceed on that basis.
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The builder didn't mention any of the multitude of options you laid out. His comment was that they hadn't done many because the few they did were so expensive. Maybe he should have got mutiple bids??? :)
Glad to see you still smiling.You are still holding way toomuch information too close to your vest to get much good out of this forum, IMO.
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Since we don't completed plan this was only a quote from the hip. He had done a couple and talked with others (friends, family, etc) that had a metal roof installed. I've shared everything I know thus far... I think.
There simply is no way for us to judge whether or not 20k is a lot or a little for a 'normal metal roof' for your 5500 sf on slab house.
Piffin has already told you about the many choices of metal roofs available. He didn't even mention them all.
Also, there are many different configurations of roofs that could be designed for any house, from the most simple to extremely complicated.
Simple roofs, not too steep - much different price from tricky, steep roof, even with the same material. The material quantity required could also be substantially different for different designs.
These issues can be resolved by a complete set of plans, of course - that's where you came in.
You need to communicate with the builder you are dealing with , offer to pay for design service. However you get there, get a very complete set of plans, hopefully designed to your budget (no guarantee there) and then you can start shopping.
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I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe
Edited 10/22/2006 10:39 pm by Heck
Texas labour costs are far less so you have quite a value already
Yeah, $67/ft for a/c is very close to break-even for most of north Texas (call that the 8-12 counties around DFW--north of Denton, out toward Sherman or Weatherford, that'd be some less, but not much). That's stick (2x4 R17) built on slab-on-grade, too, maybe, just maybe 2x6 R19, but would need black diamond spacing, and real cheap returns for the windows.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
and want a metal roof but man they are expensive. Like $20,000 additonal
That sticker shock happens sometimes.
You are also talking about a roof that could well outlast two mortgages, too. Versus 3-4 'conventional' roofs. Maybe. Perhaps.
Hard to call if the people with the most experience in metal roofs are more expensive than those with the least. A metal roof specialist is unlikely to ever see your house ever again having done a good job (barring a 50 or 100-year hail storm, but north Texas jsut had three of those in the decade). A "regular" roofing guy will not "go" as fast in metal, or will hire out the metal part--either increases costs.
That gets back to how some builders can be better than others, but in specific ways. I used to have a whiz at metal roofs (v-drip; PEMB; standing seam; coil-form too) gown in Fredricksburg, but he's retired now (tough sledding at 45). For the "farm-look" stuff we used to do in the Austin area, there wasn't anybody who could beat our price for metal roofs without being fly-by-night/crooked/or some similar. If a customer wanted mexican tile--well, that had to be hired out, and was way more expensive.
These are exactly the subtle sorts of details that have made this discussion go, what, 4-5 "pages" so far?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Value engineering. In residential construction I find that being done too much by builders who may be intending to save the Owner some money, but are not willing to discuss it with the architect, provide any "engineering calculations" to back their argument, and are unwilling to accept the architect's decision, and claims to the Owner "they will find another professional to sign off on that." Real value engineering only works when the builder and architect are involved together from the begining.
That is one of the advantages of using a design/build firm.But in this case, it appears as tho the owner wants to back into this thing by using the design/builder as an architect.
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Piffen,
O.P. mentioned a couple interesting figures
5500 sq. ft house? $20,000 upgrade for metal roof
sooooo, assuming a minimum of 4/12 pitch we already have waaaay over 55 squares of roofing. Texas Ranch, I assume indicates wide overhangs?????? that 5500 sq. ft house has a honkin big roof( from my perspective)
Base model roof------possibly installed by 8 south of the border types in ONE day-----
$20,000 upgrade to metal ????? Requires dedicated truck with machinery to site-fab panels?---much more skilled personel-------- I am suprised the upgrade is ONLY $20,000 LOL
Not that I would get involved in new construction--- but personally I could bump the price $20,000 simply by moving from 25 year shingles installed by " los hombres" to 50 year shingles with all the accessories installed by "yours truly"---and we haven't even GOT to metal yet LOL
Stephen
Yeah, it's maybe up to 300/sq more.Texas has more hip roofs on their ranches too, which can drasticly increase waste for metal.Like I said, this can change price anywhere from ten to thirty grand depending...
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That simple little copycat thing I did, had a roof with six hipped ends, and a 65 square roof area. I took three quotes from metal roofing subs, and my price option for the clients to go with that over Iko Chateau archy asphalts was $29K.
This, for a 24 gage standing seam factory finish (Kynar) on galvalume. And that price quote is over two years old, done before the recent run up in steel pricing.
A SS metal roof, usually with seam spacing on 16 to 20 inch centers, is what you will see on the typical FL or TX custom home. I've not seen much ag panel, which is what the biz usually calls 26 to 29 gage ribbed stuff thrown up with exposed fasteners, used on housing at the level where custom plans are drawn.
honest question for you folks actually involved in new construction( which I avoid like the plague LOL)
prospective customer approaches you----a respected local builder--" hey, I really like your work and i am hoping to build a new home,etc.------I am thinking I would like the house to include X,Y,Z,W,G---blah,blah,blah"
so---you design a prospective house and plans for YOUR company to build---along with a proposed price
customer says " Whoa----thats more than I thought it would be"---and the customer wants to ( naturally) price shop
my question----why on EARTH would you allow this?---and even if the " customer offers to buy your plans----why on EARTH would you sell them ?
In fact--- wouldn't you structure the arrangement from the VERY beginning that you are to be paid for your time designing this----but that the design is for YOUR company to execute---and as such belongs to YOU ?
Even in my small segment of the market( roofing)---where a proposal takes me about an hour---- I go out of my way to insure that a prospective customer can NEVER make an "apples to apples" comparison. I don't phrase it that way to the customer--- but I take pains every step of the way to demonstrate that the customer is NEVER going to be able to duplicate my background,service,track record,reliability,attention to detail,inurance,workers comp, published articles,comparable projects throughout the neighborhood, specific materials and techniques etc.
I just assumed you guys would handle your designs/plans the same way???
stephen
As I started in designing, I told my customers that after paying for the design, they were welcome to use another builder on it. Leaving that door open for them also left an exit door open for me. An at will arrangement if you will....
The design process gave me time to assess the customer to know if we were a good fit and if I believed I could make a buck working with them.
I designed five and built four of those new homes.
In remo work I have designed about eight major projects and built six, IIRC. Of the ones I did not build, none were built at all. Since then two things have changed. I have become better at reading potential customers up front and sizing up how they will be, and passing on the looky loos.
the other thing is that I have learned that I might well incour great liability by allowing others to build from my design work. I'll pass on that.But meanwhile, I have NEVER allowed my plans to remain in the customer's hands in an unfinished or finished form without being paid in full.
One means I use in protecting the concept prints is to use the CAD features to 'hide' dimensions in print versions and to only print to unknown scales. For instance, if a good print size and scale would be quarter inh to the foot, I might scale the concept drawing at .277 or .233 instead of .25. I also label them as not for building.
The incongruety of discovering that the print and the scale in your hand don't make sense will drive you batty. But in my digital originals,I have all the right info and can print accurately to paper.Most of my communications with clients is via e-mail. We have initial conferences during summer when they are here, but most of them are gone during winter as we move forward. Pdf documentation offers some security also.In this thread, my impressions have been directed to and about Coinless who is th eone requesting the info. But on the subject or POV you bring up, I think the design builder offering to design up front with no commitment or argreement for payment in place is placing himself in harms way and I offer no sympathy in his direction. But I also think this may be in part the near the border thinking that keeps prices low down there.
Every one is looking over the shoulder for the guy willing to undercut his price. This builder is probably offering design services as a way to add value to his offerings. From what we read, he does not see design per see as a profit center. He uses it instead as a loss leader.
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This builder is probably offering design services as a way to add value to his offerings. From what we read, he does not see design per see as a profit center. He uses it instead as a loss leader
That pretty much sums up the typical "custom" builder that I encounter out in the suburbs here. Their "custom" designs are nothing more than base plans with several elevation choices. When they really want to customize, they break out the red ink pen LOL!
I suspect that Coinless is working with one of these "custom" designs.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
Stephen... it took me years to figure out how i would handle Design . Build.. the way we finally wound up doing it is thus:
we meet and discuss their project... develop the parameters .... set a target budget
next meeting i present a Design Proposal if they accept , the we will do the design and the final design will include a price to build
they will make progress payments for the design
one of the clauses is that wether or not they choose to hire us as their builder, we are the only ones who can build from those plans
if they do not hire us as the builder , they can keep the plans FOR CONCEPTUAL PURPOSES ONLY, not for construction.. they must have their plans redesigned by someone else if they don't hire us as the builder
if they like the plans , and they like our price, then we sign a Construction Contract.. and i have all of the liability for both the design and the construction
but as a designer, and not carrying Errors & Omissions Insurance, i don't want the liability of someone else building from our plans
as the builder, i own the liability anyways , so it doesn't matter
so... it's typically a two -step process: step 1- Design
step 2 - Build...
and most Design/Build firms that I know of, wind up with a process similar to ours.Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, interesting write-up. I foresee heading in that direction also.
I have worked for two d/b firms and the process was like yours, with an extra step... preliminary design vs. final design.
The owner signed an agreement for preliminary design. The GC and his archy (actually employed by the GC in both cases) went out, talked to the owners, measured the place, etc. From that the archy produced 3-4 simple floor plans showing alternative possibilities. IF the owner liked one of those (or a combination of more than one), then the process continued to final design, where the archy drew up a permit set and the GC produced a fixed price to build.
I don't know what would happen if the owner didn't hire the GC to do the job... it never happened... we always built them. I do know of one case where the owner chose not to proceed from preliminary to final design. They were in about $2000 at that point. I think they never did anything....
It was a great process from my perspective as PM. I had the designer in the next room, and in both cases he was a good designer, on the young side, not ready to go solo, and getting direction from a seasoned GC. There is nothing quite like running a job where I can call the architect from the field and he stops by 20 minutes later to figure something out. The owner always LOVES that.
there is a side benefit... you do get to upgrade your computers and software everytime they come out with a new version
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
LOL, You have enough daughters and wives to keep the old PCs in action?
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thank you Mike.
Piffen kind of answered it---but not exactly-----or at least he didn't tell me what I want to hear LOL
Frankly I hadn't even considered the liability issue
I was thinking along 3 lines-----
1) architect designs----he is intersted in the design------ who actually builds it is of less concern to him---- he is in the business of designing---that's what he sells, the design
2) builder---- builds. he wants to build the project---- THAT'S what HE sells. he may prefer some designers/architects etc---- but he is interested in the actual building
3) design/build--------- that's where it gets muddy in my thinking. Seems like trying to provide one stop shopping. good idea---but ideally---you want to design the project for YOU to build. you are not interested in putting the design effort into designing a project for someone ELSE to build.---so my selfish/snotty/argumentative attitude would be we design the project for US to build--------If prospect wants input from other builders------------ let them sweat working up their OWN designs---'cause these are ours LOL---------
mike, seems like you have devised an infinitely more polite and refined version of what I would instinctively do.
O.P. offers to buy the plans---in order to shop 'em around????--- he can offer--- but I don't see why I would sell 'em---- I guess that's what I can't wrap my head around--- why WOULD I even consider selling 'em ?
( and that's BEFORE I considered the liability)
thanks again Mike---and you also Piffen,
Stephen
"so my selfish/snotty/argumentative attitude would be we design the project for US to build-----"Steve, no real reason attitude should enter in here. I have been arguing thru the thread that no two outfits will build the same custom house.Blue pointed out that everything his way is built the same by different crews, but that is not custom building. Not any more than a Ford 'Custom' F-100 has been ccustomized to the indiviudual driver. In a custom design, the home is wrapped around the intended owner, and many of the details involved are based on how a particular crew works. I have often thought about how if I were erecting and finishing the job, I would have to leave out a lot of the details that are routinely included with my guys. It would become less custom and more generic. Fact of life
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exactly..... the very thought that a tract house is "custom" is kinda ludicrous ( did i speel that right ? )
no matter how big.. or fancy... if it ain't designed for that customer, how can it be "custom"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
no matter how big.. or fancy... if it ain't designed for that customer, how can it be "custom"
Around here, a custom builder is a builder that allows the homeowner to make changes. Big changes or small changes, it's still "custom". There are many builders (Pulte, etc) that do not allow any changes. If the plans say the room is 12', it WILL BE 12'!
I would agree that there are multiple degrees and descriptions of "custom".
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
a custom home is a one-off, a prototype.... never been built before
"customized" is a marketing term...
even Gene's reproduction of a Suzan Prohansky design is not a custom home....
i don't think there is a lot of wiggle room for a true definition of a "custom home"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
don't think there is a lot of wiggle room for a true definition of a "custom home
Given your definition of the term Mike, I agree.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
O.P. offers to buy the plans---in order to shop 'em around????--- he can offer--- but I don't see why I would sell 'em---- I guess that's what I can't wrap my head around--- why WOULD I even consider selling 'em ?
I wouldn't hesitate to sell them, because the profit is already built into the process.
The plans that I'd be selling wouldn't have the final engineering, so liability wouldn't be an issue.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
a minimum of 4/12 pitch we already
Hmm, if it's classic "texas farm" it's probably 6/12 and no dormers, or a 12/12 and 3-4 doghouse dormers. But, the only hips are for bump-outs and/or hips. Which can actually be a snap to roof out, even in double v-drip <g> (well, helps to have a pro about CU's caliber about, too).
Normally, I would double the roof squares for porch roofs, but at 5500, that's a pretty bif single-story footprint. If it's story-and-a-half, in the classic style, that's a little different.
But, I'm biased in this, too--most of the "farm-styles" we did were about 60/40 footprint/porch in the 1900-2500 first floor range. Coinless' house is twice what my first thoughts tend to be (and closer to the "hacienda style" than "farm" in my old brain).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I think every contract should be AIA or a similar format. Unfortunately some owners hire the Architect for design only. This prevents the submittal process from being professionally handled.live, work, build, ...better with wood
We've seen too many houses just miss it at the design level and don't want to screw it up by going with the cheepest or most expensive. Who needs the "perfect" house that they can't afford?
On that statement alone I will strongly suggest that you need to be paying someone to do a design for you that will work within budget that you are willing to state up front.
Why are you being so selective with who it is here that you interact with?
Do you wish to receive answers to your questions or do you just want to hear what you want people to agree with your assumptooins and conjecture?
Eric
[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Edited 10/22/2006 10:05 pm ET by EricPaulson
Your cut/paste is stuck on the quote from another thread edit - fixed now
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Edited 10/22/2006 10:25 pm ET by Piffin
Thanks.
I've been unusally active here today.
I musta got lost...............[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Isn't this how big projects like the WTC get done?
Yes, and no. A large project like that is typically designed (plans drawn & finalized) first; then the plans made available to contractors to then price. That way, the contractors are all, literally, on the same page.
Residential work is a little bit unique in this regard (and more than some ill-served in some cases, too, thereby) where a party goes to a builder and "expects" (in varying degrees, amounts, desires, etc.) all sorts of services--and that those services are uniform across all builders.
(Search "mcmansion" here for the range of expectations and desires and differences between all the various parties possible--caution, this will be many, many, many threads & posts.)
Now, comparing a D-B (Design-Build) contractor to a "plain" contractor makes an unfair comparision. The D-B is also providing you a set of plans (and, presumably, all of the permitting also needed, too). The "plain" GC works from finished (or so the GC generally hopes) plans to produce either a bid or a finished building.
Now, should you invest in a finished set of plans? I don't know. Some of that answer will come down to whether you want a "dream" house, or merely a custom one (meaning to your spec, not builder's spec). Some builders can provide the design services; some cannot.
You will have seen that there is more than some discussion about business model/practice with this issue. A very nice thing about running a D-B business is that you can build from anybody's plans, but you can often build from your own desings better--either way you are building (generating revenue--the goal of all businesses). Whether a frim ought, or must, charge design fees, that's an issue that gets thorny, quick, even among peers.
After all, you absolutely do not want to have a builder who submits plans to the truss plant on a hunk of cardboard (it's happened, jsut ask BossHog).
Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Everyone seems to be missing a key phrase from the OP. He said he was willing to pay for the plans. If he pays, is it wrong to ask others to bid on them?
This is wrong on so many levels.
#1 - You should not even consider shopping this around wiithout his approval. And once he knows what you are doing, the relationship is ruined, Did you shop around for a prom date when you were already going steady?
#2 - Any other builder willing to spend a week of their life to come up witha "competitive bid" based on this guys drawings is NOT going to be especially trustworthy. They will want to know that he has been paid for the design process and that he has released the design for construction.
#3 - For you to use him in this way implies that he is doing stand alone design work instead of design/build. I have done both in the past, but have become aware that if I do design only for others to build from, I incur a tremendous potential liability, one I am not willing to take. In many states, it would be illegal for him to do architectural design for others to build from.
#4 - If I were one of those other builders, I would wonder about you. You are willing to waste a week of my time to prepare you a bid only for purposes of comparing to hios, with no intention to use my services.
#5 - The very best advice for building a custom home is to find exactly the sort of builder you have described. Then build a relationship with him. You seem too willing to imply that you do not trust his pricing structure. Keep in mind that a good builder is not expensive. He is priceless.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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Pif, I disagree with your point #5, although as a seller of building services and not a buyer, I want all customers to come to me that way.
Unless the buyer is planning a very special house with details and features that absolutely could not be executed by any other than one particular builder, a custom home package can be competetively quoted, and then executed with satisfaction to the buyer, by many well-qualified builders.
There are many of us Breaktimers who live in the rarefied air of no-bid land, but all across this great land of ours, there are many very well-respected custom home builders who competitively bid jobs all the time.
I would never presume to speak for Piffin but I don't think we are suggesting a blank check be given to this builder.You are correct that there are many good builders out there who can put together a house from a plan. Dealing with someone who offers more wisdom, great ideas, amazing subs and other connections makes your whole experiece as the homeowner better. Building a house can be a difficult process. We want to make it one of the more enjoyable ones."There is no good answer to a stupid question"
Russian saying
Ah, but there is the owner's dilemma. If the builder is talking, say, $500K, then how does the owner know whether he can get the same, or even better, experience and end-product for even less?
Save just ten percent, and there's your new Lexus. May not mean much to you, but to some, that's real money.
Look. A lot of owners just say "I'll trust my gut and go with this one and only guy," and then have a great ride, get a great house, make a new friend to boot. They don't even think about whether they could have gotten the same or better for less, by going elsewhere.
But it takes all kinds to make the world go around. Many other people just cannot stand the idea of saying "yes," without a price check. For those folks, a little more work is required.
Sorry, but we've hijacked this thread. I kinda thought it would happen.
If that's what they gotta do to feel comfortable, they need to say that up front._______________________________________________________________
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C'mon, Heck, gimme a break. You've been there, haven't you? You think you're all comfy with someone, actually you still are, but that price tag just seems a whole lot higher than what you thought it might be.
And you know, you just know it for sure, that if you ask Mr. Number One builder for some way to get that price down, he or she is gonna say, "Sure, Heck, we'll get it down . . . by taking things out."
So, there you go, down the street, looking for that magic Mr. Number Two, the guy who can give you the same package, maybe even a little more, for less money.
Did you ever lose out on a job, one that went to someone else for less, and then go back and look at the job when it's done, thinking you'll see nothing but hack work, you know, sort of "they got what they deserved," only to find out that . . . the work looked GREAT? REALLY great!
I have. It teaches you something. I'm not sure what, but it's something.
Sure I've been there. On both sides. What we are discussing here is the OP's question pertaining to his specific scenario: He has this company doing all the leg work and design work so that he can then go shop the bid.
I have no problem with competitive bidding when the field is level, say if the design was paid for by previous arrangement.
I find that many Owners have unrealist expectations about pricing. They want all the nice 'goodies' , and forget that hundreds turn into thousands in a hurry.
The OP said the first builder was reputable. He didn't get that way by overcharging all his customers.
I would be inclined to be up front about my shopping desires. If I was that surprised by the price, I would ask this accomplished builder just what was driving the price up, and decide if he was being honest with me.
Custom houses are not exactly commodities: No too are alike, not even the same house built by two different builders.
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This is Not the right way to go about getting a simple price check!
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" suggesting a blank check be given to this builder"not saying that in the least.Read the OPs description of this builder
Now think, how many times have we seen a new poster here describe their builder in such glowing terms
A how many times do we hear the opposite?
Probably three times as many complaints as good words like this...Good builders are hard to find. She has one. Why think of changing horses in the middle of the stream, possibly screwing him in the process?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>> Read the OPs description of this builderNow think, how many times have we seen a new poster here describe their builder in such glowing termsA how many times do we hear the opposite?Probably three times as many complaints as good words like this... <<
I think 99% of home buyers start with this attitude. Then a few discolored boards get used, they find find a wall 3/8" out of plumb and now, not knowing what to look for, 40% of our perviously happy home buyers think their guy is a schumck.... Not saying that some don't have real concerns, but to gauge a guy's product delivery skills based on a prospective client's opinion is, well, you get the idea.
I think it's fine if this guy shops the competition just so he pays for the plans first.
"Keep in mind that a good builder is not expensive. He is priceless."
You gonna' copyright that?
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
naw, I heard it somewhere
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...and for everything else there's mastercard.
I've gotta get T-shirts made with that.
That could be said for any trade or skillset. You should make'em up. I'd buy a couple for a good friend of mine....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...... :0)
If you do decide to solicit other bids, realize that no two builders are going to build the exact same house from identical plans.
You would be farther ahead to look over past projects and speak to owners of these to find out what they have to say. It's all in the details and every builder has a different take on those details.
Unless you suspect the builder of trying to rip you off, you won't find any meaningful information in getting competitive bids.
You may find the information you need to decide by examining each builder's entire job on projects similar to yours.
Terry
WOW...
you are in a no win situation... eveything thats been said is 100% correct
I'm of the school.. i want to know what i'm paying for...
but in a custom house there is no way to know/list every detail a good builder will do and no two will do it the same... both might be great fine builders but the details will differ... what every good builder should know is what it will cost HIM to build it HIS way... and to make a profit... some builders build 3 houses a year some build 30 some shop material/labor price some don't...
I believe you can get about the same house, with the builder making the same profit and have a 10-20% difference in price...
you problem is that you had a builder do the design work invest time & money in your project and now you want to shop his bid/price... ouch...
let us know how this works out... because i can see no good way except to go with your current guy...
p
Yeah Gene, tell me again you want this customer.
Working well with him
but
the elevations are completely off the maark
Don't want to start over with an architect
but
ready to start over with another design build
Price is not the only consideration
but
willing to make them go head to head like as tho this house is the WTT
back to prequalifying
Good point
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Yeah, and now it's "maybe I'll even GC it myself."
This is all too much. I'm going over to YouTube. Seen "GPS Gang Bang" yet? Check out the guy's by-line. Hilarious.
You can always find a cheaper price once the next builder knows what the previous builder bid.
Someone will find a way to use cheaper materials or poor workmanship. When you have someone build a home for your family you are not just buying materials but trust as well.
I remember well years ago when a family asked me to give them a price for an 1800 square foot addition on their home. I gave them what I thought was a reasonable price. When I did not hear back from them for awhile I asked them about it. They told me that they figured my labor price was about double what someone else's was. When they told me the price I knew they were right if the other person would take the same amount of time. In the end, the person they went with, cost them more than what I bid and the job was not finished. About six months later I saw them in town and they told me that they wished they had gone with me. People who are not in the business usually have very little knowledge about it and il equipped to make good decisions.
Not getting other bids does NOT mean you are clueless about what something costs. In all areas there are rules of thumb about how much new construction costs per square foot. Of course you have to go up or down depending on how close to "average" your new home is.
Personally, I think getting bids is often a waste of time for everybody involved. I'm not saying everybody should be like this, but in my area, it's pretty unusual to find a good builder (or any professional, for that matter), that has a good reputation with others and you work well with. I would look at some other houses he's built, talk to other clients, and if everything in your gut says good, and the price is in line with the rules of thumb, just go with it.
Of course, I drive a Honda, not a Lexus, and have an extremely low hassle tolerance.
>> Personally, I think getting bids is often a waste of time for everybody involved. <<
Sound like you are most often the bidder rather than the bid soliciter :-)
The problem is you will never get an apples to apples price. Builders who draw plans usually draw just enough for a permit because they know what quality of materials they will use, efficiency of HVAC equipment, quality of plumbing and lighting fixtures, etc. Another builder will just be guessing at what he would put in your house based on his assumptions, therefore you're wasting your time thinking you'll get an accurate comparison. If the guy is good, go with him. If you want to get accurate bids you need a very detailed set of plans.
coinless,
There are ethics and there are laws. you run afoul of one while not breaking any laws with the other..
Ethically it is wrong to use one persons work to get a lower price.. The person who did the work should recieve compensation for his efforts..
However it is common practice and done at the highest corporate levels.. Plans are drawn up and then bids are requested based on those plans..
The wording in your post tells me that the plans are in progress but haven't been delivered yet.
I think you have a moral and ethical obligation to tell this builder that you plan to get other bids based on his plans. He then has the option of saying "Sure, go right ahead." - or charging for his planning time. The choice is his, but all the cards need to be on the table so he can make an informed decision.
My business is custom cabinetry and I would certainly feel betrayed if a "customer" started shopping my design around without my knowledge - or after I had quite a bit of time invested in the design work.
You'd better read up on your copyright laws. I'm assuming that dedicated person who drew up the plans is an architect. You can pay for the plans, but you can't have another architect work off those plans to create another set with his titleblock. You can't even have him look at that set to see what you like or don't like. It sounds rediculous, but the architect's design is his work product and is always owned by him/her. If the builder you've been originally working with is that good, you should be able to work with him to stay to your budget. His qualilty of work and reputation that proceeds your project is much more valuable than another builder with low ball subs that may or may not speak English or be legal period. Trust you initial research and instincts. At this point stay with the initial builder and architects.
I am a design/build custom builder. I will / do offer design services only, with a bid on the project. But, I have never lost a home that I have brought forth with care.
I ditto davidmeiland and the "don't do it" comments form Piffin. It seems you should know the market. If the builder is good and has given you a market price...stick with him.