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Ryan, I believe it is the mice they are trying to protect.
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I read with interest the early parts about Romex and rodents. I also am curious how big a problem the ol'rats chewing on wires thing actually is, inside wall cavities/attics/crawlspaces, which is to say, all those places where the NEC allows it to be used. If it is a problem, I like the idea of an outer sheath with a nasty taste that discourages chewing. While remodeling my 1951 home, I removed from the crawlspace some cable which looked just like Romex (NM) but the outer sheath was made of LEAD! It was feeding an outside box, but the cable was not exposed, nor did it seem newer or older than the cloth-covered cables going to the same j-box. I have never seen another piece of this, and neither has my electrician friend. The cable had a bare wire, so the sheath was not intended as a primary ground. My only guesses were that it was waterproof in the middle of run and perhaps distasteful to rodents, although certainly not hard enough to stop them mechanically. It was pretty thick, maybe a millimeter, and not easy to strip. Any ideas out there?
As for the flamefest, do not let it get in the way of the useful discourse, Bill Conner. I agree with those who hold that requiring EMT instead of Romex will likely do more harm than good, human nature being what it is. (And Greenfield is flat out a pain to deal with.) The fundamental problem underlying these citizen initiatives is that quality design and pride in craftsmanship are intangible commodities, impossible to legislate into existence. So standards are set, which are necessary, but standards do not have the power to alter human motivations. Here in Southern California, the construction industry is very tightly regulated...on paper. But a lot of the stuff that gets built is of very poor quality. Rules that seem unreasonable to the common man give rise to a robust underground.
Therefore, the citizen committee would do well to consider a multi-pronged approach with modest legislation as only one element, and education as another, and some sort of partnering with local contractors as another. There must be a cadre of good local people who are already sensitive to the special needs of your particular community, and who meet those needs for satisfied customers every day. You get my drift here. We at Breaktime are a fine resource, but your ultimate resource has to be local. Good luck and thanks for your courage in broaching a sensitive topic.
Bill B.
*
Screw codes....Freedom is everthing....
I have never seen a residential home fall down...and I never will...It's all BS...
And who the h*ll wants high property values????...I don't get that at all...I would love to have my home valued at zero and pay zero taxes....
near the stream thinking it's all big brother bullsh*t.
aj
*I used to say the same thing Jack! Why would we want our houses to go up, giving us a bigger tax bill. Sure we are rich on paper, but you can't eat the equity in your home.And after we hold onto the house for a zillion years, we'll be RICH! If we sell the house, we'll be so rich that we will be able to buy...ONE HOUSE!And if we don't buy another house, they'll tax you some more!What a rat race!blue
*ENT is only meant for imbedding in concrete or the like.Mike
*I've seen it snaked through steel stud walls - though I admit from under a slab to a device. Is that the extent to which it is permitted by the NEC?Thanks for info.
*eric.. up in post #29 we were talking about the small addtional cost of compliance..remember?((((((eric... there is nothing NOMINAL about the difference between a house wired with NEC approved devices and romex (NM)... and the same house with the same devices wired with EMT/CONDUIT and the associated boxes... since we don't use the latter in residential construction.. i will have to defer to my electrician when i see him.. don't forget.. every dollar of hard costs has to be marked up by the general to run the business.. so instead of a NOMINAL additional expense.. that little sentence in your propsed code represents a major upcharge....and we have very competitive electricians too.. )))))anyways i talked to him today, he says ... if a house cost $6000 to wire with NM (romex), then the same house would cost $11000 with EMT (conduit)and in the central core of Providence ,he does have to use alternative wiring...usually he is allowed to use MC (the new style of BX ) which would fall about half way between the cost of N & EMT..so once again.. this is before the GC has marked it up to include in the project..nothing nominal about it....this is a major impact on residential cost of construction....and all of the model codes recognize this .. they all have special codes for One & Two Family Dwellings....
*That sounds about right. I suspect that if, as is the case around here, all houses are wired with emt and its teh normal way of doing it, and romex was the exception, the difference would be slightly less but not much.So - I'm curious - what is a typical cost of the house for which the wiring in romex costs $6000?Average old house in this village is over $200k. One down the street - probably 1500 sq ft or so, 3 bd rm, 1.5 baths, early part of the century, farmhouse features, in nice condition and very tastefully painted and landscaped but not luxury or "victorian" - just sold for $410k - 20k over asking. (Probably still original knob and tube wiring!) There are a few new ones based on teardowns - a whole other regulation issue - and one not far from me just sold for $680K. In (much) further out burbs (which is the only place where there is much new construction) I see some lower cost developments advertised but most seem to start around $250-300k and upwards to $600k or so.
*Well - I suppose I should have anticipated this but I'm being lobbied. Rental owners don't like prohibition of key-key dead bolt (both sides keyed). 4 page letter attacking village for implimenting this and issuing violation notices (from reinspections of apartments).
*Well gee, Bill, you don't say ?Whooda thunk it ?I definately have to give you points for having the cahoneys to come back here and admit it after the shoddy treatment you were given by myself and some others.C'mon into the woodshed and lift a glass er a mug with us.
*So you think deadbolts that require a key to get out don't create an undo hazard in a fire in a owner occupied dwelling? How about in a rental?Personally, I like key-key but recognize the hazard and have explained it to my kids several times and am very careful to leave the key on the inside when we're home. But I suspect there are a significant number of folks that aren't so fastidous about fire safety.
*One of the problems inherent with the double key lockset is misplacing the key. No matter how careful you are there WILL be times, hopefully not at a critical time, that the key WILL NOT be in its assigned place. Human nature being what it is, THAT EVENT WILL HAPPEN.
*Oh no, I definately think there's an added fire hazard there. I don't have a key-key for just that reason. But.... As a homeowner I value the freedom to make that decision for myself. I can definately see the need to prohibit them in rental properties. The renters don't own the property and have very little choice when it comes to deciding the type of deadbolt. To err on the side of safety is in their favor. However, someone who owns their own property should not have prohibition of key-key shoved down their throat.You and I both had the freedom to choose which type of deadbolt we wanted. It just happens that you chose the type of deadbolt that your commitee is trying to prohibit, and I chose the one which would be permitted. It's too bad that some people would want to take the freedom of even such simple choices away from the homeowners in your village.
*Laws...laws...laws...save people from themselves...It's so stupid...Death is the result of life, not double keyed locks.Freedom anyone????Freedom lover, near the stream,aj
*I should note that the letter writer was particularily objecting to the fact that some 15 yrs previous the Village had encouraged the installation of these for crime prevention reasons and that breakins occur every couple of days and fires occur every 4 months.This was apparently a change to the staus quo and I suspect that should the building department - regardless of the non-binding recommendation of the commission I'm on - decide to permit romex, etc., that there would be a strong citizen reaction to the change in the status quo. Remember, romex, etc., has never been permitted in this community.
*I propose that all construction materials only be approved if made of 100% titanium. Except for electrical wire which must be pure gold.
*Has anyone sent Bill "ourlove"???? That'll keep em busy....near the anarchy of a wild untamed stream who's banks may ever change...may even add land to blue'saj
*Wait till I get to plumbing and building - you ain't seen nothing yet.
*
Well, I'm on a village building code comission - citizen advisory council so to speak. Village is revising their codes. A lot of Chicago influence here. So, the electrical inspector has recommended prohibiting use of romex, bx, se, as well as non-metalic conduit. Would like your thoughts on safety issues and, perhaps, on the idea of local amendments to NEC "to keep real estate values" up. (Stand by - plumbing is next - and in working on my house I still have to do dwv in cast iron.)
*I rennovate an 1890's house in the Fox River Valley some 15 years ago and the local electrical code said no romex, no BX, nothing but metal conduit (greenfield or EMT). I couldn't understand the logic of it all but the inspector told me it was because of possible rodent gnawing on the wire. He also indicated that conduit would allow for the wire to be more easily replaced but I had on hell of a time pulling two strands of #12 wire through 1/2" greenfield. I thought it silly because it presented a situation that almost necessitated that licensed electrians do all the work. I wonder how many homes have burned down because the old inadequate wiring could not be replaced because of prohibitive costs versus the damage inflicted by rodents in the walls. And in replacing the wiring, almost all of the second floor and most of the basement wiring was knob and tube (all exposed). Go figure! But then again the original lighting in the house was piped gas. the only way I was able to successfully rewire the house was because I stripped the lath and plaster to bare studs and worked in open framing.I would recommend getting statistics on fire causality from some reputable source and compare the numbers on romex versus pipe and use that as a basis of determination rather than following another city's ordinances. I was born in Chicago and lived my first twenty years under the benevolent despotism of Hiz Honor (Richard J. Daley). Seems to me that I remember that the trade unions had a considerable amount of influence because they delivered the votes.
*What value does conduit add to house value? To me, not as much as 12 ga over 14 ga would. Actually, I'd consider conduit an uneccessary pain. Commercial? Warehouse, exposed? Then use conduit. Residential? Maybe if not enclosed by drywall in a stud cavity, perhaps in a garage or basement. As to non-conduit being a risk, or value enhancer?I'd be suprised if the numbers would back it up. The insurance industry would have the risk numbers, and they would increase premiums without, or reduce premiums with conduit if it were truly a safety factor. My opinion.Do any appraisal institutions add value for conduit? Personally, I've never heard the subject broached. If value is added, does it exceed material or labor installation cost? If not, then it's costing the homeowner money when the house is sold.Our district (several small towns) released their '99 responses several weeks ago. They did breakdown the causes of fires. Elecrical had a few, but all due to fixture/appliance failures or wire connection failures in outlet boxes, or extension cords under carpets, etc. Small towns, so the base isn't large, but they also had numbers for over the past 20-odd (I think) years that were similar in percentile breakdown.Cast iron is a dying art out here, my supply house always comments when I've order it. For DWV I like it for portions of the DW, but never for V.
*Mongo - I like cast iron for it's acoustical properties but would like to use hubbless. It was quite interesting to figure out how to wye off a 4" cast stack with all leaded joints.
*Bill... this is yur chance to strike a blow for freedom and the american way..anytime u hear one of these guys proposing something...ask 'em WHY you should write a code that is going to deviate from a national or regional code..ask 'em why they wud want to impose on their citizens and taxpayers another set of beauracracy and expense when all of the issues they are addressing have already been hashed out by larger jurisdictions with greater access to professional input...you know this guy has no regard for others when he starts out by trying to ban romex in residential construction....there are many model codes to use as the guide..what a stupid situation when a licensed tradesman goes into some small burg and has to do things differently cause of some guy sitting on a board...
*Stanley made the two points I wanted to make. Damn.1) This will make upgrading too expensive and difficult and houses will burn down because of old wiring2) They'd need to give me actual statistics on fires caused by mouse chewing before I'd be convinced3) The city of South Brunswick, NJ has a reputation as being a hard ass when it comes to permits. A friend of mine owns a radio tower company and they will build radio towers anywhere in the Eastern United States...except South Brunswick, NJ. Don't be too much of a pain in the ass or contractors might just decide it's not worth it.
*You've got it, Bill...nothing like cast iron for "quiet flushes", etc. Hubless is a treat.
*Golly, remodeling will be a lot of fun if EMT is required! Imagine adding a backsplash switch for the addition of a garbage disposer... Easy enough with romex, but EMT?Too bad your locality can't simply adopt the same code as is used state-wide.FWIW, I'm a cast iron fan, since I like quiet flushes, BUT I feel that PVC is perfectly adequate for the DWV task. It's a matter of taste, not function. Some people like vinyl siding to match their PVC drains. That's cool... for them.Oh, well. Steve
*Thanks for responses.Re: remodeling and emt - flexible metal (greenfield?) is same as emt - but another amendment is requiring a separate ground in flexible, only required in NEC in lengths over 6' (right? 6' or something like that).I haven't installed it but it seems no-hub cast iron would be ideal compromise between value and expense for most homes - ones I'd live in anyway.
*Bill... it seems to me yur buyin in to this idea that yur little F*#@ village deserves a stricter more exclusive code than the rest of us folks..what about the little old widow who ain't got no income.. why shud she have to pay for the WHIMS of yur board?and the code crap doesn't raise the values of housing.... LOCATION.. and a certain amount of SNOB zoning ..but the anti-vinyl siding ...and the anti-plastic plumbing is just sheer EGO..b but hey, whadda i know?
*I wonder how many get bids from licenced electrians in your little town and because of the code that forces a too high of price to decide, "what I do in my house is my business" and try to do it themselves. Then without proper experiance or evan the help of a good hardware store guy to lead them in the right direction (who they're afaid to ask because what they want to do is illegal) they do a hack job. As for me I'd rather have a good electrian do the job with romex than a hack try to sneak a job past the inspectors. NEC is just fine, let those who want to do better use EMT etc. The little old ladies will thank you. IMHO
*Mike - I don't believe I posted anything that says I'm buying into it. And I don't know what the obscenity laced attitude about a place where I live has contributes anything.
*Bill,Here's a question I ask all the time, sometimes more overtly than this.Is this suggestion trying to fix a symptom or a problem?If the symptom is rodents chewing wires, wouldn't the real problem by the rodents? If you put the wires in metal conduit they'll start chewing that darn PVC DWV pipe!!-Rob
*Good points Mike! You're starting to sound like a true Republican....less Gov. interference and protect personal freedoms! I knew you'd come around. Jeff
*Ryan, I believe it is the mice they are trying to protect.
*Bill:I agree with the above comments that following the NEC and the CABO and BOCA codes will result in wiring that will not cause fires or reduce house values. If the powers to be see rat infestation as a real problem for the wires, the attact the rat infestation. Rodents chewing on wires is a concern in large industrial ares where housewives and house pets are not constantly on guard for the creatures.You may try to see if the NFPA (?) or some insurance association has data to back up the idea that NM-B, etc is a perfectly good wiring material, as they write the NEC.Frank
*Bill.. if i remember right ..(((and i been wrong before))).. you are in fire prevention....now how would you like it if we set a citizens advisory committee to rewrite the fire regulations.. and some ego driven do gooders were appointed and they proceeded to recommend a lot of changes to perfectly good and practical fire regulations based on what they THOUGHT wud be better fire protection...or even better... what they THOUGHT would raise the resale values of their neighbor's houses... not what was good fire regulation ...here's another one ... your electrical inspector , with his recommendations... i'll bet he'd put em in place .. and look the other way on his own projects or where they wern't convenient for him...he sounds like the kind of guy who wants to regulate everyone else's life but his own ...gimme a break.. this is the same as exclusionary zoning...where the haves are tryin to make sure the have-nots don't take away their pie...and cast iron hubless... sure , it's got its place, especially in sound control...this is like the debate about 7/11 stair tread/riser ratio.. makeing things safer at the cost of making them unaffordable..do the right thing bill....resist!strike a blow for freedom.. and doing the right thing..b we have met the enemy, and he is us ! Pogo
*prohibiting use of romex, bx, se, as well as non-metalic conduit. Would like your thoughts on safety issues and, perhaps, on the idea of local amendments to NEC "to keep real estate values" up. (Stand by - plumbing is next - and in working on my house I still have to do dwv in cast iron.) Romex, in itself, is not a problem. Probably 98% of the problems are due to splices (connections). Has this so and so considered banishing wire nuts instead?BX - it might be nice to ban flex as it is a crummy system but when it must be used as a last resort, then what would you do if it were banned - use liquid-tite? Isn't that overkill?PVC - This is the superior method of underground installations. Unlike metal, it doesn't rust or corrode. Why ban it? (Is this a matter of requiring the installation of something that will eventually fail (built in obselescence)?)NEC - The National Electrical Code establishes minimum standards. You would be better off prohibiting legal but sleazy things like push-in, back-wired receptacles and aluminum wiring [small gauges]. It [the NEC] is essentially a law book which is why it is so poorly written and hard to understand. In a democracy, laws should never be used to favor one class over another.Plumbing - Now that plastic drain pipes have been invented, is there any excuse for using cast iron (except where sound control is an issue). Does anyone even make stainless steel drain pipe?---------------------------------------------------------------------
*You mentioned Chicago, if I'm not mistaken this is a huge union issue there, (electrical and plumbing codes.)anything that will make a project use less labor hours, and make it easier for the DIY guys they are opposed to, and will dig up any arguement to keep it more "union labor" intensive.Sure, cast iron is quiet, but when was the last time anyone heard of an outbreak (or is it break out) of rodents chewing through pipes and wires?
*Steve and others make the point - labor control of codes in Chicago region. And this cycle or adpotion review with proposed amendments isn't making things harder, its just maintaining the status quo.I wish it was as black and white some suggest. Were it simply romex/no romex or pvc-dwv/no pvc, it would be easy or easier. And I would come down on the side of don't change the technical provisions of national model codes.But what about a.a.v.'s (studor vents)? What about using se service entrance cable - in an old town of old, closely spaced houses with mature trees? Isn't se a little more prone to damage than rigid conduit and isn't that more of an issue when tall two storey houses are typically 8-12' appart, and only 3' off the lot line?(But don't get me started 7/11 stirs. That's a case of research and statistics that show safer stairs would prevent more loss from injuries than seat belts do. And it was seen that way by quite a few building officials who voted for it for the codes but were overuled by local politics and - mostly - those with a vested interest in stock house plans. Tell me how a stair one or two treads longer properly designed into a house plan suddenly makes housing unaffordable when there's a 400 sq ft master bath suite?)I really appreciate all your input. Like I say, I agree with most of the sentiments here - but want to be sure that I'm not alone.More later...
*Oh, and what about ent? Looks like vacume cleaner hose in day glo colors - thus it's frequently known as smurf by trades people. I've only seen it in south but its permitted by NEC.
*I too have issues with the building code in my town. My solution is to run for mayor with my own group of commisioners. We together have filled a modest campaign kitty (just barely 3 figures) we are going to spend the $2 ea. it will take to get on the ballet and are united in our opposition of the current rules. Since most people that we talk with are in agrement with our position I expect to get elected. A simple majority will change the rules and if I don't try I lose my right to complain.
*Steve - mice are a bigger problem than you imply in older houses. They chew on everything, including galvanized pipe, brick and bx cable. They have to chew to wear down their teeth which continue to grow otherwise.How about a technical, rather than legislative solution - we have NMC (Romex) manufacturers put a nasty-tasting compound in the plastic jacket so the rodents quit chewing right away?Bill - A question on your 'village code' issue. Codes are usually Nationally-based and State-adopted with relatively few modifications. In most areas, aren't municipalities prohibited from making local laws that significantly change national codes? New York is a good example of a city that has its own code, but a village?
*Bill_Conner, thanks for asking for our opinions. Even though we don't live in your village, you can see it makes the blood boil in some, jsut thinking about how the village "leaders" put their heavy hand into something that they know little about. I guess thats why they have an advisory committee.If the NEC thought that conduits would be worthwhile and safer, it would already be code. But it isn't, and for good reason. The modern insulated romex is plenty safe enough, if installed properly. The argument that rodents can chew it is absurd, since I've never heard of anyone experienceing the problem. Should we make the wires Asteroid proof? Or maybe we could make sure the Abomidal Snowman can't rip the wires out!And the use of pvc in buildings is also plenty good enough. How about giving your clients (the townsfolk) a choice? If they want the benefits of the quieter cast iron, with the resulting maintenance (the cast iron tends to clog and requires snaking), then allow them. But don't force it down their gullets! Last winter I pulled my cast iron stuff out, and installed pvc. I don't care about quiet! I want light, easy to repair, easy to open the cleanouts, easy to do myself, and I don't want lead leaching into my septic!Don't be in too big of a rush to force expensive things on your neighbors and claim it adds value. Around here, we scrimp and save on the plumbing pipes and then put in expensive circulating tubs with roman decks and Corian. We use romex, and then run it to 25 recessed lights and have a little money left over for a nice chandelier hanging in our two story foyers.Value? I think we have it. It's called good value. We also use micro-lams and clear span large areas in our first floors. If we were to follow your mindset, we be forced to use steel beams and posts, thus eliminating another modern convenience-the open concept.Bill thanks for asking for input. Do your friends a favor and vote for common sense and freedom. Maybe just force the homeowners to sign a waver acknowledging that cast iron is quiter, and conduit will keep the rodents out. But please, give them a choice to use modern day materials. Don't let the old fuddy duddies talk you into living in the past.Remember, the painters union fought the roller, and then fought the sprayer. The carpenters fought the power saw and many are still bad-mouthing nail guns. It just doesn't make sense!blue
*Bill... thanks fer takin the bait on the 7 / 11 stair issue... see yer missin the point ....the problem with the 7 / 11 stair doesn't occur in the house with the 400 sf. bath it occurs in the starter home, and the low income home , because u can't get the stair run in the basic 24 foot deep house...that's why people who sit on these boards shud have a basic knowledge of what they're reviewing...hah, hah, hahb but hey, whadda i know ?
*In my experience, which "government" makes a model code the local law varies a lot from region to region. In Texas, for instance, different cities adopted different codes so based on where you were, it might be BOCA, or SBC, or UBC. Florida has several, including the Reedy Creek Development District (all of Disney property) has their own, written and maintained by their own officials.In Illinois, each community (or at least those with "home rule") is free to adopt their own and there is no State code.
*I've not seen a plan and section of a house where the 7/11 couldn't be incorporated. The NAHB contrived some really silly examples that were not convincing.So in "the basic 24 foot deep house" why doesn't a 17t, 18r stair fit?And what about affordable cars? Couldn't your arguement be used against seat belts? They certainly add cost to a car.But we really should leave this for another thread.......
*blue - I substantially agree with you (wondering about that lead leaching thing though with our combined storm and sanitary system).I've been asking neighbors and others in town also. I plan to stop by some real estate offices - they always have interesting perspectives on housing.But, even the model codes all state they are a minimum standard and don't necessarily guarantee safety. Should, through a democratic process (not that the "commission" I'm on is necessarily so qualified) a majority of the residents be able to impose a stricter standard on themselves?My first thought was actually to lobby for accepting the codes as they are published and then encourage the building department (and contractors) to educate the public on the benefits of upgrades beyond the minimum requirements. The brick people are pushing brick here; the plaster trade associations are advertising the benefits of plaster; and so on.Personally, cast iron dwv (assuming two story house) and (fire) sprinklers are of value to me, much more than jacuzzi'z and granite. But I don't want to force those values on others.
*Bill...we re not talkin about cars where ahundred thousand of teh same model are produced.. we're talikin abot homes.. remember...focus Bill, focus..anyhow.. 24' leaves 23.25 ft. clear front wall to back wall...3 ft from the front wall to the first riser... 15.6 ft to the top tread...leaves 4.65 ft as a landing... u can do it.. but you can't do it in a cape.. not without a full dormer at the top of the stairs.. and you can't do it without giving up a lot of living space...now the whole house has to get built around the stairs...your stair well occupies 62 of the 864 sf in a 24x36 structure... mine takes up 40 sf ...(7.5 / 10) yours is 7% of the gross area, mine is 4%and none of the statistics show any appreciable gain in safety from the current standard..8.25 / 9all you do is put the starter house further out of the reach of a young family and probably keep them living in an even more unsafe condition than owning their own home....b but hey, whadda i know?
*Mike, I'm going to weigh in on this subject (stair dimesions).I believe it should be up to the individual to decide which rise and run that they want. Like I said in another post, I don't need the government to save me from myself. BUT...recently (in the past year), I have been framing for a builder that builds in a local community that requires 10" run, and no more than a 7.75 rise. Since the plans are drawn with the old standards, we have fought tooth and nail to get headroom. On one plan, we end up with 6'-8 1/8" headroom after drywall! And that was accomplished after many hours of calculating and re-engineering.Now the BUT. I actually love the ten inch run, and will be willing to do whatever in my new house to have it (and I will have to be creative, because the foundation is already poured, and I hadn't planned on it). The 7.75 max rise also results in a 7.45 rise on a house with 9' ceilings and 2x10 joist. It is very comfortable, and I believe safer, especially the ten inch run, while descending.I think the ten inch run is a nice compromise, and would endorse it if I wasn't a Libertarin leaning rebel. It's also nice that we can use 2x12 treads to accomplish the requirements. We've been using a high grade (#2 or better) southern yellow pine tread stock. Very solid and very strong!Bill, maybe you should suggest the ten inch compromise and squash the cast iron and emt.blueps Our state code just went into effect and prohibits the local community from stiffening the stair requirements. All houses that we are currently building are still required to meet the 10" run requirements but all permit pulled after the enforcement date will revert to the 8.25/9 rules.pss i've been studying my barn stairs to see how I can rebuild them. It will involve the cutting of the main beam, but I think it will be worth the effort.
*Maybe I can be as creative with math as you. 24X36 times two stories is 1728 gross sq ft in most jurisdictions. I'm not sure exactly what dimensions you are using for what but believe the 7/11 adds two treads and another inch to each of 14 in the run or approximately 36". Somehow you show this as 22 sq ft, I get 9. Anyway, that's between 0.5% and 1.3% of the gross area. Or how about 14 vs 16 treads is a 14% increase and you're saying is a 55% increase. Or do you put 9' ceilings in this 24 X 63 starter home?By the way, do you guys build a lot of these 24 X 36 homes? I look through plan books and home builder magazines and at adds and they all seem a little bigger. As for " and none of the statistics show any appreciable gain in safety from the current standard..8.25 / 9" I disagree. I've watched video tapes of the research and have looked at the numbers and have engaged the researchers and the opponents (mostly NAHB) and it seems extremely clear that the falls increase as the tread depth decreases. Doesn't seem like a long reach to see that as your foot turns in or out to fit on a tread that is lees deep than your foot is long, that it is less stable, particularily in the direction of travel. Then consider arthritus or carrying a baby or using a walker on these.But gosh it's hard to face up to the fact that perhaps one has been doing something one way, believeing with all their heart its best, and find out its not the best way.Personally, for my family, I'll build 12.5 to 13" treads. An extra 25-50 sq ft of building seems a small price to pay versus a law suit or a wheelchair.....or even a cane and aches on humid mornings for that matter.......resulting from one stumble.
*Geesh, Bill... what plan books are you lookin in.. you're not lookin at starter homes.. and low income..bet you thot the total rise is 8 feet from floor to floor..you see what i mean ... guys like you belong rewriting building codes like i belong rewriting the countdown manual for NASA..you don't know squat about designing or building homes...and neither do the rest of the people you've introduced us to on your review committee..but i'm not surprised.. because the builders who know how to do this stuff don't want to get involved in their own towns ... they let bozos get elected.. and they appoint people who think like them to these committees..go figger..don't bother with the math.. (garbage in '= garbage out)..and yes , i always build with 10 inch treads.. that doesn't mean the code should limit treads to 10 inches..that's up to the circumstances and no, you won't build with 12.5 inch or 13 inch treads,, if you do , you'll regret it.. but then you'll never get to that point , so who are you kidding?b we have met the enemy and he is us..Pogo
*Amen Brother! Mike, I would sure like to meet you some day...you definitly know how to collect your thoughts and get them down in black and white(or green : })Best regards, John
*Mike, I wish you could have responded with some substance. Unfortunately, you had to stoop to personal attacks and ruined another opportunity for meaningful discussion.
*Bill.. nothing personal about it.. i think you know a lot about whatever it is you do..you just don't know much about building or designing homes..and i base this not on animosity .. i base it on the premises you quote in your posts.. it's is so obvious you haven't been thru the process when you start talking about having to have 9 ft. ceilings..when anyone knows that the distance from floor to floor is going to be apx. 9 ft..and if you had ever built a set of stairs with 13 inch treads you will find that they are NOT a comfortable stair...the basic house that you start with in designing homes is called the >a 24x24.. with a cape roof.. go ahead and put your 7/11 stair in and let me know how you do it.. and let me know what is left for the two people and their baby who have to live there...you do fire protection , don't you?want me to tell you about fire safety code????thot so...gimme a beak.. the only problemn i got is you're lookin for justification for your review committee to write exclusionary code... and you ain't gonna get no absolution from me..b your buddy in Breaktime..Mike
*There's a lot of material there to discuss but still waiting to here how a single storey flight of stairs grows 55% - from 40 to 62 sq ft - by changing from 7.5/10 to 7/11 - as you claimed.
*bill. like i said ...it's a stairwell..how big is it?according to you it's 17 treads x 11 inches is 15.6 ftx 4 ft = 62 sfand a fairly standard on will be 10 x 4 = 40 sf..see why you shoudn't be doin this? now what ? what do you do for a living?come on bill.. don't duck it forever...
*Is Mike Smith an alias for Joe fusco or Gabe Martel...You are now required to take a long sit in a Jacuzzi...roll up a big one and relax boy...tell us a joke with your next post....and stop practicing what you are preaching against....and no need to practice making perfect swastikas out of a M and a S...near the stream watching veins pop from your forhead boy...aj
*I too live in the Chicago area and I am for using conduit over romex, bx, etc. I grew up in a small town where everyone could do as they damn well pleased with their house and most did. Some were competent; most were not. You wouldn't believe some of the cobbled up shit you saw in people's basements, let alone the stuff you couldn't see. I like conduit for two reasons. It keeps the amateurs intimidated enough that eventually they call a professional. Any shorts, sparks or open circuits occur inside NON-COMBUSTIBLE spaces with a positive path to ground. Electrical work and gas piping are two jobs that I wouldn't advise the average homeowner to tackle. Sure you can cobble up a plumbing job too, but all you're going to get is wet not dead!You'll still get the people that feel the need to do it their own way regardless of any codes or restrictions. Example: After I bought my current house (owned and modified by an area remodeling contractor) I was in the attic looking around. Saw a lot of bx cable running to an fro through the blown-in insulation. Started tracing it to see were it went. It ended with two bare wires separted by about 2" (yes they were hot)buried in the insulation.Even with so-called professionals, you just never know.
*aj.. thanks... phew... ok see my post in (((jokes)))BTW.. lemme tell yu how to build tennis courts , hey?
*Mike...your reading my thoughts...I do need some help this year as the phone is ringing off the hook and as I look out the window, I think the rain is finally coming to an end...hopefully for the season!near the stream adding soap bubbles to yur bath,ajI'm outa hear...see ya in the PM
*17 treads at 11 and 18 risers at 7" is a total rise of 126" or 10'6" floor to floor.You comapare that to yours of 12 treads (10' at 10" per tread) and 13 risers at 7.5" = 97.5" or 8'1.5" floor to floor.You may believe I don't know anything about house building but all you have demonstrated is that you may not be adept at math. Because you seem like an earnest and hardworking fellow, I won't choose the other conclusion that you are deliberately misconstruing the facts.I design theatres - performing arts type, not cinema - and spend an inordinate amount of time detailing aisle stairs. In addition, as a representative of a professional society I participate in the development of the model building and life saftey codes as well as the Access Board for the ADA. As part of that I have studied stairs from early Geeek buildings through modern day, in the US and around the world.
*gee, guess u told me.. so how do you fit 11 inch treads into a 24 foot house?don't confuse the issue with the floor to floor height .. we both know how to lay out stairs...just give me the size of your stairwell vs. code.. that is what consumes the floor areaor gimme a stair for a typical 8 ft ceiling plus floor joist and flooring... your 7/11 vs. code 8.25/9.. and don't forget teh 6 ft. 9 inch headroom either... oopsyour stairwell is 55 sf.. and unworkable in a 24' cape and a lot of remodels... and code is 36 sf. and doable..9 foot run vs. 13.8 ft.which one serves the public? besides... we don't really want no stinkin low-income housing in our village now , do we?.. might lower the property values...nor do we want the ability to remodel the house without blowing out the back wall just so we can fit your stairs ....
*This 'debate' has turned into a good example of the subject, (sideways, kinda sorta, after it was hijacked), of another thread, 'common sense versus intelligence'.Not a bad thing, just an observation.: )
*eric.. don't you believe in ((unintended consequences)))) ...if you require everything to be in conduit,, either it will get really screwed up by the amateurs ... or the whole thing will go underground and no one will get permits, or hire licensed electricians ...if the rest of the world is going with national or regional codes.. a very restrictive code based on the personal whims of a review board encourages a scoff-law attitude..we should all strive for reasonable codes and uniform enforcement...hey, i see all the schlock you are describing.. and a stricter code will not change that .. a reasonable code,, and a streamlined permitting process will encourage people to do the right thing...the idea of ((hey, i got mine, and i'm going to make it hard for you to get yours ))) is not reasonable nor just.. and in the end is counter- productive.
*Eric, et al - here is a summary of all that the amendments the building department proposed at our first meeting.Service entrance limited to only rigid or intermediate metal or rigid non-metallic - basically prohibiting sec.No splices permitted in service entrance conductors (a b_tch if you want to change a main panel in existing). They suggested they would permit splices on application to the inspector.Electrical Nonmetallic Tubing (ent); Nonmetallic Sheathed Cable (romex and all its flavors); SE and USE; UF - all of these not permitted at all.Rigid nonmetallic prohibited indoors.BX not permitted except in a very few circumstances and only for short runs. (I know they are different but this applies to both AC and MC.)Generally require more protection and a separate ground for intermediate and rigid metal conduit underground than the code requires. Prohibit emt underground in all circumstances.Require separate grounds in flexible metal conduit of any length.All ceiling boxes installed in a room where a fan might be installed shall be of the type listed for fans.Lastly - requiring emergency lighting in public restrooms and restrooms where there might be children.There's the summary. I'm inclined to speak against them all. The only softness in that stance is maybe the se and perhaps the ent. I'd love to hear some more arguments one way or the other. And maybe since some here have such strong feelings about how and who makes these decisions, some more suggestions on how I can best represent those governed by these codes.I think next month will be plumbing - and there are two plumbers on the panel (well - one is a pipefitter actually) - so should be interesting. And I'm dropping the stair discussion in this thread until the commission get to the building code - at least till then. (But if someone wants to send me a cad drawing of a small house where it appears that lesser rises and/or longer treads won't fit at reasonable cost, I'd enjoy playing with that and returning or posting it - including a full admission of error if I can't make it fit for little additional cost.
*fair enuf.. Bill...keep it comming..
*Mike,I'm not sure that a strict code drives the underground market. All the DIY ers I know can bend conduit and pull wire with the best of them. The ones that can't hire someone who can. What I am sure of is that if someone does do substandard work on their house and then tries to sell it to someone else, there is recourse in getting the work repaired or replaced before someone else's kids die in the fire. Home inspections are commonplace and should flag all code violations that are readily apparent.As far as remodeling goes, it's much easier to pull an extra circuit in through conduit than fishing romex through an insulated wall. In new construction I doubt that conduit costs substantially more on a 2500 sf tract house than romex would. Electrical subs are all set up to do it and they all bid competatively.Mike, I know you have your opinions on this, and I'm not necesarily trying to sell you on mine, but I think that for the nominal cost this requires, the safety factor more than compensates.FWIWEric
*eric... there is nothing NOMINAL about the difference between a house wired with NEC approved devices and romex (NM)... and the same house with the same devices wired with EMT/CONDUIT and the associated boxes...since we don't use the latter in residential construction.. i will have to defer to my electrician when i see him..don't forget.. every dollar of hard costs has to be marked up by the general to run the business..so instead of a NOMINAL additional expense.. that little sentence in your propsed code represents a major upcharge....and we have very competitive electricians too..
*Sounds like a challenge for Joe Fusco.: )
*I do believe that if this village amends the code that they should also amend the purpose statement in the beginning and be clear that these are not the absoulute bottom minimum - reasonable or practical I think are words used in the 99 nec - better than minimum.If you look at codes regarding fire resistive construction, for instance, they require a certain minimum fire rating for a minimum level of protection of the occupants for the time it will take them to get out. Take an (exit access) corridor in an strip mall style office building and this is probably a half hour rating. Drywall on steel studs may meet this requirement - and the tests show this - maybe lasted 35 minutes. 8" block also meets this requirement - but maybe it was still standing at 55 minutes. Are they both good enough? Is one better? If its a grade school with your 5 yr old in it does it make a difference?I have to laugh - these remind me of the joke about a mathematician, an engineer, and an accountant. Ask each how much 2 plus 2 is and the mathematician answers it "might be 4"; the engineer answers "approximately 4"; and the accountant replies " how much do you want it to be?"One more. When I first became involved in the code development process, one sage explained to me that as teh code groups get together and coordinate their codes, if one says 2, another says 4, and all the scientists and engineers in the world say ten, the new code will say 3. I'm happy to report it is not that bad, but its not perfect either.Jeese - somewhere around 50 posts and I haven't finished electrical - still got plumbing, mechanical, building, fire, and property maintenance codes to go. (Man, you guys are gonna love that last one - annual walking inspections here. Almost everyone gets a letter of soem sort noting peeling screen doors or something. Libertarians aren't us!)
*Eric....thank fully we do not have unions, rats that eat romex or codes that would cost the average homeowner another two to four thousand dollars to have their home wired at the minimum...The Adirondacks are much freeer but not free enough...near the stream,aj
*Bill, do they have any residential contractors, or tradesmen on the advisory board?I didn't think so. bluePs Funny who'd of thought you would use residential people to advise a council for residential construction?!!!!Pss Bill, I've never done too much commercial. That means I'd be a prime candidate for the commercial advisory committee, eh?!
*Pathetic Bill. how in the hell did we (society) manage to get to the 21st century without your walking inspections?!!never free enough,blue
*Come on Blue - they're not mine! Don't hang them on me.On second thought, I delete the rest of this post and save it for another thread - probably better suited to the woodshed.
*damn, bill, fer a minit there i thot u were gonna start whinin... why don't ya just tell him ... ((this is our willage and we like it this way))....he don't have to live there do he?course, neither do the widdah lady , nor the young tradesman and his young family,.... nor any them other undesirables whose income level can't comply with the code....sorry, bill, i got the same problem heah, we got too many people with nothin but money gettin appointed to all the boards.. and they just love solvin someone else's problems.. and givn em guidance in how to live their lives, and side their houses,, and close the bars with live music.....
*Bill I'd either just simply move, or fight like hell for big brother to get off my back!never free enough, especially from burro-crats,blue
*Well, I can understand how you might think that but, in fact, there are tradesman. Working from memory, there is a sprinkler contractor, a plumbing contactor, a mechanical contarctor, an engineer who works for the electric company, and me. An architect elected to the village board also attends.This is not an ongoing thing - just started - new director in building code department and mostly new staff - and generally new management in village hall. I got asked to apply by a neighbor who works in village hall because he knew of my involementg with the building codes on a national level.So, I don't know how the codes got to where they are, and I can't predict how it will turn out. But, my impression is most of you would find the other members to be common sense guys. Yes, they are all the owner of their own contracting company but generally not huge companies. I believe they all got there by working up through the trades.BUT, I don't think that mothers hold all the wisdom on pregnancy, nor astronauts on space flight, and I don't think builders hold all the knowledge on construction. (Maybe some the most practical and pragmatic, but not all. If you did have all the knowledge, I wouldn't find so many references posted here to manufacture's preachings that originated with engineers and marketing types who were never builders.)
*Hmmm, no residential builders or framers?!!!I'll bet that sprikler contractor will be real helpful deciding the stair proportions.Just like I'd be real helpful with his sprinklers.blue
*I wish I had money. Even half of what most in this village have would be very nice.But Mike, have you seen this ent - electrical nonmetallic tubing? Smurf as electricians call it. It sure seems flimsy and a lot less durable than romex. I'm not sure I'd like it in the walls of my house. I've bought meat wrapped in plastic that seems thicker and more durable than this stuff.
*Bill, I have kept me mouth shut so far, but this is just a bit too much.Walking inspections to tell me that I haven't cut my grass correctly, or that the paint on my screen door is starting to peel ???!!?If you or any of your crew came onto my private property to try to tell me how to wash my damn windows, I would shoot the lot of you just on principle. The first time that I got a letter from your council telling me that my driveway is not the correct color black, I would wait until you were all in meeting, and then park a big u-haul out front with some fertilizer and diesel fuel in the back.Of course, I wouldn't do anything of the sort, but there are those out there who would. I'm telling you this up front. I can guaran-damn-tee you that there is at least one person in your pretty little town who feels the same. Difference being, I don't have to live with youse. THEY do. They may also be one of those who is living without a conscience. They will probably keep their mouth shut, and youse will all be guests at a surprize barbeque while in one of your meetings one day.Point I'm making is this... As Mike has tried to inmpress on you several times already... Youse may be playing house and having fun bloating your own senses of power, but there are people out there for which these changes you are talking about are going to be too much. When your code antics cause a man to lose his home, the roof over his family's head, you have put him in a position of having nothing left to lose. It is entirely possible he will seek out those who are to blame, and make them pay in any way he can.Or, you may well get away with your shenanigans, and many people will lose what they have worked all their lives toward. Whether someone seeks retribution or not, it is you and those others in this little game with you who will have to carry forever the burden of guilt and blame for all those lost dreams, possibly even lost lifes. Yes, lost lifes, you haven't let yourself think about what happens when what you consider to be a minor change causes someone to lose everything. Suicide sometimes happens, Bill.....Consider one more thing.... When you are successfull, all those who cannot afford the changes called for by your code crap will have left your fair little bhurg.... Who then, are you going to get to pick up your garbage, to wash your streets, to pump your gas, to watch your kids while you are at work ?? Do you think any of your rich neighbors are going to be standing in line to do those jobs ? How much higher are the prices going to have to be at the corner grocery because they have to pay a lot more than minimum wage to the brats of all your rich neighbors ? How much longer will it be until you can't afford to live there ?
*Bill, I've got a couple of questions about the ent:When you tested it, to what radius could it flex before it broke? When you tested it, at what tempature did it fail? When you tested it, how many test pieces out of ten thousand failed in real world use?Maybe the stuff's no good but you are not qualified to decide!!!! If the existing code (whick I have always assumed was at least somewhat based on testing and real world statistics) allows it, don't screw things up because you have a guess that maybe it might not seem good enough to you.You may build your house anyway you want but stop trying to impose your opinions on everybody else. If a person buys a piece of property, they ought to be able to do with it what they want as long as it's not infringing on their neighbors. The wrong species of grass or the wrong shingle color is not infringement!!!Screw you and every other pompus, I know better, I'll protect the little people, martha stewart, keep out the blacks, cookiecutter quaint, big brother burecrat on your committee!
*Blue and Luka,I agree that for guys like you that have the luxury of not being able to see your neighbors, that walk around inspections are ridiculous. However, when you live in town and care what your property value is, it's a different issue. I don't want some hub-shack livin' trash to move into my neighborhood, park a '59 Airstream on blocks 10 feet from my bedroom window and then proceed to store 3 weeks worth of trash on the back patio 'cause they can't get their lazy, government check a$$ out of bed early enough to meet the trash truck. Never mind the beat-up wash machine they drug out of the neighbor's trash and the other sh!t they hauled in with 'em that won't fit into the three bedroom house with their six kids, two in-laws and four cousins.Some people just need a little shove now and then to do the right thing. When they won't, you've got to have some recourse.
*eric...i'm surprised at you... i thot you were more aware of what goes on in this world...your reply to luka and blue shows an amazing tendency to lump a lot of things together...and to use a building code to enforce your vision on others is counterproductive...that's why tey have zoning laws.. man i just love the vision of the maintenace police commin around..do you have service organizations that follow up on the notices so mrs. murphy get's some help repairin her screen door... or helpin get rid of the car her soldier son left just before he deployed to bosnia...eric... go back and read that thing.. it's full of the invective of them vs. us....it should be WE.....
*Zoning laws ? Ha Ha Ha. Haven't you heard the news? Zoning laws are now discriminatory. Yeh. A certain ethnic group in Elgin has filed suit because they make up a "disproportionate share" of all people being cited for overcrowding. Never mind that they're the predominant ethnic group in the city. Never mind that they're the ones who are cramming 15 people into a 3 bedroom bungalow. Never mind that what they're doing is against the law.I got a speeding ticket the other day. I think I'll sue. Citing people for speeding discriminates against people that drive over the legal limit. Yeh, that's the ticket.Shall we agree to disagree on this one?Eric
*you betcha....buddy
*Luka - I think I've been quite clear that I'm new and because of my alledged expertise in the codes was asked to sit on this advisory committee which has met twice ever and I missed the first meeting. Please stop trying to smearme with supporting them. Your Clinton-like tactics and rhetoric are borish.Further, these codes have been around for quite a few years. I think it was in the late 60's when the westside of Chicago was not doing so well. This village borders the west side of Chicago. As I understand itfrom reading local papers and listening to other locals, in an effort to preserve the town - whether that is humanity values or property values or otherwise - the village took a very agressive and proactive approach. A lot of the "action" was rhetoric. Another was these citizens commissions. Property maintenance, focused on rental property but also single family was another element. Another is that you can't post a for-sale sign if your selling your house - part of an attempt to stop or at least slow "block-busting". And tehre were a lot of cul-de-sacs created so it wasn't so easy to cruise in and out of Chicago. And there were, I'm sure, many other pieces.You can, of course, post anything you want. In case you cared, my intent in starting this topic was to gather opinions as to the technical merits and practical outcomes of specific building code amendments. I appreciate yours and others constructive comments.It seems that you might not want to relocate here. For many, it is convenient: convenient access to one of teh top 2 or 3 airports in the world, schools that rank very high in the nation by many standards, fantastic old houses including a handful of national landmarks, easy access to Chicago (and two sad but lovable major league baseball teams), and a whole host of other cultural resources that some people would appreciate. Perhaps you don't believe these are all linked - the good and bad but I do. Perhaps you don't believe that it is all perfected and some things need changing or refining - we agree.Lest you have any doubt about where I stand, when I retire in approx 7 years, my house here will be sold and I'll be somewhere back east.
*bill by that time ... the new arrivals in my town will probably make yours look like one of Mother Tereas's homes....here's their favorite one:...."we've got to preserve the rural character"which to them means that now that their house has been built.. they want to make damn sure the couple who owned the empty lot next door for 40 years doesn't get to build their retirement home..or they want to make sure the guy with 40 acres can't cut down any trees..(never mind that 30 years ago there weren't any trees .. they were all hay fields and pasture)...or, this is the one i like.. the guy with the jaccuzzi that draws 17 gallons a minute on fill, wants to make sure no more water hook-ups are granted....the common thread is hypocrisy... scratch a do gooder and you find a code violator.....
*Ryan - All I said was it is cause for some to raise eyebrows. I am surprised it was accepted by the NEC panels but I know the power of the plastics industry. Most electrical contractors I ask about it (and I make time to talk to the supers and trades people on site visits as much as possible because they provide useful insight to me as a designer) don't like it - and that's even acknowledging that it is a joy to pull through with so little friction.I also am on a panel for the Life Saftey Code and know that a code panel can make mistakes. (Any of you folks taken a hit on the code accepted fire retardent treated plywood roof decks? And didn't someone else here suggest that when a building code changed to 7/11 or 7.5/10 stairs in residential that the code panel made a mistake and that teh local state legislature did the right thing in overturning the national code?) Being on the "inside" does not make me feel safer. It may seem like these codes are all based on science and testing but I think that the consensus process - which is a great thing - also has pitfalls. In the end, its just different people making the decisions.
*Well, that's the first time I have ever been compared to a president. Coming from you, that's a complement. Thank you.As for anything else, I won't waste any more breath on you. You have obviously already decided that you are going to be a butthead no matter what anyone says. You are just trying to find somone to agree with you so you don't have to pay attention to your conscience. I wish the citizens of your little village all the luck in the world. They are going to need it. When they start shouting and carrying signs in front of the courthouse, I'd advise you to get yourself a kevlar vest.
*Conner: "Your [Luka's] Clinton-like tactics and rhetoric are borish. "I was thinking he was more like the radical right: come out swinging with vicious attacks without regard for what the attackee said or did.Luka: "As for anything else, I won't waste any more breath on you." Good. I've reread the thread and don't see any basis whatsoever for the attacks you've made against Conner.Bob Walker
*Hmmmm,Ok, so I went back and read them all as well. I do think that I could have toned my responses down a bit, and used better tactics. But my message stays the same. If I made a change in building codes that caused you to lose your house, you would be biting bullets and want to kill, maim or at least injure me. No matter whether your house cost you a couple million or a couple thousand. If they make their code changes without considering what effect it is going to have on those who can least afford it, sooner or later someone may wig out and decide to get revenge.