Just shelled out almost $400.00 after shipping and taxes for a copy of the building code.
Man why so much?!?
For over $500.00 you can get an Online version. Or $95.00 gets you 10 days access during the year. ( any 10 days)
Seems to me it would be much better to have it more readily availble to people. What a rip off.
Replies
Well, the chief building inspector in my county when my home was built (maybe the same individual today) doesn't enforce them, but maybe its because he cannot afford them as well.
In my county the information age has struck to some degree. I can access property information online via a GIS database and at no charge. This is nice for access public record information. Of course, the last thing the county wants is individuals pointing out the mistakes their inspectors are missing.
Here just a basic residential building code book is around $65. If I wanted to add the commercial code, plumbing, electrical and HVAC it would probably come to around $400. What all did you get for the $400?
I bought the Binder version:
BRITISH COLUMBIA BUILDING CODE 2006
View Image
The British Columbia Building Code 2006 (BCBC) sets out technical provisions for the design and construction of new buildings. It also applies to the alteration, change of use and demolition of existing buildings. Code users should consult the authority having jurisdiction regarding application of BCBC provisions to existing buildings.
The BC Building Code is a regulation of the Local Government Act and is based on the model National Building Code of Canada 2005 and the model National Plumbing Code of Canada. Building code users are involved in the development of the BCBC and they help determine the content. The 2006 BCBC succeeds the 1998 British Columbia Building Code.
The BC Building Code is published in an objective-based format for the first time in the 2006 edition. The objective-based format organizes the BCBC into three Divisions:
Division A, which defines the scope of the Code and contains the objectives, the functional statements and the conditions necessary to achieve compliance;
Division B, which contains acceptable solutions (formerly referred to as “technical requirements”) deemed to satisfy the objectives and functional statements listed in Division A. Most of these are carried forward from the 1998 BCBC; and
Division C, which contains administrative provisions.
The electronic versions of the BC Building Code are also linked to two new types of explanatory material (Intent and Application Statements):
intent statements (detailed statements on the specific intent of the provision); and
application statements (detailed statements on what the provision applies to).
PRODUCTS AND PRICING
These resources can be purchased in a variety of formats including a fully searchable online version using the same award-winning search engine as used in QP LegalEze.
Printed Products
British Columbia Building Code 2006(including Plumbing Services, Part 7)
Format
Price
Binder (13" x 11.5")
$320
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Soft Cover Book (8.5" x 11")
$250
View Image
British Columbia Building Code 2006(NOT including Plumbing Services, Part 7)
Format
Price
Binder (13" x 11.5")
View Image View Image
It takes a bit of effort, but you can find the Ontario Building Code on CanLII and possibly even on E-Laws: it's a regulation of the Province of Ontario and therefore has to be publicly available without charge or it wouldn't be enforceable.
Yes, you can buy it for big dollars too, or borrow it at the library reference section.
But if you're doing this stuff for a living, you should pay the shot and get the illustrated version with examples- that's not available online for free.
now there's codes for building videos and music CD's/DVD's????
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
There is a body of experts that work hard top compile that collection of words
There is a lot of research and history backing it all up.
There are a limited number of copies printed - it ain't a Grishom novel ya know.
everybody involved has to get paid - not like as though King James is subsidizing the work
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I've always thought if should be free.
one copy per what ever ... business, household, person?
but free.
Gov mandated info we're all supposed to follow.
info like that should be provided free of charge.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
just like everything else these days, budget crunches result in fees for things that used to be free, at the very least there should be ref copies in the library
I like the library bit. Here, I've heard a BI tell a contractor that if can't buy a code book, then he, the BI, isn't going to intrepret the code for the contractor, who wouldn't know what he's talking about in the first place, since he doesn't have the book.
At the very least, there should be a copy of the enforced guidelines for reference at the local Building Department, which is not the case in the half dozen or so towns I work in."I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Exactly! In California there was a tax revolt so now all the fees are very high. They will get it somewhere.
So if you don't do anything you don't pay fees.
I'm not sure where the line is but just lowering taxes isn't the answer.
Agreed. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
When did you turn into a socialist?You, of all people here ought to understand that nothing in life is free - somebody pays. They only Q is who and how?Those who need it and use it should be the ones to pay for it rather than balancing the cost on the heads of those who will never open the book.
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Piffin,
Have to agree that this info should be free, or at least available for a minimum charge to the public. Last place I lived a copy was available at the library and in the inspection department, but if you need lots of info that's a lot of time away from the job and copying charges!
Are we not paying city and state taxes for people to put this stuff together??
SK,
"Are we not paying city and state taxes for people to put this stuff together??"
No actually you are not. Depending on how your local government is setup, taxes may not pay for the building department operations at all. Many are funded 100% by building permitting. And the actual code is developed and written (and owned) by organizations such as the ICC which are really not government operated.
It does vary from AHJ to AHJ. (Agencyauthority Having Jurisdiction)
Mike
Whats interesting about this whole thread is we are all debatingdiscussing usage and costs of the building code. Heck in our area when I was working for the local bldg dept, I was AMAZED at how many licensed contractors didn't even own a copy or know where to find one. Didn't even know the library had them!
Thanks, wasn't aware of that.
"Are we not paying city and state taxes for people to put this stuff together??"No - putting it all together is vastly more expensive than any one municipality could do, except for maybe ones as large as NYC or LA.If you are your municipality wants to add another level of service - free publishing - then expect to pay for it one way or another. Higher fees for permits, higher taxes on everybody, or paying for the cost of the copies or the book. It is up to your commmunity to decide HOW to pay for it, but it has to be paid for simply because that is a fact of life - nothing is free.
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"You, of all people here ought to understand that nothing in life is free - somebody pays. They only Q is who and how?"
No S#!t.
someone is paying for it. The building permits cost money.
I'm guessing they already worked out how to pay the building inspector as opposed to him working "for free" ... so figuring out mass printing of a Gov document shouldn't be that far outta reach.
Prisons have print shops across the country.
There ... Done!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"When did you turn into a socialist?
You, of all people here ought to understand that nothing in life is free - somebody pays. They only Q is who and how?
Those who need it and use it should be the ones to pay for it rather than balancing the cost on the heads of those who will never open the book."
Thats the very same as my school view . Remember? Its your kid going to school not mine . You pay for it . I dont have any business paying for your kid to go to school.
Tim
It might be a good idea to note there is a direct correlation between the rates of literacy, education and economic success in all societies. One of the reasons I'm willing to pay for your kid to go to school is so I'm not surrounded by unemployable dough-heads.
Where does this end? Why have playgrounds in parks? Surely they can play at McDonalds?
". One of the reasons I'm willing to pay for your kid to go to school is so I'm not surrounded by unemployable dough-heads."
Do you have any proof that would happen? You dont need an education in the trades although it helps a bunch. The truth is drop outs make exellent workers. They dont have a choice .
"The truth is drop outs make exellent workers. They dont have a choice ."
Some do make good workers. many do nothing - there is always a choice.
The amount of healthy kids I see on the streets asking for change drives me nuts.
My Dad was visiting me from Toronto one time. As we were in an area where a lot of street people were I made a comment about them being the Poor. He just laughed and said they are not poor - you want to see poor go to the streets of Bombay and you will see poor. Talk about little to no choice.
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We pay for public education because a literate, informed, and discerning electorate is necessary for the democracy to survive.
All the rest of preparing students for the work force is something that got added on to the whole idea quite recently.
And, the public school system is obviously broken, just take a look at who the electorate elects.
"
All the rest of preparing students for the work force is something that got added on to the whole idea quite recently.
And, the public school system is obviously broken, just take a look at who the electorate elects. "
I agree.
Teachers have their "unions" to protect each other . Some call it asociations but I know they have their own lawyers and mediators. They lobby raises . They ask for pay bases and increments and set conditions . Sounds like union to me .
If you have a problem with the school they will all throw in together and get defensive. Thats automatic .
A school board member told me they think its their school to run and basically its true . Legally its not true . The parents can run some decisions if they are together but rarely is there any organization.
A friend of mine had a house built . When he got done he told me how strange the process had been. He had things he wanted done that was different than what the workers were used to providing . In every case he had to settle with the way they were used to doing it . So in other words as he said it , I got what they wanted to do. Thats pretty much sums up schools.
They havent done a good job at all preparing students for the work place but have done a decent job at placing kids for colleges. Thats what they strive to do because they are after all college graduates. We get what they want . The kids cant read a tape measure . Havent run into one yet that can. We dont have any vocational training . A couple years ago we got an agri building thats pretty small. Theres a lot of interrest in it but they cant take very many kids . Still no welding or mechanics.
College isnt meant for every kid . Sports hold some childrens interrest enough to make good grades but it doesnt help to make a living . We have some where around 10 million in our sports complex and 250 grand in the agri building . That is an old argument that will never be settled. Mens basketball and football are the only two that make money. Track and baseball eat up the profits. Time its done its a good sized loss passed on to tax payers.
The bottom line is the kids that dont make college arent prepared .
Tim
I had to add one .
Interview 100 college freshmen . Ask them what they are going to be for sure . Are they prepared?
Tim
Interview 100 college freshman, and ask them to show you where they are on a geologic globe, with out the political boundaries on it. 10 of them will indicate somewhere besides North America.
I used to run survey crews. They hired me two new "technicians". The smart one didn't know where east was, thirty minutes after sunrise, and couldn't multiply 6 X 1.2, even though he did know that 6 X 12=72.
The less smart one couldn't figure out to hold zero on a surveyors metal tape when we were chaining between two points.
No, the kids are not prepared for much of anything.
>> The less smart one couldn't figure out to hold zero on a surveyors metal tape when we were chaining between two points. <<
Me (a smart a$$) on the dumb end... I yell out "Hey!!! I burning 1.3147' on my end... " :-0
I just want them to hold the rod right so up."what rod" that fricken stick you holding
Make friends with some local architects. They usually have a library with all of the codes, local zoning codes, national building codes, local amendments, local plumbing codes, etc. You could stop by their office, take a look, scan stuff, copy what you need. If you catch them in a good mood when they are not rushed, they probably will answer your question for you, especially if they don't have to look it up.
You can return the favor by giving them your two cents on some detail, figuring out how to frame something easier, chiming in on the best way to phase a project....
"I've always thought if should be free."There are time that I've thought that (especially right after spending $300 on the full 2006 I code set), but I agree with Piffin that it's not really "free".Someone's going to pay for it, I would rather every contractor who uses it pays for it and not everybody in the country. I don't know how much money my lawyer has invested in law books that are necessary to perform his craft, but I bet it's a whole lot more than a few hundred dollars in code books. I'm certainly glad that the government is not making me pay for those books.I'm constantly amazed at how many tradesmen who work daily in cities or counties who enforce the code do not have code books. The IRC paper version is around $65-80. Not free by any means, but over three years you're looking at a cost of less than $30/year.It really frustrates me when, for instance, our electrician wants to argue box fill requirements with the inspector. Of course, he can't find his code book, and when I show him mine he can't find the section that deals with box fill. When I show him the section, he can't understand what it really means.His solution is to call his uncle who supposedly "knows all about the codes". Like that's going to fly with the inspector.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I don't know how much money my lawyer has invested in law books that are necessary to perform his craft,
Not many 21st century lawyers invest much in books anymore. It's cheaper and more accessible to get cases and statutes on line. If you want to spend the time looking, legal materials are available for free. I subscribe to Lexis and get laws and cases for every state and the feds for a flat fee. I get a kick out of the TV interviews of lawyers in their offices with the usual background of law books. I don't know where they find them.
The applicable Code should be free, since it is generally incorporated in a statute or regulation. To the extent private firms want to sell code books with pictures or commentary, more power to them, but a citizen should have online access to all laws. I suspect that is the case in most jurisdictions.
How much does Lexis cost per annum?I agree that the codes should be available, I'm just saying that a printed copy for free to all who desire one is a little much. Online would be nice, but a copy for reference at every building department or library would suffice as well.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
How much does Lexis cost per annum?
It depends on the number of lawyers and the scope of the subscription. There are three of us and we pay a total of $530 per month for a very comprehensive subscription. I can't image what it would cost for us to buy the books, but it would be many, many times what we pay, not to mention how much more expensive office space we'd need for the books. I can access materials from my desk (or home) that would cost me well into six figures to own and keep updated. It's kind of like the difference betwen a Netflix account and buying a copy of every movie ever made.
There are other benefits lawyers and others get from computerized research. When an opinion refers to another opinion, there is a hyperlink to it. We can bill clients because Lexis allows us to reference a client for each research session. Also, we can cut a section of an opinion from a case and paste it into a brief. When I started practicing in the early 80's, we literally cut and pasted and someone had to type it all.
Even law school libraries are taking another look at how to maintain their collections because it makes no sense to own stuff in book form.
I don't know where they find them
Property (theatrical) house; estate sale by way of eBay--know a local fellow I conncected to a small-shop book binder, not one person has ever comment's that the bindings all read "[barrister's name]'s Civil & Criminal Code/Volume 1" . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
JeffBuck,
Wow, we are in agreement.. a set of the rules should be accessable to anybody at any time for free..
There is a big difference between accessible and having your own copy printed for free.The former is like a free ride on the school bus
But the Latter is like demanding that every citizen be provided their own personal car.
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Piffin,
Accessable! I thought I choose my words carefully.. if it's on line or at the library it's accessable
Absolutely, but probably never happen. There ought to be downloadable versions available that are also free!!
ditto
Its a lot of books to get the whole thing .
I think it should be free online . I think a free copy should be sent to every library for in house reference only.
If we can afford the war , we can afford that. It makes a lot more sense.
Tim
print more copies, sell it at a lower price, sell 50 times the ammount, actually make some profit and pay all the guys who put it together.
most of whats' in there is revised from previous codes anyway. View Image View Image
Sounds good on the surface, but they aren't going to print up a whole lot more than demand requires or they would have to send excess to the shredder at a loss.I like the online approach, but somebody still has to pay somehow.One theory would be that since the codes benefit society as a whole, saving lives and protecting property values, then it should be spread evenly across all taxpayers, but who should bear that burden? It can't be done practically by a local govt and each does their own version by adapting the model to their climate.
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part I don't get is the Online version costs more than the print version. I guess now the gotta pay the web masters and I guess they charge more than the printers charge to print, to maintain the site. View Image View Image
I'm thinking the presumption is that an ofice of ten could get as much use out of an online as an office of one with one book
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In my office we have 10 sets of code books, and we just ordered the online version. We paid the full cost, and we are a government agency.
I'm just saying that a lot of folks don't do it that way and pay their own freight. So the company putting it online has to assume some illegal dulpication and anticipate what to overcharge to make up the loss.
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The electronic version is about $400. , it will be installed on our server. The license agreement will permit us to use it that way. The electronic version is good, but we use the books more.
Check this out...network of 10 users. They want over Three Grand!
ONLINE ACCESS
10 Day Pass (10 individual days in a year)
Product
Price
Stand Alone Version — 1 User
$95
View Image
Annual Licence
Product
Price
Stand Alone Version — 1 User
$200
View Image
Network Pack — Up to 5 Concurrent Users
$520
View Image
Network Pack — Up to 10 Concurrent Users
$730
View Image
Licence Valid for the Duration of the Code
Product
Price
Stand Alone Version — 1 User
$575
View Image
Network Pack — Up to 5 Concurrent Users
$2,120
View Image
Network Pack — Up to 10 Concurrent Users
$3,180
View Image
OFFLINE CD-ROM
Licence Valid for the Duration of the Code
Product
Price
Stand Alone Version — 1 User
$575
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I can understand that the printed versions have a material cost on top of the information inside but why does the cd cost more than the printed version when it costs less to reproduce
who knows View Image View Image
but why does the cd cost more than the printed version when it costs less to reproduce
First, the publisher is probably factoring in a convenience fee. For example, most documents stored electronically are searchable, and it's easy to print out a page or two for reference. Since the publisher perceives that there is additional value, they charge more.
Of course, it may also be that, since a document stored electronically is easily reproduced, the publisher wants to compensate for the 'risk' of losing additional revenue.
Other than that, to answer your question, it makes no damned sense...
Bob
Ahh this is a sore spot for me too. That a government agency will write 'law', then presume to enforce it, all the while not allowing the public to READ the 'law' unless they pay for it...AGAIN.. Now I know that's not a good description of "socialism", but what the hell is it then?You say: "since the codes benefit society as a whole, saving lives and protecting property values, then it should be spread evenly across all taxpayers, but who should bear that burden?"Geez, piffin, who do you think PAID for the code to be written and adopted and enforced IN THE FIRST PLACE?Who do you think is financing the building departments across America, man? If not the very same people who are now held legally and financially responsible to be accountable to such codes...US! Taxpayers! Property owners!Can't we at least have a friggin copy of the code we paid for through our FORCED taxes so that we can know what it is we are being fined for by the people WHOSE SALARIES WE PAY to keep us in line??
From all you wrote here, methinks you didn't do very well in your reading and comprehension class.Let me explain - please pay attention -
"You say: "since the codes benefit society as a whole, saving lives and protecting property values, then it should be spread evenly across all taxpayers, but who should bear that burden?""No, I posed that as a possible rhetorical arguement that COULD be made. I did not make it."Geez, piffin, who do you think PAID for the code to be written and adopted and enforced IN THE FIRST PLACE?"It was the private organization behind the codes writing and research that wrote the model codes. It was NOT anyones taxes. The way that organization finances its research and writing is through selling the books.
Then the local AHJs adopt based on that code with local revisions or additions."Can't we at least have a friggin copy of the code we paid for through our FORCED taxes so that we can know what it is we are being fined for by the people WHOSE SALARIES WE PAY to keep us in line??"Sure - and you obviously want a copy of the traffic codes since you drive a lot, and most people are married, so they need a free copy of all the pertinent civil codes pertaining to family law, child's rights, etc. Oh, and we all eat, so we should each be provided with a free copy of the FDA regs. I suppose that since we all breathe, we should each be provided with all the EPA regs on clean air.
Then let's demand that the govt build a library onto the house for us to store all those volumns they forced us to take home with us.Sounds pretty rediculous doesn't it? No - let's just let those who actually have the need for a copy pay directly for it and save everyone else a lot of money."Can't we at least have a friggin copy of the code we paid for through our FORCED taxes"Does every one need a copy or just to have it available? If you want everyone to have their own copy, then you just increased the cost of govt and they have to increase the taxes.
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Well, Piff, here in FL, the Building Code was written by govt. paid employees, or else was purely financed by the state through its taxes. However, it IS available online. I don't need a hardcopy, per se, but, If I'd like to look at a hard copy, I could go to the library (just not check it out). In fact, almost all of the laws and regs you mentioned are public record and available for whomever would like to waste half a day in the courthouse w/ a digital camera.None of that was my point. I certainly did not ask the state of Fl to write a building code, but if ANY state will do this, they ought to FREELY provide access to such a code to anyone who needs or wants it. In most places I've been in this country, that is not the case (and apparently not the case in BC either).Here in my neck o'th'woods, the municipal building codes are, well, simply not printed. In fact, my building inspector freely told me they "don't necessarily follow the code...it's just a guideline". That is, he doesn't necessarily respect the Fl Building Code---right here in FL. In fact, the County seat here has all sorts of 'municipal guidelines' that affect property owners and builders...all 'un-published'. These are their 'office guidelines', you see. But WE must respect those.
I see - forgot you are in Florida where they do include the free online access in the taxes - so you don't have anything to complain about. You already have what you want.
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I have a copy of florida building code, it was like $30
>> here in FL, the Building Code was written by govt. paid employees, <<
Ahhhh... The information you posted earlier showed that the FLA code was written by the ICC (a .org). and then modified by the state of FLA, obviously as you say, by state funding...
>> or else was purely financed by the state through its taxes. << OK good - no doubt FLA pays the ICC a pretty penny so you got that right.... sorta.... So they give the hardcopy books away too and there is no revenue generated from that? Socialism - as you wish... What? - they sell them - then I guess they are about $10 which covers the cost of a ream of paper and some ink...
And here you don't even own a code book. I guess when you are on site you can always rely on what uncle Jessie's cousin's uncle told your brother. :-)
>>OK good - no doubt FLA pays the ICC a pretty penny so you got that right.... sorta.... So they give the hardcopy books away too and there is no revenue generated from that? Socialism - as you wish... What? - they sell them - then I guess they are about $10 which covers the cost of a ream of paper and some ink...>>And here you don't even own a code book. Socialism as I wish? We are already a socialistic state. Look up the terms. Or did you foolishly think the US was a 'democracy'? (Never was).I do own a code book. A few of them. I recently bought the 2005 NEC, matter of fact. Problem is, like I said before, my county building department does not necessarily follow the FL State Code...they have some nebulous 'office guidelines',... and they don't publish these.And this sort of mentality that our paid public servants have no obligation of informing the public exactly to what standards they must follow, yet WE must be held accountable for knowing them anyway, is precisely my gripe. If you can't understand why that's a problem, perhaps it's because you're one of those gub'mint parasites. Are you?
"From all you wrote here, methinks you didn't do very well in your reading and comprehension class... It was the private organization behind the codes writing and research that wrote the model codes. It was NOT anyones taxes. The way that organization finances its research and writing is through selling the books."
Closer reading would reveal that the OP is from Canada where the codes were developed by governments from the very beginning. Some of the first North American building statutes were enacted in New France (Lower Canada) mandating the composition and thickness of party walls in response to catastrophic fires in Montreal.
The situation really is quite different here. For a small country, we support several large government building research departments: the CMHC and NRC. They produce some very good publications and influence public policy, including the building code. They do it with our tax money and the results should surely be publicly available.
That info is publicly available.I was responding to Pinko from FL in that post, not to the OP specifically, but I did not know that Canada did their own codes research and developement. I thought they also supported the IRC model.
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Just splitting hairs for fun. I really agree with JonBlakemore. No one I deal with has a code, and much of their belief as to what is in it comes from rumours, and one off run-ins with the building inspector.
It is probably not a coincidence that this discussion has come up right now. Our taxes are due May 1st.
I think Jon has worded my own opinion very well too.I'd like to have it all free online myself, but felt a need to point out that somebody somehow has to pay for things. I hate the fact that people keep assuming the great god government can keep providing this and that and the other thing and then they complain when taxes have to go up.So locally the way that plays out for me is that the costs of the building dept should be paid for by permit fees, the costs of a parking lot in a certain location should be paid by fees or permits to those who use it, and the costs of the tranfer station /recycling center should be paid by those who create waste proportionately, etc.Then you get into other things harder to measure and assign costs to - for instance should the police dept costs be paid for by fines to criminals or by assessing those who are protected from crime?
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I watched "Charlie Wilson's War" last night.I enjoyed the movie, but I couldn't help but reflect on the incredible amount of money spent on the Afghan-Soviet war by the US.I think the total of what we (the US) contributed was around $2b.I'm not saying that it wasn't a worthy cause, nor do I want to get in to a discussion about that war vs. the Iraq war, etc.All I will say is that the government (and a lot of the people who make up this country) sure know how to spend money. Other people's money. It's nice to say that we "should" have this, or we "deserve" to have that. I'd rather keep the organizations private and swipe my credit card every three years. At least I can control how much it costs me that way. All of us can still say "no" to buying a code book.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
There is an interesting variation on "user pay" playing out in the town near me. The council is effectively bankrupt, and in an attempt to raise revenues from property taxes, has allowed several large residential subdivisions to go in. This has meant that an additional school needs building, but that's ok because the $14 million will come from Provincial coffers. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.
sorry dude, but canada is NOT a small country. it's freakin' huge. we have a small population, there's a big difference.
Some people think Canada is "in" the U.S.
which is funny since Canada has more land mass than U.S. View Image View Image
Our library has most the code books, ref only, cannot check out.
Took an hour one day in library with digital camera and took pix of appropriate pages, now have an electronic copy. In USA anyway, for personal use only, copying of library materials is legal.
Lincoln county Oregon has them in the liberry(sic) and you can check em out,thats one of the reasons I'm moving there. They have the finest library system I have seen in a county that doesnt have a large tax base
Maybe they can do things differently north of the border but here, for certain, and I believe just about anywhere in the states, the building codes are available online as a matter of public record. If you are required by government to follow certain rules, then those rules have to be freely accessible.
have to buy it if you want to look at it online here. View Image View Image
you got a link for that?
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You coming to my neck of the woods again?
http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/2004_florida_codes/
and the supplements...
http://www.dca.state.fl.us/fbc/thecode/1_code_modifications.htm
and I got the hard copy on my shelves, too.
Edited 4/28/2008 8:28 pm ET by RalphWicklund
Thanks, that may help several people.I'm sure I will be back and forth a number of times over the ne3xt few years. Problem is planning. Mom keeps creating these quasii-medical emergencies and I keep learning more about the holes in the care system in place.I have a good cousin in JAX who just went through all this with her mother, Mom's sister who passed away last year. I've been wanting to visit her and hers in person
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the building codes are available online as a matter of public record
Which, here in Texas, just seems to mean that which IBC & which IRC are in effect are cited. You then get to go find your own copies of the specific code your own self.
Which may be OP's gripe.
Shoot, I still have my battered old SBC around here, since it's occasionally the "in force" code for some parts (until their next City Attorney adopts an IBC/IRC couplet like all CA's seem to of late).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
The city attorny does not adopt codes. They might recommend a change to more current versions, etc.But it has to be a legislative body that adopts them..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The city attorny does not adopt codes. They might recommend a change to more current versions, etc.
But it has to be a legislative body that adopts them.
Well, yest, exactly true. Around these parts, the legislative bodies at the municipal level have a habit of give and take with the CAs. They will "pass by" legislative ideas for the CAs to vet, and expect to get 'pre vetted' info and model code back.
Since present practice is to underpay CAs, they seem to get raises by changing cities. The end rusult of that is that everybody winds up on some sort of the same model code adoption, no matter where.
Good for me, it means many places it's only down to which finicky adoption of IBC, IRC, LSC, NEC, etc. the legislators passed. All I need is to go look them up in Municode or the like, and I know what they want (mostly). Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
let's just hope this version of the code does not produce another
billion dollar leaky condo catastrophe and you are on the hook for the $600
"new" code book in 2012...
no kidding View Image View Image
Google around - that's too much.
Send me $400. I get my code book at city hall for $65.
We are both in Mi. I never new about getting them at city hall, Is that just your municipality or do others do that also?
NJ codes online http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/newjersey/ though not printable.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
I have gotten mine at the Southfield City Hall. I dont know if every town sells them, but they should.
Boy this one has gone off the deep end!!
Depending on what State you are in, it may be online for free. Florida's is.
Mike
NC is free online.
OK, Have U got a link to it?
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http://ecodes.iccsafe.org/nxt/gateway.dll/?fn=main-nf.htm$f=templates$3.0
http://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineering/engineering_home.asp
That first link does not work.The second let me browse around to a summary of the code, but didn't find the whole thing
http://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineering/BCC/Documents/2006_Edition/AdminCode/Appendix_B_BuildingCodeSummary.pdf
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Must be some browser issue for you. I went back to the post and clicked the link. You go over to the left and click contents. I thought the first link was where you end up after opening the second one and going to building codes on the left. When I checked it was the summary. Try this:
http://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineering/engineering_home.asp
Navigation is not all that intuitive but you can get pretty much all of anything I have ever needed.
Edited 4/29/2008 10:01 am ET by rasconc
strange. That is where I ended up when I clicked your second link and navigated around.
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But did you get to the code parts you were looking for? (for which you were looking).
I am not so sure that we really have a 2006 code but just some amendments to the 2002. And as you probably saw it is ICC based not what I said before.
Like I said our county adopts what they want anyway. Last year when I was doing the Credit Union I found everything I needed to do friendly battle with the inspector over egress requirements. Printed it out and asked him where I was reading it wrong, he was out that morning and ended up talking to his boss who said I was right. I told them I would wait til he was in but they said no harm, no foul.
I was not looking for specifics. We don't have code enforcement here. I was looking to see if it really worked to provide information.See, in the history of this whole thing, I have often heard people talk about online versions and never found them complete.It was just a couple years ago that some municipality won a lawsuit about the copywrite and the courts made it possible for them to post the codes online. The whole thing is still evolving.So I asked for links to help folks out who are looking for info.Still need to clarify that by pointing out again that each muni has to adopt a model code ( out of the many available) and then make their own local additions or revisions to it. So what is online from NC or FL is not necessarily what applies to West Podunk, PA
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http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=eopsagencylanding&L=3&L0=Home&L1=Public+Safety+Agencies&L2=Massachusetts+Department+of+Public+Safety&sid=EeopsMassachusetts
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=eopsterminal&L=4&L0=Home&L1=Consumer+Protection+%26+Business+Licensing&L2=License+Type+by+Business+Area&L3=Home+Improvement+Contractor&sid=Eeops&b=terminalcontent&f=dps_bbrs_building_code_7thedition&csid=EeopsTook a little browsing to get there.
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NC WAS free online. I believe ICC changed the way they are handling their copywrite stuff and no more online version for the residential code (2006/IRC 2003) Also, I could never really put my finger on it but I always felt that the NC online version was abbreviated...
Here in VA, we can get the VA USBC (Uniform Statewide Building Code) online for free, but it is only a "rider" on top of the full I codes.Does NC write it's own codes from scratch?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Beats me, I thought it was the IBC
http://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineering/BCC/engineering_bcc_home.asp
You need to take a close look around at those links you are posting to the NC OSFM web site. I think you will find that the current residential code (for example) is not available there. I don't believe that the current (commercial) building code is available there either. There are lists of amendments, but not the full code sets.
According to this page the proposed adoption date was Mar 11. You appear to be correct. I usually found pretty much what I needed there before but appears not any more. The rehab code was pretty complete I thought. My county had not adopted it anyway.
http://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineering/BCC/engineering_bcc_codes_2009_proposed.asp
>> Does NC write it's own codes from scratch? <<
No - for example for residential we use modified version of the IRC2003. I believe it's handled somewhat similar to the way VA does it.
I'm BC Canada. it's not free here, you have to pay more if you want access to it Online. View Image View Image
$400 for the code, add a couple of best practices guides from cmhc and there goes your summer holiday.
For those of us who do mainly residential, I don't know why they don't publish a smaller version containing part 9 and the few bits of part 3 etc. that apply to housing.
I don't see how legislation can be considered as a case for user pay. It should be available in libraries and online free. Having access to the laws that apply to a citizen goes to the core of what it means to live in a democracy.
Oh, it definitely has to be available to the public, but not your own personal copy for free! Our ordinances are available to read at the office, at the library or you can buy a copy
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I agree. For some reason here they won't let you near it unless you fork out the $400.
"For those of us who do mainly residential, I don't know why they don't publish a smaller version containing part 9 and the few bits of part 3 etc. that apply to housing."
I agree. View Image View Image
Who would have thought that the cost of doing business would be such a burden to so many people?
You can purchase the entire 2006 I code set on CD for $315 here.
While I don't like spending a few hundred dollars, it is a three year cycle to you're looking at about $2/week to have everything at your fingertips.
If you just work in residential, you can throw most of them out your window (or at the building inspector or tax collector, your choice) and just get the IRC. That's less than $.50/week.
If I want to use structural steel or trusses, I have to have them stamped. Is that free? No. Are the reference books that the engineer uses to perform the calcs on the aforementioned members free? Probably not.
I also have to buy tools to do my job. Those cost dearly as well. To put it in to perspective, we spent about 30 times more in tools & consumables last year vs. code books.
I would be curious to see how many here do have a current copy of the code book. Hopefully the percentage is better that what it seems to be on most job sites I'm around.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I know many home owners that have a copy of the electrical code book. Because you can buy it cheap. I have an old copy, I think I paid like $10.00 ten years ago.
If the building code was more readily available/affordable. It would cut down on a lot of the stupid stuff people try because the don't know any better. Not everything, but it would make a difference. View Image View Image
"If the building code was more readily available/affordable. It would cut down on a lot of the stupid stuff people try because the don't know any better. Not everything, but it would make a difference."In theory I agree with that, but look at it in practice ...most carpenters throw away the install instructions for doors and windows without giving it a glance, then do stupid things that cause leaks or other unsatisfactory performance. They just don't read what is free and easy available anyways, relying instead on what they assume or what Cousin Clem once showed them to do.
There are good summaries of codes written in easy to understand language for a decent price. How many carps or builders own one of them?
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I'm think that comparing instructions that come in box with something to someone who goes out and buys a code book to read and use, is apples and oranges.
thats just my opinion. View Image View Image
Might be, but the point still applies - guys often fail to read necessary instructions.
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I can't speak for everyone, but I can tell you that the guys who have worked for us show an aversion to reading code books or other reference materials.I bought a copy of the IRC 2003 for an employee a few years and he never cracked it (by his own admission).I've made an effort to make educational materials available to guys who work for us. Again, for the most part, they have no desire to take advantage of what I'm offering.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Speaking of reading codes, Piffin, I'm not sure if the inspectors in this area actually read them or can interpret them. Two illustrations:
The inspector who said that if the range hood could not be vented outside, then no range hood could be installed. So the builder had to rip out the recirculating model he had just installed over the range.
The inspector who routinely passes electrical outlets placed directly behind cooktops. Surely that's at least a safety issue, even if it isn't in the electrical code. These aren't GFCI outlets, so what happens if your hand slips and the pasta water ends up where it shouldn't be??
These just seem bizarre to me!
>> The inspector who routinely passes electrical outlets placed directly behind cooktops. Surely that's at least a safety issue, even if it isn't in the electrical code. These aren't GFCI outlets, so what happens if your hand slips and the pasta water ends up where it shouldn't be?? <<
I'm not sure what the NEC says about that, but maybe you should know before making comments about incompetent inspectors. Yes - that's right, sometimes code doesn't include common sense and the idea is that inspectors are supposed to enforce the code - whatever that may be...
Maybe I'm wrong - not sure. I'll get someone to look it up with the next post ;-)
OTOH, how do you know that the outlet in question is not chained off another GFCI?
Bill:
Can you please shine some light on this, form a previous post: "electrical outlets placed directly behind cooktops"
That is one of those that would probably depend on where the comma's are place.Now if the receptacle is designed for ignitors on a gas stove or cooktop then it would logic, but it would be placed below the countertop and does not need to be GFCI protected.But it "serves" the countertop then it has to be GFCI protected.My guess is that if it was above the countertop level then it would treated as serving the countertop.And receptacles that service the counter top are needed so that any interrupted section of the countertop is within 2 ft of a receptacle.So I suspect one in an interrupted section (cooktop in this case) would not counted as one of the required receptacles..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Right... but I guess the Q was are receptacles prohibited from being installed above a cooktop?
Every stove I've owned has a receptical built in above the cooktop next to the controls. Does that count?
Outlet on stove.... I'm thinking it does....
Back to your initial topic for this thread, if you look at this page it shows a price list for our NC code books. As you see the most expensive book is $85. the one at the bottom of that page that is $66 is the one that I assume pertains to this discussion. It's maybe 500 pages and comes in a binder. So the prices are reasonable, but if you wanted to get a complete set one could spend upwards to a $thousand. I have three of the books on the list for a total cost of around $200.
One thing I never got is what exactly you got for your $400 (Canadian I assume)? Is it one book or a set of books? Approximately one hundred, 1,000, or 5, 000 pages?
Another thing I didn't quite get is is the code book(s) you bought completely written by the government or is a model code that has been modified? And BTW - in Canada, does each providence have a separate code or what? - ie is the book(s) you bought for all of BC or what?
I agree that $400 is way too much for a single book. If you walk into a book store there aren't many books that over $100 (I would think). Maybe the $400 is just another example of how efficiently government works... Is the Canadian government like that too? I just had 3 building permits help up for 2 weeks because the lady who issues the permits couldn't figure out what the error on her screen meant... Never did figure out... Should code books be free? No - is anything worth having free? Not in this life... How about free to GCs? OK, but then the yearly licensing fee would have to go from $150 to $300 - or whatever - Oh-oh wait - I don't need new books every year... They only come out every 4 years or so... Hows's that gonna work?
BTW - for others reading this when I just looked up the exchange rate I was interested to see that Canadian and US dollars are currently valued within 1% of each other...
I conceed to the current master, you are more up to date than I. Thanks for the e-mail discussion! I am pretty sure that the plumbing and accessability codes online are complete and free though and appear current per the order form.
Bob
That's pretty interesting about the NC plumbing code, but I can't seem to find it online. The NC OSFM web site search function is pretty pathetic. Got a link? I'll print it tomorrow if I get to the office.... I already have the accessibility code book.
I could have sworn that the plumbing listed on the order form was 2002 but after relooking it says 2006, below is 2002.
You go to the doi fire marshal main page and you hit document and you should get this page:
http://ecodes.iccsafe.org/nxt/gateway.dll/?f=templates$fn=contents-nf.htm$3.0&tt=main-nf.htm&t=contents-nf.htm&tf=_self
Click plumbing and get this.
http://ecodes.iccsafe.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=contents-nf.htm$cp=Plumbing$tt=main-nf.htm$3.0
This gets you the amendments for the 2006:
http://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineering/BCC/engineering_bcc_codes_2006_approved.asp
Edited 4/30/2008 11:48 pm ET by rasconc
Edited 4/30/2008 11:58 pm ET by rasconc
Thanks for the links. I was really looking forward to getting a free plumbing code book, or at least an online version. Unfortunately that isn't the current plumbing code. What you linked to is the NC 2002 plumbing code which is based on the IPC 2000 as shown on the fist page of the document. The current NC plumbing code is IPC 2003 with the 2006 NC amendments that you linked to. Take a look at this page. That is the book that is offered for sale on that code book price list I linked to.
You see when NC went to the I-codes they started handling things differently. Prior to that they would periodically publish amendments (changes) to the code books but keep using the same book. For example In the case of the residential code every few years you would just get some new blue pages to update your red CABO book - we used that same book form 1994 to 2001 - if memory serves. Prior to that we used the same residential code book from 1978 to 1993 - that was the small format book. When they started with the I-codes (around 2001) each time a code cycle comes up they adopt a new model code and put their amendments on top of the new model code - so you have to buy a new book every time they adopt a new model code, but you have to buy the one with NC amendments - or maybe you could buy current the generic ICC book and go through and make changes.
That is not to say that all NC codes are changed every 4 years (or whatever). For example the Accessibility code (that you linked to) is based on the 1999 model code and hasn't had any (NC) amendments since 2002.
This whole thing the way NC handles their code changes and updates is confusing. At least with the electrical code NC just uses the NEC book as-is (with very few changes that I know of).
One small advantage I have is that I live maybe 8 miles from that main place in Raleigh where they sell the code books - Chapanoke Drive.
Maybe I should have run for the DOI position and straightened them out. (:-) A cousin just retired as a fraud investigator in the DOI. The stories are unreal.
They need to get the website cleared up with some caveats. Like some banner over the first page of each of thse free items saying that they are replaced and for reference only.
Edited 5/1/2008 8:21 am ET by rasconc
the BC building code is for all of BC but some municipalities have some additional requirements like sprinklers, required in Vancouver but not in Richmond and if that is not enough the home warranty people also want to have a say in how we build our houses.
I'm thinking you mean the outlet is actually a part of the stove. I've had one like that, but it's been a long time. My builder's ranges don't have one, but there are outlets serving the countertops on either side of the unit. Or there should have been. In one case I mentioned the outlet that should have been over the adjacent countertop ended up behind the cooktop.
It's possible that the outlets were chained to a GFCI; we've done that in a garage, so I'm familiar with the process. In these instances, I have no idea, but I would certainly hope so. Having been a kitchen/bath design instructor, I've used the NEC in classroom work, but I don't refer to it on a regular basis these days because I'm not the one doing the placement of outlets anymore.
What I really question in one instance is why the inspector would pass the placement when it could have been easily moved to over the adjacent 24" counter that ended up with no outlet.
I think the inspectors in this area do a pretty good job overall, even if I do sometimes shake my head at weird code requirements and the inspectors' interpretations.
I'm totally with you on the advantages of giving people CHEAP, if not free, access to building codes- at least the core parts. It removes the excuse to be stupid. It absolutely will NOT eliminate stupidity, but it will remove the excuse!
That $10 copy of "Electrical Code Simplified" was worth its friggin' weight in gold- that's the right approach for the basics! You don't need the sections on Class 1 Div 2 or 3-phase wiring to do some basic mods to your house. And if I couldn't have found the OBC on-line through CanLII, I would have gone to the library and digitized the sucker. There's no way a homeowner should be expected to shell out $300+ for codebooks PLUS building permit fees just to do some basic renovation. And we DIYs are the folks who need the code guidance MOST, not being in the business at all and hence having nothing whatsoever to calibrate our commonsense.
Want to license contractors and give them free copies of the current codes with their yearly fees? That'd be sensible in my view- as long as you enforce the licenses so they're worth more than the paper they're printed on.
Makes sense to me. I have a lot of home owner friends that are always asking me questions of how stuff is suposed to be - like I'm the code book!
If the the info was accessible online, it would make a difference to a lot of people.
we're not talking about building your house from a kit that comes with all the instructions in a box that someone is just going to throw away cuz he's a "man" and refuses to read it. We're talking about the people I know who read books, are on forums like this, asking guys like Piffin what size a header should be or what are the rise/run requiremetns for stairs etc, becuase they want to know. View Image View Image
Electrical Code Simplified is fantastic. If they published a Building Code Simplified by the same guy I'd pay $400 no questions asked.
a breathe of fresh air, you are!
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my lumber yard always has an updated copy of the building code at the contractor's desk, as well has email, fax, phone access, and coffee (not as good as timmie's, but still).
FWIW, they should be available at your local library