Hi Everyone,
I have an “walk-up” apartment building and have had a couple of requests about the possibility of adding an iron gate to the front of the building. Based on what I’m seeing, I don’t see a way of which one could be added that would be code-compliant, but I’d like to see what everyone else has to say. I’m in the San Francisco Bay Area.
It has always been my understanding that for any gate (or door), there needs to be at least 36″ square in front of the gate (or door) and 36″ square behind it, basically providing a landing on either side prior to any steps. I believe this is code and if someone knows the actual code, I’d really appreciate knowing so I can refer to it. Of course if I’m wrong in my interpretation, then please let me know that do.
The way the front of the building looks now, folks would have to walk up about 8 steps to get to the first landing. If there was a gate there, then a person entering the building, would have to be standing on the steps when opening the gate, so they could step up onto the landing. Or otherwise put, when leaving the building a person would be on the landing, and open the gate and step immediately down onto the first step. I don’t believe this is code compliant, as I believe there needs to be a landing on the other side of the gate, but I wanted to hear back for the folks here.
Thanks,
Tark
Replies
A shameless bump. . .
Since people aren't knocking each other down to answer this, I would just suggest that you call your building inspector's office and ask. Seems like you should only need a landing to allow for the gate to swing open and not one on the other side, but common sense doesn't always apply to building codes!
First. Which code is used in your area. Second. Since Ca. is famous or infamous about building codes, any advice you get here may or may not apply.
However, if they are using the "International Residential Building Code" you might check Section R311, Means Of Egress.
If this is a required exit, I think you may be right. Sorry, this is the best I can do.
could you solve the problem by instead of swinging have it slide along the side of the fence?
Well, it's a whole can of worms by its lonesome.
If you have steps, you might be required to change to ramps. But, I'll leave aside the ancilliary stuff.
For barrier-free access, typically you need 60" deep (if 36" wide) on the swing side, with 18" additional width on the latch side (so you can park out of the swing). On the other side, since it is open, 36" x 36" probably suffices.
But, having been through this before, you really need to know all of the existing dimensions from door threshold to property line, with elevations--along with whatever controlling code applies.
Sliding gate might help--will certainly help meet access requirements for actuators.
All I can give you for 2¢ without plans/photos etc., and even then, it would be hazarded guesses.
Thank to everyone that responded. Any addition of an iron gate is completely optional at this point, I'd certainly follow-up with the building department. To someone else's point, a gate could swing out onto and above the steps, and then the landing there is about 36" deep. It just that when someone where to leave the building, they would open the gate out, and then immediately step down a few steps. I'll look up the code that some else mentioned.I guess the key question here is, is a landing required on either side of a gate (or door), if so, what are the minimum dimensions of that landings?Thanks Tark
Not sure of what you got, but could you place the gate perpendicular to the walk on the landing? You may have to inlarge the landing but if your fighting the grade this may be an option.
the key question here is, is a landing required on either side of a gate (or door), if so, what are the minimum dimensions of that landings?
Uhm, probably 36" x 36" (no slope greater than 1/24) open side, and 36" x 60" (no slope < 1/24) swing side--works out as gate plus a bit more than 24.
In Texas, any steps would be a no-go.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Thanks! I know you mentioned this in your earlier post, but I just needed it repeated.
You gotta ask your inspector, but any door (gate would be construed as a door) does need a landing 36x36 on each side, and a porch is allowed to be 1 step down at front door, if I recall IRC properly. Have not read about it in a while.
With that said, you could be opening a can of worms by trying to do anything as the code dept could ask for major improvements.
I'd go in asking hypotheticals of the inspector and not give address so you can learn what they require and if they could make you improve up to current code if you change anything.
Only your local JHA can give you a solid answer - and that can vary with whomever you talk to on a particular day. - lol
Someone else mentioned ramps and depending on where you are in the Bay Area, ADA compliance might come into play.
Didn't bother reading the whole post after seeing 36". Think ADA compliant, that I believe is 42".
A while back there was a thread started here by some guy in CA who had changed out a back door and the BI wasn't gonna allow the existing configuration of a step outside the door or something like that. Can't remember any particulars, except that what came out of that thread is that CA building codes relating to this topic are different than other states. Try E-mailing your local building inspections department. That way, hopefully you will end up with an answer in writing from your local AHJ. (authority having jurisdiction). If the answer is NO - then you probably don't need it in writing.
BTW - you didn't really address this, but it's kinda common sense to not have a door (or gate) swing out over steps. Here if it swings away from the steps it's OK (code wise) as long as it is not the principal egress door for the building. Principal egress needs a 3'x3' platform outside. This is normally (but not always) the front door. Also, codes for multi family dwellings (more than 2) are different than for single family and duplex homes. But again, our codes are different. Even so, I think what you are proposing would be a judgment (code interpretation) call by the BI.
CA is ok with doors that DON'T swing over a step. Every house I've been in with a crawl space under the living space and a door between the living space and an attached garage has a step in the garage and the door swings into the living space.These doors are also required to be fire rated and have at least one self closing hinge. In my house, I backed off the tension on the closing spring so I can leave the door open for cross ventilation. I won't do that for a customer, but I have been known to give them detailed instructions on how to adjust the tension - after I'm gone. - lol
You might want to take a look at this thread.
BTW - I doubt that a garage door is considered an egress.
Here, we have to use a fire rated door in that location too. The spring hinge is not required. Come to think of it probably should be. Fire doors don't work very well for that purpose when they are open :-). On the apartments we build, the unit doors are fire rated and are required by code to have the spring hinge. That is under the commercial building code though.
Interesting thread. I was surprised at the need for a landing for a sliding patio door. I know that I've seen many two step arrangements out of a slider onto a patio.The garage door isn't considered an egress, but the fire rating exists between the garage and the house. I once had to inform a homeowner that the "bumpout" in his dining room that extended into the garage (done by a previous owner) didn't meet the fire code. He wasn't very happy about that. - lol
Yea - my old neighbor built a "bump-out" into his garage to make his kitchen a few feet bigger.... I really don't think that he had the concept that he had put a ~9'x12' hole in a load bearing wall.... Thought it was a good time to mind my own business though. I know they thought I was a know-it-all when it came to building... He was a smart and successful business man (restaurant business) but based on some interaction I had with him and the fact that he was an immigrant and told me that he only finished 7th grade I wasn't entirely sure about his literacy and other basic skills.
Everyone,Thanks again for your comments, they really do help. The building is a 6 unit walk-up apartment that's at least 50+ year old. I'm assuming commercial codes apply. The location for the gate is the principal entrance/exit to the building. Based on what I've read here, I would need a minimum of a 36"x 36" landing on each side of gate, which does not exist at this site. The one landing in question is only 36" wide and 32" deep, and there is are 14 steps above the landing and 9 steps below it Even if only one landing was required with the gate swinging out below the lower steps, I still do not appear to have enough area for even one compliant landing, much less two.thankfully, this gate installation is completely optional.If I've mis-interpreted anything, let me know, but my sincere thanks to everyone that responded.
Edited 3/2/2009 5:17 pm by Tark
Something I haven't seen mentioned is that the gate must meet egress requirements in terms of latches or locks.
Egress doors require no more than two simple hand motions to operate in residential.
Adding a gate without a simple push panel for exit might be a problem.
Good point.You could reach through the gate and let yourself in.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood