I have to build a couple of interior panel doors out of clear fir and I was wondering if biscuit joining the rails and stiles would be a viable alternative to dowelling or tenons.
Edited 3/11/2006 2:47 pm ET by TGNY
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Edited 3/11/2006 2:47 pm ET by TGNY
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The only frame/panels doors I've built were for cabinets, but even then I wouldn't think of anything other than mortise and tenon; it's THE joint for such an application. Really, I'm a huge fan of biscuits, and maybe they would work, but I just don't see it lasting very long. This would be a perfect time to buy a dedicated mortising machine. They are great for this sort of thing.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Nick, just looked at those mortising machines, they actually aren't that pricey.
I got mine back in early 90's when they first came; a Delta made in England. It was pricey at the time, but it's been well worth it. Designed/built a cherry grandmother clock that had a tapered base on three sides, the mortiser came in handy for that, as well as the cherry pencil post bed. Haven't used it much lately, though.
Good luck.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
You didn't say what size doors you were building. I would not use biscuits. If they are cabinet doors and you have limited tools and skills then I would use a dado and tendon approach. This can easily be done with only a table saw.
They are full size doors. I was planning on dado and tenon, haven't done it for awhile though. I recalled reading somewhere a technique about using biscuits, hence the question.
I was planning on dado and tenon, haven't done it for awhile though. I recalled reading somewhere a technique about using biscuits, hence the question.
Seems to me that biscuits aren't getting their proper due here. I'd also favor mortise and tenon, but if your grain orientation is correct. I see no future problem with biscuits, which are very little less, if any, than cope and stick.
Here's a joint (the miter, not the mortise and tenon) that relies solely on 2 biscuits (#20). No problem with 500 lbs of occupants. I have had visitors who knew something about woodworking ask if it really was OK to sit on the bench. Always tickles me.
A good biscuit joint will pretty much always outperform a poorly fitted mortise and tenon. Not to suggest that you won't make a good one, but too tight or too loose has problems. And very dependent on the glue of choice.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Nice bench Tom. The doors I'm making are going to have stiles and rails made out of 2x6 and 2x8 stock, so I'm thinking that the mortise and tendon is probably going to be the way to go.
so I'm thinking that the mortise and tendon is probably going to be the way to go.
Absolutely. One thing you don't get from biscuits is much lateral strength. My bench doesn't allow twisting at the joint, unlike a passage door. My small point was that biscuits are incredibly strong, if used appropriately. I've had visitors who knew a little about woodworking ask if it really was safe to sit on the bench.
Mortise and tenon (I hope that was a typo, not a body part <G>) is simplest cut on a band saw with through joints. Blind usually means either you use a mortiser, or a tedious job with a plunge router and a jig. I recently bought a mortiser. And have a number of router tenon jigs hanging on my shop wall.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Like Nick said, I like bisquets but I wouldn't build a passage door with them.
If you don't have the tooling to make a typical mortis and tenon door here is another option that I've used a number of times. Ive seen some of these doors ten years latter and they are still as solid and true as the day they were installed.
Pocket screw the door pieces together like the illustration(or like a typical face frame) and then sandwich those three pieces together, in the order that you see them pictured.
I use epoxy most of the time but yellow glue seams to have stood up well.
When I do interior doors I make three layers sanding or planing them down to just under 1/2" thick. I usually end up with doors a little over 1 3/8" but I prefer it that way. If I was making an exterior door I will make 5 layers.
Doug
Thanks for the sketch (looks like a Picasso <g>).
Question, how do you get the panel in if you have to laminate the frames together first?
I put the panel in afterwards, using window or panel stop. Glue and nail whatever trim you chose to hold the panel in place.
These cypress doors were done with a transparant plastic using a simple 3/8" X 3/8" stop.
These doors (Wanut doors)were done the same way but the moulding is a bit more complex but the same principle and they have held up to the weather of Iowa for a number of years without a hitch. they are the 5 layer variety.
If I could only get the same money for my simple sketch that Picasso did for his I'd be one happy camper!
Doug
Hope your not on the old knob and tube, some of these pix may be to big.
Vey nice doors Doug. The walnut doors look like they would costs as much as a Picasso.
Interior doors are fairly easy. I wouldn't think of using this method for exterior doors due to the weathering stress they sustain in their life.
But I have built 7 doors so far. the first 4 are 13 years old and made of oak. despite the slamming of 3 teen boys they survive unscathed.
Standard cope and stile using the rockwell 1/2 inch shaper bits. I used 1-3/8 stock and milled it all on the cranky old craftsman 1/2 inch spindle shaper. Tightbond (no numbers at that time) for the glue joints and oak faced plywood for the panels. No dowels or morticing.
The next three are 5 years old, 1-3/8" walnut rail & stile same thickness with raised panel walnut panels. Tightbond III this time. Beautiful & solid.
A LOT depends on the fit of the copes. Test several cutoffs before you commit good stock but it does hold very well. Of course don't be afraid of glue (except on the panels.
Don't use biscuits or the pocket screws. Not enough glue surface area to take the pounding. (you need to know that endgrain to sidegrain is a worthless joint. you might as well use coffee as the glue) I'd do a lap joint before I did that. Sidegrain to sidegrain is as good a glue joint as you'll ever make.
Plus it is a reason to buy a shaper. That was my reason!
Edited 3/11/2006 4:40 pm by booch
Edited 3/11/2006 4:42 pm by booch
Booch, thanks for the info. I'm probably going to end up with a shaper, mortiser and a planer before I'm through. LOL. Still would be cheaper than the custom quote I got from Simpson.