Merry Christmas All,
I’m on my small town’s city council: we have a set of very vague and ambiguous building ordinances. I have volunteered to research re-writing them.
As I’m investigating, I see that various communities have vastly different requirements as to what actions require a building permit.
So, here’s your chance to vent: what have you experienced about permit requirements that is wrong, or right, or just plain stupid?
Thanks for the input!
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Replies
Dakotan,
My pet peeve is requiring permits for things that are not safety related. A while back I was redoing my roof, and pulled a permit (whether a new roof is safety related is in itself a good question). I told them I wanted to install a skylight. I was told I had to get the manufacturer and model of the skylight before I could get approval, so they could determine if it met their "esthetic" standards (I don't belong to an association or have any CCRs).
Keep it to actions where a mistake could hurt someone.
Burt
It would probably be overkill - and you may stir up a lynch mob - but a good way to start would be to look into adopting some of the "standardized" codes (UBC 1997, UPC 2003, UMC 2003, and NEC 2002).
Building codes are supposed to establish minimum standards to ensure the health and safety of the general public. Most people I work for totally support the concept of codes, but will jump thru every hoop in sight to avoid the permit process - often for very valid reasons.
Some of the reasons are:
When/If you do create or adopt a code and permit process, make sure it "works" for the people in your town. Too many people see the building department as a bunch of government bureaucrats with cushy jobs who make pronouncements between their breaks. What they need to see is an agency that can explain things and can help them make it work for them.
Believe me, Dave, we WILL be adopting the international codes... but the permitting process is what I really want to overhaul.
Ours is a town of 770, so the beaurocracy aspect is not such an issue... I would just like to adopt a permit policy that is clear and fair and appropriate.
As it stands, no one is exactly sure what actions require a permit, consequently, many folks just skip the whole process.
Around here, if it increases the taxable value of a property, it requires a permit.
Around here, if it increases the taxable value of a property, it requires a permit.
For me, that would be an easy one to get around because:
If I build without a permit, it devalues my property, thereby reducing the taxable value, so, I don't need a permit!!
Right?
blue
I guess it would depend on the quality of your work :)
Do you live in the USA and if so, hasn't your state already adopted model building, mechanical, electrical and plumbing codes?
This all will become rather complicated though, and if you all really want to do this, you need a building professional on staff to review permits/plans and maybe to enforce codes too. Around here some of the small towns "sub out" the permitting and inspection process to "The City".
Anyway, to address your Q more directly, from the web page of the city I am building in these days: "The primary function of the Permits Division is to review proposed project plans for building and zoning code compliance and issue the appropriate permits." And here is a web page document that outlines all of the permitting process for building homes:
http://www.raleigh-nc.org/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_2_100390_0_0_18/RESIDENTIAL_PLAN_SUBMITTAL_GUIDE_2005.doc
Edited 12/27/2006 6:46 am ET by Matt
You dont say where your from and your profile isnt filled out so......
I came from a small town of about the same population as you and what I'm wondering is not the codes that you adopt but the permiting, inforceing and inspections of those codes. Who is going to pay for this? Does your town have the budget to handle the added expense.
How much building is going on in a town of 770? Are you on the fringes of a larger town that is expanding out your way? If so then I see where your concerns are.
Could you hook up with a nearby town or the county that your located in in order to share the expenses. Usually a town of 700 does not have enough building going on to warrent the hiring of more addministration, however if you foresee a large population growth in the very near future then I suppose its worthwhile.
Just some random thoughts on the subject.
I'm luck in that I live in an area that doesnt have permits and I prefer to keep it that way!
Doug
Permit fees cover costs of the building department in generaal, but in such a small town, it does get lopsided. They are usually part time retirees or shared with another town or subcontracted from the county or whatever.Our enforcement is based on land use ordinances and no building coeds.The state requires that a town with a population of more than 2500 must enforce one of the major model codes. Our census reports only 880 or something like that, but so many summer and three season folks consider some other state their primary residence to beat the excessive income tax in Maine. We may really have over two thousand or more population.so every few years we have to deal with the question, do we require licensing or do we require permits and building code?Well, IMO - licensing only hits the guys who are already doing some great work. The substandard work is mostly being done by HOs themselves. Permitting and inspection would help theem out. most are not trying to get away with something, but are ignorant of some important issues.We do have one hack here, but he builds under an umbrella that counts him as a HO in that he builds his own house and sells it every two or three years. Permitting and enforcement of codes would catch him up big time.state does require licensing for Electricians and plumbers and requires a state plumbing permit.
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> Our enforcement is based on land use ordinances and no building coeds.You guys are gonna get zapped with an EO lawsuit!!(What?? Oh, you meant CODES? Never mind.)
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
LOL, hey, if you want a co-ed built, we can handle that job too.When you hear them say, "She's really built!" Now you know why;)
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I live in a county in Iowa that does not require a permit for anything except a perk test for septic.
I like it that way but you better pick your neighbors carefully!
Doug
Doug,
Hatton, ND is probably typical of lots of little midwestern towns... economy is primarily ag-based. Largest single employer is the local nursing home. Town is getting progressively more elderly, as most young people (who aren't working the family farm) move away to the big city to find work.
We do benefit from our proximity to the Grand Forks Air Force Base... we're within a reasonable commuting distance: most new residents are Air Force personnel, but they are buying existing homes, not building new. One new home has been built in the last five years.
Our permits are very reasonable ($20), but are required for any MODIFICATION of an existing structure, as well as the construction of any fence or outbuilding and also for any concrete work. Hence:
Re-shingling or re-siding one's house using the same type of materials as currently exist does NOT require a permit.
Repairing a cracked driveway slab requires a permit.
Building a rabbit fence around one's garden requires a permit.
Personally, I'm in complete agreement with those in this thread who have expressed that permits should only be required in situations that effect the safety of the citizenry. I'm leaning toward simple and fair.
Yeah, one problem with rules such as what you describe is that they will be broadly ignored, even in cases where a permit OUGHT to be required. It's not good to have a law that virtually begs to be ignored.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
I'm leaning toward simple and fair.
thats all any of us can ask for!
Doug
You have a town of 770 people. Is there enough happening there to require even one part time building official?
Here in Los Angeles, the LADBS has a staff of 859 people, and they issue 145,000 permits per year. That's about 169 permits per employee. In your town, 22% of the population would have to pull permits to equal the average work load of an LADBS employee. You can figure out some useful work load data from here: http://www.ladbs.org/about_us/AIA.pdf
The only thing that makes any sense at all is to look for a neighboring city or town, and see if you can make a deal to have them handle it for you. Of course, you'd have to start by asking around and seeing if any of them are doing a good job. If not, you may be better off forgetting the whole mess. In that case, just buy a set of Taunton's Code Check books, and try to help your neighbors avoid the worst mistakes.
-- J.S.
My town has some pre-made permit checklists for some common items, like deck and porch building. If you are going to build a porch, they will hand you this sheet and say "this is what we are looking for".
There are probably 10 commonly done things to buildings and dwellings in your neck of the woods (reroofing?, wood balconies?, water heater?). Make a checkoff list that can be given out so every pro and DIY knows what the BI wants in your town.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Execellent point. I've come across many small municipalities that that have also. Not only does that help the home owner, it also helps the professinal who doesn't know what they're doing.
Another issue with building departments, permit process, inspections in the field, many municipalities allow home owners to do their own work. Now, that hurts the municipalities in collecting business license fees from contractors doing work in these towns, but it saves the home owner contractor fees. However, this only works if the submitted drawings clearly indicate what and how work is being done, and most important if the field inspector knows the difference between quality and safe work, and just plain dangerous work.
Yup, we have pretty much the same thing here:
http://www.ladbs.org/faq/info%20bulletins/building%20code/IB-P-BC%202002-004%20TypeV%20Sheet-6-11-02.pdf
-- J.S.
My .02 worth.
Do not write your municipality's codes. Use something like what has been mentioned or the new International Code. then hire a certified , educated and competent person to administer it. Enforce it uniformly, no "good old boy network"
Make use of a review board comprised of seasoned tradesman from all the trades you can enlist (Plumbers, carpenters, electricians, HVAC etc) That believe in the codes as a way of ensuring a level playing field for all to arbitrate disputes between the building official and anyone with an issue with the codes enforcement.
the only purpose of the permit office is to notify the property tax office to raise your tax. As the pupose of the code adminstrator. just adopt a code and leave it only. If you make the plans requireding an engineer stamp then the office does not need to review the plans, just take the money and nofiey the tax cops.
The primary purpose of the permit, and the permit fee, is to involve the inspector, and assure that zoning/building regulations are followed and inspections performed. A permit should be required for anything requiring an inspection, and for issues (such as building placement relative to lot lines) where zoning ordinances and the like are likely to be involved.(On a slightly different note, you want to avoid a permit process that ends up in everyone either needing an exemption/variance to do "normal" stuff, or in everyone circumventing the ordinances by obtaining an exemption/variance. This means that the exemption/variance process needs to be non-trivial/somewhat onerous, but with a well-defined "right of appeal", and the process should be/need to be only rarely used.)I see no need for a permit for a roofing job, eg, unless some covenants need to be enforced, and the need for one when changing out a water heater or the like is questionable.
People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck
The primary purpose of the permit office is to hire the brother in law as the inspector because he is not intelligent enough to get a job at wally world.
you get the dog bones..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Well, the ordinances should include a list of the qualifications for an inspector.
People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck
I guess the Chicago requirement of family bloodline and amount of campaign contributions doesn't work everywhere, huh?
See, in Florida, where BB lives, a roofing permit and inspection is one of the more important codes issues but you consider it un-necessary. You may not have high winds destroying roofs.Then with hot water heaters, a lot of people are hurt in explosions of the same or killed by CO gas from improperly vented ones. I'd say a licensed plumner should be able to change one out with no permit, but a handyman or homeowner should have it inspected.We don't have building codes here, but we build to the highest standards - most of us. Inspections would help save the other ten percent from themselves...;)
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Yeah, I didn't intend to address geography-specific issues. Eg, in CA you'd have major earthquake issues (and likely more detailed plans would be needed). But no more than "standard construction practices" is required for roofs and foundation anchorage in most of the country.But even in FL a basic reroof isn't really a significant safety issue, beyond the danger of a few % more c**p flying about due to loose shingles. A reroof isn't apt to threaten the integrity of the roof.Re water heaters, I think the issue is how often a permit/inspection is going to head off problems. I don't have a good way to judge if it's really true that uninspected water heater installs actually result in "a lot" of problems, especially on replacements. One thing that's often done there is to allow "emergency" replacement without permit but require that a permit be pulled and inspection be done within so many days after installation. I vaguely recall that Sears in Louisville at one time would actually file the paperwork for you, if you bought the heater there.It may be that there should be different rules for gas vs electric heaters, or a requirement for inspection any time the gas is touched.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
"A reroof isn't apt to threaten the integrity of the roof."You haven't done much roofing in florida, have you?Stuff flying off in the wind is more of a major problem than you might imagine. Lot of hacks that used to two or three nail shingles instead of 4-6 nails.
Almost every roof I re-roofed there had some amt of rot for various reasons, so structrual repair is not uncommon.
And sheathing needs to be checked too. They discovered that most of the roof failures from hurricane winds was due to lousy craftsman ship, not nailing enough or missing the rafter/trusses with the staples or nails.
Unfortunately, from what I have heard, instead of increasing the number of inspectors and inspections to be sure the builders were all doing it right, they increased the regulatory burden and requirements but not the enforcement in a lot of places.
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Well, like I said, every locale has certain specific concerns. Here frost protection is obviously important (though not this year). There would be a little more effort to make sure footings are deep enough, the insulation scheme was up to snuff, etc. The plans might be required to call out basic plumbing routing, to assure that anything in exterior walls can be appropriately insulated.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
One other important point, I think, is to be reasonably "friendly" to folks who either forget or "forget" to pull a permit and then get one after the fact. You want to encourage them to pull the permit and get required inspections, and not encourage them to hide the work.For minor plumbing and electrical (where permit/inspection is judged to be required at all), it should be allowed to pull the permit at any time prior to buttoning up (or after that, if the person is willing to open walls as the inspector deems necessary). No big fines, maybe just an extra processing fee if the permit is put off more than, say, 30 days beyond start of work.And further adjustments may be good to accommodate folks who are doing "incremental" work, like the basement remodel that takes five years to complete.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
"A reroof isn't apt to threaten the integrity of the roof."
You haven't done much roofing in florida, have you?
When I lived in a bigger town(here in Ia) I had to get permits to do roofing, that was fine but there was never any inspections related to it.
I think that is a pure case of raising money because they can. Sort-of what Brownbagg mentioned. Why else would a permit be needed. Anybody is allowed to get it so it doesnt weed out the hacks, not that a license somehow keeps one from being a hack.
Permits and codes are all fine and dandy if they are used for good instead of a way to raise money.
Doug
Ever go to do a re-roof and find out that someone had used metal over rolled over asphalt over asphalt over cedar shingles ? I have.
Re roof permits here are to prevent overload of the roof framing members from re roofs done by those who haven't a clue .
Ever go to do a re-roof and find out that someone had used metal over rolled over asphalt over asphalt over cedar shingles ? I have.
NO, and I hope I never do!
Re roof permits here are to prevent overload of the roof framing members from re roofs done by those who haven't a clue .
Thats fine but does someone actually come out and walk up the ladder to see all that? If not then what good is the permit?
I have no problem with the permit concept, but I do if its just a means to make the city money and give people some pie-in-the-sky illusion that they are getting something for said permit.
Doug
When I was licensed in Florida, you only needed a bond and insurance to get licensed, but you needed the license or to be the HO to pull a permit.In that town, if you were roofing with no permit displayed out front, you could be shut down rigtht in th emioddle of the job.The main thing tjhey were inspecting was to see how many nails being driven per shingle. We knew a lot of the inspectors. They would sit in a car down the block a bit and watch, then drive away with a wave, come back later and sign off when the job was done. I always four nailed, but heard stories of guys who were forced to go back over the whole roof lifting tabs...
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taxes suck!!!!! building permits suck as well !!!! it's all about the money!!!!
yea, it's all about the money.
Never mind about safety for the occupants or the surrounding community. Hell you just might end up with a decent building and not a nightmare that is ready to fall down.
Difficult childhood?
You fed the dogs on this one.
Tim
The permit process and it's requirements are there to ensure health and safety for the community. It's a "rules" process that reviews your intention to build, remodel, repair within standards and certain restrictions. Yeah, in the end there is a fee for the treasury and your improvement results in an increase in tax. But there is nothing wrong in the process keeping some order in the community.
It makes sure you're not building on your neighbor's property. It makes sure you and the contractors you hire are qualified for performing the work, even though that is very difficult to ensure. I establishes with the drawing submitted that minimum building standards will be used. Standards that have been established to be safe. It shows that the intended work, if performed properly, will stand and be safe for the occupants. The field inspection is the last opportunity to try to ensure safety of the performed work as well as confirming the honesty of the initial submitted application.
The process doesn't need to be complicated, but it needs to be thorough.
after bieng in remodeling for 25+ years I would say that it should be illegal to sell home improvement materials to any one who cannot pass a basic competancy test.
especially caulk and double-especially silicone caulk.
"And the Grinch, with his Grinch-feet ice cold in the snow, stood puzzling and puzzling, how could it be so?
It came without ribbons. It came without tags. It came without packages, boxes or bags.
And he puzzled and puzzled 'till his puzzler was sore.
Then the Grinch thought of something he hadn't before! Maybe Christmas, he thought, doesn't come from a store.
Maybe Christmas... perhaps... means a little bit more!”
“And then the true meaning of Christmas came through, and the Grinch found the strength of ten Grinches plus two. “
Max Rules!!!
Are you talking about building codes, zoning ordinances, or ordinances regarding permitting? For building codes it would be foolish to not adopt an existing model code, though it might make sense to adopt an "old" one vs the most recent.
That is, rather than the most recent UBC, eg, pick the one that's 5-10 years old, and keep it "updated" 5-10 years "behind". This makes it a bit easier for builders to adapt to "new" code rules, and protects everyone from a potential zinger in a new code.
For zoning there are also model ordinances, often prepared by the state. But be wary of ordinances prepared by an organization with an axe to grind -- depending on who prepares it the ordinance may be giving a free ride to contractors, businesses, or folks who want to "control" development.
Look at what nearby cities a little larger than yours are doing, but of course hack through any underbrush of special exemptions, etc.
For permitting, find out what the current process REALLY is (talk to the folks involved), and find out what works for them and what's a PITA or what seems to be stupid or ineffectual. Again, look to nearby, somewhat larger cities to find out what their process is.
And of course through all this you need to be aware of any applicable state or federal rules, and make your stuff flexible enough that it can "bend without breaking" if the state/federal rules change. Seek to create "robust" rules that don't depend on everything being done to the letter in order to have the desired effects.
I kinad think along the lined of what DanH said - It might be better to adopt the IBC rather than try to come up with building codes from scratch.
A couple of towns near here have adopted building codes from other nearby towns rather than coem up with their own. I would think that would save a lot of time and effort.
Generally the things I hate about building codes is when they come up with something ridiculous that's just based on someone's wild-a$$ed idea.
Like there was a town up near Chicago that said every framing member had to be on 16" centers regardless of it's design capabilities. That's just an arbitrary rule that's not based on any real logic.
Another community up there said that roof trusses could not be designed with more than 500# of force in any member regardless of the size and/or lumber grade. (Or something like that) Another ridiculous rule that had no sound logic to back it up.
A county near here has different snow loads based on where the building is located. Buildings on farms have a 20# snow load, while others have 25# or 50#. Like maybe they get less snow on farms?
Another thing you want to be sure to do is run it all past the city lawyer (and maybe have him consult an expert), to make sure that you don't run afoul of EO and ADA rules, and state zoning rules, and to make sure that the appeal processes are appropriate.
People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck
I agree with a lot of the comments given so far. Adopting a national building code is very typical. Including ammendments to the national code for local reasons is very typical.
Zoning requirements are individual municipal regulations of building uses and land coverage in and around town.
The permit process needs to be administered by qualified people. Use of common sense should be allowed. Anal personnel should be dissallowed.
I would take what Dave45 said to heart. If you can reduce or ease those reasons then people will be more likely to go through the pemit process.
Also it is nice to be able to look up the history of a building you are working on to see what and when something was done.
If you want a permit process that makes sense, particularly in the area of remodeling (as opposed to new building). Remodeling being anything done within the existing footprint and under the existing roof.
1. Fixed price permit fee, regardless of the amount of work (and keep the fee low, to encourage compliance).
2. A SINGLE inspector for every aspect of a given house.
3. Minimal plan requirements. Basically a statement of what is being done.
4. IF IT ISN'T BEING TOUCHED, no requirement to bring it up to code.
The problems in remodeling are legendary. There was a thread not too long ago about someone doing some demolition in order to figure out what structure they were going to have to do, which they needed to know in order to make the plans, which they had to have in order to get a permit. They got a stop work order because they didn't have a permit. They needed to do the demolition in order to get the permit. It's a Catch-22.
No one ever knows what is going to happen in a remodel. One of the reasons for avoiding a permit in a remodel is to avoid having additional work required, beyond what is being done. Most people don't want to be forced into doing additional work, so item #4 prevents that.
Plans are generally required so that inspectors know what is being done, and how it is supposed to be done. Remodeling doesn't work that way. Hence the requirement for a simple description of what is being done, and a single inspector for every aspect of the work. Remodeling just doesn't progress in the easy foundation/frame/rough in/finish type progression. There may be some framing with some rough in, plus some final wiring, plus some finish plumbing, all at once. The inspector inspects what is being done, in order to make sure that it is done appropriately. Regardless of the progression.
I disagree. Plans is many instances (notice I didn't say all instances) are necessary to show that remodeling which involves structural work has been identified and is being addressed in a particular way. Of course field situations do come up, that's why site observation is a good benefit. However, not every contractor or do-ti-yourselfer (not the same thing) who thinks they've read every possible article on the subject thinks they need any more assistance or expense.
True, plans give the reviewer something to approve, and that is useful. Then the inspector is supposed to make sure what is approved and on the plans is what gets done.But this just doesn't work in remodeling. Just one of the many reasons people avoid the permitting process.
No, it does work in remodeling. I've seen it done in the big city, and in the little towns. Remember, remodeling is a very broad term. What are you remodeling? Changing the trim, refinishing the floor, hanging new doors, opening up bearing walls, creating a two story space, gutting out level and creating a cathedral ceiling by removeing flat ceiling joists, adding on two new bathroom with 8 new plumbing fixtures on and existing 3/4" water service which already services 12 plumbing fixtures, heating and cooling a newly built out basement and attic?
For certain projects it's extremely necessary. At least it also allows competetive bidding to be done so that comparison of apples to apples can be done instead of apples to a guy named Bubba who has a gut feeling. (I apologize to everyone named Bubba.)
Well Spoken. I agree.
A nearby town requires plans. They have gridded paper. If it is a project with typical situation, then a sketch with details about joist sizes etc. is enough.I gives the BI something to communicate with without requiring the expense of plans.Bubba can reassure the BI he is going to use the right joists and connections in his $500 deck without spending $500 on plans.
You're writing about a project of adding on a deck, probably a basic deck. In a small town where the amount of permit applications is relatively small and everyone knows each other, I have no problem with a home owner, carpenter, or deck building contractor submitting a drawing to a building department plan reviewer (well qualified to reviewer construction drawings and construction work). Absolutely, no need to require absorbant costs for plans. But believe it or not, construction of a basic deck is a matter of health and safety and should not be minimalized. Ever hear of the porch collapse tragedy in Chicago? Afterall, I'm sure in someone's eyes, a porch is nothing more than a deck up a few feet higher off the ground than a deck, right?
I agree that a deck is a health and safety issue.I just wanted to point out there are simple direct ways to do things.In these small towns that are implementing building codes, there is a fear the permit process will be complicated.If people understand its really not that bad, they will comply.
I agree completely.
Lack of compliance is EXACTLY the root of our problem.
Yeah, "plans" shouldn't necessarily imply detailed blueprints. What is needed is sufficient info for the code enforcement people to assure that proper lot offsets are observed, proper beam sizes used, etc. Even for a small house, a quick sketch with a notation like "conventional 2x4 stud construction, 16 inch centers, engineered trusses, 2x? joists on 16" centers, central beam supported every ?? feet" should be just about enough. (OK, add in details on foundation and a few other items if you wish.)In fact, the permit office could have a standard form and checklist for this, listing the dozen or so items that need to be called out in a simple case.Mainly, you want to assure that major deconstruction isn't needed if a problem pops up (and so that the builder can't claim ignorance and plead for a variance because he chose to ignore offsets, et al).Detailed code issues shouldn't need to be addressed in the plans -- assume that the builder and his subs have basic knowledge of the applicable codes. With the siting, foundation, and superstructure issues addressed, any screwup on their part will generally be less than $10K of rework, vs potentially $100K or more for the issues addressed by the permit plan.For a small project like a deck scale back the concept accordingly. Just note in the the permit paperwork the rules regarding railings, eg, vs requiring a detailed drawing. The plan should only really need to call out overall height, footing number/size/depth, beams, basic joist plan, and stairway width/rise/run.
People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck
Yeah, I think that's the way the city I was talking about does things. They do it in an easy way that heads off problems.
You are probably using hyperbole` to make the point right?I don't think it is possible to buy the materials for a deck big enough to take two steps on for less than $500
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Bubba's a good shopper :)I was exaggerating.Other towns around here are considering some sort of code. People fear unnecessary complication.If you think I was using hyperbole, you should hear some of the rumors.Permits to replace wax toilet rings etc.
you should hear some of the rumors.
I'm talking with a potential customer who wants to extensively remodel a house she inherited from her mother. It was built in the '50's and has a lot of issues - the worst being a septic system that's too close to a creek.
When I mentioned permitting, she really freaked out. Apparently, she's been talking to "the neighbors" and believes every horror story she's heard. The best one is that the county uses satellite photo's to catch folks doing unpermitted work - or find changes in roof lines to investigate.
Then tell her that's a good reason to get the proper permits. Certainly there are some parts of the country where the zoning/permit/inspection process is maliciously oppressive, but mostly the permit offices are peopled by fairly ordinary folks trying to do the best they can. (OK, often with a little bit of self-preservation thrown in.)The septic problem is a difficult one, though. Very likely the existing system is in violation of current codes and regs about five ways from Sunday, and regs may require it to be upgraded (meaning new, relocated system) if the plumbing is touched or more than a certain % of remodeling occurs. If there's no reasonable way to re-site the system, or if there isn't money in the budget to do it, then she should probably forget about any extensive remodeling.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
Dan -
That's sorta where things are right now. I've told her that I'll only do the job "by the book" and that doing it that way is best for all concerned - her most of all. The place will probably appraise at ~$750k now and could be worth twice that much when it's redone. From what she told me, I think she has more than adequate finances to do it right. I just need to help her get past the paranoia - lol
The septic system may be less of a problem than we originally thought. There is a shared driveway across a creek that splits to two houses. The neighbor tied into the sewer system years ago and I would like to look into the possibility that her father may have laid and stubbed out a connection - or a separate sewer line - when that was done. He was an electrical contractor so the concept may have made sense to him. Unfortunately, that would require searching the county records and that's a big no-no right now - lol
Yeah, if you can get a sewer connection, even if you have to buy an easement from the neighbor, that would be the way to go. But for a house worth that much you could justify an "exotic" sewage treatment scheme of some sort, if need be.Maybe she's afraid that if the inspectors come in they'll find out where the bodies are buried?
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
It's amazing how worked up people get about things.In the county I live in, the tax appraisers are required to inspect every property every so many years. They have data sheets with building dimensions. So they would catch an additon for tax purposes.
the tax appraisers are required to inspect every property every so many years.but what if you got ten apprasers and three million homes. They do ours by satellite.
"The best one is that the county uses satellite photo's to catch folks doing unpermitted work - or find changes in roof lines to investigate."Actually that is being done in some areas..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Yeah, while they're looking for the MJ they might as well check for unpermitted work at the same time.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
Santa Clara County doesn't have the resources (i.e. personnel) to do that. A few years ago there was some talk about San Jose using aerial photography to find unpermitted work, but I don't think it ever happened. IIRC, there were issues regarding privacy rights or unlawful search.
State laws and associated judicial precidents differ as to how much authority a building/zoning inspector has to enter private property, especially without "probable cause".
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
Around here an inspector can "red tag" a house based on observation from the street. I don't know the chapter and verse of the law, but I suspect that it's based on the requirement that permits be displayed. The inspector would see the work, have the legal authority to look at the permit. If he doesn't find one, he tags the house.
The displayed permits requirement can get a little interesting sometimes. I've worked on houses built in the '50's and '60's and the original permits are still on a garage wall. I took one off once and the little old lady owner got really nervous. She thought that they were sorta like those tags on mattresses - lol
Here, the permit only needs to be visible from the outside, in the area of the construction. If you're building a deck out back, that's where the permit is.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
At least one of the article that I saw the work was being contracted out. And they used automatic feature reconigtion software to do the comparisons and flag suspect site that needed more checking..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Almost everyone here missed the posted question, even though it was stated twice.
he is not asking about writing or adopting codes. He is asking about the permitting process. Bryan has a good start on the answer:
1. Fixed price permit fee, regardless of the amount of work (and keep the fee low, to encourage compliance).2. A SINGLE inspector for every aspect of a given house.3. Minimal plan requirements. Basically a statement of what is being done.4. IF IT ISN'T BEING TOUCHED, no requirement to bring it up to code.
Add: quick turn around on the permit application.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
A SINGLE inspector for every aspect of a given house.Is that a single guy for whole house or same guy for all electrical, and then another same guy for framing.because our electrical guy doesnt know electrical, he have hell with framing or hvac.
Those are Bryans comments that I copied. I think he means single, as in 'not married'
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
what everybody else said about using existing codes, etc..
Also, a lot of smaller communities around here subcontract to an architectural firm to do their code compliance/checking. It saves them from having to create a department of their own.
Finally, I'd do some research on what other towns/cities use for their permit requirements, and alter them to your needs. Many of them are very similar. Here's the link to Columbus, Ohio, if you need a start:
http://td.ci.columbus.oh.us/PermitsRegistrationLicenses/permitsapps.asp
I live in a small town that spent several thou on lawyers fees to adopt the UBC.
They made a city employee, who is a part time plumber, the building inspector. Other than knowing about plumbing and being around some construction, he has no qualifications to be the BI.
Whether a permit is pulled depends on who you are. There is no inspection process.
I would actually like to see them do this right. If someone signs off I did my job according to code, it covers my tail.
It eliminates the moonlighters and DIY's that create a mess for the next owner.
Either leave it alone or do it right.
The big problem in a small town is the inspector. One guy is going to have to know structure, electrical, mechanical, fire code, etc.
I see the permit as a service. You pull the permit, somebody tells you the work done on your house meets some sort of standard. If the city can't do that competently, it's a joke.
My understanding is that if you adopt a standard code, then it will spell out what work needs to be permitted.
Check the 1st chapter (administrative or something similar) of the IRC. It goes into a little detail of what needs to be permitted.
The town I live in requires a permit for any change in the footprint of a home, any structural changes, any elect. plumbing or mechanical work besides normal maintaince or repair. Sheds under 120 sq ft without electric don't need a permit. Fences over 8' need permit. Grading usually needs a permit (lots of grading problems affect neighbors). Painting, reroofing (no new sheathing) and most if not all cosmetic work doesn't need one.
Please be aware that the above pertains to homes only. Commerical work and homes above 2 families falls under the IBC. It's a bit more hairy there and more than I care to comment on at this time.
What about "planning"? Any zoning or other restrictions where you are at? That a whole nuther can of worms
Thanks Bobtim,
That seems like a resonable start...
Zoning and Planning?! Yikes! Nope, not gonna EVEN go there.
(There are a lot of perks to living in a very small town... if you know what I mean...)
My little town in Maine has no building code, although plumbing needs to conform to something vague relating to drain slope. Plumbing is the only thing that's inspected. That's right, no electrical inspection, no framing, insulation, etc. Fire stops? We don't need no stinkin fire stops! We do require a building permit, but don't charge enough to support a real inspection process. Any structure bigger than 200 square feet rerquires a permit. The fee is based on the homeowner's estimate of costs. Oddly enough, the estimates are usually pretty low.
I know a little about construction and am able to understand what is going on and to converse with my contractor about methods and materials but most consumers don't know anything. A real code compliance process should weed out really hazardous construction and ensure reasonable energy efficiency. There should be some basic inspection process.
actually, the Maine state plumbing code requires quite a bit more than that! And you paid $120 for the plumbing permit, so get your money's worth!;)In out town, we go by the state model code for minimum requirement size wise - anything over 120 sq ft of structure needs to be permitted. Your town obviously chose to relax this. It is possible for some things to be less strict than the state model, but it takes extra work to get the state to allow an ordinance that is looser. So somebody worked on that.Our fees are calculated based on the drawings and the fee is ten cents per sq ft of living space and five cents for decks, basements- unfinished and garages. Used to be a set fee and a lot less, but that was costing the town money just to process.Main reason for permitting is land use ordionances, not structural and safety as most building codes.
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the Maine state plumbing code requires quite a bit more than that! And you paid $120 for the plumbing permit, so get your money's worth
I don't know what the code requires, but I sure didn't get 120 bucks worth of inspecting. He looked at the drain lines in the basement, told me I couldn't run the grey water anywhere but the septic tank and that was it. No inspection of any supply lines or fixtures, either at the rough or finished stage. I trusted my contractor and his subs, including the plumber and electrician, but for the same reasons others have mentioned, I think even in a small town we need some basic inspection for safety and general structural integrity.
When do we get some winter around here?
It is getting slightly chilly at night now. I might even light a fire tonight.They also make sure you are hooked up right for sewere, either to twon or that the wastewater system is properly designed and installed. Maybe you are on a town system.He was probably also noting the vent stacks, and traps, without mentioning it. That keeps methane gas out of the house, something most people are glad of.
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There is a community here in the thumb of Michigan that has a code that requires any new building to have a roof pitch of 6/12 or more which rules out most premanufactured housing and also brings the cost up on any ranch stlye housing.The community I live in has no code involveing roofing unless it a new home,since the roof provides a mjor part in waterproofing a home I find this to be a little substandard