building your own timberframed doors.
frenchy
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I need to make my own doors for the boat house entry on the lake side. I plan on building them out of black walnut and they will be 4 inches thick (go big or stay at home) I have big enough hinges and yes they have ball bearings on them (four per side) to carry the weight..
My question is, can I use a floating tenon when I assemble these or should I use my regular fixed tenon? I was thinking of using either a 3 inch tenon or a 2 & 9/16ths.
These wiil be a pair of them each 36 inches wide by 8 foot tall
Replies
out of curiousity Frenchy-- i have a dumb question for ya( the answer impacts one of MY projects, lol)
if using a floating tenon-- how are you planning to rout the mortise in the end grain of the rails--boat house doors--I am assuming lo0000000ng rails.
considerably more difficult than for say kitchen cabinet doors.
( my situation is storm windows with maybe 54" rails---assuming your boat house doors will be bigger than my storm windows------)
stephen
Hazlett,
cheat!
Well I was thinking of boring holes into the beams about 4 inches deep (each way) and then turning tenons on the lathe that are 8 inches long.. The verticals are 4x6's and the horizontals are 4x8's except for the bottom which would be a 4x12
I would use two tenons per horizontal except for the bottom which I'd use three. I plan on using Tite Bond 3 since it scored so well in the glue test.
I might go a little longer say 12 inches with 4 inches into the vertical and 8 inches into the horizontal..
I suspect these doors might be a little heavy,.... ;-)
Oh and boring holes into timbers is extremely easy, Milwaukee sells self feeding bits that size (right up thru 4 & 5/8ths which trust me if you are going thru 14 inches of ash is a serious hole..
for your doors you could use a drill press and a forstner bit to ensure everything is straight and true..
Frenchy
Yes you can use a floating tennon - just as strong as your more traditional style tennon.
If this is going on a boat house I'd use marine epoxy .
Doug
DougU,
No it's not really a boat house, it's the doors leading out from my shop to the lake most regularly to be used by the lawn mower etc.. I do plan on keeping a wooden boat in there though to be rolled out across the front lawn and launched. Hopefully I can find my old Chris Craft.. (or something similar)
As far as Epoxy, did you see the recent test of glues over at Fine Wood Working? Tite Bond 111 is water proof and scored the highest for strength.
As far as Epoxy, did you see the recent test of glues over at Fine Wood Working? Tite Bond 111 is water proof and scored the highest for strength.
I saw the test and although I dont dispute any of it I am still inclined to use epoxy when I do a door like your suggesting.
The other thing that I might do if I was going to build a door such as the one your suggesting is to do the lap method, less likely to warp and twist on ya.
This method is how I've build doors like these (pictured) I think they did something in FHB about this a year or two back, not real sure.
The walnut doors I did was layered, in this case 5 layers, with alternating laps. Make three layers one way and the two others make oposite, Then when you sandwich them all together. you'll have a more stable door then that of a solid piece of walnut, or any spieces for that matter.
Doug
DougU,
Wow! I really lust after those doors, would you mind making me a pair? Out of couriosity how long does something like that take you?
Frenchy
Those doors took about a weeks worth of work, off and on!
I can have a set of them for you anytime - where do I send the bill?
Look at Acorns web site, he puts out some really nice doors too and I'd have to agree with him on the epoxy over the TB3.
I've used a different brand of epoxy, cant think of the brand right now but it has some slow and fast set mix so i can increase my open time if need be but usually the normal stuff will do.
Doug
frenchy, that should work, as long as you can get the holes perfectly aligned. However, I think it might just be easier to cut actual tenons...you have had plenty of practice.I would also use either Gorilla Glue or PL Premium.
Edited 9/29/2007 12:34 am ET by jesse
jesse,
I used to use a lot of gorilla glue but the recent test of glues over at fine wood working has me convinced tite bind 111 is the way to go. Gorilla glue even when they exactly followed the direction on it (regarding wetting the wood) scored really poorly in the strength deptartment.
TiteBond 111 is water proof and when a joint failed, the fibers failed, not the glue, indicating that the glue is stronger than the wood.
It must of taken a great deal of courage for the publishers to post those results because I know Gorilla glue spends a lot of money with Tauton press advertizing..
I still use Gorilla glue exclusively on wood I have to steam bend and then build up. but on wood that is dry I have switched to tite Bond 111
As far as making actual tenons while I suspect I've done a thousand or more, I have really wanted to do things this way. More of a test of the soundness of the joint than anything else.. I still need to do some timbers along the stairs and the only possible way to do it is with spring loaded loose tenons. I know that if the timbers on a door are sound the timbers along my stairs will be sound as well.
I did two exterior doors for my brother that sound similar to what you want to do. He used vertical grain douglas fur to match the rast of the house.
All I did was joint all the plank's edges so they were very straight. Then in three places on the door I drilled a 3/8" inch hole through all the planks so a 5/16" threaded rod could gothrough all the planks. At the ends I morticed in the nuts and washers and that was plugged later. These three rods were there to keep the planks tight.
But the planks would want to slip down on the latch side so I doweled it along the edges of the planks to stop that. I assembled it dry to check for fit before gluing it up.
On the inside my brother put a large Z out of 3/4" material with larger antique nails ot bolts. Black wrough iron ones.
So from the outside all you see is the planks from top to bottom. They look real strong and kind of plain compared to most doors but that is the look my brother was going for. On the inside you have the big Z with the wrought iron fasteners which look real beefy too.
I've visited over the years and the doors haven't moved one bit. These two doors are exposed to the elements and are used a lot.
He did seal it real well with a penetrating sealer on all six sides before finishing the door. The end grain is where you really want to seal it several times.
I think one of the reasons it worked is because the door is so thick. The jointed edges of the planks are so thick that when they are held together well they are surpisingly strong. Most doors are so thin these days that they have to made differently. Thick IS good but you have to pay for it and lift it. Something most people don't want to do.
Frenchy,I may be misunderstanding, but I think you are talking about DOWELING << Well I was thinking of boring holes into the beams about 4 inches deep (each way) and then turning tenons on the lathe>>I would be interested to know how you would turn tenons, which I believe are more or less rectangular, on the lathe.Dowels would not be near enough strength for extremely heavy doors such as you are describing.I would consider putting an intermediary rail as well..More shear strength to prevent wracking.I have built a router jig for loose tenons that works up to 3" depths. It could probably be increased an inch or so.It's very simple. I could take a pic or two if you're interested.Alan
Alanj
Yes, big dowels but dowels never-the-less. I mean we are talking about 3 inch diameter and 8 to 12 inches long..
I fail to understand why that wouldn't work and something square or oval shaped would? But I'm not the worlds expert here.. that's why I put the question out there.
Round dowels are not that good.Hoatly has a section on their problems.And I think that 3" would be even worse.Has to do with the dowels and holes change to oval with changes in moisture and crushing the fibers and having limited surface contact afterwards.I think that FWW has done articles on that..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
BillHartmann,
Interesting. I am bold enough to believe I understand wood movement as it shrinks and swells with moisture but I hadn't considered that. Wouldn't it depend on grain orientation of the dowel in relation to grain orientation in the timber?
as long as orientation was the same and the wood was the same wouldn't they each shrink and swell in a similar fashion?
While the verticals would be in a cross grain situation in referance to the horizontal they would still be in that situation if a traditional tenon was inserted as well?
I don't want to go through the book and read and resumerize it as I don't reemember all of the details.Go to the library.Also search the articles at FWW..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
BillHartmann,
I'm sorry to have asked you to do more than you wanted, but thank you for the advice. Frankly I hadn't thought of the issue of wood movement regarding swelling and shrinking. At a minimum I'll be careful to check on grain orientation and I sincerly thank you for that heads up..
The editor over at Fine Wood Working thinks it's fine.
Frenchy -In most situations, a 3" dowel will not have the same strength as a rectangular tenon with the same cross section. If the force on the dowel at the interface between the stile and rail were only in shear, then they might resist the same force. However, if there was a bending moment, along the axis of the dowel, then the round section would place the least material at the top in tension and at the bottom in compression (assuming that type of loading) and the bulk of the wood would be in the middle where it would contribute much less. For that type of bending moment, the use of a rectangular cross section with the height being greater than the width would be a better use of material.Also, if you are using a 3" dowel with a 4" cross section member, then that only gives 1/2" or less on each side of the dowel, which you may want to reconsider...
Add me to the fixed 'standard' tenon. 1/3rd the thickness of the rail. I like through mortising, and wedge the tenons. Through mortising is easier than cleaning up the bottom of a deep mortise, and I have seen windows and doors that are hundreds ( meaning like 200) yrs old, with either no glue or just hide glue, wedged and cross pegged. Still holding up.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Sphere,
Point well taken, it's certainly a well proven technique.. which is why I've made over a thousand of them thus far. I'm seeking something differant because of a design change.
They don't make a pocket screw jig that big..or biscuits..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Sphere,
actually I use my own lag screws for applications this big, they are 12 inches long by 1/2 diamter and there's about a little over 3 thousand of them in this place already. I made my own drill bits for the application. They are two step drill bits with a counterbore welded on.. so with a single drill bit I can drill the pilot hole, drill the shank hole and counterbore it so the socket head on the impact dwrench I use can get in, all of that will be covered up with wooden plugs and inch and a half in diameter..
It was that or have an engineer sign off on all of my construction. Theres also another thousand or so 3/8ths inch by 12 and 1600 10 inch x 1/2 plus a few hundred 3/8ths by 6 inch and around 50 1/2 x8 inch. Because I needed so many I was able to buy stainless steel for as little as 42 cents for each 12 inch x1/2
CaseyR
I've made well over a thousand mortice and tenons building this double timberframe. I certainly know how to do it.. I also understand the strength of the wood I'm working with having worked more than 15,000 bd.ft. of it thus far.
Frankly a 3 inch or 2 9/16ths diameter of black walnut will support the weight of the complete door.. 14 of them is 7 times overkill.. (or at least 6 ;-) Because we're speaking about a round "dowell" rather than a square tenon the spot where it approaches the edge is small compared to the area involved.
My real goal here is to prove the idea will work because I have some timbers which will only go in place using this technique..
Worst case I remake the doors.. at least I won't have to reinstall the vertical posts that make up the stairs should the idea not work..
A true floating tenon will actually be faster to make than a dowel. Just mill your tenon to the desired height & width then run it through the shaper/router with a 1/4 round bit @ half the diameter of the drill you used for the mortises. I usually run long stock then cut to length.
The benefit I am aware for tenons vs. dowels is a significantly larger glue surface area. The comment about greater deformation of dowels than tenons makes sense as well, hadn't heard that before. I'd agree with the poster about doing double tenons - even more glue surface area.
wrudiger,
I plan on using double tenons everyplace but the bottom which will be a triple tenon,
I hadn't thought about making dowels on a shaper makes sense though.
I recommend real tenons (half as many joints to potentially fail) and I'd double them up. That is, twin tenons on each end of each rail. Two tenons at 5/8" to 3/4" thick will get you to the 1/3 guideline, and will double the amount of glue surface. Epoxy and pegs will also be needed. We do this routinely on large gates and big timbers.
The 4" thick material may cause you more trouble than joinery, depending upon its moisture content. All the materials should be acclimated (for at least a year) to the end environment to avoid damaging movement once joined, assembled and in service. 4" of wood will move when subjected to changes in humidity, and the thickness won't prevent it- rather it will augment it some.
Dave S
http://www.acornwoodworks.com
Dave S,
Thanks for that insite, that's why I come here. The wood is really dry,, it's been air drying for nearly 7 years right near where it will wind up.
Epoxy? I take it you haven't seen the test of glues done by Fine Wood Working?
Tite Bond 111 (which is water proof) tested out stronger than epoxy etc..
Well, yes, I have seen the test. Very interesting. I have also conducted my own tests for about 25 years. West Epoxy always wins hands down. I have some samples where the wood is mostly rotted, but the epoxy is hanging in there. Also, the credibility of FW has decreased in my perception from when it was started. I don't know how that would affect a "scientific" testing, but it seems to in my mind. We use some urethane in the shop for it's longer open time than the PVA's, but it only does fair in my tests. The new kid - TB3 - is the same as a National Casein crosslink glue I started using 20 yrs ago, and looks to be the best, next to West Epoxy, with not much distance between 1st and 2nd place. Short open time is the drawback for our complex glueups and the TB3. If your wood is air dry and acclimatized, you have that issue licked. Add a manly frame and a big, medieval latch, and you've got it.