Was having a conversation with a drywall guy today, and curious about other opinions. Are there any circumstances under which you would (not that you have of course) bury a junction box?
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No.
hmmm....
let's see...
1. if I didn't know better.
2. if there were no wires associated with the box.
3. ...?
that's all the reasons I can think of off hand -
Actually on reflection, it was a dumb question but I was trying to simplify a pretty involved conversation down to a short post... must be the heat.
The code says ALL J boxes MUST be accessible and there are no exceptions that I know of. The problem is that the definition of accessible leaves a little to be desired.
"Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building."
The problem with this is that sometimes you have to be a contortionist to get to a box that some other bozo decided was accessible which can lead to unsafe working conditions or cause you to bust into the building structure or finish anyway. Sometimes the installer is not the cause of the problem. Sometimes others make system or structural additions to the building later that make it darn near impossible to get to a box.
Occaisionally we find ourselves stuck having to repair a mistake or damage after the builing is finished or near finished. A creative craftsman can often find a way to conceal a box and maintain accessibility. For example putting it behind a fake air register or in a ceiling next to a recessed can (the can is removeable to make its integral box accessible) . Removeable panels in the finish can also make a box accessible.
I will admit though that in my own house I have buried a box. I had to repair wires that I cut into while making a change (I am my own worst customer). Because I wired the attic I knew exactly where the wire went. Short of 20 hours of drywall work on just finished rock in addition to my three hour repair the only fix would be to splice the romex in a handy box, note its location and bury it in the ceiling.
I would not do that in someone else's house. I do not endorse this practice.
Yes I am an electrician.
Edited 8/5/2005 6:02 pm ET by bos'n
The only problem with burying a box in your house is that the new owner doesn't know about it.
I got one in the attic, its under two foot of insulation. Nobody would ever find it unless I told where to look.
Told this here before, but I found one when remodling my old house because wire leaving one box was silver going to another, but at the other box, the wire was black. I couldn't see any other nearby boxes, so I took out the second box and reached up into the wall and found the buried box. It had metal from a Mr. Peanut can taped over it for a cover. House had been owned before me by an electrician. Also had open splices in the crawlspace.
That is not "burried" by the NEC code. It is still "accessible" as it you don't need to destory any building material to get to it or restore it.But you are right those are common and can be hard to find.It would not hurt to put of survey flags or similar over it and anything else that you thing that you might want to find in the future.I was surprised how much diggint that it took to find the box for a ceiling fixutre that I wanted to extend.
It would not hurt to put of survey flags or similar over it and anything else that you think that you might want to find in the future.that is a real good idea. I have pictures of the location before insulation but I think I will mark the rafter above it too.
When I have to install a Jbox in an attic I try to mount it on rafter or something above the insulation so it can be seen. I don't always have this option but it helps if you can do it.It is not my job to tell you that it can't be done. It's my job to tell you how much it will cost. Here, sign this change order.
I almost always have some short pieces of conduit and some orange spray paint handy. A piece of EMT to the side of the joist sticking up through the insulation at least tells people something is there. A little florescent orange paint makes it easy to spot.
True, that is why you need to leave a note mapping its location somewhere obvious like in the panel that feeds that circuit. Any electricain working on the circuit should open the panel eventually and you would have to be a pretty sofisticated DIY'r to work on my house. I found ways to cram a whole lot of modern creature comforts into a small old house and do it right. I also proved to myself that you can't just go cutting into my walls...they all have stuff in them.It is not my job to tell you that it can't be done. It's my job to tell you how much it will cost. Here, sign this change order.
Wellll... I suppose it would be better than the open splice I have in one of my walls. Gotta get in there and fish that sucker out.
But no, not on purpose.
What are you thinking man??? Starting a thread like this................hit delete NOW before it is too late!
Do a search on buried j box or the like, maybe put my name in there just for fun.............he, he........
Again, hit delete now.
Eric
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Happy reading..............ah.ha.ha.ha.ha!
Buck made me say that!
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First blush is somewhere between No and Hell no not if you held a gun to my head.
But it depends on what you mean by 'buried'. Substitute the term hidden. Code demands that splices, connections, be made up in a box with a cover, safely segregating failed connections, possibly overheated and/or sparking from flammable materials. Further the box has to be accessible without damaging the structure or finish. Nothing says the box has to be plainly visible or dead easy to find.
If a cable goes bad near an old work can light where there is no reasonable access to the space a 'throw away' box can make a lot of sense. You assemble the box the normal way making all the connections within the box and attaching a cover. The box is then tacked into position if possible. Remember your working all this through a four to six inch hole. The can light is then repositioned in the hole and trim attached.
The junction box is properly assembled and is accessible, by removing the trim, fixture and feeling around for the box until it is directly above the hole, but hidden. A note inside the panel and/or can is wise but technically not necessary and long-term likely to do little good. A nice touch still.
This is generally accepted for renovations as long as it is only done where it is otherwise unreasonable to do otherwise. The inspectors I have talked to mention that it is a technical violation of the requirement to fasten the box and staple the cable but they admit that it is miles ahead of what is more commonly seen in such cases, a 'flying splice', one made without benefit of a box.
Similarly with some imagination and thought there is virtually no case where a box cannot be used but hidden while remaining accessible. Walls, ceilings and floors have two sides. Removable panels are relatively easy to rig and often the most difficult situations can be handled by pulling the cable back a stud space or two to gain enough slack to get the connections into a box and the box to a location that is both accessible and acceptable.
One thing I have found is that a blank plate can be painted or papered to virtually disappear. In any case placed low once furniture is in place anything short of a glaringly obvious plate blends. Of course you could hide it behind a door, in a cabinet, face the box into a closet, adjoining room or pointed up into an accessible attic. And a throw-away box remains a last, and mostly acceptable, if not virginally pure, option.
OK... I know I opened up a can O worms with this, so since I have stomped in it with both feet, I'll try to explain the whole story briefly. (See, Eric, if you'd have been home when I called I could've vented and not started this thread).
An acquaintance who I am doing some work for asked me about doing some electrical work while I was at it. I told him that I wasn't licensed, but that as a friend I'd help him out to expedite his job. I have done lots of elec over the years (20 plus)and never ever had a problem including doing much of the wiring in my previous 7000 sq ft business full of heavy machinery and elaborate equipment... anyyyyyyyyyyway.
While the walls and ceiling of the place were stripped out I put in some new outlets, and a new ceiling box. At the time I observed 3 buried boxes, including one in the ceiling. I left em in place, and actually used the one in the ceiling to tie into since it was a foot from where I needed the new box to be. In the process I checked all 3 boxes, one of which was wired poorly (no wire nuts, just tape) cleaned em up and closed them up again.
I get a phone call from the owner that the DW guy left the buried box in the ceiling exposed, since he assumed we were using it for something. I drove over and got into a beef with the guy because he (rightly I understand) said this wasn't to be done and he had already cut it out of the new dw. I didn't bother informing him that he had covered two others. My position was that to correct the situation would have been a huge project, even with the walls open and that if he had any misgivings he should have called the owner who could've called me. I aslo said that since he asked me whether the box was live, he obviously didn't do it out of a safety concern, since he wasn't even aware of whether the box was dead or not. I said I was going to go get some material to see what we could do, but when I got back he had finished the sand painting and left. Also to add insult to injury, he made a horrible mess with all the boxes, new and old, by mudding over them by like an inch or more making my life even more difficult. Now the owner is pissed off because there's going to have to be some kind of patching involved in his brand new ceiling. Now, I am well aware of the code ramifications as well as those that say (and I am frankly among them to a large extent) that a well made connection, properly insulated and protected is a perfetcly safe thing. My big issue is if there was a question, this guy should have made the phone call rather that taking the easy out and leave someone else holding the bag.
OK, I know I'll catch some for this but I figure I'm about due...
The guy I served much of my apprentiseship with had a saying that lives on still.
"So you want to be a contractor eh?"
Sorry Paul.
Your d/w guy may have fricked up, but under whose supervision was he anyway. If you didn't tell him one way or the other, you made an assumption that he would do what YOU wanted in spite of not being instructed as to exactly what to do.
Yeah, he coulda made a call but...............
Clearly written instructions although taking a moment or two to deal with, may save a big headache down the road for you.
EricIt's Never Too Late
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Sorry Eric, I wasn't clear. The DW guy was hired by the owner (as was I) who is acting as his own GC.
Looks like the h/o has a problem then.............whatcha loosing sleep for?It's Never Too Late
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Well...
A) The implication (and I will admit to some extent the reality) is that I didn't comply with code, thereby at least contributing to the problem.
B) I'm a perfectionist German and can't stand thinking that "A" has some truth to it.
C) The whole thing could've been avoided with a 1 minute cell phone call.
Anyway...
Being a contractor is easier if you learn to say things like 'I won't touch that' and 'I can't do it that way, it has to be this way' and 'if you want that done you need to get someone else to do it'. Make your position the right one every time.
From what I've gathered here you have drummed up a fair amount of work since starting out. Money-wise, you did not need to help the guy with his electrical, and you shouldn't bury wiring like that, or let other people do it without at least a brief lecture about why not. Your job is to bring in your (licensed) electrician to handle the work properly.
so you blame the DW guy for screwing up your shortcut ?
Isn't there a thread running about taking responsibilty for your actions?Where was the HO/GC when the rock was going up, at work?The DW guy does something "right" and now there is a hole in the new ceiling
"
c what ya did.....................unleashed the monster again! lol
..........back in the cage! Argh, yeeha, back in there I tell ya, git!It's Never Too Late
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none...
Good Grief......not this one again!! Didn't this question run up 200, or so, posts a few months ago?? - lol
never
Paul...........when ya gonna delete this thread eh?
Liable to go on and on.................It's Never Too Late To Become
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You have sumpthin to say Eric? Sounds like a guilty conscience is eating away at you... you HAVE buried j boxes haven't you? I knew it... and you picked your feet in Poughkeepsie, right? I saw you... (hope you've seen the French Connection).
Now say five NECs and a Hail AHJ.
AaaaaaaaaarrrrrghghgghgIt's Never Too Late To Become
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