Recently was doing work on older home that was to be sold. Buyers hired a man in a van to inspect and give opinion of state of condition of home. Interesting that the name on the side of the van was Brickkickers. I’m in favor of the buyers getting what they paid for but from a better source Maybe a rep from each of the trades could spend 20 min on the house and give professional opinions. Shouldn’t be to hard to organize if the reps looked to the future bussiness that it would generate. Or maybe the seller could have this done and use it as a sales tool and feel more comfortable than a realator telling the buyer “its a great house ,sign here” ……….Any thoughts?
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That's the way to go!
For instance, on the one I just agreed to manage restoration of, I asked around to find the mechanics who had worked on it for the past ten years and questioned them for clues about what was good and what was bad about it. Avoided some budget suprises there.
The inspectors report said simply, heat - Boiler, hot water heat, serviceable.
The plumber said, " I've been holding that thing together with bubble gim and wire for the last five years, It spent a couple years under water while the basement flooded. I'd be suprised if it lasted thru' the winter."
And people wonder why we are rated above lawyers and auto mechanics for consumer complaints. Go figure!
piffin , piffin, piffin........If you made a comment as a talk radio host like you made here, the world would beat a path to your radio station. The real world and todays EXPERIENCE is what the pros, DIYers and general public that are buyers and sellers want to hear. Excellence is a reward that you give to others.
There go the sponsors.
:)Excellence is its own reward!
Brick Kickers.
Did you take this to mean that the person in the van was a mason. Or a masonry expert/inspector, only ??
I take the name to mean the same as Tire Kickers.
You don't buy a car without looking it over. Possibly even having a mechanic look it over. I take this sign as a tongue in cheek reference to the guy being the mechanic that you have look over your house.
Quittin' Time
H ey Luka ...This person came into the house and proceded to look at everything ,Plumbing, heating, etc.and made notations on a clip board. I know that you and I are pretty darn smart but I question my knowledge ,experience.and ability to be able to give an accurate evaluation to the buyer. After giving it some more thought I believe this would be a good job for retired trades inspectors to form a group to provide this service for a prospective buyer or seller. Thanks for the interest.
That is an excelent idea.
Unfortunately, no one is going to pay enough for an inspection, to be able to pay the wages of several different 'experts' doing the inspection.
This is a very good concept. But it is one that would take legislation to make it work. Just like we are forced to have insurance, we would have to be forced to pay for a group of inspectors who each know a lot about a little, instead of one inspector who knows a little about a lot....Cut me some slack here
Quittin' Time
Actually, it does happen here with more expensive houses. Often no fees involved because the subs know they will be the ones doing the work eventually and can bill it in later.Excellence is its own reward!
Very good. I hope it catches on.
: )Cut me some slack here
Quittin' Time
Nails,
Brickkickers is one of the franchise home inspection companies. There are several franchisor companies, but most HI's are soloists or mon/pop outfits. (Pretty stupid name, IMHO.)
from a better source Maybe a rep from each of the trades could spend 20 min on the house and give professional opinions.
So, we'll get a plumber, an electrican, a heating contractor, a roofer, an appliance repair person, a structural engineer, a framer, a mason, a window and siding guy, a concrete guy, etc.
If we're lucky, we won't get the plumber who thinks those funny 2" wide boards on edge under the floors are there to dull her sawzall blade on; or the electrician who thinks s/he can bore any ol' size hole any ol' place in them things, and we'll pay each of 'em, ah, what will cover their costs to get to, go through the house, and write a report?
Or, we can make one call and get a guy who (at least in theory) has some training in all of those systems AND how they work together (or don't work together) and pay him or her a fraction of what the seperate trades would charge, and who will write up a report on the whole thing. (FWIW, I rarely see a contractor who will give an opinion in writing, although some of them are real quick to offer oral opinions about how screwed up my opinion is. I carry a blank form where we can quickly fill in their opinion and which they can sign. They never do!)
Shouldn't be to hard to organize if the reps looked to the future bussiness that it would generate
Home inspectors who belong to the major trade organizations such as the American Society of Home Inspectors (ASHI) don't do repairs on home they've inspected, even if they still work as contractors. Avoids anyone questioning whether they called out a "problem" because they wanted/needed some work.
The good home inspectors hold themselves out as generalists: I tell all of my clients (every single one) "I'm like a family doctor; I'm a generalist. Sometimes I'll see something that I don't like or isn't done in accordance with the usual standards, and I'll refer you on to a specialist for further review."
There are contractors who strongly dislike HI's and see us as the enemy. Sometimes we are - when they do shoddy work.
Many contractors realize, however, that we increase their work opportunities by pointing out stuff that needs fixing that most people don't see or understand.
Heck, I tell 12 -15 people a week to get their furnaces serviced once a year and explain to 'em why and how important it is. I give them the names of 4 heating contractors who I believe do good work, and tell them why and explain that there might be others who have the same level of training and knowledge but those are the 4 I know of.
(FWIW, if any of them offered any kind of compensation or referral fee I'd take 'em off of my list - I'm working for my customers and my customers only.)
I probably tell 3-6 people a week to have an electrician come in to repair problems that I've found, and plumbers and roofers, etc, etc, from time to time.
There are cr@ppy home inspectors out there, of course, just as there are bozos in every trade. If you want to see some anti-HI tirades, just seach the site here.
Then check out http://www.ashi.org.
Sometimes my good ideas aren't . Thanks for your input.
In some ways this board is like a wife - good place to bounce bad idseas off of so we don't look silly in front of other people.Excellence is its own reward!
I've reinventred the wheel a few times myself {G}.
My latest idea is a definite improvement on the square wheel - the triangular wheel 'cause it eliminates 1 of the bumps!
Run it by Larry for a patent analysis! Maybe Boss Hog can handle the marketing with is spec house experience.Excellence is its own reward!
I'll never forget the city hvac contractor who inspected each job the same way...
"Your need a new furnace", pasted one of his company stickers on the return plenum, then proceeds to walk out the door.
"Your need a new furnace", pasted one of his company stickers on the return plenum, then proceeds to walk out the door.
Good marketing! Kind of like the glass guy in Brooklyn who used to ride around at night on the shotgun side breaking out car windows. Dunno if he left his card {G}
There are contractors who strongly dislike HI's and see us as the enemy. Sometimes we are - when they do shoddy work.
This is interesting (maybe tongue in cheek). It seems that you alone are the judge of shoddy work (a talent that is one step above doing shoddy work). HI's do not do shoddy work?
The good home inspectors hold themselves out as generalists: I tell all of my clients (every single one) "I'm like a family doctor; I'm a generalist. Sometimes I'll see something that I don't like or isn't done in accordance with the usual standards, and I'll refer you on to a specialist for further review."
If an inspector holds himself out as a generalist, he is a good one? This makes you a doctor? As a generalist, a doctor, as you suggest, with no formal education, not even a resume, your highness has the ability to judge usual standards, and pronounces himself the authority to refer specialists? What if you only ever inspected substandard work?
What does one in your position offer in terms of references when potential clients inquire about your experience? Do you tell them I inspected this, and that? And that your opinion was such and such?
I am surprised that a home inspector has developed a god complex. That might be the only trait you have in common with (some) doctors.
Please don't do me the courtesy of responding. I am not trying to bait you. Just read what you write once in a while.
Tom
Edited 9/12/2002 9:17:35 PM ET by Tommy B.
Please don't do me the courtesy of responding. I am not trying to bait you. Just read what you write once in a while.
Good point. I'll make you a deal. You try to read what I wrote, too.
For example, the doctor bit is a simile, and in my presentation I limit it to being a generalist like a family doctor. You might take offense or mis-understand, none of the doctors I have done inspection for have. (Simile: : a figure of speech comparing two unlike things that is often introduced by like or as.) Neither have the electricians, heating contractors, plumbers or other trades people I've done inspections for. They all got it. I've told that to over 1,800 customers. They all got it. I know of inspection company that has used that simile in something like 17,000 to 18,000 inspections. All of their customers got it.
It seems that you alone are the judge of shoddy work
I don't believe I ever said anything which suggests that it is my opinion or position that I am the only judge. Will you please point to the what I have said that leads you to draw that conclusion? Or is this another example of where you fling some baseless accusation and then can't back it up?
I am surprised that a home inspector has developed a god complex. That might be the only trait you have in common with (some) doctors.
God complexes are relative.
If an inspector holds himself out as a generalist, he is a good one? This makes you a doctor? As a generalist, a doctor, as you suggest, with no formal education, not even a resume, your highness has the ability to judge usual standards, and pronounces himself the authority to refer specialists?
And where do you get the impression I have no formal education? When one makes absolutely baseless claims, one displays one's azz. Not unprecedented, I might add.
What if you only ever inspected substandard work?
Good question. I never figured you for a philosopher.
By the way, in the other thread you explained to the world how no one in their right mind would want to do anything other than what you do. Shortly after that thread (22482.42 and related messages) petered out I did an inspection where I found a water heater which was discharging large amouts of carbon monoxide into the house. I ws not only able to save my clients (including their 6 month old infant - infants are far more vulnerable to CO poisoning) from the adverse effects of that dangerous situation, but I was able to explain to the occupants why they were waking up with headaches every day and I was able to refer them to competent medical help.
I felt especially good about what I do that day. When is the last time you had some definitive, specific positive effect on people's lives and health? When is the last time you had someone thank you for saving his or her parent's lives? My doctor did a couple of years ago because I gave her information about CO that helped her properly diagnose her parents CO poisoning. (Nothing fancy, I just reminded her during my physical that CO poisoning is common and when patients present with flue symptoms it should be considered as one possibility. I'm not comparing what I did as anything at the level of what doctors do or the skills or knowledge they have obtained. I am pointing out that what I do has value, a concept you seem unable to comprehend.)
Two days ago I was able to show a young couple all of the major problems that were in the house they were under contract to buy; saved 'em from making a major mistake. That particular home had been the victim of several years worth of incredibly amateurish workmanship, and then been bought by a contractor who had tried to cover up the cr@p for a few thousand dollars and sell it for twice what he paid. That felt pretty good too. I understand he's pretty pissed. OTOH, both fathers (who were there at the beginning of the inspection) called me to thank me. Oh, yes, the husband was a mechanical engineer.
As often as I point out problems, I point out the well done things in the houses I inspect: my job is to evaluate the house: I look for the good and the bad; I leave the ugly for the interior decorators.
Edited 9/12/2002 10:18:38 PM ET by Bob Walker
Edited 9/13/2002 9:06:53 AM ET by Bob Walker
Tom, it sounds like you hit on some bad guy. Sorry, it's really too bad.
I consider myself quite fluent in just about everything around a house. That I don't know, I know who to call and when.
But I would never, ever consider making a several hundred thousand dollar investment without input from a disinterested third party compentent in the area. Even if I knew everything about it.
You never know if you missed something until its too late. And damn, I've done that too many times.
You never know if something will end up having to be interpreted by someone else. A judge, lawyer, police, or most likely and worst of all, your wife. When you've got the details in writing up front, you look less of a fool later. And believe me, it'll happen.
And it could more than pay for itself in the final negotiations.
Again, sorry for your experience, but someone has to do it. Better an ASHI certified one than a former janitor.
Tom, it sounds like you hit on some bad guy.
It could be that. Read the messages from Tom in the thread I mentioned in my post (such as msg 22482.49) and you'll begin to consider the possibility that he has had bad experiences with a number of inspectors, and maybe they were all wrong and Tom was always right.
Maybe not.
Bob,
I got a question for you.
Do HI's get into grading issues beyond the simple slope 3 ft away from the house?
I'm looking at a place (new build spec) with the step son where the guy did an odd excavation in the back yard that I believe could flood the basement in a 100 year rain or significant snowmelt. There's no municipal building requirements calling for grading permits or inspections. There's no storm drains anywhere in the area.
Other than that, the place is nice and he's showing a willingness to work with us.
HI's would cover something like that if they are following the ASHI Standards of Practice: http://www.ashi.com/customers/standards.htm See Section 4.1.A.5.
Without seeing it, of course, it can't be said whether an HI will be able to give you an opinion or would refer you on to a specialist. It could very well depend on whether the inspector had seen something like before (and if the inspector is at least 100 years old {G})
Thanks a million. That link is now one of my bookmarks!
Tommy,
Were you abused by a home inspector as a child?Jon Blakemore
No.
I just call them like I see them.
Make your point, see what the others think, voila, internet.
I like home inspectors. My debate is inspection vs. experience, if I have one at all.
I think I could inspect nuclear power plants given the appropriate set of inspection criteria and checklist. Would that make me and expert? I don't have the time or inclination to post links, but one of bob's own sites disqualifies 95% of home inspectors.
I just don't like the "I inspect, therefor I am" attitude.
Yes it's a philosophical debate.
I like bob, would love to meet him.
No hard feelings whatsoever.Tom
but one of bob's own sites disqualifies 95% of home inspectors.
We already discussed that one - that site is maintained by an inspector who has very strong feelings about home inspectors marketing through real estate agents, and he, in his sole opinion, "disqualifies" 95% of HI's because they do market through RE agents.
His "disqualification" has nothing to do with knowledge or ability.
Yes, there are a number of poor home inspectors or wanna be HI's. In most states all you need is a flashlight and a business card, and every year there are a lot of poor shmoes who think: $250 x 3 x 5 x48. "Wow, I can retire in a few years!"
That's why I personally support licensing of HI's. And encourage homebuyers to look at qualifications
There are also a lot of unqualified contrators and sub-contractors, too.
I think I could inspect nuclear power plants given the appropriate set of inspection criteria and checklist.
Unfortunately, there are people who think they can do the same with home inspections. They can't, and you can't.
Bob,
This is a serious question.
In your opinion, what level of training and experience should one have to become a qualified inspector? I've read all sorts of reports from various HIs and am naturally suspicious of a market segment with people who can go to a two week school and become "certified"
There are too many instant HIs - just add water!Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
Gotta ask the easy one during the Buckeye game. right?
My own personal view is that they should have a post graduate degree; that'd leave me a few engineers {G}
That question has been hotly debated in HI circles as various states have looked at and passed licensing laws.
& It's a very tough question - I know some inspectors who do very good work with little formal education and with experience in things like maintenance, others whose experience is in remodeling (I think that is one of the better training grounds - of course, that's what I did pre-& post legal meanderings.) I personally think curiosity is an important qualification, but I dson't know how you measure that one!
Experience doing inspections is also important, ideally I think an inspector should do, say, 50-100 inspections under an experienced inspector before going off alone but the economics of the industry mitigate against that.
I also think ability to communicate clearly is very important and one of the most overlooked skill in the HI biz. And, people skills: home inspections get get pretty tense, if for no other reason than a nervous buyer. If you can't effectively tell the buyer what you're seeing and the implications, the process isn't worth as much as it could be.
Re inspection experience: one of the things I found changing as I gained experience was the way I look at things: when I was starting, I'd have to look at each detail and think about whether it was "right."
Now, although I still look at each detail, some stuff just grabs you before you even think about it. For example, the beam in the living room over the front door in the attached pic.
I'd already spotted lots of stupid and amateurish work on this particular house, so I was a bit on guard, but the apparent beam terminating above the front door got my attention before any conscious "analysis" and I wasn't the least bit surprised when the front door was jammed shut.
Thanks for the outline, Bob. As my back gets too far gone for real work, I've thought about adding it to my resume'. Don't know if I've got all the tact required. I am a detective tho'.
The point about working under an experienced one for 50-100 times is worthy.
I generally see things that HIs have left out, whether by oversight, inefficiency, lack of training, or other rreasons, I never know. But then there is usually something in the reports that I had failed to notice too. I'd bet that every pair of two inspectors will find several different things to note, each leaving out something important, based on my reading of reports and comparison to what I see.
eg. This most recent one reported that the hot water was supplied by the boiler. It was clearly and obviously an electric hot water heater. It did sit near the boiler tho'
BTW,
That photo reminds my of a house I re-built that had not been finished inside yet when they bought it. HI report simply said that the structure was substandard and that a framing contractor should be contacted to remedy. I suppose he was saving ink and paper because it would've taken three pages to record everything wrong.
Anyway, the dining room area had some beams in under the upper floor joists. They had A-35s making a sound connection. problem was that the hardware was holding the beam up instead of the beam supporting the joists. HA! One end landed in the center wall over a doorway. Bearing wall with the header over door made of 2-2x4 laid flat. Jack stud landed on plywood instead of on sole plate. This happened to be halfway between lower floor joists so that subfloor had a 3/4" sag in it. All this before any load from sheet rock or furniture. That's just one of about twenty things wrong with that place.
We tore it down to the top plate and re-built half the bottom floor too.Excellence is its own reward!
It's pretty easy to miss some things, and keeping focus can be tough. Misidentifying an electric water heater is a bit off the mark, but maybe it was a memory problem - many HI's will do a section of house and then stop and make their notes or fill out their forms, and everynow and again senior moments can occur!
I tell my clients that I will not spot every problem in the house; that I've been in mine 5 years and I still find things, and that the focus of the inspection will be looking for major problems.
Also, when finding some major stuff wrong, most inspectors will refer you onto a specialist in that area, for several reasons.
First, we simply don't have time to do a ful breakout; most inspectors schedule 2 -3 a day, and if you run into something bigtime, you'd blow your scedule.
Second, there are often several ways to skin a cat; if we tell you one way, a contractor might tell you another and create some tension; and of course, when a specilaist can concentrate on one issue or set of issues, they can give better info then we can develop as part of our survey.
Third, if you start trying to spot and analyze every problem where you've seen enogh to know a specialist should be reviewing it, you're laying yourself open to claims that although you spotted these 14 problems, you should have spotted the 15th.
Some inspectors shy away from giving any repair advice: undersized service drop with melted insulation: call an electrician. Cracked receptacle plate, call an electrician.
Personally, I don't agree with that approach, and try to give my client some basis for evaluating the significance of any given problem when I have a basis for that sort of opinion.
BTW, I'd been clued to possible structural problems by this "header" in the garage:
You mean that the weather stripping won't hold that up as well as a jack stud? LOL
Excellence is its own reward!
Bob,
Sorry you posted a while back that you lost respect for me for some of the things I said about "engineers/ home inspectors" MAybe I was off a bit due to experiancing a whole lot of those guys. IMHO Both stink equally and I have a serious amount of experiance with my wife selling hundreds of millons of dolrs in real estate a year and me working in renovations in one of the hottest markets in the world.....Experiance: My wife schlepped Billy Joel around last year for two weeks. He got her name as a top educated broker on the north shore here. Me: Do work for the Historic Society and have been doing reno work for almost 30 years in my own biz. MOST H.I blow a bone according to me and my wife. I DO have to say YOU SEEM to be a cut above a the rest...you actually seem to be appreciative of FINE HOME BUILDING but you are one of few from what I've seen and I've seen more then most. I'd love to consult you and have you in my neck of the woods cause you really seem to be on the ball and incrdably caring and observant.....not sure how many other HI you know or witnessed but I'm bettin' I saw and see a whole lot more then you and in my observation...all they do is kill deals with short sighted (maybe smart for them) ill knowledgeable remarks. Personally I think these guys should be in the field for a good ten twenty years before theycan kill or make deals for future home buyers. Its a pretty god damn important position......then again Gdubya became president
Be well (wish more HI were like you bro)
Namaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM