cabinet guys,which way grain go?
well i built my own cabs and had a local woodworking shop build the doors and drawer faces. they are 1/4 sawn oak ,done in a mission style/shaker. basicily square rail and stile with a solid glued up 1/4 sawn panel in the center. on the drawer fronts he built them the same way with rails and stiles w solid wood in the middle. he run the grain straight up and down on the solid panel. i’ve never seen this done before and don’t paticular care for it, but i can’t bring myself to bitch about it as i can’t imagine how much work it took to edge glue up a 36″ wide panel and insert it into the drawer front under the sink, versus throwing a 6 ” wide board sideways and going on. is this something that is done on mission stlye cabinets or did this guy screw up? do you think it will look alright or should i just build some solid 1/4 sawn oak drawer fronts and run the grain length wise?thanks larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Replies
the panels should run the same way in both the drawer and door. I can't say that I've seen any panels run horizontal. But then again, it's one of those things that you don't really "see", know what I mean. If it bothers you , change it. But I don't think the cab shop screwed up.
edit: Just to show you how blind dumb and stupid I can be. The last kitchen I installed, sort of shaker style. Here's the drawer/door............just like you said vert/door, horiz/recessed drawer front panel........
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Edited 12/8/2004 11:37 pm ET by calvin
I agree with Cal that they grain orientation should match.
The maker could glue a blank long enough for both panels, then crosscut. This would look sharp IMHO, and be much easier than a 36x6 glue up.
Jon Blakemore
What Jon and Cal said.
If is a raced panel I will run the drawer panels with the grain horizontal.
You don't want to see the edge grain on the top of the panel.
But in your case (flat panel) is better to run the grain vertical.
YCF
Larry, when using a traditional style of cabinets, run the grain of the drawer fronts horizontal (just look at some period examples). Vertical grain on drawer fronts usually only looks good when used on slab style doors/drawers in a modern style.
Kem
when using a traditional style of cabinets, run the grain of the drawer fronts horizontal
These are not traditional style, I think he said that the drawer fronts were stick and cope drawer fronts. There is a panel in the drawer front. You know, just like the doors.
When we make drawer fronts like doors I think we put the panels in vertical. I guess you could do it the other way but it might look funny.
Your not used to seeing a panel in a door run horizontal.
Doug
Doug, Larry said the cabs were in a mission/shaker style, which are both historic, period styles. Typically drawer fronts in these styles were one piece solid wood with horz grain. Using horz grain in a five piece front gets you closer to the original look. Kem
Kem
I agree that it gets you closer but my point was that if it were traditional that he would not have chosen a 5 piece drawer front.
I looked on several of the sites that manufacture door and drawers, I seen them both ways.
In our shop right now there is a couple projects going, we are using 5 piece drawer fronts on a few of them. Grain going vertical. Not that our way is anymore correct than the next.
The term "Shaker" is used so generically anymore that it can mean about anything. I doubt that anybody is building a true shaker style cabinet. I don't even think that any of the kitchen manufacturers know what real shaker is.
Doug
Speaking of five piece drawer fronts. ARe teh rails and stiles teh same width as in the doors? If so, does this not make the panel in the draw look ridiculously small (narrow)?
I believe it's correct to run the grain of the doors vertical and that of the drawers horizontal. Here's why. What's the reason for frame and panel construction? To accomodate seasonal wood movement. Part of accomodating wood movement is minimizing it. To best minimize seasonal wood movement, you would want the grain running parallel to the longest dimension of the panel. That orientation results in the least amount of cross grain to shrink and swell.
Andy
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
I believe it's correct to run the grain of the doors vertical and that of the drawers horizontal
It is correct to do that, but it is also correct to do it the other way.
There is no right or wrong. I've done it both ways and I've seen it done both ways. Most of the kitchen cab web sites have it both ways.
People want to talk tradition. There isn't a lot of traditional drawer fronts that are 5 piece.
I just finished re-reading an old FWW mag(1990), the furniture that this particular guy was making had grain running vertical on a table stretchers, it was laminated on to ply.
You build cope and stick door or drawers to accommodate wood movement. I haven't seen a 5 piece drawer front with grain running vertical break, I'm sure it happens, but I guess that's why one should know what they are doing before building them, just like any thing else.
Doug
I almost agree with you. However, my own prejudice is that if you're using a traditional style, you shouldn't muck around with it. Updates to traditional styles are almost always eyesores. If you're working in a contemporary style, drop the frame and panel look and run the grain diagonally, if that's what raises your flag.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
raise the flag?diagonal is not standard?ut oh..got some PO'ed customers calling...
where did I put that board stretcher?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
But Andy you gave up traditional when you opted for the 5 piece drawer front!
Where have you ever seen 5 piece drawer fronts on traditional cabs.
I built an entertainment center 1 1/2 years ago here in Austin, TX.
The main cabinet is 53" wide. Above it there is a raised panel, also 53" wide. This cabinet is hard maple, the design called for the panel to have vertical grain.
I built the panel, which is essentially a door, because I made it with the same style and rails that the doors have, it is 53" X 17".
It has a floating panel in it that would be in the neighborhood of 49" X 13". Vertical grain, it has gone through the entire whether cycle and it has held up fine.
If you know what your doing I don't see the prob.
Again, you cant talk about tradition when you dropped tradition with the design.
Doug
Man, do you have any pics of vertical panels? I can kinda picture it in a tall drawer, and maybe looking cool, but only kinda. Gotta agree, go outside tradition, yer in funland<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
I cant find any right now but I'm sure I can come up with some.
Doug
BB
This is a vanity that we did, not the best picture and not the best example. The picture is to dark to really see how well the grain really looks. The panels are solid walnut.
The vanity is walnut and the panels are vertical.
We are doing a kitchen out of alder right now, it has 5 piece drawer fronts. I'm almost sure that the grain is running vertical. I'll have to look monday. Work on the damn thing for 2 months and ya cant even remember which way the grain runs. :(
Unless the doors are unusual I don't build many door and drawer fronts, we got somebody that loves to do it so its his job!
Do any of you use Space Balls on style and rail doors, so the insert can expand and contract but not spread the joints?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Yes. Also helps so that the panel does not rattle.
They work great unless you drop the container of those damn things.
You ever see 1000 tiny super balls bouncing around!
Doug
You raise a good point about the 5 piece drawer front. However, I still don't like the look of a panel with the long grain running the short dimension of the frame.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
well here is a new twist,i'm at home expo yesterday [you know the high dollar home depot] and decide i'd take a look ta 25 k cabinets and see how they do theres. they have one manf. that in a drawer bank of 4 drawers [going up and down] the lower 3 drawers the grain runs vertical, then the top drawer runs horizonal. these were a mission type cab. i thought it looked like the guy didn't know which way he wanted to commint to the grain. i'd be upset if they del. me a set of cabs that look like these did. other than that horizonal grain on the drawer fronts won out by about 3 to 1 .larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
my door guy used 2 1/4 side stiles,with 1 1/4 horizonal rails, so that ther would be some center showing,most of my drawers are around 8" tall,some 10". i understand the reason for doing this is to keep the sides the same width as the doors under them and expose more center panel. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Thanks for the link, I could swear I went to the Eagle America site when I started looking for the bits. The 15 degree Shaker is pretty much what I was looking for. It must have been introduced in the past year or so, because I went to their booth at the Woodworker's Show here in Feb and they didn't have it. I know the square edge is more traditional but I though that if something falls and hits the door front and the edge, it wouldn't be so bad if it was hitting more af a surface than a corner. Not that I want to be dinging them, but hey, it happens.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
thanks everone for the replys, it's clear as mud now which way they go! lol anyway i have put them on and they look good, just not what i usally have made[always been horz. grain before]. i really am in aw of how much time this guy took to build these with the grain vert. instead of going the easy route. i am a little concerned now about expansion and contraction on the panel below the sink, 36" wide and the sidewise movement might be more than the panel can take. thanks larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
In your original post you asked why didn't he just put make a solid 6" high drawer face instead of panel, and also horz. vs. vert. panel. The first part of the question I think is important. In a taller drawer I can see the vert. panel really working. To me the break point between solid and 5-piece drawer fronts is at 6". Depending on the application 6" could look better solid or panel, but with such a narrow panel vert. just isn't working for me visually.
I thought I had the 15°, but maybe it's the 20°...had it for years. Anyway, the bevel does make for a nice look...but you're using your kitchen a lot differently than folks I make cabinets for, if your bouncin' stuff off the doors and drawers..."full contact cooking" LOL Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Oh yeah, I'm cookin' in the kitchen! And on the floor, on the dining room table,...Yikes!Not that I'm flinging things around, but I just hate dings in nice, crisp edges and I think it would be less of a problem with the angle on it.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
View ImageAnd here we have Conestoga Wood Products weighing in, with their view of the situation. As you can see, the drawerrfront panel is run with grain horizontal.
Conestoga makes a very large portion of the doors and doorfronts used by the big brand name cabinet companies.
All of their paneled drawerfronts are shown this way. You are likely to see door panels with grain horizontal when going into a kitchen showroom or a home center showroom.
There may be a reason, however, and it is because Conestoga makes most all their panels from solid wood. Drawerfront panels in solid wood would likely come from full boards, and not require edge gluing, thus less labor and glue.
Typically, door panels are run verticle and drawer fronts are horizontal.
Check out WalzCraft cabinet doors.
http://64.176.184.142/cfactory/gallery.cgi?subroutine=displayYou get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
used by the big brand name cabinet companies
LoL! There's a reason to use a local shop if ever I heard one <g>
Conestoga is using 1/4" plywood for that panel, too--so they have no real reason to turn the grain, other than to match their raised panel drawer fronts.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
The Conestoga doors I used on a project had solid wood panels, not plywood. Mission style, plain stiles and rails, reverse G cut on the panels.
had solid wood panels
Oh, ok--I knew they had a reversed panel for "shaker" doors. I just hadn't seen any actually used. Which may be more a factor of cheap dealers selling to cheaper customers (even those paying extra for a national brand name).
I've got some grain and color match reflexes others don't as my paycheck used to depend on guys out in the shop "beating" the quality on the sales brochures. Makes a person a tad picky--sometimes unecessarily so. Mea culpa.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Typically, the drawer panel's grain runs horizontal, perhaps because it is less expensive to build that way. However, it always bothers me. You've got grain running vertically on the doors. My eye says the grain should run the same direction on the drawers. I think your cabinet guy went the extra mile to give you better-looking cabinets.
is this something that is done
Shops seem to have "habits," and like habits are hard to change. I'm used to door panel vertical, drawer or fake horizontal. We used to have problems with the sales guys wanting a door-sized drawer front and not remembering that there's a grain change when they ordser a drawer front versus a door. (We'd change it for the shop drawings, but theire work/change orders didn't go "through" the same channel).
We also used a full height stile for all stiles, even middle ones. This can llok odd if you are used to a full height end stiles, with rail-to-rail mullions in between. I never liked the endgrain showing on a midstile on a wall cabinet--it never finishes quite right. But, that's not that much different than the joint between two endstiles, so that's just a personal preference.
WOW! To me it sounds like your man did a fantastic custom job for you! Does it really make any sense for the grain on the door to run verticle and for the drawers to run horizontal? I believe you are correct that that is the way it is typically done, in otherwords . . . cheap and dirty. But to have the grain line up? Now that is class. IMHO.
When I'm building cabinets with frame and panel drawers and doors, I run the door panels vertically and the drawer panels horizontally. But now that you mention it, some wood's grains might look pretty sharp running vertically, but, then again, that might look a little funny in narrow panels. Solid wood drawer fronts, horizontally...
Frameless doors and drawers out of sheetgoods, both the panels run vertically, and, seem to look best cut out of the same sheet...and we always run the grain "cathedrals" pointing up<G>
It seems that whether the grain on the drawers is horizontal or vertical depends on the manufacturer but the expansion/contraction makes sense, along with the consideration that there may be less waste if it goes horizontal. I went to two different places today to look at doors and drawers specifically for this issue since I'm still trying to decide on my doors and drawers. Originally, I wanted to go with a Shaker style door and maybe the same for the drawers. I want to make them myself as I did the cabinets. I can't find any router bits for the profile I want, which is T&G with the edge next to the field being bevelled. Premade doors have it but I checked with virtually all of the router bit and shaper cutter manufacturers. Nothing. The majority of the drawers I have seen (price points being from low to high) had the grain horizontal on the drawers and vertical on the doors. I did see one today with the drawer insert vertical and because of the grain, I thought it looked pretty bad. It was hickory and it just didn't work. OTOH, I'm not too geeked with rotary sliced veneers on doors, either, and that's the only way to get a continuous sheet. I prefer well matched grain when boards are glued up and even on veneer. Unfortunately, it really expensive to do it that way.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Check out this site: http://www.eagle-america.com/html/catalog/productGroup.asp/87781Don't know if that's exactly the bevel you're looking for...most Shaker stuff was square edged... Don't worry, we can fix that later!
I think it depends on several things.
Are you putting the floor in before the cabinets or after?
Are you hanging the uppers first or installing the bases first?
Is there blocking, strapping, bridging, or nothing on the joists below this kitchen?
Do you drive a truck or a van, and what make is it?
Are the electric receptacles in the house installed ground up or down?
Fiberglass or cells insulation?
Cold roof?
Using a worm drive saw on the job or a sidewinder?
These are but a few of the questions which must first be answered before deciding which is the proper way for the drawer panel grain to run?
Oh yeah, were the studs laid out on the black diamonds?
lets see if i can address your concens,i set all my joists on the little diamonds,except every 5 th one i set on 8' centers.i then installed my upper cabs first with those special piffin screws everyone here raves about. i had to spec order the from piffin.com.then tried to dense pac cells, didn't work so i installed the bottom cabs. worked better but kept blowing out in the 18" space between cabs.so i decide it would work best to drywall that area with cement board, tried scoring it and breaking but couldn't get a clean break. went out to the VAN and got a 4.5 grinder [whats a sidewinder,didn't roadrunner have one of them trying to catch bugs bunny] it threw dust everywhere ,will probably die in the next 3 days due to all the dust i inhaled.i'm going to leave the recepticale's hang out of the wall for a few years while i research which way is correct according to the nbc,or nec [whatever] [my wife now thinks thats how they are suppose to be],and yes i have a cold roof, no insulation , just dead air space,isn't that suppose to be the best? thats all insulated windows are, by the way did you read here on breaktime that they are going to make double pane windows illegal?! thanks for you questions if you have any ideas on how to make this project go better please let me know. thanks larry oh i forgot, the floor is already in,advantech painted gray, i mean how else would i set the cabinets with just piffin screws?
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Edited 12/10/2004 12:23 am ET by always overbudget
Sounds like you got a pretty good handle on what's going on here
Not really any advice I can add to that
Are the electric receptacles in the house installed ground up or down?
Up or down? Pah, a trifle. Left or Right, now there's The Question (not just for duplex receptacles either, but horizontal switches <insert diabolical, maniacal, laughter>).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Shoe,
You beat me to it!!!
This is another in the long line of Hotly debated, never answered questions that will plaque carpenterkind for eternity!
legions of homebuilders and remodelers will have toiled and died in pursuit of such answers.
But alas, none will be found.....
tis the sad and lonely life of a carp.
at the bottom of the food chain but wrestling with the questions that shape our reality.
It is a thankless job but the masses must be housed.
I just toil oil on hopeing that when my day comes the Carpentry gods with look upon me with favor and let me pass to the promised land.
where the days are sunny, the wood abundant and there are no yellow or orange tools.
where the blades stay razor sharp( without 10,000$ of gadgets) and the customers always want it done the right way and are willing to pay for it.
where contractors are banished to the fires of Mordor to slave for eternity building larger and plianer homes at a meager compensation
where the grain is straight(unless you want it figured) walls are plumb and floors never squeak.
where everyone has a van or trailer full of tools, and the milkbones are made from steak, and lunch time is always an hour long.
toil on soulbrother
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
Toil on I will...........but...........inquiring minds want to know........
Which direction is YOUR grain preference
Wellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.................
UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH........................
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....................
errrrrrrrrrrrrrr.................
How 'bout them REDSOX????!!!!!
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
i have to say that it is an uncommon detail, but the proof is in the pudding that oozes out of the eye of the beholder.
do YOU like the way it looks? however, if your crpntr didn't leave enough expansion space for the panel to the left and to the right - there could be a problem
however, if your crpntr didn't leave enough expansion space for the panel to the left and to the right - there could be a problem
Isnt that true if the grain is running horizontal?
The wood is going to expand/contract no matter which way you run the grain. If you know what you are doing you accomidate for wood movement.
Doug
I do like that...you seem to get a lot of nice projects...I always like seeing pics of 'em. Thanks Don't worry, we can fix that later!
One of the reasons I keep coming back to BT, I always learn sumpin' new<G>
cant understand why everybody thinks that its inappropriate
The only thing I can think of, is that solid lumber drawer fronts are traditionally run horizontally. Which makes sense, the borads are "shaped" in the "right" direction already. That skips a glue up, which is a fairly modern (as in the last hundred or so years) invention made possible with modern glues.
So, a 5-peice, paneled drawer front would be "natural" to follow that pattern. Not always sensible, but logical.