Cabinets, Biscuits, Faceframe alignment?
xMike
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
In pictures and articles, woodworkers are shown lifting completed face frames over 60″ long cases (with two dividers and a drawer line), with a caption that blandly reads “Biscuits assure perfect alignment of face frame and case – careful measurement is essential”. No where is there mention of just how that last is accomplished.
I can think of several ways to screw that up. Because, while there’s “lots” of room for slop lengthwise along the long axis of the biscuits, there’s precious little side-to-side, sooooo . . .
How does the owner of a new PC biscuit joiner, a complex case, and a face frame align case, biscuits, and frame so that they do, in fact, align, perfectly?
Once again, inquiring minds want to know.
Mike D
Replies
Just saw this on New Yankee Workshop last week.
Cut a continuous biscuit line in the carcass face. Then slot the back of the face frame. Doesn't much matter where you slot the face frame - the continuous biscuit line in the carcass will take the biscuits.
edit: I suppose that doesn't help you much with the 'side to side' question.
Edited 2/10/2008 6:38 pm ET by Zadrunas
Yeah, thats misleading.
I do NOT measure, I just dry fit the parts and make marks at the joints..just a pencil line across both parts. Slot away and glue it up.
Thats the beauty of biscuits, ya just make yer ticks and have at it.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
What needs to be measured (and cut exactly is the pieces for the face frame.
It is the alignment of the edge fo the FF to the cabinet that need to be right.
Then, if you use the same edge as the reference when cutting the biscuits they will line up. but if the FF is 1/4 longer than the cabinet you will have "problems".
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I believe the biscuit cutter fence would handle the alignment. You'd be using the fence off the front face of both cabinets. That should handle the alignment to ensure the cabinet fronts are flush. Of course, you'd have to have the doors and hinges off to allow this to happen.
Norm's continuous slot does solve the "easy" alignment along the length of a case side or top. However, it does not address the side to side fit.
If my face frame stiles and rails were the same width as the 3/4" case sides, tops, and bottoms, then I would have no problem finding common reference for all. I'd start at one side of the case and frame for a reference, and continue across case, cutting from the same side.
or, if I were able to make a face frame where the stile and rail centers and case-side centers aligned perfectly, I could measure and cut and only screw up one in five slots.
However, the rails and stiles are all various widths wider than the 3/4" case sides and dividers. Thus, it's the imperfect overhang that's the killer for finding a common reference for the biscuit joiner machine on the stiles and rails.
It seems to me like one way to do this would be....1) make up the face frame parts to fit the case but not assemble the frame (and make the loose parts 1/4" longer than they need to be)2) mark and cut the biscuit slots on the case3) mark, biscuit cut, and dry fit the side stiles to those biscuit cuts with dry biscuits4) mark, cut to length, and then biscuit cut and dry fit the top and bottom rails with dry biscuits - cut the side stiles to final length5) mark and cut the center stile and drawer rails to length and mark and biscuit cut the biscuit slots and dry fit with dry biscuits6) mark where the top and bottom rail where the center stile intersects7) mark the side and center stiles where the drawer rails intersect8) disassemble the dry face frame and pocket screw it together where marked9) dry fit the assembled face frame & biscuits to the case to be sure you didn't screw something up10) glue and clamp the face frame to the case.
Is that too complicated to bear, or what?!! There HAS to be a simpler way to do this.
Mike D
I have been think the same thing. The face frame MUST fit PERFECTLY! If it overhangs a little bit you have a problem getting the biscuits in. If teh frame is a little too small you have a problem with the biscuits fitting and you have the plywood sides proud of the face frame with no way to fix it.
To get the same alignment with your slots, cut them all from the same side of the box--outside-- and where you have overhang, use a shim. IE the box will be 1/4 'deeper' than the FF so use a 1/4 shim against outside of the box.
"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing..."
The biscuit table has a center mark that is very easy to align with a mark on the work. In a factory, they would have a different style biscuit machine, probably one that is pneumatically driven with stops for repetition. If you simply take the vertical or horizontal members of your face frame and mark them the same, you won't have any trouble putting the slots right where you want them. You can also set the depth of the biscuit slot a touch deeper which will allow a little bit of play. It's easy enough to line up your marks on assembly. You could screw some 1x2 strips to a piece of plywood to act as a large square and add in other pieces to position your face frame parts, if needed.
One thing with biscuit joiners is that they don't always cut in straight when hand held. It's easy to tip it slightly. Some will clamp the work, face down, on the bench and use the bench to reference the joiner on. With the PC, there are two fence positions, one position may work better than the other for FF biscuits, when hand held. The fence also has a weak spot where the casting is notched out very thin. Don't drop it! Biscuits have a little slop in the slot, they don't fit tight enough to act as perfect alignment. You may have to tap or clamp some joints flat ways to get the surface flush.
With most woodworking operations that use numerous repetitive parts, a fence with a stop is used on saws, so every piece is identical. It's also a big help if you mill your own rough lumber. That way you can flatten, straighten and plane all the parts to the same thickness. Pre-dressed lumber isn't always as perfect. If you can cut all your pieces correctly, square on the ends, and to the exact lengths, the job goes easy. If you are marking each piece and eyeballing it in, little differences can add up and cause trouble.
Some, Norm, will just nail the faceframe on the cabinet. Many others will rabbet/groove the frame on and only use glue. When trying to place an assembled frame on to a rabbet, you need to allow some wiggle room on the fit. I only do one kitchen at a time. I rabbet on and assemble the frame on the cabinet piece by piece, not as a separate, all constructed frame. That way I can have a tight fit on the rabbet. I'll often use a spacer stick when I have a run of drawers or other multiple frame members to keep in line. Biscuits are my choice when doing faceframes. they are simple, fairly quick and strong in that application. Run a few test pieces, it's not very difficult.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Thanks.
I will use test pieces for sure until I know what I'm doing, and can repeat it.
Mike D
I didn't realize that you were talking about biscuiting the frame to the cabinet. I thought you just meant where the faceframe members met each other. I'd do any other method than attaching it to the cabinet with biscuits, even nail it on!! There are some things biscuits are great for, mostly as a replacement for stub tenons where the stress will be minimal. They do next to nothing when edge gluing boards or fastening a frame. Glue and clamps will do just as well. Ease the pain, Mike!Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Don't make it too complicated!
Whip up your face frame and clamp or pin it exactly where you want it on the cabinet. Use a pencil to draw around the back side of the face frame, then mark from case to FF where you want the biscuits. See where I'm going here?
You now have an exact mark where the side of the ply hits the FF and a common refference line to align the tool's fence with. Keep it simple and don't flip down the alignment fence for the ply and try to fold it up for the FF, just keep the fence up out of the way so it's more consistant (fool proof) to line up.
With oak I struggle to keep on the line during a cut when butting the face of the tool into the wood so if it's critical, as when building furniture or some cabinets, I may clamp on a ply rip to have something to index next to and help hold everything tight. A sharper blade would help as well.
Best of luck.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Yes! Simpler is way better.
I can usually think of a way to do something I havn't done before, but my gosh I can come up with some complex solutions!
I like your's and Mike's suggestions. I'll give these a try.
Thanks,
Mike D
And yet another spin. Where I get my 4/4 its skipped at 15/16 and pretty clean by then. I assemble the faces, plow a 1/4" shallow dado in them where the sides have to hit, and kreg from the outside faces. With typical cabinets, you dont see the screws because they're all on outsides, and you skin the end. The only place you need to worrying about stopping the dado is on an end cabinet (so your bottom dado doesn't run through and show) and if you keep the dado shallow - its just there for alignment and a little stability - you've still got 3/4" stock for the screws to hit.Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
I usually make the FF 1/4" larger in all dimensions so you have room to adjust it. Just lay the frame on the carcase, clamp, mark the frame and carcase for biscuits. Also, run your pencil around the carcase to mark the frame position. While it's clamped, rip a spacer the thickness of your overhang, and tape it on the jointers fence. In my case it's the old PC 510. Adjust the fence to center on the ply carcase and cut the slots. Shouldn't need more than two on each side for alignment. Remove the FF, remove the spacer, and slot the frame with the fence on the OUTSIDE of the frame. When you glue up, don't put any glue on the biscuits so the don't swell and make adjustment difficult. After it's dry, use a lam trimmer with a good bearing piloted FT bit and "climb-cut" the excess away. If it's stain grade, run a piece of blue tape under the bearing to keep any markings off. Sand the little ear left flush.
On cabs that abut one another, leave the 1/8" "ear" to plane for a tight fit.
Thanks, Tom, that's a great reply.
Mike D
Forgot to add, do a test from a drop from the FF. Even if you FU you can still put the slots elsewhere.