I’m looking for online info on building materials weight… 1/2″ cdx, 5/8″ gypsum board, galv steel siding, etc, ….. haven’t had much luck. My son and I are building a wall of a studio that is going up flush against a fence … three inches clearance after it’s up. This is creating a host of problems that we are solving one at a time .. but soon we’ve got to settle on the final approach and raise the wall. Once raised it will NOT be accessable on the outside face — so every solution has to be carefully thought out and double-checked. This is the bottom floor of a 38 ft structure so no going back once it’s up.
The portion of the wall we are about to raise up will be:
= 15′ long by 10′ high — built of 2X8’s 24″ oc. with cross bracing at the sheething seams.
= sheethed in 1/2 cdx plywood AND sheethed over that with 5/8″ gwb (local fire-block requirement)
= on top of this goes felt and 29 gauge galv. steel siding bottom to top
This ENTIRE unit together will need to be raised into place AND come down on 5/8″ j-bolts into sill plate. We’re building it on a slightly raised ‘stage’ so that we have the height to come down onto the bolts .. but naturally we’re nervous about this and still looking for any possible approach that may assure success.
I’ve got the weight of this wall figured somewher around 1700 lbs just loosely sizing it all up … but wondering if anyone here might have a better means of calcing it. Any suggestions about it’s raising would be more than welcome as well. As soon as this one’s up we’re launching into the largest section we’ll do which is everything above but 19 feet long. Even heavier.
Thinking proctor jacks at the moment … never used them .. never built a wall this crazy big and heavy. Not a pro.
Thanks!
Terry
Replies
This ENTIRE unit together will need to be raised into place AND come down on 5/8" j-bolts into sill plate
The proctors won't do what you describe above
sounds to me you need to invest in some crane time.
Can you get all the "heavy" walls built then have the crane
come out and set them all at one time?
I agree with Butch. Wall jacks will not work. Jacks have to hang over top of wall and it sounds like you have no clearance for that. I think a crane would be best option. You will have a lot more control with setting the wall onto the bolts and into the correct position.
I agree with Deryl and Butch.
The problems associated with that tilt are numerous. I know professional framers with 25 years in the business that would mess that one up.
Hire a crane, and make darn sure that you properly make the hookup. There are substantial problems that need to be avoided when grabbing that wall. Don't let anyone stand within the fallzone, unless you don't like them.
blue
Thanks for the feedback thus far
A crane would be very difficult; the project is 80+ feet from anywhere a crane could sit .. and on the other side (backyard) of a 30 foot house. Also .. a busy arterial street out front .. but that can be temporarily posted off .. one lane.
The fences we are up against on two sides are only 6 ft. high wooden fences so we DO have clearance for the jacks at the top. We are building one of the two adjacent walls ON the other one right now .. this raises it's base to above the j-bolt height by a few inches. The current plan is to align the base perfectly with slightly oversized sill plate holes (the sill plate is the bottom plate here) and tilt it up till it 'slides' slightly. If the prep is done right and the wholes are aligned exactly it will have no place to go but over the bolts. Then ... on up into place. At that point the wall from base to 6 ft. is behind the opposite property's fence ... But since the steel siding will not be accessable then .. it all has to be set and placed and finished before raising. It doesn't seem 'too' scary to us ... If it's off on the first attempt we'll have to come back down and somehow bang it over slightly with a sledge or use bottle jacks or somesuch. The first wall .. the 15 footer ... we can't split or do any other way. The 19 footer I'm thinking there actually might be a way to do half and then half.
Any further suggestions or likely doom scenarios (to be avoided) greatly appreciated.
Thanks -
Terry
Terry, it will take the crane a total of about 30 minutes. You've already said that only one lane will be blocked. I'm sure the local authorities would prefer to block that street for the crane, rather than tie everything up longer for the cleanup and body count.
I've always felt that lowering walls was substantially more dangerous than raising them. You've cavalier attitude regarding such tells me that you might be in over your head. I would not allow any wall that I was tilting to "slide slightly" under load like you are suggesting.
You have been warned.
blue
thanks blue -
warning taken to heart ..
I truly appreciate your sober feedback
I'll look into the crane possibility.
thanks again to everyone responding -
Terry
So you're ending up 3" from a 6' wood fence, creating one of those little gaps that'll fill up with crud, hold moisture, rot their wood, and rust your steel. If it were my fence, I'd rather have you take part of it down, use part of my property for access during construction, and just replace part of the fence and tie it to the corner of your new structure.
-- J.S.
frame out your 15 ft section somewhere else and try moving that around - and realize this is before adding the sheathing, etc.
If it doesn't seem too "scary" to you, I can only figure you've never seen anything "fail catastrophically"
you might get lucky and be able to do this with "manpower" but that's a lot of weight to be messing with and the crane (or any machine capable of lifting it - backhoe?) is a whole lot better way of dealing with it
I've been involved in moving 600+ lb people and the easiest way was using a tower ladder (rather than 10-12 guys with straps/slings and worrying about who's going to get hurt - done that too)
things that heavy can go bad real fast
OK ... here's the final deal.
I spoke with 3 diff crane guys this a.m. and reaching over a 30 foot house to 90 ft back to lift 17 or 1800 lbs is a stretch. Also extremely expensive for such a modestly budgeted job. They've all got these 3 or 4 hr minimums and they're charging anywhere from 125 to 300 hr. PLUS ... huge rigs that would take 3 lanes (22 feet)of a busy street and require at LEAST a $350 permit plus flaggers and whatnot. I simply ain't doin a friggin crane. Way too complex, costly and time consuming (permits, etc.)
SO ... we split the wall in half this a.m. ... separated it... and we're nearly done with both halves blocking, sheathing, fire-core typex gwb, felt and galvinized steel. Now we'll have one 6 1/2 footer and then one 8 footer (long). Both 10 high. This 'appears' MUCH more managable and just doesn't make me so damn nervous to look at. The six footer may weigh max 800 lbs ... the 8 maybe close to 1000. Compared to the 14.5 ft 1700 or 1800 lbs these look ... friendly. We're going to use proctor wall jacks and braces and there are two of us working. It certainly looks doable without danger of 'catastophic failure' to me. They are strong, fully dressed out sheer panels now ..perfectly square and tight ... and must simply be stood up on their ends ... onto j-bolts and bolted down.... supported with braces. We're working in a clear, confined, controllable space with no 'special considerations like incline grade or whatever. The weather is clear and windless. I see we two as being able to handle the process.
I understand that this may be a fool's game. But we gotta get these walls up asap due to considerations I won't bother with here ... and it's as safe and doable as it is ... much more so than before we cut the wieght in half and shortened them this morning. So ... you know .. it's construction .. yes .. there is some physical risk.
Thanks for the feedback ... I'll post pics (from my hospital bed) if anyone's interested.
Terry
Make sure you anchor the bottom!
blue
Make sure you anchor the bottom!I don't think that is his intention from the way I understandhim to be saying. He has to raise the wall up on top ofthe j-bolts in the slab.
That's right ... we've got to come down over j-bolts. We're building it up on an 8inch 'stage' and raising it to 'slide down' slightly onto the bolts. JUST beyond the base of the wall, however, running the length .. is a very low cement wall which is a foot high .. so it aint goin nowhere if it somehow slides beyond the bolts .. which I believe it won't. Tomorrow morning ... two of us and a set of jacks .. two walls .. a 6 1/2 footer and an 8 footer.
If you folks here hadn't protested as loudly as some did NOT to do it ... and insisted on the danger involved we would've likely gone ahead with a nearly 15 foot wall weighing twice as much as we're now up against. In fact, my partner in crime was urging us to do the full 28 ft. ! ! ! So ... we split it under pressure from the forum here and now I'm glad we did ... THANKS VERY MUCH for speaking out and calling us nuts ... a valuable possibility of this forum. The wall is still more than some would advise we handle alone ... but at least it's not 6 1/2 feet and not 15!!!
Thanks again everyone. I'll send out postcards from the hospital after tomorrow.
Terry
Terry, I wouldn't have protested so much if I knew you knew how to handle a wall with wall jacks. I personally would build that little wall as one unit, but I would anchor the bottom. I know from experience that I don't want to rely on something to stop the wall after it gets momentum.
When a heavy wall starts moving and suddenly stops, the danger of the walljacks collapsing is very real. Another very dangerous possibility is the wall going off on an angle. This is a very dangerous situation because it puts lateral stress on the boom, and the jacks aren't built, nor anchored to deal with it. The wall starts sliding and the wall jacks fall sideways, tearing the bottom loose and sending them flying around like giant flyswatters.
You're lucky this is just a baby wall now.
blue
Ps When I first made my post, I thought the wall was 18' tall! Now I've learned that it's only 10' tall. That makes it significantly easier to deal with. Good luck.
devil,
you mention my "knowing how to handle a wall with wall jacks" but, truth be told, I've never layed hands or even eyes on a wall jack in my life! Gotta be a first time. I'm beginning a fairly ambitious project and will be using those proctor jacks over and over again over the course of the next year. Tomorrow a.m. will be my first taste.
We can't really 'anchor' the bottom because we are actually relying on it to move .. to slide slightly back and down over the j-bolts. But there is, as mentioned previously, a solid concrete wall to stop it only inches away .. so it absolutely CANNOT go sliding away or anything. We're just going to have to secure everything .. jack bottoms and whatever .. before proceeding and go very very carefully. It's my 28 yr. old son and I on it .. and we'll both be not only cautious but ready to RUN!
The scenario you describe is really scary sounding .. truly. But now we're only working a 6 1/2 foot structure that's 10 ft. high (as you mention) so ... you know .. it feels pretty doable even though it's all dressed out with gypsum and sheathing and steel siding and is 2x8's so it's quite heavy for it's size.
I dunno if anyone is ever interested in follow-ups around here on .. you know .. 'how something went'. But maybe I'll toss in a few words on how it went tomorrow night or Thursday. This is a major project I've been dreaming of and planning and talking with people about and drawing little plans for for at least 6 or 8 years so tomorrow's a really big day for us ... first walls up. This is a HIGHLY unusual structure we're putting together. The guys downtown that FINALLY permitted it said they'd never seen anything like it. It's gonna be fun to watch it grow.
Thanks again!
Love the knowledge and support here!
Terry
OK, this is the day you raise the wall(s).
I am a little late.
Knowone has ask how you are anchoring the wall jacks to the floor.
May be to late by the time you see this,... hope not.
Drill and anchor the wall jacks with quick bolts. Don't rely on blocking laying on the slab.
As Blue said, stuff can go south in a hurry when any part of a wall jack system fails.
At 28, your son may be a little faster than you, but neither of you are going to be fast enough.
BTDT, got the scars to show for it, and we were using a crane!
Dave
Thanks guys .. going to get the jacks now.
I'll post something later ..
big day!!!
:]
Newbuilder, you have to anchor the bottom! Where there's a will, there's a way.
Take some pictures and post them please?
blue
> I dunno if anyone is ever interested in follow-ups around here on .. you know .. 'how something went'.
We're very interested. One of the real irritations of this board is that people don't come back and tell us how things went. I at least learn a lot by finding out what didn't go as I expected.
-- J.S.
OK .. a followup on raising this 7 ft. wide by 10 1/2 ft. high 800 - 900 lbs. wall.
we got the proctor jacks and worked for hours trying to get the damn thing up and it's laying out there ... horizontal on the ground (slab). We have a real problem with the fact that we'll have no access to the back side of it once it's up so we had to totally build it BEFORE raising it AND since we're on the prop line we had to dress it out with gypsum board and metal siding (fire-code) which makes it HEAVY and, in addition to all of this we have to come down OVER j-bolts!!! So we built her on an 8 inch 'stage' hoping to slide her back and down over the bolts ... but it slid too early and almost got 'pinched' in at an angle ... locked in at the base between the back wall and the stage .. luckily that didn't happen but it DID try to go sideways on us. It was, in short, a nightmare of a day. I'm 're-calculating' our approach, and, luckily for me, my son, who is much more 'lets just do it and get it done NOW!' than I am is out of town for a few days so that I can re-envision and re-strategize our approach.
It is now clear that we never should have gone with the 'raise it and slide it' method. The last thing you want with a heavy wall is it 'sliding around'! And to think that before we split this wall and split it again it was a full 28 feet long and 2 to 3 tons in weight and my son wanted to do the whole thing at once .. just the two of us!!!
Anyway .. I've learned a little and got some knew ideas and will be approaching it some alone over the weekend. The real root of the problem on this is that the sill plate is the bottom plate and must be raised WITH the wall and needs to come down over those 3 or 4 inch j-bolt hold-downs. That has complicated things immensely.
Anyway .. there's my sad update ... I KNOW this babie's going up .. it's only a matter of WHEN! I KNOW there IS a way to do it. I'll add a note when our first victory is achieved.
thanks,
Terry
OK .. a followup on raising this 7 ft. wide by 10 1/2 ft. high 800 - 900 lbs. wall
Too bad you weren't successful.
Got a skyhook? Or another means of suspending the weight? I've raised considerably more than that with a simple comealong. Anything you can attach a cable between? That's how I set our bar joists on the house.
Here's a failed attempt to get an Oldsmobile atop a second story using cables. The problem was cable sag and too-low mounting points. Otherwise, worked fine. And I didn't waste a whole day doing it. <G> 8-900 lbs, and I would have been successful.
A gin pole will work. Google it if necessary.
Better luck next time.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I'm glad you two didn't get hurt. The guys warning you sure were right.
Since the biggest problem is that you didn't anchor the bottom plate and it slid I'm thinking cut off the anchor bolts. That way you don't lift, slide, drop the wall.
Once it's in place drill, epoxy in allthread as anchor bolts.
Terry ,sorry to hear of your problems. been there sort of we use the lull to lift fully built walls ,windows, siding, trim ect. lifted one from 20' up and had to slide it over 4' into place . it slid a little early right off the deck with a little bounce and sheared off 1/2 cable . landed right on top of me in the lull, bent in half. did I mention it was already dark at the end of a long day. anyway we straightened it in the morning and lifted it all 21' of it into place. Hang in there if you think long enough you'll come up with an idea.
david <!----><!---->
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sorry to hear your plan didn't work but good to hear no injuries/deaths - I'd take the "olds raising advise" with a "grain of salt" as the old saying goes - didn't work and looking at the picture quickly, you've got a guy standing under the load looking up, if something fails, he's gone (sorry if I offend anyone - but lots of things work more by good luck than good judgement)I'd go along with the lull or some other machine for moving your wall, maybe even getting a bobcat to lift it(?) - and also the drilling in the anchors rather than putting the wall over itany way, good luck and glad to see you're starting to appreciate some of the hazards of "large loads"
I'm cookin on it all .. .working out the next plan of attack in my son's absence.
Can't get a forklift or a crane back there .. back of a long prop bordered on each side.
I'll post back when progress is clearly made .. .next few days I dare say.
Thanks for the feedback!
Terry
I told you so.
I told you "anchor the bottom"! I said it about ten times. Are you going to now anchor the bottom?
I also told you that lowering the wall is more dangerous than raising it. I really wouldn't want to be in your shoes right now.
Your first priority is to anchor the bottom so it can't slide any more. You'll then have to figure out a way to drag the wall back up, while the wall is still half standing.
If I were in charge, and that wall was trying to launch itself off the deck, I'd probably:
1)anchor the bottom.
2) brace the top using several well connected braces.
3) release the walljacks.
4) rehook the wall jacks, anchoring them to the bottom of the wall.
5) brace the wall jacks so the top pulley is higher than the cable connection.
6) un-anchor the bottom
7) use the wall jack to drag the wall back to it's perch.
8)re-anchor the bottom
9) re-hook the wall jack onto the top plate
10) raise the wall to plumb
11) brace the wall anticipating that it will have to be "slid onto the j-bolts" (unless you've already cut them off).
12 unhook the wall jack.
13) re-position it much farther back and use it as a anchor for the top to keep the wall from falling away.
14) rig your wall to "slide" it.
15)slide it and lower it.
Take all this advice with a grain of salt. I don't really know what the situation is, but the basic jist of the advice is this: get control of all four corners of your wall and don't lose control of them again!
Anchor the bottom!
blue
FWIW idea to consider.
The pix is a 5_1/2 ft square 28 ft high tower that weighed about 1300# when erected. Built it flat on the ground so the grandkids could paint the side.
Method used was to use plates welded to rebar into the foundation to attach to the bottom plate vs. bolts. PT 4X6. bottom plate first attached to the foundation as expected to be in final position. Then made some hinges out of 3/8 steel plate with 3/4 grade 8 bolts for the pins, this attched to the foundation plates on one side and polted to the ends of the bottom plate, 2 ft long past the plate. Then swiveled the bottom plate 90 deg and built the tower on that, bolting the 2 ft hinge straps to the sides. When tower built, cheated and used a front loader to push it up, but wall jacks would have worked off to the side.
You may be able to bolt an angle iron or T to your 5/8 J bolts, then you have a good substantial hinge point to work with.
Edited 10/9/2005 6:28 pm ET by junkhound
Edited 10/9/2005 6:29 pm ET by junkhound
I get the idea that you have limited access but I'm going with you having some access, so that you should be able to get a "Bobcat" in there - you should be able to get one that has either a bucket or forks that you could secure the wall to, to lift it - if you can't get a machine with enough height to lift the wall (shouldn't need much over 12 ft) - maybe look at putting a plate at the outside edge as a stop and then lift the top edge to "raise" the wall - pre-drill holes for the anchor bolts and use something like flexible copper tubing to act as guide for matching the holes to the bolts any way of doing this is going to require either some kind of mechanical advantage (aka machines) or a lot of guys willing to take a chance on getting hurt lifting ittrying not to do the "I told you so" thing quite as much as "blue" but...........lot of things like this end up providing "job security"........ps to "blue" - nice job with the I-T-Y-S(s)
Hehehe Firedude. I'm not holding back. I told him, told him some more, then stressed it again. He didn't listen. He reminds me of my son!
blue
Lots of interesting methods here! first cut off the "j" bolts. build the wall upright 24" away from final position. Build with spacers underneath and on some skids. Support with large strong triangles into the floor deck area (cross brace as needed). Jiggle over to final position. Bolt a 4x8 to the inside of the wall and use bottle jacks to lift the wall up alittle to remove the skids and spacers. Lower in to place and bolt down. Get the idea?
Edited 10/9/2005 10:25 pm ET by USAnigel
(How do you do a "reply to All"? ... can't see that as an option for reply.)
The situation was that we were building up a little higher than the j-bolts and needed to be able to 'slide' down over them. We tied off the bottom plate but our error was that we tied it off to the side of exact center ... so when that weight was high enough and began wanting to slide backwards it slid to one side. Then we were stuck with a 'cockeyed' wall and everything all outa wack. We lowered her down and began to look at the situation all over again.
Over the last few days I've come up with some alternative ideas. I moved that wall ... and all by myself I might add, all 900 lbs of it ... which meant having to move an even heavier wall out of the way first ... followed by moving the 'stage' that the wall in question was laying on ... now I'm down to the cememt slab and I'll be moving the original wall BACK to the raising area only THIS time it will be flat on the ground (slab). Now I'll secure the bottom and raise it on up.
So here is a 'getting the sill plate over the j-bolt solution' that occured to me while tipsy on Shiraz the other night that i see very little fault with. Basically, you convert the 'hole' that the j-bolt comes through into a 'slot'. If created quite precisely and placed accurately then when the wall is tilted up the slot, at one end, receives the head of the bolt .. then .. as the wall continues up to verticle the bolt ends up at the front end of the slot where the hole would have been had the wall been lowered down directly over it. This does remove a bit more wood than would otherwise be necessary ... but if this whole back side of the j'bolt area on the sill were then covered with a simpson strip and well nailed up against the j-bolt and across the 'slot' ... my contention is that it would .. with the metal .. actually end up stronger than done 'properly without. It would mean that the wall could be simply raised without resorting to cranes or cutting off j-bolts and roto-hammering and epoxying or whatever.
Whadayathink?
Terry
Why in the world would you do all that work for those j-bolts when you can just cut them off and put expansion bolts in later?Joe Carola
Why in the world would you do all that work for those j-bolts when you can just cut them off and put expansion bolts in later?
Joe Carola
--------------------------
I already did it. And now I think the 'slot' idea is the best .. unless someone proves me wrong. The wall to be raised was up on the 'stage' that was built with the original plan of 'building high and coming down over' the bolts. I wanted to get the wall down on the ground .. now it feels safe to raise it. No relying on 'sliding' it .. which is a kind of 'controlled lack of control'. I didn't like that.
I just spoke with my architect and he assures me that the 'slot instead of hole' method would meet code .. especially with the simpson strip behind it. So .. if this had been conceived of by me prior to all of this I would have those walls up by now.
So ... the rain has let up some so I'm off to re-position that wall and slot out the j-holes.
I'll give an update for any interested.
Terry
How do you do a "reply to All"? ... can't see that as an option for replyIn the drop down menu under the name of the person you areresponding to "ALL" would be the very next name on that list
In the drop down menu under the name of the person you are
responding to "ALL" would be the very next name on that list.
Butch,
I honestly do not see such a drop down menu. on my screen it's just names, From: .. To: .... no drop down menu.
weird .. I dunno ---
Terry
When you hit reply and you go to a new window there is a header at the top of whereyou post your message From:butch
To:Drop down menu is here
Edited 10/10/2005 7:43 pm ET by butch
butch,
I am at that window now .. to respond to you.
And at the top left of my page it has:
From: newbuilder
To: butch
Under this it has: "Type in your message and click 'Post' "
and under that there are four drop-down menus, Paragraph, Font, Size, and Color.
Under these are Bold, Italics, Underline, etc. -- and then the space for writing.
I know it makes no sense, but I see no drop down as you describe.
I believe completely that you DO see it on your computer screen. And I have NO idea why we would be looking at differing pages. But I'm describing exactly what I see here to you.
Despite the weirdness ... I appreciate your touching back with me on it.
thanks -
Terry
Click on reply at the bottom of this message. At the top left of the reply frame you will see From: and your name in blue. Under that you will see To: and my name in black in a white rectangular box with a little black arrow point in a gray background to the right and the word Others in a blue box to the right of that.
The drop down menu of names is called by clicking on that little arrow point. My name will show up at the top of the list, in a blue box and then ALL will be next, along with a list of other recent posters.
Click on reply at the bottom of this message. At the top left of the reply frame you will see From: and your name in blue. Under that you will see To: and my name in black in a white rectangular box with a little black arrow point in a gray background to the right and the word Others in a blue box to the right of that.
================
I hate to say this but it just aint so.
I am in the 'reply' box now ... and at the top, as stated in an earlier post, is my name in blue after From ... and under that is YOUR name in blue also after To. They are both on a grey background, and there is NO "black arrow point in gray to the right..."
I can't explain it ... but I swear it's true! Maybe there are different servers east coast west coast or somesuch ... I dunno .. but my page is clearly different from yours. I must not be the only one. There is no little black arrow and no word "Others" and no 'blue box to the right' of anything.
thanks for your attempt though!
Terry
I see the problem.
At the bottom of the frame - not the reply frame - you will see the words ADVANCED VIEW in blue. Click on that. That will give you the options you are currently missing.
Ralph
bingo!
how could you tell?
I've never clicked on nor even noticed that "advanced view".
maybe everyone operates out of that(?)
thanks for hangin in and figuring it out!!
Best Regards,
Terry
I guess I'm going to go ahead and add one note. It seems odd to me that no one here .. not one of the experienced builders that frequent this board ... when I stated that I was fairly new to the game and hadn't ever laid eyes nor hand on a wall jack .. that not ONE of you mentioned the idea that the sill plate had to be ANCHORED before the raising of the wall! I mean, was that ommission purposefully left out because you were all interested in hearing the story of the disaster which was to follow? Some of you, blueeyedevil for example, seemed like you had ideas and experience surrounding this sort of thing ... and I stated over and over again .. probably ten times .. what it was we were up against and how 'spooky' it felt to lift that huge, heavy wall .. but not ONCE did you mention the necessity of anchoring the bottom plate!
I dunno .. just seems weird.
:]
that not ONE of you mentioned the idea that the sill plate had to be ANCHORED before the raising of the wall! <The proctors won't do what you describe above>This is my response to you regarding the proctor wall jacks2nd post in this thread, so why would I tell you to anchor the bottom plate if I was thinking you would use an alternative methodsuch as a crane.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=63933.11Post #11 blueeyedevil told you to anchor the bottom
-----but not ONCE did you mention the necessity of anchoring the bottom plate! -----Uh, hello?Blueeyeddevil mentioned it not once, but REPEATEDLY!http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=63933.11
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=63933.14
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=63933.17
HEY HEY HEY!!!!
THAT'S CALLED HUMOR, FOLKS ... HUMOR! I ended it with a smiley!
I KNOW that bedevil told me to anchor it!
Then he came on with a FLOOD OF "I TOLD YOU SO" 's!!
My response was "Yeah but, why didn't you TELL me to anchor it!"
Man o man! ... Aren't you familiar with IRONY!? With HUMOR!?
Unbelievable!
:))
Oops. Didn't see the smiley.Plus, it's a nonstandard smiley anyway -- I think your finger slipped off the shift key. Maybe that's why I didn't recognize it. And it was way down on the page. And I wasn't the only one to miss it.Besides, I'm kind of a humorless person anyway.(well, not really, but I really *did* miss the smiley).Thanks for pointing it out -- you really had me going.Rebeccah
Rebeccah,
Not to offend, really ... but it would just naturally seem to me that if you saw two guys standing there and the first guy said "I'm about to do this" ... and the second guy said, "Well be damn sure you attend to thus and such" .. and the first guy goes off and does what he intended and the failure involved involves what the second guy reminded him of .. .then the first guy comes back and says it failed largely because of this factor (which, not being a total idiot, he is fully aware he was warned of but circumstances involved in the project precluded honoring perfectly) and the second guy then says I TOLD YOU SO -- I TOLD YOU SO -- I TOLD YOU SO -- I TOLD YOU SO!!! ...to which the first guy responds, "why the hell didn't anyone here bother to tell me about this possibility!?" that you might want to consider -- smiley or no -- that this was the first guys attempt at a jokey response to the second guys abject trumpetting of his having warned in advance. Just my view of it.
In addition ... to lurk, saying nothing, until one spots an opportunity to lunge in with a "how could you be so wrong!?" post .. well .. it's just bad form. My suggestion would be that if you haven't been involved in any way in the thread ... that you self-restrain from diving in for the kill when you believe you may detect an opening.
Regards,
Terry
Well I'd have considered the possibility of its being a joke if I hadn't been so impressed with your utter disregard for Blue's warning and recommendation. And your failure to acknowledge recommendations regarding cutting off the existing bolts and replacing them with epoxy ones after the raising. Obviously, if I'd considered the possibility of its being a joke I wouldn't have commented as I did.And think about it, if it *hadn't* been a joke, how could anyone who had been reading the thread have refrained from pointing out the warnings that you claimed not to have seen?I'm not in the habit of "diving in for the kill" at the first available opening, believe it or not. But I do apologize for giving that impression. And I do hope the rest of your project goes well. Rebeccah
Well I'd have considered the possibility of its being a joke if I hadn't been so impressed with your utter disregard for Blue's warning and recommendation. And your failure to acknowledge recommendations regarding cutting off the existing bolts and replacing them with epoxy ones after the raising.
BeDevil's recommendation to anchor the bottom could not be followed completely because of the need, in the original plan, for the wall to slide down over the bolts into place. We were working for a controlled slide .. and I became convinced by our first try that this is too dangerous with so much weight involved. Your being "so impressed with [my] utter disregard..." was based in your lack of knowledge of all factors involved in the actual situation. You were, in short, deluded by mis-information.
Your commenting on my "failure to acknowledge recommendations regarding cutting off the existing bolts and replacing them with epoxy..." is, likewise, ludicrous. If you had actually been a participant in the thread you would have known that these suggestions were not made until AFTER the original attempt to raise the walls. It's all right there in the thread. So, again, your being "impressed" by another's "failure", as you say, is really only in your own misinformed mind. No bearing on the reality of the situation.
And think about it, if it *hadn't* been a joke...
But it was.
Again, I'd suggest remaining a lurker unless you've got something positive to contribute to a discussion ... especially after it's 30 or 40 posts down the line and the corresponding building project is in full swing. Reading through all the mssg's ... It's difficult to discern how your sudden entry into the process of several people trying to figure out a way around a very real and complex problem actually adds anything at all worth noting.
Thanks,
Terry
-----BeDevil's recommendation to anchor the bottom could not be followed completely because of the need, in the original plan, for the wall to slide down over the bolts into place. We were working for a controlled slide .. -----And more than one person in the thread, including blueeyeddevil, told you that your original plan was not a good one and that the slide could not be adequately controlled. Most recommended you suspend the wall rather than tilting it up. Blueeyeddevil repeatedly warned you to anchor the bottom. Rather than working out how your plan could be modified to allow for anchoring the bottom, you went ahead with the original plan.-----Your being "so impressed with [my] utter disregard..." was based in your lack of knowledge of all factors involved in the actual situation. You were, in short, deluded by mis-information. -----I was nothing of the kind. Granted, I was lurking, but I've been following the thread since about the 10th post or so. Perhaps disregarded is not the right word by your usage. You regarded Blue's warnings and acknowledged them, then proceeded to to flout them because you were bent on your original plan.-----Your commenting on my "failure to acknowledge recommendations regarding cutting off the existing bolts and replacing them with epoxy..." is, likewise, ludicrous. If you had actually been a participant in the thread you would have known that these suggestions were not made until AFTER the original attempt to raise the walls. It's all right there in the thread. So, again, your being "impressed" by another's "failure", as you say, is really only in your own misinformed mind. No bearing on the reality of the situation.-----The recommendation to cut off the bolts was made *before* you decided to elongate the holes into slots, and is similarly being ignored. I have no idea whether the slot trick will work, and I sincerely hope it does. But I did read your post saying in effect, "never mind, I'm going ahead with my plan B instead of what you recommend now that plan A has failed", and it did contribute to my predisposition to take your humorous post at face value.-----
And think about it, if it *hadn't* been a joke...But it was.
-----I understand that. However, you are criticizing my post based on a misinterpretation of yours. Again, if I had interpreted your post correctly, it would not have been amiss to point out that you had in fact been warned, although it probably would still have been ill-received coming from a lurker than an active participant. However, I did not interpret your post correctly, I've apologized, and I agree that at this point in the thread, further criticism of what you've done with the advice offered is not useful.Rebeccah
Newbie - Going after Rebeccah that way isn't going to make you any friends around here. She didn't try to rip you apart and your apparent anger is a little excessive in the situation. Hundreds, if not thousands of people saw your post. Some chose not to respond. Some probably walked away shaking their heads. Some may have said - let's see how he does. Not everyone has the answers on their fingertips for every question. Some people may even be intimidated about posting. So, let it go. Don't make it look like you are thin skinned - or pigheaded.
As far as the problem goes, it seems like you want people to tell you that your way is going to work, and you've wanted that since the start. Unfortunately, there haven't been too many takers. You are trying to handle a lot of weight in awkward positions and move it around the way you want it to go. It isn't that easy. Can it be done with bull power? Yes, it probably can - by a team of workers that do this all the time, who know how to anticipate the loads and the way these things move. Can it be done by two newbies with a couple jacks? Maybe and maybe not.
You aren't new on the site, so you should know that bedevil (I actually like that name) has put up more walls in a week than you are likely to in the rest of your life. When it comes to handling these monsters, the man is an expert. He's done it with manpower, with jacks and with machines. He's done them under good conditions and bad, and yes, he's made his share of mistakes in those times. That's experience talking. Others who posted are also experienced. For all intents and purposes, you generally ignored their advice (other than cutting the wall in half) and did it your way. You are lucky you didn't really lose control of that one and neither you nor your son got squashed. Even a small wall (800#) hurts when it lands on top of you.
You asked for advice. It was given. If you want to debate why your way is better, then you need to have a basis for the debate. So far, you don't. You have no experience, little research, and no success. Your anger isn't winning the point and neither is the fact that you could move these things while they are flat on the ground. That's a different ball game.
I wish you good luck in your efforts, but lose the attitude.
Don K.
Donny,
I'm pretty used to responding to people in whatever manner I feel is appropriate to the given situation. My response to Becky had nothing to do with anger, it was merely as direct as her interjection into the thread was, but more potentially useful to her than was hers to me. If you find that somehow upsetting I'm not sure that you should bring your disturbance to me, as I'm uncertain as to how I might be able to help you with that. Good luck with workin that out, however.
No one reading through my posts, which date back longer than you have been around, would come to the natural conclusion that I was thin-skinned... and only possibly 'pigheaded' , if by that you mean stubborn, in a way that I greatly value and that your distant/late input will have less than zero effect upon. I mean C'mon .. get real.
I came onto the board with this particular problem because it is a tough, unusual situation that those I spoke with in person couldn't seem to agree upon in terms of a sound, rational approach. I therefore felt that I needed further input on the matter before proceeding, but was in the position of having my 'helper' around for only a very short time, so, needed to proceed asap. I have walls that must be built completely while down due to inaccessablilty once they're up, must be OVERbuilt to comply with fire regs due to being within the setbacks rendering them unusually heavy per sf, and, to compound matters further, they must be somehow gotten up and over j-bolts that are every 24" in one wall and every 16" in another due to the multiple-story sheer requirements.
You are dead wrong in surmising what my internal state was; why in the world would I go out of my way to ask about approaching the problem if I thought I had it all figured out? In all of my forays onto the Taunton Boards I find that there are 'takers' enough -- despite your (what I consider to be false) declaration of 'few takers' -- and that the advice and the discussions are very often of incredible value to me. Considering the difficulty in accurately communicating all actual, physical aspects of any specific building problem it is really quite amazing that so often the feedback can really help to break a conceptual logjam or add just the angle needed on a problem to allow for the emergence of a new view of how it might be done. I am nearly always extremely greatfull for the high level of supportive feedback I receive from the boards. Frankly, your views on 'why' I come here or 'what I want people to tell me' are so completely off the mark they are just plain worthless.
As to blueyedevil's feedback on the problem, I valued it greatly enough that it changed our approach. We halved the original wall we were working with, and if we had not been working for a 'controlled slide' I certainly would have 'anchored the sill' more completely than we did. As it was we could not completely anchor it (how many times have I said this?)... and other local builders on my end thought that our approach sounded like one of the few possibilities left open to us by the strange confluence of factors that rendered the entire operation more difficult than it had originally appeared to be on paper. Our mistake in the raising was actually NOT that we did not anchor the base ... but that we anchored it at one point only and just off of center. I totally admit that I 'should' have seen that ... the wall went the only way it could. We definitely should have held it back at multiple points. Again, I strongly appreciated bdevils input AND that of others and I repeatedly reflected my own appreciation back to the board. For you to lamely and obviously attempt to imply that I did not ... well .. it's just too weird for words. Who is it that's got the attitude?
I now have two possible approaches that are safe and effective. One is the idea of cutting off the bolts and and epoxying them in after the raise. It's a great idea which I ran by my architect today for code evaluation for shear walls and it's a go if I choose it. That idea alone, given my situation, would have TOTALLY bailed me out of my difficulty were it the only thing to come out of this discussion. But I also realized that a simple elongation of the holes into 'slots' that will accompany the bolts on a normal raise without any jockeying around will accomplish the same end with far less labor. I also ran THAT past my architect/engineer and he was amazed at the simplicity of it and at it's obvious soundness. At this point I believe it to be the most 'elegent' solution to the problem ... the one that, inevitably, I wish I had realized in my first talk through with the architect when he declaired, "the one thing I have no idea how you're going to do is getting these incredibly heavy walls up and down over the bolts." Yes ... perhaps he should have 'seen' the 'drill 'em later' solution ... but he didn't at the time and it took several days and 32 messages in before someone here (USAnigel) mentioned it as a solution. Hell, I was working directly with the problems and materials on site and I didn't see it either untill I had a glass of Shiraz in me.
I don't care much for what I get as your attitude towards usage of the Taunton Boards. You state bluntly, "you asked for advice. It was given. If you want to debate why your way .....yadda yadda .." You've got your view I've got mine ... but I believe the boards are for DISCUSSION. This problem, for instance, was not a cut and dried thing. It required brainstorming ... various suggestions coming from all sides ... building on one another. Everyone in the thread participated in this process EXCEPT you and Becky ... who sat back then came in late with criticizm. Then, you accuse me of a 'bad attitude'. Truly now Don, isn't that some kind of definition for 'irony'???
I really love the Taunton Boards and will happily continue to use them as I see fit. I GREATLY appreciate everyone who contributes positively to them, and, as a subscriber to Fine Homebuilding for many many years now, I am delighted that they've gone out of their way to create and maintain this forum. As mentioned earlier, I've been aided in clarifying and approaching practical building problems on innumerable occassions. I couldn't be more thankfull for that.
As to your comment on my having no experience and no success? Well .. it's really that I have 'little' experience ... that's why I come around here! And my success in this project which many pro builders have labeled as extreeeeemely tricky .. is JUST around the corner.
Relax Don. Every problem has multiple possible approaches. And all of us are different in how we see things and in our own personal approach to the utilization of advice from others. I got a great deal out of this thread and will continue to post here as needed!
I sincerely wish you well,
Terry
Who's Becky? I don't see any posts from her.
I hope your slotting method works. If it doesnt just lop off the existing j bolts and drill the sill plate and use Red Head expanding anchors...its so simple and fast. You could have been done by now.
BeDevil's recommendation to anchor the bottom could not be followed completely because of the need, in the original plan, for the wall to slide down over the bolts into place. We were working for a controlled slide
Sorry for butting into your little tiff, but this is the exact point at where you went wrong.
The only way you could possibly attain a "controlled slide" is by anchoring the bottom. If you had raised your argument before you raised the wall, I could have explained in more detail what had to be done.
When raising a heavy wall, there is one given that should not be ignored; " the bottom will slide out from under you, unless you anchor it." You now know that it is difficult to raise a wall, but far more difficult to correct a wall that has slid out of control.
I've used a very wide variety of anchoring the bottoms of some very difficult walls and I'm sure I could have come up with a solution for your adventurous "controlled slide".
Personally, I would have slotted the plate and added a 3" x 3" x 1/4" steel washer.
I didn't want to give you any other message other than to "Anchor the bottom!".
Oh, did I mention that "I told you so!"
blue
We raised the first section of the first wall last night with my new and improved 'slot method' and it went up like a breeze. About an 8 or 9 hundred pound wall. Today we cleared the deck and raised the next section ... about 11 or 12 hundred pounds. A perfect lift over the slots and tightened right down. So ... the slotting was the key to success in this undertaking and we're on our way.
Even now the anchoring is a difficult thing since we're working off of a cement slab. We've been tying the base back ... roping it back to our bolted down lifting platform that the proctor's tie down to. It's a little sketchy but so far so good. Tomorrow a.m. we'll get the first portion of the West wall up and we'll have a "V" ... a 90 degree angle up. I'll feel much more secure then.
The MOMENT that first wall slid off to the side .. even though it was slight ... I saw/felt the power of so much weight in motion and absolutely knew that we were not going to repeat that move. The first thing I did the next morning was to bring that wall back down from the platform onto the cement slab. Then, the idea of slotting occured and that really made what was necessary possible.
Believe me, I'm going to display that certification with pride!
Thanks to all who truly offered a helping hand!
This is a four story structure (!) and in a few days I'll be completely on my own for the rest of the project, so I'm sure there'll be many questions to follow along the way. All positive feedback strongly appreciated!
Thanks again -
Terry
Where are the progress pics?
Congrats Newbuilder, you're very close to certification. I need to see the pictures before I certify.
One of the very clever ideas that I came up with to anchor bottoms, when working on concrete was to run a long banding iron from the bottom of the wall all the way to the wall jack. That idea was a variation of a trick I used to use when I built large wall on shaky garage block jobs. Actually, all the garage block that we build on are shaky, but some can be literally kicked over with slippers on.
Anyways, I use to run a 2x6 from the wall jack all the way under the wall I was raising. I'd stick it past the wall about 3', then build some sort of wall stopper. When I started to crank the wall, the wall would be butting against the stop, which was tied back to the wall jack, which was being pinned tightly to the ground by the sheer weight of the wall. Essentially, I had created a giant triangle.
When the wall was plumb, I'd cut the 2x6 off and drive it out from under the wall. The wall would land with a thunk. We never had any block fall over when I started using that techinique.
I first created that technique when I was faced with raising a very heavy 11' tall garage wall on top of a 4' high block foundation wall that was built using 4" blocks! If that wall had toppled, we would still be drooling in our chairs if we survived.
blue
certify or certifiable after some of the previous foolishness?
Congrats Newbuilder, you're very close to certification. I need to see the pictures before I certify.
Hey thanks blue! Right now my camera seems to be refusing to communicate with my 'puter ... some kind of misagreement. As SOON as I can get things ironed out between them I'll post some pics.
One of the very clever ideas that I came up with to anchor bottoms, when working on concrete was to run a long banding iron from the bottom of the wall all the way to the wall jack. That idea was....
That was a great idea! I really love the process of coming up flat against a seemingly impenetrable situation ... rolling it around for awhile until a glimpse of light appears somewhere .. then pursuing that sliver to it's opening into a full-on, workable solution. In building that can be a daily experience. For me it's a great part of the joy of it all.
We've had rain on and off and things just take time ... so the whole thing's moving slowly. It's weird .. two of us have been out there for 8 - 10 hrs a day working strongly and fairly constantly ... I know that for a fact cuz I'm one of the two! But if I wandered on site right now I'd definitely wonder why it wasn't all further along than it appears. It's amazing how much man-time goes into the process of basically just shaping and fastening parts together!
----------------------
SamT,
Thanks a lot for the detailed approach description. Looks like we're up and running with the approach we settled on. But I definitely appreciate the input!
firedude,
Point taken. Definitely both ... no doubt about it! This whole project is a clear testament to that!
atrident,
this method was mentioned after about 30 posts to the thread. It's DEFINITELY the way we SHOULD have gone. It would have made everything MUCH easier. If someone had mentioned it early on it would have been our way now. But the slotting is really simple and works well. When the wall is up to 25 or 30 degrees you can look right through the slots at the j-bolts and see if the alignment is on. It's good. In the end if the inspector looks at the sill plates and doesn't 'like' the slots.... then we always have the back-up of opting to drill and epoxy j-bolts in between to 'make it right'. But as to "you could have been done by now" ... huh uh ... no effing way. thanks.
---------------
I'll get some pics up asap ... hopefully this week.
"All be bok"
Terry
Congrats Newbuilder, you're very close to certification. I need to see the pictures before I certify.
b-e-devil ... here ya go!
Congrats Newbuilder. You are now certified as a tiny wall jacker!
The setup doesn't show how you anchored the bottom, but obviously you did something right.
LOL.
blue
Congrats Newbuilder. You are now certified as a tiny wall jacker!
HEY!
A fifteen foot wall ten feet high fully clad in gwb, metal, sheething and framed in 2X8 all weighing in at over 3-quarters of a ton is NOT a "tiny wall"!!!
:)
Dear Newbuilder,
Here are approximate load calculations for your wall:
1. cdx = #2552. 5/8 gwb = #4203. 5/8 gwb = #4204. metal siding (guess) = #3005. 2x8 studs 24" o/c = #288
total = #1,683 or 112.2 plf
Looks like you were in the ballpark.
Remember, your not only building walls, but also building memories!
Next time consider this... LOL
john,
not certain which past post in the thread this refers to -- how long and high the wall .. etc. ... but i like the picture!
(my walls are 2x8! -- 10 ft. tall .. )
T
I realize the info is way late, as I just discovered the post yesterday. These calc's have to do with your 15'L. x 10'H. wall with 2x8's @ 24" o/c. Looks like everything is under control with your project? Also, did you consider using alternate materials vs. the system your using? Just wondering.
Regards!
?? "alternative materials" ??
pray tell what Do you mean?
T
I was primarily thinking of SIPs. An 8 1/4 "x4'x8' panel weighs around 111 lbs.
I was primarily thinking of SIPs. An 8 1/4 "x4'x8' panel weighs around 111 lbs.
Yeah .. I did look at SIP's briefly .. but I enjoy building every square inch from scratch. The weight factor DOES sound great though!
Actually though .. this is a HIGHLY unusual project with many SW-3 and SW-4 walls. I don't think that SIP's would have met code on that. I've got single walls, for instance, that in only 19 ft. contain 5 6X6 posts held down by Simpson HD14A 's (HUGE!) with 4 1 inch bolts running through each of them and each bolted down to 1 inch thick threaded rod sunk 30 inches deep in concrete, with 3X framing and 2" nailing. That's a strong wall that aint goin anywhere.
T
Newbuilder, I got the humor on the first reading. And I'm sure you got the humor intended with my "I told you so"!
You are now an experienced wall jack operator. If you can get the second wall up without incident, I'll certify you.
blue
NewBuilder,
Re: Anchoring ther bottom. . .
In the chain link fencing department you can find some heavy duty strap hinge pieces. IIRC, they are sized for a 9/16" pin. Buy 12 of them, 4 to bolt to the floor and 8 to the wall. Buy 4 long J-bolts (they are Ell shaped, whey do they call them "J" bolts?)
Pick a stud and thru bolt 2 straps to it and slide the verticle side of the J-bolt thru the loop and nut the top.
Bolt the 3rd strap to the floor in the right place. Repeat 3 more times for each set of "Sam's Sliding Anchor Hinges." Slide the wall over to the floor sets and sideways to slip the short end of the J-bolts into the floor sets.
Place a Stop on the floor next to the wall on the "slide out of the hinge" side of the wall.
*Tip. Set the 1st floor piece exactly on the spot. Set the second 1/8" away from its setting, the 3rd 1/4" away, and the 4th 3/8" away, so as you slide the wall and the J-bolts into the floor sets you only have to get one at a time started in the hole.
View Image
Then, you can use simple A-frames and a cross piece to Lift and raise and lower your walls (any length) with come-alongs. When the wall is as verticle as it gets without bending the anchors, you should be able to pry up the bottom and put some blocks under it so you can get fully verticle. An alternative is to use some more strap-hinges and straight rods to make a sliding base anchor. I would use all thread and 2 hinge straps on each side of the sliding block and 4 more straps to the deck. Block it from sliding in any manner untill the wall is fully verticle.
SamT
So how ya gonna weatherproof the joints between the wall sections once they're up?Lignum est bonum.
Why don't you cut the j-bolts outof the way if there giving you a hard time and put bolts back in later?Joe Carola