Just curious what kind of wages people been getting lately.
I live and work in Estes Park Co. Things seem a little light interms of pay around here. I have never been on a crew here and made more than 14 bucks an hour. Is that fair? Am I just thinking that guys are making way more?
I am young (24) but I have been building since I was about 12 or 13. I grew up working for my father who is a remodeler in Mass.
I can do many tasks unsupervised, especially doors and trim. I can frame pretty well also. I generally shine when given some authority and responsibility. So Im wondering what guys are making nationwide.
CUT IT TWICE AND IT’S STILL TOO SHORT!
Replies
i assume you mean 14 US and no benefits prepaid
that seems low to me, i run my own business with no employees and i need to do about 25/hr cdn and 30 is way better
but for that i supply a truck, all tools and pay my own comp and health plan
caulking is not a piece of trim
I don't have any statistics in hand, but my impression is that wages will always be lower than average in a resort town, because there are always people who will accept a lower wage for the privilege of living in a really beautiful place. (Or at least in a really beautiful setting. I don't remember the town itself being all that beautiful.)
From what I read, the whole state of Montana has the same problem. People want to live there, even if they can only make a marginal living, and it puts a lot of downward pressure on wages.
around here top wage is about $8 with no benefits, but its also cheap to live here
I'd say that's middlin' fair for your experience. My stepson was making about same for me here when he moved to Montana. He's making ten there now. Go figure...???...The salary I pay myself is actually pretty close to $15/hr as owner and top dog. But I can get all the hours I want and benefits are OK.
;)
I hope you are talking real wage job and not schlock subcontractor at that rate.
Steve described himself as one who is a subcontractor in US standards. if he is charging 25 that way, his true wage is more like 12.50.
Excellence is its own reward!
I live in the Vail Valley, a similiar building environment cost wise as Estes I think. Guys around here are making $25-30/hour for trim work, maybe more if they can work well without supervision, a tough thing to find in a person. This typically is based on using their own tools and transportation. Most trim subcontractors are charging upwards of $45-50/hour for change orders so their wage at the above cost would make some sense. I think Vail might be a bit more expensive to live in, but most guys I know seem to make a decent living at that level. I think project management on the general side is definately lower here than other places, super's seem to be getting about the same as the carpenter.
One of my brothers lives outside Snowmass, and gets by doing carpentry. He's got 5 kids, too, and he loves where he's living, but did I mention he just gets by?
Round here, NC, I've hired guys younger than you, as subcontractors: tools & insurance, who I can let go on a job, for 18 bucks an hour. Sounds like you don't have much responsibility and are getting paid accordingly.
You want the big bucks, go out on your own<G>
EliphIno!
OFTHEWOOD, on the one hand I could say I began my career as a carpenter when I was 16, and I certainly would be justified in saying it began when when I was in college because it was one of the things I studied in college (albiet it was stage carpentry) and I was working for builders part-time through the year and full-time in the summer in nearby Greenwich CT. But even then I still don't really count and start loggin my experience until I was done with school and really a carpenter.
In other words if I was a prospective employer I would really be dubious if you claimed to have 11 years experience. I hope you don't to that. Anyway (not really knowing you) I would probably peg you in the 3-5 years experience category.
According to Salary.com that puts you in their Carpenter II profile
Carpenter II-Inspects, repairs, installs, modifies, rebuilds, constructs, and maintains woodwork and other related structures. Requires a high school diploma or its equivalent. May have to complete an apprenticeship and/or formal training in area of specialty with 2-5 years of experience in the field or in a related area. Familiar with standard concepts, practices, and procedures within a particular field. Relies on limited experience and judgment to plan and accomplish goals. Performs a variety of tasks. Works under general supervision. A certain degree of creativity and latitude is required. Typically reports to a supervisor/manager.
According to them, and I've found them to be pretty accurate and good for looking at a "middle of the market" contractors pay scale, a Carpenter II in Estes Park, CO 80517 makes between $14.21 and $18.12 per hour so you on the low end of the scale.
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That breaks down as follows:
(52 weeks)
(2000 hrs)
So I'm thinking while I don't really know you and I do hope your not saying you have 11 years experience I do figure you to probably be a lot better and more serious than the typical "Carpenter II" type guy so I'm thinking you should maybe think about working to improve your lot or position. Your probably worth at least that 75th%tile wage.
However don't be too romanced by hearing what guys are making as subs and then figuring that you could easily do better for yourself going out on your own. That could really backfire on you if you don't really approach it as a building a BUSINESS and not just as creating a job for yourself. Poet Robert frost once wrote: "By working faithfully eight hours a day, you may eventually get
to be a boss and work 12 hours a day."
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thanks to all who chimed in.
Jerrald, you are right to say that in reality I don't have 11 years experience.
I'd probobly come off sounding like a fool claiming that. But I definetly learned aspects of construction that guys way older than me don't know. I was dealing with customers as a carpenter and driving around to multiple sites coordinating stuff with my dad's lead guys, when I was 18 and 19. Because his company did almost every phase of construction, I learned the ropes of full site managment, from excavation to paint. It wasn't until I left to work for a real high end restoration contractor in rural NH, that I realized that carpentry was it for me.
Ive flirted with the idea of going on my own. Ive done several hardwood floors in town and some interior stuff. Ive shyed away from going all out. mostly because Im too scared. And I also realize that I have MUCH still to learn. A lot of builders would be nervous subbing out to a 24 year old, no?
Im in the process of job hunting as we speak and all the offers I,ve had have been for the same wage I was making before. That's ok if it comes with a chance of promotion and a higher level of responsibilty, that's really what Im after. But I really don't want to move backwards or sell myself short. Thanks again for everyones valued opinions.
CUT IT TWICE AND IT'S STILL TOO SHORT!
Just questions/ comments about the job hunt........
Are you just answering ads that are in the newspaper? I would suggest doing some research and find a couple of companies that you find interesting/ think that you would like to work for. Call those companies up and see if they would be interested in taking another carpenter on. You may not find better pay, but you may find a better company with the potential for more pay/ responsibility.
Keep doing the side jobs but treat them as a real business ( make up estimates, time scedules, etc). This will all help if/when you go out on your own.
Good luck
M2akita
I don't know if this is a good barometer, but in the Bay Area, CA, I will pick a couple illegals off the street and the going rate is about $10/hour, plus lunch (i'm not going to negotiate anything lower as we're maybe talking about $20 per day and they work hard). I do everything they do i.e. handling a shovel, but you find some good ones and they are worth their weight in gold--hard workers.
I have young carpenters who are also illegal (they have the necessary paperwork for the INS), but they come from my foundation, framing subcontractor to do side jobs and I gladly pay them $16/hour, and I think I am getting a deal. They like working for me because I pay them cash and the dickhead owner of the company keeps having them accumulate hours for time off...whatever, these guys are good and the lead carpentry of the company gives me a heads up if they are available.
I had one of the principals of the company above ask me about finish carpentry/work and would charge $25/hour. I thought that was a little odd about him proposing that as we didn't get on that well, but I would rather have him do a side job for another foundation if that is possible down the road.
My impression is that if you are good, you can't necessarily ask your own price, but you can certainly justify your fee or hourly; if the customer balks, then you probably don't want to work for them.
Good to hear that you're helping to wreck the image of this industry, and keeping the wages low for all the "legal", hardworking individuals amongst us by hiring illegal day labor at low rates.
What happens if one of these guys cuts through his leg on your jobsite and requires medical attention, or god forbid, dies? Somehow I think the California WC board would refuse to pay that claim, and the licensing board may have an issue with it too. But then again, I'm making the assumption that you actually have a proper license in the first place.
Sorry to sound blunt, but it irks me that a guys starts a post regarding wanting to work hard and earn a decent wage, and it gets a reply regarding hiring illegal aliens to work on a construction site. That's the problem with this industry- even with the attempts at regulating contractors, we all still have to deal with competing with those who won't do things properly. Guess I had too much coffee this morning.....
Bob
Well SpokeOn An Island By The SEA
Wiley I generally try to avoid negativism in these forums here as much as I can but what your talking about I find appalling and not to mention illegal. Have you given any real moral thought to what your doing?
You pay these people cash for what reason? Because they like it or it allows you skip without paying workers comp, social security etc.
I'm having a hard time understanding just what your writing about in your last two paragraphs but regardless where you mention "I had one of the principals of the company above ask me about finish carpentry/work and would charge $25/hour. " if by "Bay Area" you mean the SF Bay area it's my understanding that real carpenter wages (that wages not billing rates) start at $25/hour out there.
I don't think what you talking about is a good barometer at all. Your talking about the seamy underside of this industry, black market labor.
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Any carpenter working for less than 20.00/hour is cheating theirselves and their families. What's the federal poverty line for a family of 4 nowdays? 35, 40K? If you can't keep your family above the poverty line, what the heck are you doing?
"No one can step on you if you don't lay down".
Buck up and take some pride in your profession. Demand a fair wage.
Jim, what about a 24 year old with no family, and not a whole lot of experience or talent, just yet.
I just had to hire a trim crew to take up some overflow. $30/hr for the bossman(who incidently is a friend), $25/hr for his carps. These guys are damn good craftsmen, and I'm dealing with an insured and extremely competent subcontractor, and with all the tools, except a Kreg jig<G> I lent them mine. I'm sure he's not paying his guys more than $20/hr, and they have almost all their own tools...now, maybe things are different in your neck of the woods, but paying $20/hr around here for a kinda sorta experienced carp without all the accoutrements would put me out of business, if I even considered hiring him/her<G>. EliphIno!
Billy,
That's just about the way it is !On An Island By The SEA
"Jim, what about a 24 year old with no family, and not a whole lot of experience or talent, just yet"
I doubt that a 24 year old could be a "carpenter", unless he/she had a lot of talent and an unusual amount of experience for someone that age, 'snort. I mean, that's the thing, right? You can't just drive a pick-up, have a bunch of tools, and be a carpenter. It takes years of the right kind of experience PLUS talent, just like any true profession.
The other really tricky thing is all this specialization anymore. Guys specialize in finish work, or framing, or foundations, and after a few years they get real good at that one specialty and before you know it they're making a darned good living and have a few guys working for them...well good on 'em. I don't have any problem with that, but that doesn't make them carpenters. That makes them finish carpenters. Or framers. Or concrete specialists. "Carpentry" includes all those skillsets, and many more.
I guess what I'm saying is, making money building doesn't make someone a carpenter. That takes years, and the right circumstances, and injury luck, and desire, and a lot of want to. And anyone fortunate enough to have all those stars align for them is worth 20.00/hour, hell, they're worth far more than that.
Got big plans for some baby back ribs tomorrow. Then the missus and I are headed to the stock car track in the evening. Got that dirt track bug again. Life is good.
I work for a company in Austin TX. and I get 20 an hour, plus a little paid vacation and a few holidays, I have good insurance through my wife so I don't kneed that.
There are also a few illegals working there, I know of one that is damn good taper/floater, a good kid, he makes 13 or 14 and hr.
This last weekend we all worked about 30 hrs overtime to finish up a job that had to be done.
Payday Thurs. he takes home the same amount that I do, kinda discouraging, I don't mind paying the taxes(well I do, but cant do much about it)but I see this as a problem just as Bob and Jerald said before me, In this area as well as Calif. and quit a few other states this is becoming a big problem, as long as it goes on wages are going to suffer.
I'm very lucky and don't have anything personal against the illegals wanting to work, I probably would do the same if in there position, but its a problem that needs addressing, don't see it happening though.
I would be very concerned about an injury to someone that you illegally hire though. Its kind of like the buying stolen tools thing, if you buy them you are adding to the problem, if you hire these guys you are also adding to the problem, but hey money drives a lot of people and if its that important to you than have at it.
I know this is off the subject of the thread but I see this as a growing problem, lived in Iowa just 6 short months ago and you could already see it starting there, got down here to TX. and boy do you really see it.
Thanks for the forum to rant.
Doug
union pays a lot better + benefits---
In Minneapolis I was making 25.00/hr as a lead carpenter. Lots of Carpenter II type skill sets making about 18-20/hr. Pretty typical there. I had no benefits, but other places in town had similar pay plus benefits. Billing rate to clients was about 50-60 bucks/hr on average.
I'm going back to rural NY State where I will be billing out to clients at $30/hr...for a variety of personal and lifestyle issues.
Steve
The local that represents the school boards in my area have a current contract for $29.61/hour plus benefits (health, dental, vision, drugs, pension, paid holidays and paid vaction) for newly qualified jouneymen in general carpentry - they have trouble filling positions. .
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario