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I’m a superintendent for a firm who builds, owns, and operates assisted living facilities. My background is framing and finish carpentry, so I’ve had my share of laughs… (ie: headaches), figuring out how to make things work from the architectural sheets. My firm uses an in-house architect, and we’re lucky to have someone with some building experience. The biggest difference I find in working with him is that he is very open to comments and suggestions from the superintendents. If I have a concern over a particular element of his drawings, I simply draw up a detail of the change I would like to make and include a list of advantages that could be attained. Sometimes he talks me out of it, but most of the time he agrees with me. I have to admit that this is an architect we’ve just brought on board. Our previous architect was not so easy to work with, and would take my requests and suggestions as a personal affront to his authority. It is a pleasure to work with a designer who has some first-hand knowledge of how things go together. And, hey, J Callahan, I’m teaching myself Autocad so I can better communicate with my architect!
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sounds like you got a keeper there J. There's nothing more impressive than someone with an open mind. You'd better do what you can to keep him around. (or send him out our way) - yb
*J,Couldn't help but comment on this; something near and dear to me. In the field I'm in, this issue of designer vs. builder is always coming up. What is "designable" is not necessarily "buildable" (or easily built). For years designers would throw out a drawing and call it done. Not open to changing it, not concerned what it might entail as far as builing it, didn't in fact really know what it TOOK to build it. Things have slowly but surely started to change around the company; we now have what are called "IPT's"- Intergrated product Teams. These are basically a "team" composed of all the major players in the production of the product; designer, manufacturing, planning, quality control etc. What has been interesting is the change in the attitudes of some of the designers (engineers), they have actually started asking questions! Is it really possible to build this? What would make it easier? What are realistic tolerances? We still have plenty of old die-hards who's attitudes are, "I design it, you build it" but they are having a tougher and tougher time surviving these days. At the same time, the people actually doing the work have learned that sometimes what is shown on a design really IS necessary; the drawing isn't just some capricious or mercurial idea or whim of the designer. There are elements of the"big picture" that may play into a design that the person down on the shop floor can't see. So in answer to your question, Yes, they can definitely learn from one another (IMHO).Better keep this person around for the long haul. S.
*Regulars on the forum may remember I have some issues with some members of the design profession. That said, I will be the first to admit it attracts some exceptional people, the kind I find it very rewarding to collaborate with. The ideal situation, and I'm sure it happens, is a cooperative effort towards a common goal, and hopefully all sides learn something from the other participants. I suppose that's all blather, but I try and go into each new situation with that attitude (and wide open eyes) and try and make it work. I've learned something from everyone I've ever worked with. Anyway, here is something to ponder; with new architects getting less and less practical (hands dirty) training, are they getting more open to input, or more defensive?
*Adrian I'm afraid that the younger crowd is even worst then the older guy's about closed minds. Some of the best architects that I have worked with were guy's who worked in the field going to school or father were builders and they worked with him. I've tried to stay out of this dicussion but I can't hold back any more. Architect today read about spec's in a book then want you to unstall/build. Had one guy who wanted to install a new metal tile on a custom house. Metal tiles aren't new and are a pretty straght forward job right? Wrong. The spec tiles were the most cheap poor excuse for a roofing tile I had ever seen. Had the architect come by with the owner to look at these thingd before they went up on the roof. Architect tells me that he has "faith" in these and if we can't install them he'll get someone to. The first wind sent thoose things fling across the town. The rep showed up and "showed us how to install them and the next storm his and mine again went sailing. Finally the owner sued the Architect who sued the Tile company and it was a mess. Month after we installed the things we went back and removed them and installed "real tiles" on the roof. Now when we work for a new architect I spend a lot of time going over what's there and tour the work site for problems.
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There seems to be a lot of hostility between trades persons and designers & architects. I've been told that in New Zealand designer/architects do very complex designs, with imagination gone wild; complex structures and forms that are not easy to figure out how to build, but..... here's the great part.... it's up to the contractor to figure out how it goes together, what the structural requirements are, what materials and assemblies meet code. Now that sounds like a great way to design to me!!! No more drawing all those details of proper flashing. No more code reviews and structural analysis. No more working drawings showing how things go together, let the dang contractor worry about it. I certainly don't want the liability.
Yes sir, think I'll head South to do my designing. After all, my work experience (in the trades, mind you), my college education in architecture, interior design, landscape design and art, my time as a county planner, my ten years in an architecture firm; why, they're not worth squat are they? I say the architects and designers need to rebel and call for a Kiwi system of liability and know how!
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The first 'big' job I took on after going out on my own was to build an addition to the back of a house that had been 'designed' by a well known architect as a
i favour
for his friend, my customer. Now this arch. had an ego bigger than the usual edifices he designed (libraries, city halls) and he didn't do a lot of residential stuff, so mostly his assistants looked after the drawings from his 'owner approved' sketches.
The assistants made a lot of errors, such as inside dimensions not adding up, closet too small to house the intended stacking washer/dryer etc. The owner and I sorted these out as I went along, so when it came to a certain framing detail I went ahead and built it the 'normal' way, assuming another 'design error' that left the space for a transom window too small. When the arch found out, he ripped my face off and told me to figure out how to frame it so that the window space wouldn't be compromised. If this were to happen tomorrow I would tell him six ways where to stuff it, but I was young and polite back then.
The framing had already been signed off by the building inspector, so after much thought I came up with an 'innovative' way to solve the problem, reframed it, and called for inspection. The inspector hated it and wouldn't approve it, but called in his superior, who said if the arch. submitted a drawing of my detail and had it approved by the engineering dep't it could stand.I then had to describe the detail over the phone to one of the arch's lackeys, he then drew it up and it was subsequently approved.
I learned a couple of valuable things from that experience. One was to never make assumptions with someone elses design, but more importantly, not much is really
i imposible
to build. . . difficult, convoluted, not cost effective to be sure, but seldom impossible. . . this really freed up my thinking when it came time to do my own designing.
I'm afraid I didn't do our side any favours by allowing the arch. to push me around, and get me do do his job. . ..the arrogant prick didn't even acknowledge any of it!!
-pm
*What might work is if there were one more person involved. Say the Architect more or less just "sketched", you know, light and form kind of things. Then he collaborated with another professional, kind of a functional engineer who would put these renderings into practical form for the builder. Each would draw on his own strengths to compliment the others. I wonder if good Architectural firms are kind of this way anyway? - yb
*Oh my GOD bob a architect and a engineer together?Get the Tums and the Pepto Bismol
*Wouldn't it be nice if everyone we ever had to deal with were as open-minded as say.....Adrian. Nevertheless, as a not-yet-registered architect I come to this discussion with some bias. I don't defend the architects mentioned in the posts here nor am I going to say anything about some of the barely competent "professional" builders I've had on some projects. Just don't paint us all with the same brush. Architects don't hold the copyright on being insecure and disfunctional adults. You find those in all walks of life. Just feel sorry for them because their mothers didn't love them enough as children.Can architects and builders learn from one another? Yes, it happens every day. But it takes an open mind and may demand that both sides eat a slice of humble pie every now and then. This is not something that will ever be taught in a school of architecture, however.
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and another thing.....
In today's construction/building industry architects and designers are expected, make that required to know about a great deal of all things construction. Mechanical systems can be very complex, electrical systems and lighting area no longer a couple of twist in fuses and a lamp holder in the middle of the ceiling, framing involves composite materails and/or metal, finishes and construction methods/layout have to comply with more stringent codes and regulations, sites are analyzed for solar performance and stormwater retention, etc. etc. The role of the architect has become increasingly complex, not to mention the legal woes that need to be taken into consideration (love those lawyers!). The trades are no different; the job of an HVAC contractor or a plumber, electrician , framer or finisher have all changed and become more demanding. But it is still the architect and the design/builders who must have a firm grasp of many concepts and techniques. Some architects really suck. But many of us are trying to get along with builders, do things so that it CAN be built, and make everyone happy. Most anything can be built though.
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Great discussion but it's all one sided to the architect. At least the architect - good or bad - has been exposed to the theory of construction, maybe not the practicalities. But what about the builder - where did he or she get trained? In Maryland, there is very little formalized public school training for the construction trades - most programs are shutting down for lack of students. Yet we are experiencing a brisk building market. Most of the builders I've met learned from someone else who learned from someone else who learned from someone else - and you know how a message gets screwed up when its passed around.
Most of the builder's yards are closing due to the expansion of Lowes, Home Depot and Hechingers - and rarely do you find a tech bulletin for a product in these outfits. And how many builders really read those bulletins? They just see a new product, know it can save time/money so they buy it and install it. That's why you can't find house wrap sealing tape in Maryland - nobody uses it because they never read the instructions!
*Ed I'm in Maryland too, and there is no school for builder's accept for the school of hard knocks. I learned from someone and he learned from someone and so on and so on. Now aday's if you have a truck and a hammer you too are a contractor. What, insurance and such? You don't need them just get yourself some cards printed up and go for it. I was over in Waldorf today and had to stop at Lowes. I was approached, twice from "contractors" who had a card and were looking for work. Until I asked for insurance. The guy at the contractors desk told me that MHIC was cracking down in the area over there. Hell if they arrest everone without a lic. then they"ll have to build a new huge prison to hold them. Personally if you want to make the big money(I'm still waiting) do it right.
*That's a very good point, Chad.I don't look to the architect to get the details right everytime; I'm not speaking for anyone else here, but I recognise they have an extremely complex job, and they are by the nature of their job generalists (what are they gonna do, four year apprenticeships in each of a dozen trades, plus arch. training?). They lead the way, we analyze the plans and pick up on the details, and if something is wrong, together we fix it. And if you don't pick up on problems in your own area, and address them before they get out of hand, well, shame on you.
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In the UK we have "Building Surveyors" who come from a building background and specialise more in working on existing buildings and have a vast knowledge of how the thing actually works. Halfway between the design side and the doing side, they bridge the gap and are great on maintenance and rebuilds etc - do you have them in the US?
Architects design a castle in the air and Building Surveyors work out how to do the foundations!
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I'm a superintendent for a firm who builds, owns, and operates assisted living facilities. My background is framing and finish carpentry, so I've had my share of laughs... (ie: headaches), figuring out how to make things work from the architectural sheets. My firm uses an in-house architect, and we're lucky to have someone with some building experience. The biggest difference I find in working with him is that he is very open to comments and suggestions from the superintendents. If I have a concern over a particular element of his drawings, I simply draw up a detail of the change I would like to make and include a list of advantages that could be attained. Sometimes he talks me out of it, but most of the time he agrees with me. I have to admit that this is an architect we've just brought on board. Our previous architect was not so easy to work with, and would take my requests and suggestions as a personal affront to his authority. It is a pleasure to work with a designer who has some first-hand knowledge of how things go together. And, hey, J Callahan, I'm teaching myself Autocad so I can better communicate with my architect!