I am in Rhode Island and I am wondering if a small deck can sit on the ground without having the posts set into the earth to below the frost line.. Can footer blocks be used for support. The height of the deck will only be about 27″ above grade.
Thanks
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Will the deck be attached to the house?
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Depends on how long you want it to stand.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
If you use those pivot hinges like you see on dock gang ways where the deck meets the house you should be OK
you can use the footer blocks... but the bottom of the block has to be buried 40" below finish grade.... if it's a big deck with a lot of point load , the footer block may not give enough bearing... but for most uses , they're fine
did you check out the footer tube/blocks that Quaker Lane Tool has ?
...........................the hinge idea is kinda novel though
That way you can crank it up, like a gate over a moat, if you don't want anyone to use the deck.
Lowering it could get interesting, though. Wear a hard hat, that should help.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
If the site soil is non-expansive (not clay) and non-frost-active (low silt content), and there is good drainage, then yes you can.
Frost heave can only occur when all of the following three conditions are present: 1) the soil
is frost susceptible (large silt fraction), 2) sufficient moisture is available (soil is above
approximately 80 percent saturation), and 3) sub-freezing temperatures are penetrating the soil. Removing one of these factors will negate the possibility of frost damage.
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
<<<<<
Frost heave can only occur when all of the following three conditions are present: 1) the soil<!----><!----><!---->
is frost susceptible (large silt fraction), 2) sufficient moisture is available (soil is above<!----><!---->
approximately 80 percent saturation), and 3) sub-freezing temperatures are penetrating the soil. Removing one of these factors will negate the possibility of frost damage. >>>>
he lives in North Kingston , RI
all three conditions exist in spades
he has to have the bottom of his footing at 40" below finish grade
or come up with an engineered solution that the BI will accept... that ain't happeningMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
all three conditions exist in spades
Each building site has its own characteristics, so unless you know his site you cannot make this generalization.
Soils often vary from lot to lot.
Soil saturation depends on guttering and grading.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
BS...... the whole state is 40 miles wide and 60 miles long
i guess i know what North Kingston glit looks like
it ain't the sand pits of south county
also... why don't you try driving across someone's lawn this time of year in NK
saturation is the general condition for our soils... they are very poorly drained
why don't you tell us about something you know about
grading & runoff..???.
not with these soils, highwater tables, and soil composition
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 2/9/2008 7:02 pm ET by MikeSmith
Yea.... I think your right. Who need footings to the frostline? Building codes??? Nah... We don't need those either... Besides - we can slap those fiber parged block right down on the dirt... OK we use a little gravel to level 'em up... That will keep the water away.
I think a more pertinent topic might be: Is this supposed to be a temp or permanent installation? Either that, or have the wheels been removed from the "house" yet?
You do have a point about temp or permanent. I think a lot of structure outside of the house are kind of temp. It just depends on how long you want them to last.
How fast do you want it to rot?
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
No offense to any one that wrote in, because most of it is valuable, but come on. First, we're talking about a small deck, which I'd assume no bigger than 12x20 with one side attached at the house, right? That's heavy but not a mammoth. I live in Central Alaska where the groung heaving is as inevitable as it is that it will be 50 below zero (it's 50 below right now).That heaving doesn't happen over night like zombies rising from the dead. You notice it and if you build the deck accordingly you can wotk with it. Use adjustable saddles in your concrete piers and make sur that you have that adjuster nut in the middle of the shank when you shore it up for the finish so you have about 4 inches drop or rise. And really if you're worried about what you can or can't do check with the borough/county, they love to tell yu what you can or can't do on your own lot..
p.s I have built hundreds of decks like I explained, infact that's how most decks up here are built, and have never ever had a problem. Even in #### ground..
good luck
You have totally different problems and methods in Alaska than in RI. I deal with same kinds of soils as Mike who lives and works in RI where this OP is asking about. I have seen poorly done decks rise up three inches in the first season and never return, and continue to jack themselves out of the ground until it does get re-done right.
The worst problem other than looking like some goofball idiot built it, is that once the outer perimeter rises, warter is directed TO the foundation of the house instead of AWAY from it.
If Alaskans have adjustable posts to run up on down on four inches every year because they have to, does not mean there is some good reason that builders in the lower 48 should take shortcuts and make their customers do the same when it is very easy to build it right in the first place by setting the footing for the post or pier below frost line
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
RIGHT? Who's to say what right or wrong is? Considering that I have had city inspections(that passed), using the technique I described, I'd say that it was "right". I will agree, a frost tube(sono) is the best solution, however friend, that's not what he was asking about. Also, The ground underneath the deck should always be graded away from the foundation, so your comment about water intrusion, to me, is rather null and void. That is, if you did your job "right".
have a good day
"RIGHT? Who's to say what right or wrong is? "
Are you trying to sound like a thirteen year old girl who wants to dress like Brittany and make out with boys in the dark?
"Considering that I have had city inspections(that passed"
That is mighty fine for Alaska, I supose, but won't work in New England - by a long shot - and this OP is in New England, not Alaska.
"The ground underneath the deck should always be graded away from the foundation, so your comment about water intrusion, to me, is rather null and void. "
If you think grading ground stops water from being a part of it or frost from heaving posts, you are lacking a part of your education in this business. Grading is only one small portion, and as has now been pointed out three or four times, the type of soil has far to to do with this answer.
believe it or not, there has been no personal atack intended here, just trying to clarify facts for the OP. If what you do there works there, fine, but different regions of the country have diffeernt methods for very good reasons
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
First how is"are you trying to sound like a thirteen year old girl who wants to dress like Brittany and make out with boys in the dark" not a personal attack.
And no a well graded ground won't stop water to the foundation, but will help.
And what, are we to believe, that the soil fairy gently deposits 3 inches of soil a year in Rhode Island backyards. The truth is, ground heaves than settles. In some places more than others. My suggestion,yes, a common practice EVERYWHERE(go to a hardware store tomorrow and you will indeed find the adjustable saddles that I had spoken of)(And I am sure you have them in RI, I checked), was merely a suggestion. I wasn't trying to flex or compete with someone as GREAT as you puffin.
Thanks
I don't know why you imagine any 3" of added soil every year.
Soils do settle again, but what you are certainly ignorant oif is that when posts are heaved up, they do NOT settle bacK down again. Of course, that misses the point that that I was making, that there is no good reason to subject a customer to the need to constantly fiddle with adjusting their porches up and down and up and down as the soils move it up and down and up and down...when all we have to do is built it right in the first place so that it soes not move.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
From the OP. ""I am in Rhode Island and I am wondering if a small deck can sit on the ground without having the posts set into the earth to below the frost line.. Can footer blocks be used for support."" He isn't using posts set into the ground. He is suggesting he wants to set the pier blocks on the ground is my understanding. What CaptainMayhem is suggesting are pier blocks with adjustable posts cast into them. Like this but with an adjustable post .
http://www.mutualmaterials.com/Homeowner_product.asp?pt_id=85&p_id=172 Frost heave may well occur but, as he says, the pier rises and falls with the ground, adjustment allows the actual deck to be re leveled.Edited 2/16/2008 10:56 am by dovetail97128
Edited 2/16/2008 10:58 am by dovetail97128
they 'd have to be substantially adjustable..
we have pretty lousey soils for drainage in our part of RI
also.. it's a deck, which means it's being built on disturbed earth.. so , besides the frost we also have a settlement issue
Captain Mayhem is in Alaska.. prhaps that is an Alaskan solution to permafrost
it certainly doesn't sound like an elegant solution for the lower 48
it sounds like one more addition fo the honey-do list:
"honey, you've been telling me for 3 months now that you were going to adjust the deck, and my martini keeps spilling, and little jake's soccer ball keeps rolling off"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
My post was only meant to clarify the situation as to what was being proposed, not to pick a horse in the race. But just to add to the mayhem I am sitting here looking at my own deck in the lower 48 that sits on pier blocks. Piers sit atop the ground ( sod removed) high clay content soil, plenty of winter moisture but little freeze to any depth (maybe 12" for extremely short periods of time). Been here for 15 years and is still sloped just the way I built it. Rises up with the winters ground saturation and swelling , drops again in the summer months. Not to say it would work in RI at all because of the soil freeze depth .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I understand all that.
My argument is one of why is cannot or should not be done, because it WILL result in unsatisfied customer and probably damage to the deck and the house. Most folk don't even change their own oil anymore. How many of them are likely to go working with an adjustable bracket to jack the end of their porch up and down a minimum of twice a year?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
of why is cannot or should not be done
Here's what has me scratching my head. Liability for a deck designer can be staggering, I was told (deck area / 2sf) *$5million for the life of the deck is not unreasonable.
So, maybe, on-grade footings might not be a bad idea; skipping PT lumber, too--limit the life of the deck.
Remember the OP's parameters--this thing is 27" above grade, a "four step" deck. If the footings are such a problem, just wait until the railings have to meet 4" sphere and lateral force requirements . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I'm be interested in seeing what these adjustable saddles look like. Could you please provide a link to a web page showing them? Does Simpson-Strongtie make them? I did some Googling and didn't find anything...
Yes, at http://www.strongtie.com
They are called J/JP Floor Beam Levelers. Those and some pier blocks.(the home depot here sells both, but I have also poured my own piers. I like them at least 12x12x6 with a cube of #5 bar. Drill the hole for the bolt after it's dry for best results(as opposed to trying to keep concrete out of a 1 inch hole)
Tried and true.
good luck
I see them. And you are right - I've seen them at HD or whatever.... I think they are normally used in craw spaces to level up old houses. I've never actually seen them used in new construction... That's OK - I'm here to pick up new ideas. From the web page: "Finish: None." blah blah blah. So, you paint them when you install them?
Here's the thing though. I don't live in RI (where the OP is - it was RI wasn't it?) , but I know it would be a cold day in he!! when any building inspector in my state would approve a footer setting above the frostline, and I'll bet your paycheck :-) that it is the same in RI - unless maybe they don't have to have deck inspections there.
That aside, I understand that in Alaska you all have a very harsh environment to deal with that requires very specific and innovative building methods. I've got a lot of respect for you people who have learned to make things work there. Heck - I've never seen 50 degrees below - nor will I ever... OTOH, If I were giving someone in Alaska advice on how to build a house, me being in central NC, I could just say: "Just dig down 12 inches to firm ground, pour your concrete and you're good". and also, "the only insulation you need in the walls is R-13, but I recommend a 18 seer high effiency AC unit"... or would I? So the question is not really could this guy float his deck footings, but is it the right thing to do in his situation?
This is just another "bless my hack" thread. Like another thread going right now where a guy is using soft antique face bricks for driveway paving. He was just looking for someone to agree with him. Heck - I think he even got 2 people to agree! Will it work? Sure? Will it be a temporary installation? Yes...
BTW - I'd like to build a garage out of green cheese. I have a lot of it left over. Will that work? Who has done it? Anyone who responds with a positive, also please tell me who is president and what day it is.... ;-)
Another BTW - Serious Q: In Alaska, do they float their entire houses on top of the permafrost? I guess they would have to? I'm guessing you all must use rebar out the a$$ in your concrete...
First, I agree thet I would prefer to go below the frost line in any given situation. Sometimes, that's not possible, or as in the RI fellows case, he just wanted to squeeze by apparently. Plus he implied "small deck". How small?? He never said so, we can take hypotheticals from there all day.
Any who.. In a situation where you can't dig in to the permafrost(here in AK)(which isn't all the time) What you'll see alot of is typar(groung cloth/tarps) with tons and tons of seriously compacted gravel over the top with piers sitting in their prospective places as per you building plans/pointloads. Works great if done right, however devastating if done wrong (there seems to be more of the latter around here.:)
The IRC specifically exempts freestanding decks from the requirement for frost footings. Footers for freestanding decks and small structures merely have to go down a minimum of 12 in. to undisturbed soil.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
The original thread didn't involve a free standing deck, but as for what you said, sure.All I ever wanted in life was an unfair advantage...