I just installed a track light for the DW..4′ with 3 heads..all bulbs were 50w r20 floods.
Total of 150w and it sucks. The porcelin single 60 watt was better.
So, I could use a 50w par20 or a 60w A19
What is better for task lighting?
This is all line voltage ( the low vlt halos were really pricy)
The cieling is low , 3 windows, but we need a shadowless glare free spot or flood..I dunno.
Any help? Whats the difference?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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If I am reading the photometric data sheets I have correctly, a 50W PAR20 lamp delivers 78.8 candlepower to the center of a circle 2.3 feet in diameter, while the numbers for the 50W R20 lamp are 36 and 2.7, respectively.
I figured your lamps were 4 feet away from your task surface.
Ah ha..Yup..the CP is way too low, and your 4' guesstimate is right on..
I could not locate the par20 at Lowes..of course, the help was braindead.
I wonder about the 60w A19? would that be a spot or a flood?
I used to think "lighting designers" were not really a pro..I now know differently.
Mucho thanks.
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Bulbs are designated by their basic shape an diameter (in 1/8" I think).An A bulb is the classic pear shape light bulb, no flood or spot.R are reflectivePar -parabolic reflector.G - globe as makeup lightsT is tube as as in flourscents.TL is tubular lense end that are used on some flashlights. But you wont' find those in household applications.Those are all that think of off hand.
so, I could toss in an "A" "normal" bulb NTE 60w?
I knew the Par part..was cornfused on the r and a issue
double mucho thanks..I gotta find me a 60w bulb..rare as hens teeth here in the house..I run 75 and 100 for most of the rated fixtures.
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hey bill right up to this point i was beliveing you
Par -parabolic reflector
par is the measure of the lights lumens as it compares to the sun (for eg)
parabolic reflectors are for the people with bright basements
PAR is an abbreviation for Parabolic Aluminized Reflector.
Edited 5/1/2005 9:10 pm ET by Stuart
and the number is eights of an inch. Sphere's 20 is 20/8 or 2.5" in diameter.
want to tlk about par again,you said it had to do with a parobolic reflector,i knew better but didnt have the info at hand welllll
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Envirolites give 100% PAR (Photosynthecially Active Rasiationsorry it wasnt you but stuart but i cant change who its too
Edited 6/5/2005 1:53 pm ET by bud
Edited 6/5/2005 1:54 pm ET by bud
Sorry, wrong.While PAR might stand for many things includingPrecison Approach Radar
Paris Airport Code
Participatory Action Research
Passive Autocatalytic Recombiner
Peak-to-Average Ratio
Phased Array Radar
Police Accident Report (NYPD)
Positive Acknowledgement with Retransmission
Procurement Action Repor
Proven Acceptable Range
Provider Application Router
Pulsed Acquisition RadarNone of them, including yours are appropriate to this dicussion.It was on the characteristics of light bulbs.And for that PAR does stand for Parabolic Alumized Reflector.http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/infosource/pub/home/Household_Lighting_Section3.cfm?attr=4
http://www.altmanltg.com/LampInformation.aspx?section=ServicesParts&selecteditem=tdSPLampInfo
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=howTo&p=BuyGuide/LightBulbBG.html&rn=RightNavFiles/rightNavHowTo"Parabolic Aluminized Reflector LampsParabolic aluminized reflector (PAR) lamps, typically used as spotlights or floodlights inside or outside homes, ...."
so what i pictured isnt a light bulb?
just yankin your chain i could really care less what par is but i knew it was explained to me at the lighting supply house so whatever
Edited 6/5/2005 2:39 pm ET by bud
however you guys solve your "illumination issues" - be sure you don't exceed the max wattage for the lamp fixture/base- those old style floor model halogen touchier lamps started more than a few fires and putting a higher wattage lamp in a fixture will eventually cause the fixture to fail and burn.
...and it sucks.
don't cha just hate it when that happens?... hang in there, the days are still getting longer - maybe check out the church for leftover alter candles....
Edited 4/30/2005 3:33 pm ET by David Doud
LOL...I am about to fire up the 500w quartz and tell her to wear sunglasses.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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I have a small stash (really) of 300 watt clear incadescent bulbs.
Love those puppies in the garage, no fooling around, get a couple of them going and it's like a bright sunny day. Even warms the place up a bit when it chilly.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I had a few of them yrs ago..surplus from the Uncle Sam I think..lasted forever till ya made a jiggle, then the element broke.
I just popped in 3 75w to see what gives..no joy.
Halogen , here I come.
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Before you go changing lamps check and see what the manufacturer allows, a 50PAR20 will be brighter, but it will also be much hotter, a 60w-A19 will be bright watt wise but it does not "direct" the light out of the fixture. Speaking of bright lamps a few years ago I went on a service call to check this old guys service, turned the lights on as I went down into his basement and started investigating the problem (water damage) as I was poking around I noticed the basement light was awful bright and I actually started to get a headache. I turned the lights off, waited a bit and checked the lamp, it was from some kind of old photocopy machine OMG was it bright!!
Another time I ran into another electrician friend of mine at the supply house who had a terrible sunburn on his face. I asked him what had happened and he said he had no clue he woke up like this. So I started asking him what he had been working on. Seems he was troubleshooting a Hot tub that had a UV light water purifier. In order to test the equipment he had bypassed the contact on the access panel so he could have the tub open and test it, he never thougt that the light was baking his face!!!
Usually when the basement lights are OMG bright, somebody's growing somethin' down there.
I used to have some really neat photofloods. Roofed my whole house - worked all night - under the light of just two of them.
Can you say REALLY, REALLY BRIGHT!
Talking about light bulbs... I just thought I'd share this.
We have 10 can lights with those ~4" 75w diameter spot (flood?) bulbs in them in the kitchen. Yea... they would definitely wake up in the morning. Only problem was that they seemed to burn out on a fairly regular basis...
So I got this great idea that I'd replace them with compact florescent which I could get somewhat cheaply from one of the membership stores (Sams). The package claimed that the CF bulb put out the same light as a 70w incandescent but used 1/5th the power or something like that and they are supposed to last something like 5 years. OK great - so over about a 9 month period I got em all swapped out.
Now, I'd estimate that, in reality they give off about 1/2 the amount of light... Barely adequate. I guess we can live with it, (now that I spent the money) but boy am I disappointed... another good idea gone bad :-( Matt
First are you sure that the fixture is rated for 75 watts.Some are, but very, very common is that they are limited to 60 watt R-bulbs. That would accelerated the burn out.And did you get reflective CFL's? (And yes they are available, but hard to find).Now I have done the same thing as you did and was surprised at the amount of light that I got. However, these are lights that are used in hallways and landings. However, I did have to adjust the socket down and the tip of the bulb is exposed.
Yes to all your Q's. Re the accelerated burnout, I'd estimate that we were getting about 9 months out of the incandescent... I think it is just because we use the kitchen so much :-) I have incandescent cans above the fireplace which get used for a few hours a day 3 days a week max - and can't ever remember replacing them... Those have 'eyeball' trim and we run them on a rheostat.
I installed CFs elsewhere in the house - standard type ceiling fixtures, and the amount of light is acceptable. Matt
I've used Panasonic CFL's with factory reflectors 28*28, meaning 28 watts at 2800 kelvin. They have worked very well for down reading light from better than 10' off the floor. Just got some Panasonic EFD23E28 CFL's. These really do seem to match or better the 100w they replaced. Now the warn up time is slower on the bigger 28's but it is kind of nice not to be hit with all that light at once (8 in the room). These did not come from the big box but from my local wholesaler. I also have a CFLR by Sylvania that has given good service, got it at the big box.
Generally, the "rating" of the CFLs is optimistic, and only applies when they're fully warmed up (if even then). My rule of thumb is to upsize one level (eg, 60 to 75) when replacing an incandescent with a CFL).Also, the direction that light is emitted varies with CFLs, and may not be compatible with a reflector. In particular, the ones that look like paperclips will put out more light to the side, while the spiral ones will distribute it more evenly -- closer to a regular incandescent.
Read the fine print on those CFL reflectors. Though they generate less heat than incandescents, they're far more sensitive to heat damage. I've had some that didn't last 5 weeks, let alone 5 years, because they're not supposed to be used in enclosed fixtures.
As for equivalent light output, flourescents have wierd spectral spikes that the human visual system seems to ignore. The same total number of photons may look different when they're not evenly distributed across wavelenghts.
-- J.S.
"As for equivalent light output, flourescents have wierd spectral spikes that the human visual system seems to ignore. The same total number of photons may look different when they're not evenly distributed across wavelenghts."That is true of the older single phosporus.But the delux tripple phosporus used in the higher CRI bulbs much better match human eye.Replace a cool white/warm white with an SPX series and although the lumens might be lower, the appear much brighter.AFAIK all CFL's are high CRI bulbs.
No kind of phosphor will ever get rid of the strong spectral lines of mercury at 546 nm and 436 nm. You're stuck with them if you want the UV to excite the phosphor. So far I've always been able to tell flourescent from incandescent by the light they produce.
-- J.S.
Man... If I ever get to attend a BT fest there is NO WAY I'm playing Trivial Pursuits with Bill Hartman, you, or some of the others here ;-)
Matt
The heat problem with incandescent replacement styles CFLs is due to the self-contained ballast. It generates a large part of the heat, and that is concentrated near the base. If the unit is confined in certain types of reflectors the heat can build up high enough to blow the internal fuse in the unit.The color spectrum of CFLs depends on how many different phosphors are used, and which ones. Most newer CFLs are multiphosphor and have a pretty decent color spectrum.The uniformity of the color spectrum is rated (rather crudely) by the CRI (color rendering index). The higher the CRI the better, and generally anything over 80-85 is sufficient for all but fairly color-sensitive applications. The best lights, such as the Ott, fairly accurately reproduce the spectrum of sunlight, but they're pretty expensive ($25-75 for the bulb alone).
Someone claimed a while back that Philips Marathon lamps are designed to minimize failure due to ballast overheating.About a year ago I saw a web site selling a CFL recessed light that had the ballast in the outside trim.
If you go to Cooper or Halo or the light you will find can light designed specifically for CFL's. The have have the ballast builtin and just the flourscent bulb changes.
Yeah but the Halo (and Juno?) lights require access to the can from above to change the ballast. I personally prefer the Marathon and TCP retrofits for incandescent cans for that reason, change the ballast from below (same time as lamp). I don't think the CFL-specific cans avoid the overheating problem AFAIK, it's intrinsic to the ballast getting hot and the can having small volume. Iris cans allow higher luminosity by having much bigger boxes (just talking ic-rated now). But you pay.....
Edited 5/3/2005 4:14 pm ET by Taylor
There are also Kino-Flo flourescents that are designed to work with film. Ordinary flourescents produce a strong green cast when photographed.
-- J.S.
A loose wire connection, either hot or neutral, can cause quick burnout of bulbs. I don't know the reason, but I'm sure someone else can explain it. Have you checked all the connections recently?
The average life of most bulbs is less than 2000 hours. That's a year at 8 hours/day, 5 days a week, and two weeks off for vacation. In many homes you have bulbs that are on for 12-16 hours a day, 7 days a week. These will last less than 6 months. If you have ten such bulbs, you'll be replacing one every 2-3 weeks.
Could your problem be down lights as a primary light source?
If the little puppies only throw light into a 3' diameter circle, then to light a room you're going to need an awful lot of them, no mater how bright they are individually.
Incandescent bulbs on the other hand throw light everywhere, it bounces off the ceiling and walls to light up the whole space.
Could your problem be down lights as a primary light source?
Ian's likely on to something here. I was taught, back i nthe paleolithic era I learned lighting design, that you never wanted to use a floodspot exclusively, except for exclusive effect.
So, the test would be to put a couple of table lamps to either side with a 60 or 75W lamp in each. If the task lighting then "works," you answer is in the total FC, not the fixture-specific FC. You might be able to use 3 - 35W minispots for task lighting if the "base" lighting is high enough.
Alternately, you'd need to haul off to a lighting dealer who has some of the extra-narrow spots (the kind one needs for art illumination with a high ceiling-mounted fixture).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
it is above a sewing table, cieling slopes from 8' to 6' over a 12' distance..track is at approx 7' from floor, 4' fron table top.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Blow the budget and buy Otts.
I'd try to solve this by applying some geometry. Your sewing table is 4ft x 3ft, say. How many 2ft diameter circles does it take to competely cover it with no gaps? This is the approximate number of down lights you need to light the surface assuming the light profile is even across the circle. If the centre 18 inches of the light cone is noticiably brighter than the fringe you'll need to do the calcs using 18in circles. Plus you'll need to light the table surrounds otherwise the table will be a pool of light and the sewer will be in the dark.
But perhaps the most important consideration is ensuring all the lights in the work area put out the same colour spectrum. My wife would complain bitterly if the shade of pink she wanted to use changed depending upon where she was in the work area. Do you need colour corrected lamps?
Lastly down lights can put out a fair amount of heat. Will the work area get too hot?
Thank you and ALL forthe points to ponder..
Yes, color is pretty important. What we'll do first is try the line voltage halogens ..I think.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Adomition, beckons predition to the eyes of the soul...or What?
Why look here?
Look up Ott lights. Like I said, they're really expensive, but they're what all the gonzo sewing folks use.
It is the "really expensive" part I have a hard time with..I got a house to rebuild..she'll be fine with candles and a bic lighter if it get's that bad..LOL
seriously, I can't justify the expense..I have a 4' shop lite and a 75 watt bulb in MY shop..and all my stuff eats fingers..sheesh, what a raw deal.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Adomition, beckons predition to the eyes of the soul...or What?
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Expense.Duane, If you haven't done anything yet, then try one more time for cheapo...Get some GE "Reveal" Bulbs. I got some at Lowes for only about a dollar more for four, than stadard bulbs anywhere.And man, do they make a difference. Perfect color lighting. Or close enough to perfect for the average eye. You can run all the numbers and name all the chemical equations... but in the end what really matters is what works well for most people. There may be an absolutely perfect number or chemical or wattage, or whatever. But you do not have to attain perfect before you reach a point where the vast majority of people can no longer tell any difference as you get better in quality. These are pretty much at that level. Few people can see any really markably noticeable difference above these.Works well for painting, drawing, sewing, etc. I also visit an artist's forum, and the subject of lighting has come up many times. Not just a few, but many of them have tried all the expensive lights, only to find out when their expensive light burned out, that these cheapo reveals were just as good....I use 100's. You may only want the 75's.Seriously, try them !!
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
I'll be on it this weekend..thanks.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Went to my nearest HD today, hoping to score a Ridgid miter saw stand on sale. No luck. They sold out quickly yesterday. 200 mile round trip for a nice lunch out with DW.
Looked in light bulbs, and saw both the flood (20 degree beamspread) and spot (8) versions of your 50W PAR20 lamps for sale. Each one $7 and change.
100 miles to Home Depot? Is it worth it? Where the heck are you? I must have 5 within 10 miles of here.
Get some line voltage heads for your track with receptacles for MR16 or GU10 halogen bulbs. I have 3 GU10's at 50W over the sink and they're so bright I put them on a dimmer. Three at 35W would've been plenty.
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