we have a great big oak tree right next to my garage… about 24″ – 30″ diameter
this winter it developed a deep vertical split from about 6′ off the ground all the way to the ground .. the split looks like it might be 2″ – 3 ” deep
what caused that ?
and what will happen to the oak ?… if i was guessing i’d say it split from the frost due to the unusual warm weather followed by this plunge into the deep freeze ..
but i’m really just guessing
Replies
Mike if there is a heavy branch above, or a Y in the tree it is common. Or, I believe it would be more about rain conditions... lack there of and then a hit of a ton of water that encouraged quick growth. Could also be a bug that got under the bark.
It is possible to save a tree with a split like that. 6ft is a long way, and who knows if it is worth it. Basically you have to relieve the pressure. You can drill straight through the tree and put in threaded rod, block or washer the ends and add nuts. The rod will not kill the tree even right in the center. With a split that long, you would need to do it every few feet.
You may want to ask in the garden/landscape forum, there may be arborists that follow in there.
You also could save it in drying racks after it goes through the portable sawmill.
-zen
Edited 1/23/2005 9:54 am ET by zendo
well.... last year we had 48" of rain ....and i think our normal average is 33"
and also last year i cut off a 8" diameter limb directly above this split..
if it ever stops snowing i'll go out and get some more info..
thanks for your insightsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Cutting that limb off should have helped, unless somehow it was a counter weight.
Take a look at all sides of the tree and imagine the pressure. I think you can wait til after the storm. lol
Its possible for pressure, or weight to be miscalculated. This is the type of thing that causes accidents. Even a guy that fells trees daily can mistake the pressure or weight of a section, when its cut it can spin out or fall in opposition to the plan. Tricky.
-zen
zen.. i bet that's it... i bet i overstressed one side by cutting that limb... hmmmm
maybe i can squeeze it back together by cutting thopposite one that's overhanging the garage.. but that means hiring one of the climbers.. i ain't gonna rope that one off...
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
...last year i cut off a 8" diameter limb directly above this split...
from this bit of information, I conclude that the split you see is a split of the bark, and not of the wood - (bark in this case being the outer layer of the tree to the cambium - could be a couple of inches on a mature tree with thick bark...)
the limb you cut was plumbed into the vascular system of the tree, a system which was thrown out of balance with the removal of the limb (think of a leak in a suction line) - the tree has not been able to make the adjustments to the tissue (not been able to dry out the tissue) to avoid cold temperature damage, the bark has split, probably over the course of couple of cold nights after a warm spell -
so... can it be saved? - - it'll save itself, in all likelyhood - oaks are tough - - trees don't 'heal', they 'compartmentalize' a wound (grow living tissue around a cut or split) - likely in a couple of years there will not be an obvious split in the bark - long skinny wounds compartmentalize well...your 8" limb cut is another story...that's a big wound to get grown over before decomposition (rot) sets in...'bout all you can do now is to fertilize, encourage vigor in the tree over the next 5 years or so to help it grow out of it...
your mistake to get in this situation -
timing: if you must make a cut that equals 25% of the diameter of the tree, do it in late winter (March or so) so there is a complete growing season for the tree to adjust...
technique: better yet, remove the limb over the course of three years or so...prune off a third of the canopy volume the first year, another third the next, and remove to the 'collar' next to the trunk the next - this gives the system time to adjust so it's not such a tramatic event....
"there's enough for everyone"
Don't know for sure if it can saved, but I like to think so.
I had a maple do the same thing on me this summer when a twisting type heavy wind shear came thru one day. Tree is right outside my shop and is also split from a crotch about 7' or 8' off the ground to near the ground. IMERc saw the thing when he was there.
I pondered the choice of removal vs attempted fix. Didn't figure I had a lot to loose by trying so ran some pieces of 1/2" all thread thru it. I figure it's stronger than before really. I'd rather have to split that trunk with an axe without the rods in it than with them there. Now I cross my fingers and see what happens.
Edit: I see yours is some larger. Mine is around an average 18"-20" trunk right now.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/23/2005 11:25 am ET by GOLDHILLER
I wonder if you'd have better luck asking the folks at "Over the Fence".
Surely there are some tree people there...
thanks to all of you... i'll ponder on this some more...
that 8" was dead for about half it's length , so i didn't hink it would be a bad idea to remove itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Put a picture up so we can see what your talking about.
The fertilize is good, also possible a spray schedule to keep the bugs out. Sounds like a nice big tree and to me- very valuable, very much worth extra effort to try and maintain. What kind of oak? Some put up with abuse better then others.
Had a willow oak at one point that got hit with lightning and within about a month the oak bores did it in. When the tree is stressed it's like a dinner is served sign to the bugs.
clay.. i'll see i f i can dig one up ... but i'm not going out there..
it's freezing out there.. i'm watchin ESPN waitin for the eccles / falcoonsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
David,
Do you think it might help, on a warmer day to paint, or seal the split? and or where he removed the limb before?
When I cut I usually try to get something on it as soon as possible.
-zen
...might help, on a warmer day to paint, or seal the split?...
as much as it seems it should help, scientific studies on the matter are unanimous that it is of no good effect...
on my part, something like this, I would mix up some latex paint along with a dash of copper sulfate and enough brown/black tint to come close to matching the bark color and paint away....won't do any harm...
main danger is the bark separating from the tree at the cambium layer around a signifigant part of the tree diameter...this size tree and this species, I don't think it much a danger...
the other thing that causes this sort of injury is called 'southwest' injury - - on a sub-zero day, sun in the early afternoon causes a rapid cycle of cold/hot/cold and the bark can't handle the expansion/contraction and splits - this is why often times you see trunks painted white in orchards (reflects sunlight), particularly peach trees which are notorious for such injury...
"there's enough for everyone"
it's definitely on the south side.....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
White reflective-
GC I used to work with found that out about a propane tank. He thought it was an eyesore, and painted it green to match the treeline. The propane company said he was lucky the thing didnt blow.... I never thought about it I guess.
Michael
So what are your plans for the wood? A table for Helen....or a new floor like Piff did with his tree outside his house?
Be well bro
aThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
good landscapers will keep stock oriented the same as it grew in the nursery -north side of a tree has different physiological characteristics from the south side -
you say the limb was partially dead - what were the symptoms? may be other problems going on....
"there's enough for everyone"
this might be a delay kill.....
the limb was dead for about it's upper third....
2d major limb with the same symptoms... there's another one that's also dead (#3 )
this tree was about 4' from the garage foundation ( 4' dig ) when we dug the foundation in '84...
this is the one that overhangs the garage
i'm pretty sure the species is white oak.. nice small tight dark green oak leaf
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Ooooops...I pee'd on that tree in August...sorry dude.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Every human choice bows like a slave in submission to the absolute creative will, yet this does not deprive us of freedom or fear of taking responsibility for what we choose
( Mansavi V,(3097-98_)))))>
figgers ...
hey, i went out and took some pics of said oak.. natch.. i left the camera on the job...
anyways.... there is one split on the north side that runs from the ground up about 10'
this split is at least 6" deep .. i stuck a butter knife in as a depth gauge
on the southt side there are two splits.. one facing southeast and starts at the ground.. and runs up about 10' but is interrupted by that 8" limb node i cut off
the other one is about 10" west of that (facing south ) and runs from the ground up about 5'.. all of them are about 6" deep....
so...????????Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I have 2 questions for ya Mike, no make that 3.
WHAT were you doin out there with a butter knife?
Isn't this the tree you were lamenting about cutting down a while ago?
Did you actually SEE Duane wizz on your tree??
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
did he see me whizz on it?.. Hell, who ya think was holding it? My hands were full of bottles..{G}
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Every human choice bows like a slave in submission to the absolute creative will, yet this does not deprive us of freedom or fear of taking responsibility for what we choose
( Mansavi V,(3097-98_)))))>
eeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Hey..it's YOUR tag line..Hmmmm? MY own, Senastion? where's THAT goin?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Every human choice bows like a slave in submission to the absolute creative will, yet this does not deprive us of freedom or fear of taking responsibility for what we choose
( Mansavi V,(3097-98_)))))>
while you're checkin DNA for Sphere or calling the arborist can I ask Andy what the latest chapter in the landscaper / copperbeech saga is?
an elaborate pantomime of excuse me to you Mike
john ... i missed that one...can you fill in the background ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Oh hey Mike tried to get Andy's name on my reply but wouldn't register
seems like maybe a month ago he was having his lot/yard landscaped by some high falluting outfit from the big city ( maybe his wife works w/ this guys wife ) and the landscaper mishandled the rootball on his beech tree and it was dying and the landscaper was billing him for the project as if all went well w/ the tree transplant
transplant was a $5,000 plus item on the billing as I remember
think resident counsel Shaglaw (sp?) was in on negotiations
pretty popular and heated discussion and hoping Andy got some resolution there
cheers John
Ya, what was the final on that deal anyhow?
be perservering"Geodesics have an infinite proliferation of possible branches, at the whim of subatomic indeterminism.",Jack Williamson, The Legion of Time
is mike the only one out on Andy's Copper Beech debacle?I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Jaw with my attorney and good friend....member his name by chance?
Starts with a .....uhhhhh.......Shgggggggggggggggg uhhhhhh.
See ya in Ohio but be careful what you say to me.... I have a real good lawyer : )
Be careful homes
####The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
here's some pics of the culprit...
first .. part of the south split and the north split
View Image
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/25/2005 11:34 pm ET by Mike Smith
and the limb that was cut last fall..
also a long view looking southwest...
View Image
and a long view looking northeast
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/25/2005 11:38 pm ET by Mike Smith
Mike,
Until I saw that huge crown I was going to tell you that the splits look a lot like what lightning did to a gum out front here. Which is still doing fine, amazingly enough, 3 yrs later. But we are in a forest, no crowns on the trees like yours has.
As I understand it, when you get too much weight on top hanging off, something's gonna give. Yours gave. Through bolting will maybe work for awhile. I attended a seminar recently about tree trimming. Learned a lot about what people generally do wrong. Pretty sure he'd have considered your tree a great example.
Good luck. Need any firewood?PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
tom.... yes.. it looks like a good exuse to cut that sucker down..
it's one of only two that could actually fall on the house in a hurricane .. so, our loss of shade will be a gain in security...
the pruning was only dead branches .. so i think this probably goes back to the root pruning we did when we dub the garage foundation 20 years ago..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If you like the tree, which I do I would spend a little and let the tree tell you if it is over.
A deep root feed with some high nitrogen fertilizer around the perimeter and perhaps a spray for bugs and you get through the next year you'll be good for the next 20. The good thing about the oaks are they are less likely to blow over then some. The split looks more cosmetic then structural and that tree doesn't look out of balance to the point of danger.
Got a old electricians long auger or 2" or there about. Drill the perimeter of the tree/canopy drip edge and load the holes with good fertilizer. Yes once the ground thaws. Worst case you do that and it dies back. Then you cut it.
You know better then anyone the value of the tree. Or you could start over, take it out grind out the stump and plant again. But then it'll be like 10 or 15 before you get the benefit.
hello Mike...I'm freshly back from the Hort Society's winter meeting and have inspected your pictures...
in my experience, there are two possibilities (Duane pee is not considered...) - if you had observed this after a violent summer storm, I'd say the 'shake' was caused by the twisting of the crown in a high wind rotating the trunk - - but since this is a recent injury, I think the only possibility is freezing - - the tree was unable to modify the sapwood (removing water, drying tissue) in a timely fashion and when it froze the trunk was split by the expanding water...
why? - in all likelyhood the pruning cut compromised the tree's plumbing - that's a big cut, and the tree was already struggling from the root damage from the garage project...
iffen I wuz u...most likely the tree will survive in the short term, if you want to do something, get some bark colored caulk and seal up the splits (don't fill up the split, just a superficial seal - latex caulk), it just might keep the injury from getting larger - - I'd get another tree planted in a strategic location with the expectation this one will decline over the next 10 years and become unsound and at some point too dangerous to remain - in the short term, I don't believe it to be anymore a menace than it has been - how much do you value the shade?...
hey - free advice, no charge for my estimate!...don't make it worse by laying the tree down on the garage! ha- ha-ha....
"there's enough for everyone"
" - I'd get another tree planted in a strategic location"I have two trees that will probably need to next few years.One is an ash and one major limb started losing leafs early this year and there is a real problem in this area with ashes getting dieased and declining. I will have to see what shape it is this spring.The other is a river birch that has got the h*ll beat out of it in storms. About 2 years ago lost about 1/4 of it in an ice storm and one major leader is split like Mikes. My question is how close can I plant replacement trees. My thought was to let them grow for 2 or 3 years. Enough to overcome the transplant shock and get established and them remove the old trees.I want to put them within the drip line, but they will be on the south/south-west side so they will get light.
bad news is,,,all the ash's are headed for extinction.I'll let David tell ya the rest.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" Let behind the eyes, that which one talks"
Rumi....
Yes, I know.But I don't know if it has 1 year or 5 years left.
My question is how close can I plant replacement trees. My thought was to let them grow for 2 or 3 years. Enough to overcome the transplant shock and get established and them remove the old trees.
well, it depends....are you considering replacing with the same species?
The river birch is a short lived tree that tends to naturally occur in close association with others of its own species - I think you could chunk in another close to the original and expect good results - - prepare a generous diameter hole cleaned of the roots of the existing tree - -
the ash is a little more uncertain...there are lots of species of ash which reside at various levels of the succession ladder - - many of the ash selections within the landscape trade tend to be species in the middle of the succession hierarchy - relatively fast growing, but shorter lived - -
as a general rule, you can plant a species higher on the succession ladder within the influence of a species lower and expect satisfactory results - - in this case, something like a maple or oak (you are midwestern, aren't you? - KC maybe?) and expect good performance - - again, prepare a planting hole of generous diameter, removing the roots of the existing tree - in general, the strategy of existing specimans is to stress competitors by out competing them for sunlight and moisture, in this case if you don't let the new plant dry out, the light shade that ash provides will allow for a new speciman to become established ...
clarification: when I talk about generous diameter planting holes, I don't necessarilly mean deep ones - the majority of tree roots are in the top foot of soil - be careful with preparing a big hole and then have your new speciman settle so as to be too deep - if that doesn't kill it, you can expect unsatifactory performance....it needs to end up at the same level in relation to the ground as it grew in the nursery...
"there's enough for everyone"
Edited 1/27/2005 4:17 pm ET by David Doud
Yes, I am in the KC area.There is a local radio show that has a number of gardening people of all stripes on it. Because of the ash problems they have outright no longer recommend it. 5 years ago one of their favorit trees was the autum purple ash.No I won't be replacing either with same species.The one by the river birch I want to put next to the lake. But I have to do some probing to find if there is enough dirt. If there is maybe an oak or cypress. I need to check with some of the local people to see what will work there.
Geeze, who woulda thought you could get that clean of a cut from a butter knife?! ;)
Gonna get the broom-on-a-pole out and get that snow off the panels? Are those solar water heating panels? (as hinted at in a different thread).
Seems like its been at least a couple days since I gave Sphere a hard time about something, but I think someone beat me to it.
My wag would be that its better to have a split in winter rather than summer. The tree is basically dormant, so the wound isn't as critical as it would be if it was fully leaf'ed out. There used to be a plant-cement that was used to fill cracks... I can't think of the name of it off the top of my head. Your local extension office might have some helpful information. Is the "over the fence" forum plant folks? They might have good suggestions.
jt8
The two most abundant things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
john .. as soon as the sun came out the snow was gone on the collectors..
they're hot air collectors
when the snow melts in the yard, i'll take a long look at the rest of the oaks to see if they have any splitsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
as soon as the sun came out the snow was gone on the collectors..
they're hot air collectors
Hmm.. hot air collectors. Sounds interesting. Is that a cross between solar water heaters and a solarium? Does it just blow air into the house when it gets over a certain temp? Or is it circulating the warm air through pipes and such...
jt8
The two most abundant things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Edited 1/27/2005 9:36 am ET by JohnT8
it blows hot air into an 8x8x6' high rock storage bin in the basement..
that's a 10' x 36' collector
View Image
a seperate distribution blower moves the air into the house when a thermostat calls
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/27/2005 12:39 pm ET by Mike Smith
it blows hot air into an 8x8x6' high rock storage bin in the basement..
that's a 10' x 36' collector
Well, since your original question has been covered... I'll continue to hijack the thread.
Is your warm-air collector something new? Something you came up with yourself? Don't know that I've ever seen this variation. Info, man, info.
Seems like glycol with a water tank would hold more heat... Was the solar warm-air system cheaper/less-maint. than a solar water one? Certainly would be less worry about leak damage. Kinda like adding an active element to "passive solar" technique with a nearly 400cuft battery in the basement (which would mean you wouldn't have to design a lot of thermal mass into the regular living space).
jt8
The two most abundant things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Edited 1/27/2005 3:04 pm ET by JohnT8
Not sure what KIND of oak it is..Red, White, Pin, Willow, Chestnut,..there are SO many. I recall (sort of) that it may very well be a large Red Oak, Or Pin (type) oak. Needa leaf or bud scar or pic of the bark to tell..Any way, some OAks are voluminous drinkers..Reds esp. It most likely is that ya had a warm wet fall, followed by a hard freeze..water expanded , cambium expanded, bark did not.If ya really wanna save it, I'd go local..call a "certified" arborist..get his two cents. but if it was me? I'd slobber on some roof pitch, and fuggetabudit..till I need fire wood.Watch the leafing out this spring, see if she looks right with all the similar trees..or is she stressed..was it a mast yr? (did ya have acorns?) that drains the resources stored in the root sys...a lot of juice going up and down in that layer just below the bark.Y a also could have had a high wind shake develop, from the storms last summer/fall?Maybe just a canopy trim would help with that.....I'm just shootin from past exp. I think DDoud is the expert..Be that as it may, there is no telling what Mother Nature has in mind, so, insure the tree, and the garage. Heavily.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Every human choice bows like a slave in submission to the absolute creative will, yet this does not deprive us of freedom or fear of taking responsibility for what we choose
( Mansavi V,(3097-98_)))))>
My yard has hundreds of trees......two large ones that are close to my house have splits in them, BIG splits
....the 90 ft hickory is 8 ft from the house eave line and has a 10' tall split big enough that the cats sleep in it. It has been there since we built in 1972.
Local landscape man counciled me when I wanted to cut it down when building.
He said....Live hollow trees are stronger than you think....they are esentially a thick walled pipe with a segment missing...still quite strong and viable. Leave it alone, it will manage itself very well. The edges of the split will roll in and heal over, making it even stronger.
Trim the big dead limbs from over the house as time pases. The decision to fell the tree would be marked by its failure to leaf out in the spring... or if the hollow base ruptures, indicating no strength.... and at that point should be removed.
Like wise there is a 70 ft red oak with a 25 ft split that has stood since we arrived. It has been home to several honeybees nests and for two summers a home to giant hornets. Same criteria.
Give that oak some time....it will probably outlive you!
..............Iron Helix
Don't use anything with copper in it to paint over a fresh wound on a tree. Copper sulphate is used to kill roots in sewer lines. If it's in the cambium layer, it can be transferred to other areas of the tree since the cambium is the living tissue. Painting over a wound is not done these days. The tree will seal itself off faster if you leave it alone, just don't cut limbs off flush to the trunk. The branch yoke is to be left on and this is located just outside of the trunk, on the limb. If you use anything with copper in it to seal a tree and end up harvesting the lumber, it will be stained by the chemicals. The 'southwest' injury is usually called sunscald. The tree gets really cold and then direct sunlight heats the tree on the side where it is lit. Since the damage is on the north side too, I kinda doubt that this is the cause. Also, if you have any leaves from this tree, it can be identified. Doesn't look much like a red oak, though. If it has larger pointed leaves with pointed tips, it may be red, if the tips are rounded, it's probably white oak. Then, there are the other variants. I would think you could ID it online by description and leaves.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 1/27/2005 2:42 pm ET by highfigh
Mike,
What kinda oak? white or red?
you won't want to use bolts in a white oak unless they are stainess steel, the tannic acids that are in a white oak will cause the bolt to rot as well as the wood itself to decay..
eventually the tree will rot at the split the question is simply one of when,, it may be decades or even more from now depending on factors such as location of split and exposure..
you may well have bark cover the split (a lot of trees heal wounds and recover for a long time with damage like that, although some don't).