In reading other posts, it seems that a decent rate for a top carpenter in an urban market is $30-35 per hour. I am trying to reconcile this number with the billable rates I am getting from my window contractor quotes, namely from $85 to $110 per hour. I fully understand that the base rate needs to be marked up for fringes/benefits, overhead and profit…but would this take a $35 rate up to the neighborhood of $90/hr? This is more than 100% markup.
Also, would these marked up rates apply only for on the job time, or would it be usual and customary to apply these to travel time as well?
This is for carpenters who can do rough, finish carpentry and drywall.
Thank you.
Replies
I would like to meet the carpenter that gets 30-35 an hour from a window replacement contractor.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I would like to meet the carpenter that gets 30-35 an hour from a window replacement contractor.
Hey get in line and apply like the rest of us!
Doug
I would guess that the crew head of the various rpl. window co.s here would be getting 15 with some minimal bene's if he/she was lucky.
The rate quoted by the o.p. would be well above residential union. I can only imagine there was some guessing on cost of window and then the labor charge pulled out of there with no knowledge of markup/oh-p, etc.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I am just trying to understand how a labor rate of maybe $20/hr, times maybe 8 to 12 hours per window opening, plus $300 for the actual window adds up to quotes I am getting to the tune of $1200 to $2500. Given what I have seen here, it appears that the direct costs of labor and material might add up to $500...this implies that the contractor's overhead and profit is 200% to get to a total of $1500. That sounds like an outrageous factor to me (a layperson). Bottom line, I'd just want some idea that I'm not being taken. If these figures are reasonable an customary and justifiable, I'd be OK with paying them...I just have no baseline to work from, other than direct costs. Thansk for your inputs.
I read your other post. How about some details on the wall. Bearing wall? First floor of a two story house? There are alot of things that might count for that price.
Other reasons for a high price, your not talking to the town hack, he'll still be around in a year should something go wrong, he's good enough that on a year nothing will be wrong.
I'm sure you'll find the job cheaper, but I wouldnt always take the lowest bid.
BTW I dont go anywhere for under $100 and my usual company rate is at least $50/hr depending on the job.
98........
How do you get the window cost?
Is this a subcontractor or the window manufacturer employee?
Here, I can get a replacement window that is a bit more than what a new construction window would be-it's sized to fit the opening, doesn't need a complete tearout, and as such, my supplier knows they can get a bit more (for probably less-considering what most vinyl replacements are). And the labor would be lower to swap it out than a new complete window (frame etc) install (just pulling the sash and installing the insert).
However, using the number of a new complete window install as a start, and wanting to be less than that to hook the customer, I should come down maybe 20% from that cost of a new complete window install. I make a killing and the customer seemingly makes a savings of 15-20%.
I don't work that way. My replacement might be 1/2 the new window install. Since you didn't fill in your profile and I'm not searching zip codes (if that's what your screen name is) I can't comment on any price given. Add to that the type of replacement. For instance-a marvin sized to fit could easily be twice what a cheap #### vinyl is. And I know from pricing Andersen Renewal's unit to me (no install) that they are high.
How bout you fill in the blanks about location and make/model of the replacement-size too.........and degree of difficulty-where it's going, how much crap you've got in the way etc.
A recent Marvin Designer series dbl custom fixed casement 3-6 x 5-6 remove old, install new with new trim was 1250.00 window/500.00 install. One stinkin window-1750.00. Customer happy, me not sad. But, there's your 1750.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Sorry for not including some additional information...I am assuming that cutting and finishing a new opening in an exterior gable end bearing wall, one story ranch, easy access from ground level, no utilities, cedar lap siding would take about 8 to 12 hours labor. Any different opinions on that figure? Yes, it will require new header and framing. Seattle WA area, so rates are higher than most. Again, I am getting quotes from $1200 to $2500 per opening/window (Milgard classic vinyl). My math can't get me from $30/hr to $1200-2500 per opening. Home depot said they'd order the Milgard window and their price was around $300. Say $350 to be safe. Clearly there are some markups involved that are bigger than I may appreciate. It's hard to be an informed buyer when so much of the information is not available to the public. I just want to have some feeling that I am paying a fair price to both parties.
I don't know WA labor rates I'm in the mid-atlantic area, if you say 12 hours I'm gonna figure 2 guys at a full 8 hours cause they aren't going to another job for 2 hours. With a 30% markup on the window and 40 bucks an hour. Add in silicone and misc items and 1200 doesn't sound unreasonable based on your numbers... But around these parts $75.00 - $100.00 per hour / man is not unheard of.
I'm sorry, I didn't equate this post with some other one on the board where you mentioned NEW OPENING. I assumed window replacement.
Same thing goes tho, I wouldn't give a price over the phone nor anything worth using w/o seeing the job. I can only assume and that's not what your after. I do know this, a new opening has a whole lot of variables to make it look good and last a lifetime. Consider also that a half day is probably billed out as a whole, so is travel included in the charge-can't expect them to get there for nothing. Disposal etc all figure into the cost.
Best of luck.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
about 10 years ago was the last time we did JUST window replacement ( new prime windows... as opposed to replacement windows )
we removed the old steel-framed single glazed WWII-era casements and installed new Andersen 400 series DH in the same brick veneer openings, new casing in & out...
the average per window then was over $1200 / window ( windows and openings were the same on that job ).. today ..... who knows
my window replacement guy charges me over $500 for replacement windows... nice quality.. but the old jambs and casing remainMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, for 5 bills per replacement window, I'll come to RI and do them for you... I'll even supply the windows!
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
you'll do anything to get back to rhode island , huh....
gonna wait until the stripers are running ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Holy smokes! I thought you typed "strippers" for a second!
I was just thinking about that this morning, how funny. Wondering when me and eddie make it back if I can talk bruce into some fishing.
Heck, you take me fishing AND feed me well, I will work for real cheap!
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Marvin does not have anything in their line that is referred to as a "Designer Series". They do however customize any window or door they make...
thanks, pella in the recesses of the mind.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Thought so.......... no harm no foul.... There are windows and then there are MARVINS
I agree once you go marvin you never want to go back
98133
are you an engineer?
There have been a few "issues" that contractors have with engineers. (my dad used to be one) Things like tearing apart a bid. Questioning materials. Looking over a shoulder at install.
Maybe one of your quotes got a bad feeling.
Get a few more. When you get to 17 ...........stop. Pick one
Get a few more. When you get to 17 ...........stop. Pick one
Scrapr thats funny!
98133
Seriously, could you take a few pictures of the house and the window locations so that we could get a better feel for the work? I'm getting currious now.
Doug
Yeah. Guilty as charged. Not as finicky as you imply, but I do have a tendency to want to know the underlying numbers. I'm really not hard to work with, but who knows what kind of first impression I might have made!
Let me ask the question another way...I have three bids for the same work: 1000 per opening, 1300 per opening and 2500 per opening. Scope of work described in earlier post (new openings, exter cedar lap beveled siding, interior drywall, easy access from both inside and outside, sheetrock casings, wood sill, Milgard Classic vinyl, 32 wide by 60 High, no utilitiy encumberances).
Does the high bid seem overly high or is the low bid overly low? As I have said before, I don't want to overpay OR underpay. I actually am the kind of person who is willing to pay more, if I have an idea of what I am getting for the extra money.
Thanks again.
Did all three come highly recommended? in other words, a direct referral from someone that knows what their talking about or a close friend that wouldn't bull #### you because they don't know any better?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Sorry I was thinking you were getting a wood window. It still would be over 1300 but not as high as 25
I am assuming that cutting and finishing a new opening in an exterior gable end bearing wall, one story ranch, easy access from ground level, no utilities, cedar lap siding would take about 8 to 12 hours labor. Any different opinions on that figure? Yes, it will require new header and framing.
8 feet off of ground level (i.e. not a second story window and no scaffolding or manlift needed). We are talking three new openings in total, each 32W by 60 H. No plumbing or electrical encumberances. Wood lap siding, no brick work
[Existing] Walls not opened up. . . but it appears there is no plumbing or electrical to deal with. (ed: HAH!)
Replace/refinish sheetrock - Yes. Painting - No.... No mouldings....ready to paint finish.
Home depot said they'd order the Milgard window and their price was around $300.
Some comments from the sales reps indicate a 2 person crew can do two new openings per day, which I infer means that it takes about 8 labor hours per opening.
Given that scope of work, I'ld say that $2500/opening is about right. It could done a lot cheaper, but the only expenses would be 1/2 cup chainsaw gas and 3 cans of Great Stuf (|:>)
Here's some of what you're missing:
Day one:
Most, if not all the DW has to come off each wall that's geting a new opening.
Then the mess cleaned up
Protect landscaping?
Carefully remove existing cedar siding in a manner that will allow it to be reinstalled.
Then cleaned up and stored.
Day two:
Each wall must be reframed in situ.
Then the mess cleaned up
Some kind of staging must be used, at least on the outside.
Insert new window in new framed opening (15 man minutes)
Replace/repair housewrap
Flash and seal windows.
Clean up
Day three:
Replace old cedar siding, jigsaw puzzle style.
cleanup
Day four (maybe concurrent with day 3
Replace DW, mud and tape.
cleanup
Day five (maybe Day 4 afternoon):
Sand and mud
cleanup
Day five (maybe afternoon, maybe Day six morning)
sand and mud
cleanup
Day six (maybe afternoon)
sand
cleanup
Some of those Days are for two man crews and others are one man, some are 8 hour days and some are less, but all but the DW days will be charged at 8 hrs. The drywaller may be able to get two coats of mud applied in one day.
In the verbal picture you painted, I'm seeing about 7-8 man days labor. This is a remodel, doncha know? Rebuilding 2 or 3 load bearing walls.
My guesstimate:
60 hours labor = $1800
Material = $575
Per window!
YMMVSamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Thanks for your detailed breakout. This is really useful, as it tells me that the drywall work (the follow up visits) may be adding more cost that it is worth. I can probably live with having the contractor lay the first coat of mud and let me (or others) do the rest.
I am intrigued by your comment about removing the siding...I have to admit that I thought that they would just mark the 4 corners of the opening and then use a sawzall to cut the opening. Can you clue me in on why siding has to be removed. This also presumes that they would go from the inside cutting away sheetrock to expose the area where the new header and sill will go. Or is removing siding more expedient than making a bigger opening in the sheetrock?
To All: I really do appreciate all the comments. However, please excuse my ignorance of some of the details. I can only tell you what I "know" and hope that someone sets me straight if I am "wrong". Thanks for setting me straight and making me a more educated consumer.
The 3 quotes I have are: one from a personal referral and the other two are apparently well regarded on AngiesList.com and the Puget Sound Consumer Checkbook magazine.
98... you're in trouble... it's a question of you don't know what you don't know.. and look where that got Rummy
modern primary windows ( as opposed to replacement windows ) have nailing fins on the side and top.. and some system of flashing apron on the bottom
ie: the window is bigger than the window frame... and bigger than the rough opening
what did you have in mind.. a nice square , perfect hole , neatly cut.. then slip the window in and caulk it ?
you have to break back the siding with an eye to replacing it..
you have to install, shim, square and level the window.. and make sure it operates and closes the way it is intended to..
lordy.. how many windows have we seen that will never operate correctly because they were installed wrong ?
then you have to flash the window... install trim ( casing and sill ) or NO TRIM ( part of the spec ).... then replace the siding, caulk, and paint...
that's the outside.. then you have extension jambs, insulating around the unit , and sill & casing on the inside.. not to mention drywall/ plaster
or you can cut neat square holes in your house and have replacement windows installed at 1/3 the cost
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 2/24/2007 4:44 pm ET by MikeSmith
and "Angie's List " ... please...
have mercyMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You've mentioned something I had not considered...Are you saying that there are 2 ways of installing a window in a NEW opening? "New construction" and "replacement" methods? I was under the impression that a new opening meant "new construction" method of installation.
At least one of the contractors I have a quote from said they would not have to remove siding to the do the new opening...so is this an unprofessional method for them to use?
As for AngiesList, I agree that it is unscientific and possibly misleading. Do you know of any other commonly available sources for checking up on a contractor's performance? I'd be glad to dump AngiesList if you have something better!
You've mentioned something I had not considered...Are you saying that there are 2 ways of installing a window in a NEW opening? "New construction" and "replacement" methods? I was under the impression that a new opening meant "new construction" method of installation.
Hey, I'll do a replacement window for $500. I alrready gots duh chainsaw and dares tree cans o GreatStuf left over form duh last one I done.
Hey DOc, can ya get me any of dem good. . .yahno?. . .Piiils?SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Do you know of any other commonly available sources for checking up on a contractor's performance?
REFERENCES!..........ask for them and check them...meaning call the reference and go see the work....of course you should ask for references of other similiar type work.
At least one of the contractors I have a quote from said they would not have to remove siding to the do the new opening...so is this an unprofessional method for them to use?
How do you make an opening for a window W/OUT removing the siding??
Geoff
How do you make an opening for a window W/OUT removing the siding??
Answer: I believe they said they would use a sawzall to cut the opening...it wasclear though that they did not plan to remove siding board by board to reveal extra area for flashing.
<<It's probably in the 3 and 1/6 " range. So, we'll work from that and see about cutting a hole in the joist. Honestly, remodeling with existing work in place is no fun at all! I don't see how you guys do it job after job!!>>
couldn't resist posting this comment from another thread, I think this guy understands there's a lot that goes into remodeling work, no matter how simple the home owner thinks the work is.....and we can't spend all day telling you how we're going to do our job, right down to the last detail, since for the most part you may not even understand what we'd be telling you.
You should choose your contractor based on trust....if you don't trust him,don't hire him... first impressions are important ......and so are references!
Geoff
A complaint that I've often had with the consumers of contractor services is that they think it is easy because we make it look so. Truth is that there is a lot of experience and knowledge in what we do well and so much is done or accounted for that just isn't obvious to the standard onlooker.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete, Well said!!
Geoff
The wall as a whole is a structural unit. Modifying it means having to maintain it's designed dtrength. Every element; DW, Siding, Stud, Block, etc, is contributing to it's strength.
I am intrigued by your comment about removing the siding...I have to admit that I thought that they would just mark the 4 corners of the opening and then use a sawzall to cut the opening. Can you clue me in on why siding has to be removed.
Details.
Underneath the cedar is a housewrap that protects the house structure from water. The siding itself is merely armor plating over the housewrap. There may (IMO, should,) be sheathing underneath the housewrap.
Because the housewrap has to shed water, every opening needs flashing to maintain the integrity of the watershed. This requires, oh. . .24" clearance around the opening. After cutting a pilot hole about 6" smaller than the window,all of the siding pieces that are within 24" will be removed before the hole is sized out to the window.
This also presumes that they would go from the inside cutting away sheetrock to expose the area where the new header and sill will go. Or is removing siding more expedient than making a bigger opening in the sheetrock?
Maintain the weather tightness untill the last minute.
Also, unless you are locating the window according to the unseen stud layout, as opposed to esthetical placement, some of the existing underlying structure must be cut and relocated. The mechanical energy transmitted to the the wall during this will pop DW right off the nails. Might as well plan on doing something about that no matter what else happens.
All in all, I think you will have a better construction experience by removing a verticle section of DW 2N feet wide 2 feet past the opening. With 32" windows, that's 8'. Exactly 2 sheets of DW.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Thanks for your description of the reasons for removing siding beyond the rough opening. Makes sense to me, now that you've laid it out. I need to contact the contractors to find out how they plan to do this, as this clearly increases the necessary level of effort. None of them offered a description of how they would flash the window and maintain the exterior membrane and I did not think to ask. You can be sure I'll ask now and it may very well be the reason I have such a spread in quotes.
BTW, what if anything did they wrap houses with in the 1950s (in the Pacific Northwest)?.
I've been following your thread with interest, but haven't had anything to add until now.
I don't detail how I'm going to flash something in my bids. Actually, I don't detail how I'm going to do most of my work. My customers trust me enough that I'll do the work properly. You have to find a contractor you can trust to work on your house.
Ask for references, talk to their suppliers, and stop obsessing about the price.
You'll remember the quality long after you forget the price.
BTW, what if anything did they wrap houses with in the 1950s (in the Pacific Northwest)?
Well, there's this housewrap that many, including myself, think is the best performer.
Builders felt. Aka, tarpaper.
'50s, hunh? I'm not so sure that you have a plywood sheathing, now. In the '50s there were more craftsmen carpenters and they had regional styles that got the job done quite well. You'll find out when the DW is stripped. Good or bad, you get to see the quality when the DW is gone.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
98133 - "...this implies that the contractor's overhead and profit is 200% to get to a total of $1500. That sounds like an outrageous factor to me (a layperson)."
98133, I don't want to or mean to seem rude or insulting in any way but as a layperson just what the heck do you know about just what the costs of running a contacting business are? I think this is where we all make some terribly dangerous and naively prejudiced assumptions at times. I know I've done it myself over the years with other businesses in other business sectors when I try to think I can "understand" what they are charging me.
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No offense taken on the layperson comment. That's why I am asking this group who is more knowledgable that I am on this topic. If a 200% markup is not unusual, let me know. I realize that just because it sounds outrageous does not necessarily make it so. My perceptions are my perceptions, but given additional info, I am fuly winning to change my perception.
calvin -
"I would like to meet the carpenter that gets 30-35 an hour from a window replacement contractor."
Come to New York or go to San Francisco.
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No thanks man, 35.00 for a burger at sardi's is way to ................how do they say..............pricy.
ha.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
In NY it's more like $75 - $90/hr.
Actually I was thinking you can find a range of $55 to $120.
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In fact funny story... about a year ago I was out walking with the dog and one of my neighbors was having the top of his chimney rebuilt. I walked on up and staring talking to the guy who was obviously "the boss" and given that I had just looked at a job earlier that week that had a little brickwork on it I thought since it wasn't a real big job it might be worth it to see if he was interested in looking at it so I could put another masonry contractor in my stable. He told me he was so busy he was probably booked solid for two years. My eyebrows rose a little maybe and we kept talking. In the course of the conversation eventually got his rate out of him and when he told me he was charging $45 per hr all I could think was of course your booked solid for two years. There are a lot of people who will wait that long to get someone for half price!
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on a side note ...
I got a buddy home my home town and know 2 of his work buddies.
all 3 work for Traco as installers ...
not sure if it's real employee or sub work or how it goes down ...
I do know they work piece meal ... and have their system down and throw more windows in that I could imagine in a week ...
and don't know what their exact "hourly" breakdown would be ... but all 3 live in decent houses and all 3 ride custom Harley's that run between $25K to $30K.
not a bad lifestyle setting windows all day ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I'm wondering why the quotes are showing an hourly rate. Why don't you just get a fixed price for the job, then the labor rates will be irrelevant?
John
I don't think that there are many window installers that do not get paid in piece work. If you are talking about what the company gets the hourly rate would not relate. A company has to cover it's overhead and they just may want to make a profit?
That rate would be very low in the urban market where I live. Why don't you fill in your profile so people will know where you're located?
Billy
98133,
First of all a top carpenter who is paid a wage of $30 per hour typically "costs" his or her employer $37.50 to $40.50 even before a company thinks about recovering their cost of doing business and earning a profit. That called labor burden and it typically includes employer taxes FICA, workers comp insurance, benefits.
After that then there are basically two schools of thinking regarding markup to generate a Gross Profit. There's the Uniform Percentage Markup Method where a contractor applies the same markup to Labor, Materials, and any Subcontractors costs. Contractors using the Uniform Percentage Method will typically have markups in the range of 1.2 to 2.0 and average around 1.67. In that scenario lets say the task of installing an average size window of 11 to 16 sf that costs $250 takes on average 1.390 labor hours. A contractor using that average markup of 1.67 will then charge you:
And then again there is the is the Capacity Based Markup Method where the contractor uses a markup on his labor only to try and recover his overhead (cost of doing business) on the the sale of his or her labor alone and will sell you the materials and subcontracting at Cost or close to cost (they will markup materials and subs for a Net Profit). The markups you typically see there range from 1.90 to 2.35 with the median being 2.12.
$392.42
The Capacity Based Markup contractor will always have a higher Labor Billing Rate than a Uniform Percentage Markup contractor but the price you end up paying for the materials in your project they provide are not marked up as much which give you a lot more flexibility in choosing what kinds of window you want to put in.
The numbers I used to crunch with above took your 30 per hour carpenter (the low figure for a top carpenters wage you gave) and then applied the average markups using the two methods. Billing rates such $85 to $110 per hour are fairly typical in a metropolitan area such as the new york region where I am.
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I understand and appreciate your reply. Let's say I am OK with a $100/hr burdened rate and the window itself is $350. Add in another $100 for incidental materials, trim etc. New opening, 32 wide by 60 tall. See my earlier post for wall characteristics. Can you reasonable get from here to $2500 per opening? Assume sheet rock liner casing and unpainted wood sill. Seattle, WA area. Some comments from the sales reps indicate a 2 person crew can do two new openings per day, which I infer means that it takes about 8 labor hours per opening. Another poster suggested up to 12 hours per opening. Doing the math gets me to the neighborhood of $1500 per opening +/-. I can't get to $2500 per opening, unless there is some workmanship factor I don't appreciate. The only other factor is the fixed price quote and the amount of risk built in...would it be better for me to ask for a time and materials contract?
Yeah I can see $2500 per opening. While in my example above I used to illustrate how the two different markup work I gave a figure of 1.390 LaborHours to install an average size window that may only be a small tiny (and the easy) part of the work involved per opening. There is the initial mobilization in getting set up to do the job. The original window has to be removed (sometimes the most labor intensive part of the job) along with preparing the new opening (sometimes either no work at all or the most labor intensive). The window then has to be insulated, and the window trimmed. And then there is the time involved in cleaning up and breaking down the job as well as the labor hours and money (dump costs) it takes to dispose of the old windows. There are a lot of things that call all add up. What kind access do they have to the windows? Are they going to install off of the ground step ladders extension ladders or scaffolding. All those things add cost to the job too. And thinking about the billing rate of the installing contractor again too the contractor that owns or rents a lift will have a higher billing rate too although they may very well be able to do the job a lot faster than the ladder and scaffolding contractor. It all depends.
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I believe this is about as straight forward a job as they come? One story ranch with locations for new windows readily accessible from the ground...top of opening to be about 8 feet off of ground level (i.e. not a second story window and no scaffolding or manlift needed). We are talking three new openings in total, each 32W by 60 H. No plumbing or electrical encumberances. Wood lap siding, no brick work. Milgard Classic vinyl casements (no grids). Interior is sheetrock. Final trim to be sheetrock liners and wood sill. Does not include permits. 3 times $2500 equals $7500.
Edited 2/23/2007 8:02 pm by 98133
Edited 2/23/2007 8:03 pm by 98133
Edited 2/23/2007 8:04 pm by 98133
Edited 2/23/2007 8:05 pm by 98133
Without looking specifically at your venue and the working conditions there I can't tell you if your getting taken or not but I'll bet your not. Any contractor that gouges is eventually going to have to answer one day to the market when his or her reputation catches up to them. if they've been awhile for a while they are probably right in the market wherever they should be.That said sure you can always go out and find someone, some contractor somewhere to do it for a rock bottom price but I often wonder if that is worth the risk.
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Any thoughts on time and material vs fixed price? I have a fixed price quote, and I do believe there is something in there for unforeseens.
Oh yes I'm sure there is something in there for the unforeseen in a fixed price bid. You might very well do better T&M but then again if the extra work to take care of the unforseen exceeds the buffer the contractor included in his or her fixed price bid you pay for it.'Think you project is worth or worthy of that risk? That's the judgement call you will have to make.
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Are the walls already opened up on the inside? How do you know that there isn't any wiring where the new framing is going to go?
Do these bids include replacing and finishing the sheetrock thats gonna have to be torn out to facilitate new studs and header?
Remove and replace base moulding?
Return trips to finish mud and sand sheetrock? Possible 2 trips for a ready to paint finish.
Setting up dust protection to protect house from drywall dust?
P.S. If your Home depot is any thing like ours then there is a high probability that there is going to be a scheduling screw up that's going to cost someone some time or money. ( As a contractor, time is money to us.) Is it going to be the contractor that eats this? If this happens, would you offer to compensate them for the inconvenience?
Good luck with your project!
Are the walls already opened up on the inside? How do you know that there isn't any wiring where the new framing is going to go?
Answer: Walls not opened up and no indications (ktr agreed and I believed priced the quote accordingly). Your point is well taken, but it appears there is no plumbing or electrical to deal with.
Do these bids include replacing and finishing the sheetrock thats gonna have to be torn out to facilitate new studs and header?
Answer: Replace/refinish sheetrock - Yes. Painting - No.
Remove and replace base moulding? Answer - No mouldings.
Return trips to finish mud and sand sheetrock? Possible 2 trips for a ready to paint finish.
Answer: Yes.
Setting up dust protection to protect house from drywall dust?
Answer: This has not come up, but I assume yes.
P.S. If your Home depot is any thing like ours then there is a high probability that there is going to be a scheduling screw up that's going to cost someone some time or money. ( As a contractor, time is money to us.) Is it going to be the contractor that eats this? If this happens, would you offer to compensate them for the inconvenience?
Answer: I used HD to price out the window itself, so I'd know how much of the overall cost attributable to the window (the rest of the cost primarily being the labor). I have no intentions of buying the windows from HD and providing to the contractor. I would buy the windows and install together.
Edited 2/24/2007 12:06 am by 98133
98133,
I don't know where you live and without seeing the job, it would be unfair for me to say if that price was high or not! I was just trying to make the point that adding a window where there once wasn't one takes time to do a good job.
.....but,....I will say this, where I live windows in general, be it replacement (leaving the jambs), what we call new construction windows (replacing the jambs and all), or just adding a window where there wasn't one boils down to two things...
They are either underbid and poorly installed or installed properly and priced as such.
Good luck!
dug
Well folks---- I have read through the whole thread
and it looks to me like a pretty safe bet that the O.P. is being charged QUITE reasonably.
the O.P. has forgotten to calculate in the pita factor on his particular job----and once THAT is included it may even be the case that he is being UNDER charged.
Stephen
98133 If there ends up being more info past post 22 forgive this answer, I refuse for once to read the same answers over and over followed by your answers trying to justify why you think it should be lower. I am a full time window/door installer and 3 brand new openings is more than one long day for 2 guys. There is NEVER a straight forward job until after you are done and younever know what's in a wall until it is open. your price Is in line with what the company I work for would charge. If you are not comfortable with the price get more bids and if you want this contractor that is the price. BTW if it is that straight forward get a couple of friends and knock it out!
You're right. Sounds easy. You do it and let us know how it works out.
As others have said no offense but how many windows have you cut it? There are many contingencies you may run into cutting a hole in a wall. You may be right and nothings in the way or maybe not.
Without seeing the job we cant know everything but you must realize there is more than just punching a hole in the wall and hoping for the best.
Finally I love when people tell me how much it costs me to do business.
Even if its a one man show you're not just paying an hourly wage for one man, you're hiring a company with overhead.
i'm still trying to figure out why anyone would bid this job by the hour? not me! set price up front!
FWIW, I charge 65 per hour, with a 4-hour minimum.
However, maybe the price includes more than just an hour labor...might be compensating for the trip or drive or other encumbrances
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
question is Pete------
will you come down here to akron for that rate?
stephen
and if so-----could we avoid talking politics?
500 bucks per window? I'd be all over Akron like .... well, like a guy getting 500 bucks a window.
Politics? What politics?
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Ok, after more reading I've realize the error of my ways... I was talking replacement windows... yikes, new openings.... that is a bit more....lol.
Not that it is that difficult to do. I could knock out 3 or more of those in a day, no problem, no plaster or paint though as the dry times for finishing screw up productivity.
Matter of fact, I am putting a new access door through a wall at a Mall in the Cleveland area... exterior wall that is.... for about 1200.00 labor... finished (no paint or trim needed interior. Wall is 10" steel stud with EIFS exterior and Gyp interior. Door is commercial knock down frame, steel frame and slab, undersized. Will only take a day and most of that will be trips to and from the truck. Will be a lot quicker if I take a helper.
Cutting fresh openings into existing walls and then putting in all the structural components is pretty easy work, imho. If the opening is simply trimmed in wood, I won't even need to mess up the wall finish. I did two this way over the summer.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete,
might be good if we can talk in person,or at least off line about some of this in the next few weeks before the weather breaks.
politics aside
we share many similar( if Mercenary) attitudes and motivations
( it's all for the kids,ain't it?)
I would not anticipate any dificulties from either of our outsized egos----as you would CLEARLY have YOUR area of expertise----and I will have mine.
additionally,my schedule can almost always adapt to yours.
Lunch?(---- I am kind of addicted now to Original Daves Cosmic Subs---they got one near You?????)
Stephen
Stephen,
Never had luch at Dave's cosmic subs but wouldn't mind trying it.
Somebody else... maybe it was you... reminded me of the food at University Inn here in Cleveland. There's another place I'd love to get ot... just haven't seemed to have the time.... or been able to remember it when I have had the time.
If anybody asks, I love lunch.... and breakfast... and dinner.... and a few bites inbetween.
I do a lot of commercial work for restaurants and the best perk is all the free food.
Anyhow, back to business......
If you need some things, give me a ring at 216-328-1351. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you do primarily roofing, right? Do you do any commercial roofing? Can you also handle LARGE roofing projects... like 300 square of shingle in a week?
I don't know if my email here is good but if not, you can also go through my link, below.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
FWIW,
Comparing HD windows with even the same brand doesn't mean they are equal. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples.
Having said that and despite all the protestations from the others in here justifying high prices (all more or less true )I think you would be wise to get several quotes on the job. No one out of your area can tell you what labor rates for residential window replacement is or should be. Your local market determines that. My guess is that most competent locals around you will be charging in the area of about $50.00 -60.00 /hr. based on Portland Or. metro pricing.
Window replacement companies are notorious here for making a huge profit margin by over charging for the actual work involved. You might try some smaller builders in your area , not window specialty companies and see what you can shake out . See who among your acquaintances has had a remodel done lately.
Paying top dollar often doesn't mean you got what you paid for , it often means you just paid more than the job could have been done for and with equal or greater skill by someone else.
Thanks for your reply. I hear you loud and clear and that is one big reason why I asked my question in the first place. I am willing to pay for decent workmanship, but I can't seem to get the underlying labor and material numbers to add up. You are the first to suggest that overpricing might be the case. Unfortunately, we never get to know the outcome until it's too late to do anything about it. I am still hoping for more perspectives from others out there who have done this before. 3 new openings, no undue complications, standard type vinyl windows. Does this all add up to $7500 ($2500 each?).
Sometimes I think that if I had posted that I had actually paid that much, then all the comments would come out of the woodwork that I had paid too much and that I should have asked questions FIRST. I am trying to do that.
Again, many thanks.
Your Welcome
In 1985 when I worked for a contractor doing finish work he paid me $28/hr.
In 2003 when I did the finish work on a big house for a contractor he paid me $45/hr.
Attitude has a lot to do with how much I charge. If I feel like the person will nickel and dime me then I quote them a higher price. If they pay on time and are nice to work for then I charge less. Headaches cost a lot of time and money.
Personally, I think you are looking at this whole thing the wrong way.
You get a fixed price bid. If you like it, then go with it. If not, get a few more. By this time you will have a pretty good idea of the going rate for whatever your job is, and then all you have to do is figure out if you can afford to have the job done and move forward. The only things that are important to you are how smoothly the process is preformed, the end result, and the end cost to you.
What labor rates are is inconsequential to you. You are right about one thing though, you won't be able to figure out how someone else runs their business - unless you are running it.
Based on the little I already learned about you if you hire a company or individual to do the job on an hourly basis you will not be satisfied. One guy will take smoke breaks, another guy will take a 1:20 "one hour lunch" and then have to leave 15 minutes early to go pick up his kid. Then, on day 2 one of the guys will be gone for 2 hrs to go get some more lumber at a place 20 minutes down the road. This will be stuff they should have brought with them in the first place anyway. And during the whole process you will be getting POed. I probably would too.
Let me tell you a little story: My mother was in a serious car crash. She was rushed (metavacked?) to the hospital. A doctor worked on her for about 2.5 hours. She died. The doctor's bill alone was $6000. That was not including the hospital, emergency transport, etc. I guess the job really couldn't even have been considered a success? I probably got a discount for that. So, I guess he made $2400 per hour. Heck, he only has to work for a few days to get a new Lexus for his wife. Maybe only work for a few weeks to send his kid to college. Well, maybe not. :-) Same deal with the lawyer we had to hire to pick up the pieces from the wreck itself. There wasn't any point in scrutinizing any of this too much. It is just what happened. All this was in 1992 $s. Obviously this isn't something I'd joke or BS about. So, $100 or $150 for a "working man" is about right.
Obviously, you're not happy with the one quote you have - get more. They may be lower, maybe not. When comparing the different quotes be sure you're comparing apples-to-apples; maybe provide you're own written scope of work to be sure everyone quotes the same materials, finishes and clean-up/debris removal. Don't assume protection of interior floors and surfaces is a given - some guys do a great job of it, some guys 'might' throw down a drop cloth if they think of it.
Maybe the guy at $7,500 is prompt, professional and will deliver a great job for you and will still be in business next year in case of a problem. And maybe a much cheaper guy (more in line with the O&P you seemingly want to pay) pulls up in a ratty azz truck with a drywall bucket full of tools a bunch of guys on work release...who knows?
For what it's worth, I only do small projects & work from a fixed-price contract, when I get a customer that tries to back into my hourly rate or profit margin by disecting the quote (much like this exercise!) I run - not walk - run away. Always seemed to be an undercurrent that they felt they were being taken advantage of....not a healthy work environment for the contractor OR the customer.
-Norm
In my area we bill by sq.footage for window. 11.00 - 16.00/sq.ft. (canadian dollars)depending on complexity. min 10sq.ft. per window. Doors are a little different, pricing depends on the door and install requirements.
For repeat customers I will price hourly 35.00/hr. per man.
Larger projects I will price by the day. 600-800 per day depending on complexity. This will usually cover the unforseen.
Fences/Decks Material x 1.5 = Labour
Labour + Material x Appl. Taxes = Invoice Total
100.00 per hour can get expensive if your contractor walks slow and talks alot.
Good Luck with that.
Doctor Dave
Not all people or situations are treated the same. It may not be fair, but the world isn't fair.
One sub bases his bids on a number of factors including the type of car in the driveway, how the house is decorated, employment type, and a few things he probably didn't say.
Personally, the only jobs I won't do hourly are egressable windows and I bid those very high hoping to not get the job. Unfortunately sometimes I still get the job when other contractors simply decline to even bid 'em.
Some finish carps I've known raise the bid if it seems the client is extra picky, extra dust phobic, extra annoying, extra this, or extra that. To meet the expectations of those clients it simply takes extra effort.
It's also quite common to raise bids well above normal if their schedule is busy. If they don't get the job it's no problem since they're already booked solid. If they do get it, it's such good profits that it makes it all worth it to miss Bobby's little league game or a weekend of skiing.
Unfotunately, there are also factors that biased contractors use to discriminate against just about every category imaginable.
When a number of trades are involved in a window install, some are hesitant because of unfamilarity with one or more aspects of the install. For instance, to a guy who doesn't know crappola about sheetrock, he has to bid high to cover himself if he needs to hire a sub and has no idea how much that would cost.
One old contractor with terrible hearing and no hearing aids either raises rates or simply won't do jobs for those with heavy accents, speach impediments, or soft talkers.
Low bidders either misjudge the situation, which is a great deal for you, or they slop it together and don't mind working for cheap.
On the high end there are guys who do fantastic work reliably. Unfortunately, you also have the middle or low priced contractors who are overbidding for one reason or another.
In the middle you have overpriced low-end work, underpriced high-end work and run of the mill work at run of the mill prices.
None of what I've said is new, but I will second the vote that all these factors and more are alive and well. High guys with good reputations and expect to pay above average prices for above average work.
Best of luck.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
""Low bidders either misjudge the situation, which is a great deal for you, or they slop it together and don't mind working for cheap.""
Sometimes they are just better, faster, sharper and willing to work for just a bit less than the next builder, or have less overhead so they can charge less..or maybe they have 3 jobs just down the street and can package the trades into doing things together on all three. ""On the high end there are guys who do fantastic work reliably. "" Some .. and some who just think that if they charge high it makes them look good to the customer, or think that they have a fish on the line who will pay for next gambling junket to reno, or who just think that their stuff don't stink and therefore they are worth more than any body else and are happy to tell you all the reasons why... ""In the middle you have overpriced low-end work, underpriced high-end work and run of the mill work at run of the mill prices."" Some, and some who are ripoff artists, and some who do an honest days work for a fair price, and some who charge less cuz it's a widow with children ... nuff said.
If the window install is done properly, that rate is a bargain. If it's done badly then any price is an overcharge. When I go to my truck dealer to drain and lube transmission or replace timing belt, the cost is right in the neighborhood of $90 an hour. A competent carpenter takes just as much training and time on the job as the professional auto mechanic, yet no one seems to bat and eye at the dealership's hourly fees to service cars. Let that carpenter work on your house, the most expensive item you own, and you question the $90 hourly fee?
My accountant charges $240 an hour for sitting and talking. Attorney is anywhere from $150 to $400 an hour, again just for talking. I go to the dentist and he checks my teeth for five minutes during semiannual cleaning and charges me $55 to look in my mouth and $110 for the dental hygienist. Forty five minutes tops and the cost is right around $200 but that's the cost of doing business and keeping the teeth in top shape.
98:
I typed a long explanation about window installation and then during spell check "hit the wrong button" which cleared my screen and the post was lost. I hate that when that happens... !!!!
Anyway, a summary: Look closely at these Milguard new construction window installation instructions and in particular look at the framing, nail flange flashing, and also notice that they want caulk under the nailing flanges.
Whatever contractor said he would just cut a hole in the wall and install a window with no siding removal, cross him off your list.
Also, one thing I'm not clear on: Are these windows replacing windows that are already there? If so, are the new windows bigger than the existing windows? Or are the new windows the same size as the existing windows?
Or, are these totally new window openings for windows in new locations.
Totally new openings. No windows existing. Thanks.
As I was reading this thread, I recalled a conversation I had a few months ago with a prospective customer. I had given him a fixed-price bid for some work and he started asking questions about the factors that made up the price (labor rate, materials cost, overhead, markups, etc).
Normally, I would have told him that I don't provide that level of detail in a fixed-price bid, but his questions seemed to be based more on curiosity than an attempt to nit pick - so I tried to give him general answers without a lot of specifics.
He kept pushing me until I pointed to his Lincoln Navigator SUV and asked him where he took it for service and repair. When he told me, I asked him if he had ever questioned their shop rate ($95/hr), or their actual parts cost, or their actual time to do a job. When he said no, I asked why he was beating me up with all the questions. Like them, I provide a service for a price. And, unlike them, I make house calls! - lol
And, unlike them, I make house calls! - lol
I may steal that sometime!
Why the hell is it that people think its OK to give a mechanic $95/hr but if we charge $45-50 were robbing them blind! I spent just as much effort to learn what I know as they did.
Doug
Help yourself, Doug. I made that up on the spur of the moment, but I'll gladly put it in the public domain. A few other folks have said they plan to use it, too. - lol
In a more serious vein, I think that the pricing issue is about customer perception. When they go to a mechanic, doctor, dentist, lawyer, etc, they see them in a surrounding that helps justify the price - nice offices, support staff, mysterious machines, etc.
We (on the other hand) usually show up in jeans, often dirty after a days work, and in a pickup truck that may look pretty disreputable (sorta like the gardener who comes once a week for a $40-$50, 20 minute, mow, blow and go). Add in all the DIY shows that make it all look soooo easy. For good measure, don't forget that they're thinking about paint, marble, tile, etc and we're trying to talk about load bearing walls, termite damage, new wiring, yadda, yadda, yadda. Are you getting the picture? - lol
Most of my business is custom cabinetry and woodwork and I've noticed substantially less resistance to my prices if they come to my shop. Then, they see all the tools, equipment, etc and begin to get a sense that there may be more to this than meets the eye.
I once had a customer show up as I was making some raised panel doors. I finished the panel, shut off the shaper and dust collector and we started talking. The poor guy almost forgot why he was here. He was a big fan of the woodworking shows, but had never seen anyone actually doing it. I spent about 30 minutes showing him how to make a door and he signed up for an entertainment center. Easiest $3500 job I ever sold. - lol