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NEED HELP! TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO FRAME A RADIUS ARCH INTO A HIP TRAY CEILING. JUST CAN’T SEEM TO FIGURE IT OUT. IF ANYONE COULD HELP, IT WOULD BE APPRECIATED.
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I haven't considered the trim, because no one has complained. There must be a critical difference to framing I have done in the past, and how it is trimmed, compared to yours. Please enlighten with the problems when reducing the amount of framing.
I've never come across a window that was on a 4' interval either. This is exactly why I start my sheets at the holes and go each way. Words don't seem to have conveyed the speed. If Mad Dog or others don't convince me of the gross error of not adhering to a 16" golden rule, then I'll post a series of pics in a few weeks. There is such a difference between multi-story/multi-family and single family. The issues that the framers are addressing may be so different as to give them a much different perspective on what is important. When was the last time you framed a 9'x75' exterior 2x6, with cdx and 5/8 gyp? when that is how you spend the morning, and is your paycheck , you begin counting beans.
Jason, it actually does sound like you are rather proud.
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Tip of the day!
Don't hijack someone elses post to answer your concern.
Do a separate post and you may have better luck.
Gabe
*Nathan, your technique seems like it would be really quick, but I have a reservation. Understand that mostly, I'm an east-coast trim carpenter, so I'm asking this out of ignorance of most seismic construction considerations. Sheathing a wall your way seems as if it would sacrifice a lot of the shear bracing the sheathing offers. I imagine a big window opening with no ply or osb over the header to stud connections hinging under lateral loads. What do you guys think?Andy
*Nathan, not at all. I cut my plates, layout intersections, headers, corners, etc., and put in all that. Then I mark off or use a plastic jig and air nail on all my studs on. I sheathe everything from one side to the other, cutting out windows after standing. I'm carefully reading all the posts and trying to get an idea of what I might try different, so please, if you've got a jig that'll help, I'd really like to know.
*Well Andy I hadnt really been thinking about the seismic considerations but it looks like maybe I better start. Just looked at the prints for the little bungalow I'll be starting next week. Very basic 4 cornered box 28x42, no big glass or anything weird. I've got 6 brace panels and 3 alternate brace panels that I think will in large part determine my sheathing pattern.JonC
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Andy, I understand the concern with loss of shear at the top of the header. But two points. One, the length of the ply from the top plate to the bottom of header, at the trimmer, makes that shear point so small, as to render it meaningless compared to the shear being exerted against the length of the king stud. If the shear panel from end of wall to window opening, or window opening to window opening isn't overcoming the desire to rotate, then another one-half foot to two feet or so isn't going to make a big difference. Ply separation point, if things are moving that hard. I read somewhere that window openings rendered that section of wall from base plate to top plate meaningless in the shear calcs. I am most definitely not an engineer, just using my gut. It is often wrong.
Second, the ply that covers the header, and the section below the sill, get pattern edge nailing into top and botton cripples which receive pattern nailing both end nailed through the plates, and face nailed into the king stud above , and trimmer below. This requires one extra top cripple than the number of trimmers.
Quite often the window and door openings are exactly where the seismic hardware are installed, to make the best use of the full dimension of the shear panel.
Would love to hear from a trim guy the reasons why it is important to have stud layout hold to 16" through the course of the wall. With partitions breaking up the starting and stopping points of trim, how do you know where the next stud is in relation to the partition? Or is it important.
As to cutting one thousand studs, or even fifty, if I can cut them off the bunk, with my saw rolled out to the cutting point one time, cut them all without having to pick them up, or mark them individually, I have just saved a lot of travel and tool time. Precutting the stock is the beginning of prefab mentality. Make the jig out of a 2x4, with a stop to grab the end of the stud you are cutting, and use the other end of the 2x4 as a table guide for the saw to travel against. Cut one stud, hook the saw with your skyhook on the horse, move the jig over one stud, grab the saw and cut another. You're left with a course of cut studs than can be gathered neatly and restacked for wall spread, or boom to the deck. When you're into it, the saw blade should never come to a complete stop, before you are cutting the next stud.
My dream is to be so efficient as to reduce the size of this post to a load you could carry in one trip. Nate
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Nathan,
Don't read me wrong, if you've got a method you like, I'm glad you're willing to share. At this stage though, I must be confused as to how you get sheathing and sheetrock on faster without paying attention to 48" o.c. studs, but then again, maybe that is what you're saying and I don't get it.
*nathan,The difference for me is not dramatic, but extremely convenient. When I know that I've got studs on 16" centers, I can avoid mistakes, studfinding, and can mark either the wall, ceiling or floor quickly, and know that I will hit the studs.
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Do the backing issues for trim become more important as the details become more elaborate and higher in their profile?. Even the expensive condos here are very basic in their finish details. Am out of the multi-family scene for now and am sort of scrambling to get in touch with what is expected of a higher-end market , single family frame.
current project will be a dutch-hip bungalow with an eyebrow dormer and an large shed dormer onto a rear deck. In an expensive part of town.
Beyond the square, plumb, flush abc's...
What gives the pro finish guys reason to say, " that was easy" ?
*There must be some kind of delay in the posting scheme here, cause I keep finding posts that are posting after I've already replied to a post. Know what I mean?Yeah, thats sort of it, Mad D. Lets say you put a sheet dwn with left factory edge on a trimmer. Sheet runs to your right, and now doesn't fall on a stud center. Next sheet goes down so its left side overlaps the first sheet by just enough to get the first stud center under the first. You find this by laying the right edge of the second sheet on a stud that is on layout. Sometimes every sheet for three or four sheets may have some fall off, but never more than 14 1/2 inches. I've found I would have been cutting these on a horse anyway. So I run full sheets straight across the wall, come back and use the factory edges as my guides to rip the sheet below to fit, then slide out the fall off. Have to tack these down with vision as to what stays, and what will be pulled out later.
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Just what expensive part of town? Wallingford?
Sam
*"What gives the pro finish guys reason to say, " that was easy" ?" Doing my own framing and not having to wonder if some production driven highballer "saved" a few studs, or left the backing out for wall cabinets, or blocking for towel bars, handicapped rails, extra block for wide baseboard next to a door with wide casing, or blocking for crown or plate rail, or the block behind the drywall where the know will punch a whole, or blocking for the chair rail on top of wainscoting and on and on...And regardless of science, I agree with whoever said the sheathing is stronger if it breaks over a header. This "faster, faster" line of thinking is not for the betterment of the building, but for increased profits - and I believe the pursuit of money is a destructive path. True efficiency only happens when the entire job is considered, not when the profits of one sub in the chain are paramount. The increasing division of labor within our profession is to the detriment of our craft.
*Nathan, your reply makes sense to me. As I said, I'm an east-coast trimmer by trade, so shear walls are largely a vicarious experience for me.Now, to answer why consistant stud centers matter, imagine nailing up base, chairail or crown to a painted wall. The drywall fasteners are no longer easily visible, assuming a good taping job. On base, for example, I would find one stud (that wasn't a trimmer or some other obvious off-layout member) near a corner, and lay my tape on the floor with that stud as zero. Then, I grab my nailer and shoot the base home at each layout mark. Crown and chairail are similar. Remember, trim guys bid by the job, too. My production techniques would depend on you being a consistant framer.Glad to be editing instead of eating drywall dust,Andy
*Good points Jim. I was looking at it from the dual perspectives of: providing a mystery-free job for trimmers, and: Since I'm usually the framer and the trimmer, I'm helping myself out as well. But it doesn't matter to me if I'm the next guy or not, I always think ahead and try to do what's best--even for rockers and painters!Before I framed houses, I trimmed them. This gave me a good outlook on what a good framer should be doing. Don't leave sloppy work for everyone else who follows.
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Framing is the root of all that's good or evil in a house. When it comes time to run pipes and wire, set windows and doors and hang rock and trim 90% of the mistakes and cosmetic goofs can be traced back to the frame.
Deciding to improvise your own frame layout is the biggest bunch of crap I've ever heard of.All drawings are done on 16" centers, and everybody reads to that measure. The builder,the mechanical trades,cabinet fabricators,everybody.Your arbitrary change of that measurement to accomodate a case of the lazy-ass would get you run off and charged back any and all money paid on one of my jobs.
P.S. Do they have any building codes where you live? Or inspectors?
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Block lines are in the basic category. Installed flush and solid.
know what the trades are going to be doing around your frame, and accomodate their work. Learn about what they do. Carefully consider their concerns and suggestions without dismissing them as "just a plumber".
Give a damn.
So I would propose that efficiency and wise use of time leaves the tradesman more time to give attention to details that will affect other trades. How can it not add up to a positive? So I press on for a few more efficiencies somewhere. They are always there. Isn't that one of the joys of the craft? To develop your skills and the application of them to the material. I enjoy the moment that I see more clearly what it is I am trying to do.
Most complicated frame I've ever done is on Capitol Hill. Humbling thing is, I can tell that 70 years ago, this frame was the common work of the day.
*OK, I'll tell you guys one that shocked me. A couple weeks ago, 5 of us, all pros, from around the country and one from Australia, got together and framed a wall (it was really a great day, one I won't soon forget).Anyway, one of the guys is nailing off top plate, and I happen to see him nailing between the studs so I stop him and say "...we always nail directly over the studs, as a courtesy to the electricians and plumbers, so they can drill without hittin' nails"Not only did this guy never hear of that before, another guy, a seasoned pro for sure, says to me "you know, I've never heard anyone say that before either". Hell, I figured everyone knew that one.We all have to try to think in terms of what makes a BETTER building, and the funny thing is, when you do that, you will be worth more money, because you will be a better builder. The more we all talk here online, and exchange ideas, and listen to what other folks do, the wider perspective we gain, and the better we can build.
*Really like the idea about blocking where the door knob hits the wall. If you knew how many of those holes I'd patched over the years, and how I had to do it in some cases, you'd understand my embarrassment. You forgot curtain rods though. JonC
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So, I guess the building inspector, that was training new city inspectors, in this city of around three million, ( burbs included) must have enjoyed one of our piles of crap so much he decided to video tape it to use it as an example of his version of clean frame for 2hr. multi-family wood construction.
And most of the exterior walls around here require pattern stagger nailing, right down the length of the plate. It's kind of a structural thing, you know, like the HD's at the end of the complete shear panel? Your "frame" of reference may or may not be all that you think it is. There is no giving courtesy to the tradesman at the expense of the approved plans. This means all the plumbers have to drill through the shear nail pattern that holds base plate to floor, and the shear pattern nailing that provides the joist a home that won't try to get up and walk away. They are going to hit some nails when they are going through a shear wall, which quite often, happens to be next to a kitchen or bath, and nowwhere even near an exterior.
It's apparent that my framing experience is different than that of most here. But all said, I have had some exposure on what I need to learn to be ready for the trim details, that have been until now just rumoured to exist.
Seems like we all gotta remember things can be very regional, and we shouldn't have to hang our heads because our experience differs in lingo or minor details now and then.
Everyone, keep yer digits.
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Jim.... truer words were never said! "the increasing division of labor in our profession is to the detriment of our craft".
These days there is such an "every man for himself" attitude among all the various subs that it's a wonder anything ever gets built well.
As far as the the origional point of this post... "COME ON GUYS!!!!!" even back in the '80s when I was framing every framing crew that I knew of had a miter saw set up with stops for cutting all of their 2x4 and 2x6 material!!! please tell me you aren't seriously cutting a stack of studs with a skill saw. "perfect cuts, consistant lenghts, and the shortest amount of time spent cutting".
*I'm not an expert at many things, but this is one area that I'll blow my own horn on.Peter, most rough carpenters do not understand the function of their main product; a rough framed house. Most other people like Gabe cannot distinguish a finish from a rough either. Gabe will take this opportunity to lambast you for trying to effeciently speed your operation. I will commend you.Rough framing is an art not a science. Gabe trys to make it a science. Have you ever seen an artist at work with only his mantle and brushes? Somehow the beautiful drawing appears yet Gabe does not have a criticism for that. Peter you do have the right to insist on faster safer techniques especially if the results fall into the acceptable category. I personally have not squared a 2x4 in more than twenty years except in very specific, limited applications. And I can safely bet my left testicle that my percentage of unsquare cuts will equal the same amount of unsquare cuts by a guy marking a guideline. The most important part of the equation is a sharp quality saw. I can't cut a square line on anythiing with a crap saw and toothless blade.I can also cut the pitch of most roofs. If I have been working with a drastically different pitch, I will sometimes have to mark a few to get the "feel". Once a guy challenged me on my ability. I asked "what pitch do you want?. He asked for a 9/12. He got a 9/12 on the first try. I wouldn't bet my testicle on that however.Sheathing a wall is another story. There is no need for a tape, nor a chalkline on most walls. I lay and cut. Remember the function of the rough sheathing. It's not a finish surface. If you have shear wall considerations, then Andy's point should be considered. Personally, I start from one end and cut out each portion of the window as I lay it. I don't mark or measure much of anything. It must work because my windows always fit in the "rough" opening!I don't square any cuts unless they are critical. There are very few critical cuts on a rough frame. blue
*Jeff, you would be surprised at how much time squaring a line burns. How much? It more than doubles the time!I just watched a crew put more than 700 hours into a house that we have done in 300. And they have a skytrack on site too! And the house is horrible! And they square every line!Squaring a line on a rough 2x4 is the tip of the iceberg. A guy who has to square a line also has to do many other things that are totally unecessary. One of the basic tenets of being an efficient rough framer is to save time where possible and use more time where needed. IF you spend time on both ends, you will not be able to survive, especially in bad times. blue
*Good advice Jon.Micro managing new employees is usually counterproductive. It is much better to let them get accustomed to their new emviorment before you start tweaking their skills. Too soon and they will get frustrated and walk.Peter, give the guys some slack until they are comfortable, then demand increased production with the "new" techniques.blue
*Nathan, you are describing a "lap and cut" technique that I learned as a first year apprentice. It is very efficient and accurate. I don't quite agree however that it is efficient to always start at a window. Here's why: On most exterior walls, I try to start my stud layout to produce a stud on the center of the 4' layout. That will ensure a fast start with a factory edge on the end of the wall. I also maintain the spacing of cripple studs through the window layout. This ensures that the modular joints will be supported without additional blocking. I then lay my sheathing horizontally and make each window cut out as I lay. I also install all fasteners as I lay each sheet. I rarely pull out my tape. I'm sure our techniques are very similar and we could spend many minutes debating the relative speed of a particular method of sheathing different walls. I have butchered many walls and whipped through a good number too. It's called experience. Lapping and cutting where applicable,blue
*Steve G, you are talking talking to the king of rough frame bean counters. I'm not only interested in shaving seconds, I'm willing to shave nano-seconds!It's my nature. And I do quite well because of it. I just framed a 3150 sq ft house with a first house apprentice in under 300 hours. I personally will gross more than $15,000.00 for my less than three weeks effort. And the house is very nice! In fact, of the three currently being framed in the sub, it is easily the nicest. The 8-10 man crew with the skytrack cannot keep up with us in quality nor quantity. My other 4 man crew is doing a better job than the sky track crew, but still a distant second. Here's how I did it: I spent a lifetime studying the craft. I weeded out inefficient methods and needless parts. I put less material into a house and create a ton less waste. I put the correct parts in, in the correct position and use the correct amount of fasteners. I do things in the correct order and always try to shave a few seconds here and there. My rookie apprentice is fumbling around, doing the right things in the right order. He is more efficient than most twenty year journeymen because of the system, not his skill.And here's the ironic part: Because I'm so accurate in the things that I do, and my methods foolproof, the quality is higher! And easier! Framing correctly is a lot easier than dealing with inconsistencies. speedsquarelessly yours, blue
*Andy, I think the occassional missed layout stud would be incidental to the base nailing operation. I think he was trying to say that they exclude many uselss backing studs that are very close to the layout stud. Personally I always put the layout studs on layout in the exterior walls. I am a lot more liberal however on non bearing interior partitions. blue
*Jim, you almost make me feel guilty for being good at my trade. I must be one that leaves out all the "necessary" backing and blocking because I've never installed one of those blocks in a residential residence in my twenty some years of framing. I didn't even put them in my own home! I don't even know where the toilet paper holder is supposed to be located!!!Doesn't everyone just leave it on the sink?I suppose that if I was a finish contractor and this type of blocking was important, I would give price breaks to builders that insured that it was installed. I would also inspect each rough frame prior to sheetrock to discover possible problems. If I had to, I'd add an amount into each bid to cover the estimated time that it would take to add my required blocking. I ALWAYS keep tabs on the foundations of the houses that I intend to frame. It's cheap insurance. If I find something that I feel needs attention, I contact the superintendent. The window and wall board finishers in the sub that I'm in do these pre-inpections too. They fax me a list of desired tweaks to our installations. I'd happily accomodate any requests from plumbers, electricians, insulators, trimmers, hvac guys etc. If any of the requests fell outside of the "normal" installation, I'd simply ask for a work order from the site super. If the requests became a requirement, I'd simply increase my bids. As it stands today, my bids are based on passing inspection by the local officials that use a boca based criteria. Toilet paper blocking is not mentioned.Interestingly, a builder walked up few weeks ago soliciting bids. He indicated that he would be requiring things like curtain blocks etc. I told him that I surmised that he will be also requiring a lot of other "weird" things that I don't normally do. He indicated that I wa probably right. I simply told him that I would bump my "normal" sq ft price by a buck a foot. I'm not sure that the additional items will warrant the extra thousands, but I'm not taking any chances. If I have to add curtain blocks I sure as hell want to be paid for it. Ater all, my wifes old age living standards are at stake!He's contacting me on tues concerning my bids. I'm sure he will be wanting a negotiation (downward of course) on the price. I'm willing to negotiate too. If I don't have to do weird things, I'll lower my price half a buck. It'll be fun. blue
*Jim, the courtesy of nailing above studs is directed at a much closer target....us! We have to cut all the heats in a building and in the old days (of the steel blades) if you hit a nail, someone would be awfully hot as they had to file it or change it. Note: We don't use sawzalls around here to cut heats because they're too slow.Additionally the nails on the top plate are great locators for sheathing nailing.blue
*Mark, I've been framing since the 70's and have never seen a miter saw set up until this week when I noticed the 10 man crew with one set up. Even in the old days of 7'-6" second floor ceilings we cut all our studs on a saw buck. Most of our studs are pre-cut so the debate is moot. But we always have to cut the garage studs to match plate heights. To cut the garage studs I use this technique-much faster than setting them in a jig. I nail the bottom plate to the studs. Then I hook and mark each one individually by hooking the bottom plate. I then walk along whacking the studs. The drops are in perfect postion to be used to make brick racks. Lots of times they are the correct length, or can be creatively used. Try it, you'll be surprised at how efficient it is. The efficiency is gained because you are not double handling anything. Double handling is the fastest time eater on the jobsite.Oh yeah, my lengths and cuts are perfect if the saw is sharp.blue
*Peter, you seem like the type of fella that can grasp the need for speed. Heres a tip.Mark the layout centers with a permannent black marker instead of pencil lines and x's. Use your tape for layout for this technique rather than your framing square.blue
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Blue, if the rough sheathing doesn't need a square,plumb,level frame: what about the sheetrock inside?
I agree that good framers have some artist in them, but it's not the artist part that determines the basic quality of a frame. It's that boring old square and level that you don't seem to have the time to use.
I'd love to think that you do good work. I know your experience lets you take some liberties with the saw, but the overall tone of your post seems to say that a frame doesn't merit any attention to detail.
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blue,
If you don't mind indulging the ignorant....What are "heats"?
Thanks,
Rich Beckman
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Well blue, now I don't feel so bad. Now you have to defend how important square is to you, and whether or not you do it right every time.
If it was me, I'd cybersock him right in the kisser.
Dixon carbon black in the keel, and layin' out in the rain and ice.
*Well blue, now I don't feel so bad. Now you have to defend how important square is to you, and whether or not you do it right every time.If it was me, I'd cybersock him right in the kisser.
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Thanks Blue. The little nuances of construction are what create profit, efficiency, and quality.
Things like pointing an empty wheelbarrow towards the next target so that you are not trying to turn a full wheelbarrow. It's the little things.
If we older dogs can keep learning via this forum and defy the old adage THEN the whole industry benefits (as well as our bottom lines).
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Nathan, just jump as high as you want to fall!
In your previous post you asked what is needed for the trim crew, etc. to do a good job. My post to you and Blue were simply to illustrate what IS important to the next guy. You still don't get it however.
My advice to you is to try to sheetrock and trim a little before you try to walk on water. You will quickly begin to cuss know-it-all framers like yourself. If that's not good enough, try being a GC and having to call guys like you back for frame corrections after a walk-through or a red tag.Then try not to drive a claw hammer into your head while you explain how you've done it a million times and how you've got your own syatem and how there couldn't be any problems with your work.
I am so happy to have real carpenters working with me, I just can't stand it. What's a real carpenter? A guy who can raise the roof, rock the walls,trim the stairs and then hang crown molding and cabinets as well. Not some one-note-johnny "framer" who wouldn't know how to turn on a miter saw if his broke-assed daddy was there to show him.
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Blue,
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© 1999-2000
"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it."
Aristotle
*Blue, you forgot the part about being full of shit as well. Good thing you're working for yourself, I'd fire you in a nanosecond. One minute you're braggin about how you make your profit from not doing all those silly extra things like blocking for the finishers and now it's how you make 15 grand per house every 3 weeks with only a gopher on the payroll. Bullshit, you've been caught with your brains outside your mouth.Gabe
*We all use the speed square for making straight cuts, and on 45 degree cut's we use two men. One holding the square and helping guide the saw as the other triggers the motor and makes the cut. This way we get straight cuts and everyone gets to go home with a little sawdust in their toolbelts.
*Well bless my little cotton socks!! That is efficient! Up to now on 45 degree cuts we've had to use 3 men. One to hold the square, one to cut. And one to catch the waste.
*As framers and finishers we make sure the stud layout is marked on the floor with crayon before drywalling. Makes it a little easier for basemould later.
*Who holds up the blade guard....seems to me you'r a man short. Jeff
*And a guy to hang on to the board...And a guy stationed at the plug to cut power quickly in the event of an emergency...And a guy to supervise....Rich Beckman
*I supervise,catch the saw, then the ladder,then all the shit that falls out of their tool belts when they fall with the piece of wood they just cut off.So you're right it does take three guy's, maybe four Rich, I never thought about the guy to kill the power.
*Hey Pro, that sounds like my old carpentry union accept we had drunken foreman,by the way did we work together.LarryS
*Laarryy, Hic! I say Hic! maysbe weez deed pounds some nails toesgether. Yooze member thats deck weez builted inns Mirrorsmount? Boy nows that's wasa high offa the grounds.
*I first read about Larry Haun's framing method a few years ago, and had mixed feelings about it. A little time passed, and I started to try it, and had good results right off the bat. Now, I use and trust my eye for as much as possible. I use the tape less, the speed square less yet, and the cuts are perfect, or nearly so, 99% of the time. It works, and really saves time. Many times, I don't even mark the board, just keep staring at a reference point until I get the saw lined up, and save a further step, getting a pencil out. Try it for a week or so, I bet you'll stick with it.
*For me it has been like a circle. I started with my Dad who did everything by eye and accepted no less from everyone else. Then I started using layout lines, squares for guides, etc. Then I went back to the old way. All in all I think it is a matter of practice. If don't have astigmatism a little pencil tick and a good eye will do the job every time for framing.
*Joel, I just walked through the competitors rough frame in the sub that I am. The rough looked shoddy, especially the exterior finish work. These were the guys that set up a mitre saw, ran a forklift, used eight men and took longer than I would with three and myself.You will never see me posting that square is not important. In fact, I've been guaranteeing my houses to be square within 1/4" for more than two decades now. I find that aspect of framing to be child-like simple. I use a squaring technique that takes less than one minute.I also always square my framed walls prior to sheathing. I make certain that the top and bottom plates are straight and paralell. After that, all sheathing simply falls into place and cutting out openings is just a mundane simple operation. I find cutting square cutouts flush with a rough frame to be simple childs play and can normally cut one by eye for lengths up to 8' very true. Occasionally I'll wander (if my saw is dull) but never enough to affect the rough opening. I just don't see whats so difficult about wh acking out a rough frame of a window when the opening is 1'2 to 1" larger than the window.And when I set the windows, I always set them exactly (read that again...EXACTLY) paralell with the top plate, which I assume is level. I then square the window to within 1/32" of square which theoretically will be plumb because the top plates are level.I don't use the level as much as you'd like. I rely on paralell measuements once the deck is established. If the deck is off level plane, it will usually reveal itself in the first rain storm. The last house that I did had a low spot in the center of the house at the liveing room. Since the "dip" was less than 1/4", I did nothing about it. Hell, there's bound to be 1/4" deviations in a rough frame as long as God keeps making the lumber.Joel, I'd be willing to put my house up against any of your roughers. The superintendents in my sub do a walk through with their level and tape and spray paint any items missed or wrong. There isn't usually too much paint, especially in the areas that I personally work. My rookies are prone to leaving out closets and such, but nobodies perfect!I don't take liberties with the saw, I simply whack and stack.Heres a pic of me whacking the top cut of an octogon roofing member. Remember, I've never used, nor owned a slow..., oops, I mean a "speedsquare".` I'm still getting used to a new hitachi. Forgive me if my angles weren't perfect but the homeowner won't mind (me).
*Nathan, what and where can I find carbon black in the keel. I like a big black visible layout mark. Many of my techniques require quick vision from afar.blue
*Joel, Ive rasied the roof, installed drywall and gave it a "glass" finish, installed cut and mitred stairs and rails, hung crown molding and built and installed cabinets with my power saw, router, and sandpaper. I still don't know where the paper holder is supposed to be, so I can't put backing there.Blue-one-note-framer
*Your eyeballing technique is sound Mad dog.I also rarely measure or square anything that doesn't require it. For instance, I haven't measured or squared a trimmer stud once in my lifetime (actually thats not entirely true, but for routine windows, that statement holds true). And I almost always manage to cut the trimmer perfect! I always shim the poor cuts as requred by code and inspectors, but rarely need to shim more than one, every other house. I actually can't remember shimming one that I've done. It's been a while.blue
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Hey Blue! Slow down, I really didn't mean you in that last post, when I said a few things about framers. I was talking to Nathan about that one.He still seems to miss the point on interiors.
I have seen enough of your posts here to know that you do some good work. Also that you take pride in your work, and back it up. In my earlier post I said I was trying to emphasize a little attention to detail in a frame.Your response was perfect, because you showed how you do pay attention to those details,exactly.
As far as your picture goes, all I can say is "great gloves". I've got a pair just like 'em! But, where are those blue eyes?
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I've followed the same course FredB.
You've expressed the point very well and succintly.
blue
*Joel I've been using those gloves for about the last three years. They make my fingers much stronger. I can grip so many more things and the arthritis seems to have left my hands. My hands are as soft as my granndsons butt too! If I get a small calous, I sand paper it off now! I can even pick up small washers with them. I feel naked while working without them. I pay 9.00 per dozen and give them away to everyone that hasn't tried them.They come highly recommended with the blue_eyed_devil' stamp of approval.Don't worry about the tone of my reply (about rough framing). I love this topic more than I love life!Here's a shot of them blues. Oh darn, I'm wearing my rose colored safty glasses. I look at the world through rose colored glasses. It helps my dispostion!blue
*Blue,Did the rookie cut off your head?
*Blue,I see GAPS between the tops of the studs and the plate! Better check those rosy glasses!
*geesh, jim.. nice to be nice.. but i didn't know you nailed them anyplace BUT over a stud... so in other words some a dese guys got sinkers peakin down thru the bottom plate ?
*.. i just drifted thru this thread and observed that we're really talking about at least two animals..one is a tract house.. 30 to 300 in a sub-division..blue /nathan are the typical framers. ....well, actually ,,somewhat better than the typical tract framer.. ..because that's what the developer wants.. and they don't have to worry about blocking because the finish crew doesn't use blocking either...blocking only slows them downmagic nails into drywall.. lots of construction adhesive... and poly screw anchors hold up EVERYTHING from closet shelves to toilet paper holders to towel racks...to kitchen cabinets..and it all gets fixed on the punch list..split jambs..yada, yada , yada.. it's all about saving nickels so the prospective homebuyer can get the biggest box for his money and the developer can get the biggest profit... it has even taken over a lot of the custom home market .. caulk, clips, no blocking, no furring, ... don't take me wrong... blue and wegener are real artists , and they do have THE NEED FOR SPEED..if they ain't got it the developer finds someone who does...but i can't build one of those... i need blocking and furring , and nailers for my trim, and as a result.. we don't get to build many of the new homes....our square foot costs look rediculous compared to the product the developers are putting out..and their product looks rediculous three years out because there are lots of things just falling off the house..so ...we stick to additions and remodeling.. so we can do it the old more costly way, ..it ain't the way that puts the average guy and girl in their own home though... we need the modern version of levitttown for that... those days seem to be gone... it's a constant search for the lowest common denominator....i'll just add one more thing.... blue was right on when he said that the sequence is the king.. even in remodeling.. i know if i can just get the absolute sequence right , the rest of it will fall in place..and so-so carpenters can do great work if it's done in the right sequenceand that's a lot harder than it would appear...b but hey, whadda i no ?
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blue, if you're still checking this post, the "carbon black" crayon that writes in any weather, and doesn't fall apart is made by Dixon. I usually find mine at surveying supply places. The "keel" is just local vernacular for a wooden crayon or pencil holder.
strugglin to move from big expensive tracts to one time only customs. Gettin myself schooled, hard.
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Don't worry Maddog, gravity will fix those up.
blue
*Thanks for the tip Nathan. I've never run across a surveying supply house but if I do...blue
*Your right Gabe. I only made 12 g's. I mixed up the two bids since I hade two going on at the same time. But I'm pretty sure I can do a little better on the next one because my rookie has a whole house under his belt now.Like I've said in other posts, I'll gladly put some blocking in if someone will tell me where it's needed. I have no idea where the toilet paper is going to be located since it's not on the plan. There's plenty enough lumber along side the windows for curtain rods. I always put something solid for the shower doors to be hung to and stair rails to anchor to. I've nver been asked to do any cabinet blocking and therefore have never done it. I don't intend to do it for my own that I'm framing now.As far as my framing costs and expenses, heres the story. I do the house for 19200. I paid out 150 hours at $20.00. Thats 50 hours per (actually about 45 on avg and some ot). That's about $3000 in wages. Add about 1000 overhead, 1000 for crane and nails and that leaves about 14200. Take out some more for incientals and that leaves me with a few bucks for cigars.I really don't see whats so complicated about it.It's actually a pretty nice, simple house sans blocking.bluePs If you want to come and watch how I do it, I'll be glad to send you the address. It might be worth your while to sit on the curb for a couple of weeks (if your a framer).
*Joe, what's your point about asking my point? I'm not sure what your getting at.It sounds like the crew has their stuff together. Or maybe they don't. It depends on the details of the frame. Not many do even though they do it day in, day out. Most crews (and guys) are satisfied doing it just as they were taught without a thought toward improvement. blue
*Mark, if I was a finisher, I'd be walking the houses before they got boarded and mark all the studs too! I'd also check for the specific things that slowed me down on the last one. I'd be checking the rough stairs to make sure that they were set up right for my finish and inspect all the windows too. I'd probably put a tape to every rough opening to make sure they were sized right. All that would take me about a half hour; time well spent. I'm always amazed that the finishers never come to see me. If is was a finisher, I'd be good buddies with the framer and probably work out a deal to have him mark the floors.blue
*Sorry Rich, heats are jobsite talk for holes that will be used to run the hvac stuff. In most subs, we have to cut the heat holes. In others, the hvac guys cut them. Personally, I'd just as soon cut them myself because I avoid creating potential problems by using my carpenty superpowers as I whack em.blue
*Thanks.Rich Beckman
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Every time I get a new carpenter I seem to have a debate about how to do various things. They are so simple but I would like to have third party advice. When framing a two by four wall or two by six wall I dont take my square out when I cut the pieces. Instead I make a mark on the edge and use the front edge of the saw as a guide to make the cut square. I believe this is the fastest way to do it. Opinions? My carpenters insist on taking their squares out and marking the line then cutting to the line.
Installing wall sheathing. Doing a small job, I believe it is faster to put up full pieces of sheathing and covering openings and then come back and cut out the openings. Yes, there is more waste but the efficiency and the tight joints seem to make up for that. What do you think?
Any other framing efficiencies that you would like to debunk or add?
*Sorry, but I think you come across as a sloppy carpenter who doesn't care about good cuts only good enough cuts and because of your desire to get things done quickly,forgets things like plugs, recepticles and fixtures in the walls and ceilings.All because a square and a tape are a nuisance to your progress.BTW what was the real purpose of your post?Gabe
*Isn't it interesting that you would from my one post ascribe to me all of the foibles of a crack head carpenter. Bet you are a joy to be around. Have two "Efficient Carpenter" type books and one Video Series that uses the technique that I have mentioned. Larry Haun, the guru for Fine Home Building offers this technique. So.. before you get your underwear in a bundle and strangle yourself, check it out. "The Very Efficient Carpenter" Larry Haun Page 32 & "Rough Framing Carpentry" Mark Curry Page 37. Next time consider before you speak.
*I don't square framing cuts on a 2x4. I can eyeball it to be good enough for framing.I usually do use a square on 2x6's. Sometimes, I don't. Some people can cut a square line and some can't. Sometimes I can.I usually do window and door cut outs on sawhorses. I however, do think it's alot faster to sheath everything and would do this if I had a good way to make the cut outs later.
*I never used a router much, had a grand total of 2 round over bits for it. But a few years back I was watching a couple very good framers by my brothers place in Vancouver and saw them cutting out door and window openings on the deck with a flush cut router bit. Slickest thing I ever saw, got me one. Not only do you only have to mark your openings well enough to punch a hole somewhere in it, it gives you the most perfect professional looking cuts around your openings imaginable. Works on standing walls too but if someone has figured out how to do that without eating a ton of sawdust I'd like to here about it.JonC
*First of all, I indicated how YOU came across, I didn't write your post.Second of all, I don't have problems or complaints from anyone not wanting to work around me. Actually it's the opposite, when one of the boys gets himself into a bind, they're damn glad to have me around to help.Third of all, good thing you learned your trade from 2 "Efficent Carpenter" type books and 1 Video Series.Fourth of all, don't know Larry Haun and never saw him swing a hammer, so I can't comment on his abilities.Now how about the question I asked, WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF YOUR POST?Gabe
*If I ever see one of our carpenters cutting even a 2x4 with out using the aid of a square.......he won't be on our crew long. I don't care if they mark the line with the square and then cut free-hand or use a square as a saw guide. (I prefer they use the square as a guide, truth be known).No disrespect to Mr. Haun. Everyone here seems to think he's some kind of God or something.We cut the openings out after sheathing. It's very easy that way. When I order plywood sheathing for a wall with two small window's, I don't take the square footage out of the order for two windows. I buy enough to cover the whole wall. You can spend a lot of time mapping out a window on a piece of plywood only to find that you forgot to burn an inch or something, and it's wrong. If the sheets on the wall, there no chance of cutting it wrong on the ground.Ed. Williams
*Peter,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*NEED HELP! TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO FRAME A RADIUS ARCH INTO A HIP TRAY CEILING. JUST CAN'T SEEM TO FIGURE IT OUT. IF ANYONE COULD HELP, IT WOULD BE APPRECIATED.
*Joe, That was a good, succinct post; well put. Now, I'm going to get a bit for my router and leave the sawzall in the case. Sam
*Personally I think Larry Haun gives out good advice for a pro-framer, that could really screw up a semi-novice. I've had the chance to skim thru his books, and watch a video. If someone wants to square a line, why argue? Com'mon, how much time does it burn? And advice such as ripping lumber down your leg instead of using horses is gonna help a few guys walk with a limp. Then again, I do remodeling, not production framing, so speed isn't a great concern of mine. I worry more about quaility , since I'm am the next guy I'd be screwing up if I did it just good enough, but damn fast. I say do what's comfortable, just get it done. Jeff
*Peter, First off, Larry Haun doesn't know everything. What he does probably works for him. If he can make a square cut with out a square, more power to him. If I can't, I will instead use a square and a line. Either way the end result is a good cut. The same should go for your employees. Let them know that sloppy cuts won't be tolerated. Leave the rest up to their discretion. Micro-management usually defeats the purpose of hiring skilled employees. The results are important. Jon Blakemore
*Start sheathing with a factory edge at your window openings. The other edge will be off stud layout. The next sheet goes down on layout. This means that the factory edge of the second sheet, that is closest to the window, is the guide to cut the first sheet on a stud layout. You can just drop full sheets like this way all down the wall, with the overlapping edges that occur making your rip guides. This also means that my windows and doors are almost done, as soon as I drop a sheet. I can't with words impress on you how fast this is. I could sheet a wall maybe twice as fast as all you tape measurin' router using' chalk line fillin' dudes. No offense intended. Its just that your hands are never on the same thing for very long. Always grabbing a new gizmo. Just hold on to the saw, open your eyes, and then cut. It's a wonder what you'll do to get production oriented, when you get paid for the amount of production.Try to let the material tell you something, and leave the tape, the square and the pencil in the bags as much as possible. I guess framing one house at a time never allows you to do the same thing long enough to begin to break through the barriers.
*I try to avoid paying people piece rate so they will slow down a little on my stuff. Found that stategy to be very effective on me in my youth. Gets you a better job and fewer injuries. Yeah, I know, piece rate in the tracts the only way to increase your hourly wage is to produce faster. Too old for that crap. Young enough to find honest work if I cant do this well on my own terms. Had a job when I found this one.JonC
*You can get a motivated person to learn quality, but can you get a quality person motivated? What I mean is, get a guy in tune with the need for speed, and then teach him craft. If craft first, he'll never see the need, the need for speed
*Motivated to do what? Push harder on a string? Take a few more risks? Run harder and faster? I'll pass. Incidentally, when I lay out my wall framing I never change centers around doors or windows to save a few studs. Start at the right end of a wall I've laid out and you can count on finding a stud or cripple every 16".Not worried about using a few more studs than I had to or thermal transfer, JonC
*I do remodeling now, and framed for ten years before that. Production was and is always important, you do what works best for you. But I have a problem with bean counter types who start shaving seconds off things and tell me that after cutting 1000 studs on a job I could have saved 2000 seconds, (or 30 minutes) if I hadn't used a speed square to mark a line. Yeah, there are times I don't use one, but when quality suffers because of "speed and efficiency" I don't buy it. Speed is often equated with efficient, but they are not the same thing. Sloppy technique leads to sloppy work, and if you do finish work, who wants to follow the framer who doesn't have his window framing alligned, because he didn't have time to get everything in the same plane? And that 30 minutes you saved gets eaten up setting windows too, because you have sills that aren't perfect, because the cripples aren't the same length. Why anyone would want to require and encourage methods that can only decrease quality, and save so little is beyond me.
*I used to think layout was supposed to go like that. Then I met a guy who taught me to only put the material where it needed to be. Granted, we built expensive condos, but we must've saved our clients thousands of studs over the five years I worked for him. The lack of a stud up close to the partition decreases the chance of planing and butt-stripping. Makes insulating easier. Gives room to frame the channels, and face nail the headers into king studs. Saves the electricians and plumbers drill time. I could go on if I thought about it...We could go on and on. We are both too old to run like dogs. But the 20 year old isn't, so if I have to break sweat to show him what I expect, I'll do it for sure. If he still wants to hang, he might just be serious enough to want to learn something. Stud every 16 or not. I'm sure you're stuff looks good up close. NatePS speed, efficiency and quality can go together. Its a battle, and takes focus and effort to bring them all together.
*Steve, I can show you a jig that could cut hours, cause your tape, square and pencil would come out of the bags i onetime. :^)
*Nathan, I ain't proud. Let's see it!
*nathan,I gotta go with Jon C on this one. It's more important to maintain stud interval than to save cheap framing lumber. What time do you save? It gets screwed up later when adding trim. Ask a trim guy, they want the studs regularly centered.Besides, I don't see what window layout has to do with sheathing a wall, how can you expect window fenestration to end up on 48" or 96" centers? But if the wall is laid out on this, you just keep sheathing, don't have to worry about whether the edges fall on a stud, same goes for drywall.
*Nathan-I don't know that I agree with you on this. I started under one of the best craftsmen I know. He taught me how to do it right, then how to work faster. When you are doing a bid job, which almost always is the case, The faster it's done the more you make per unit of your time. Equally important, is that the customer thinks the job is excellent for the money, and that you are proud to have you name associated with the work. This has never let me down.