Casement Window vs. Double Hung Window
Hey all,
I am about to rehab an older home in the midwest. The place has ancient single hung wood frame, old, tired, inefficient, beat-up single glaze windows; and the customer wants them replaced. OK, no sweat. My question is, do I need to replace some of these front windows with casement windows? There are 4 (+/- 29w x 54h) windows across the front of the house and 2 smaller “squareish” ones on either side, higher off of ground elevation. Installation is not a problem one vs another, but the casements are a bit pricier. Customer doesn’t know enough about this issue to care one way or another, just the price point. I want to do what is right by them for their safety and to meet current industry standards. I am being pushed to get this bid done, and am considering hiring this out to one of the “window guys”. Still I feel responsible to steer the customer in the “right way”. I am looking to you guys with a lot more experience than I have for some direction in this. Can you help?
Thanks,
Tom
Replies
>> am about to rehab an older home in the midwest
There in may lay your answer.
Will casement windows look right with the style of the home?
I have always thought that casement windows seal tighter than double hung, but that may be just me. Modern dh windows, of the premium variety, are very good, so I may be splitting hairs.
>>I want to do what is right by them for their safety and to meet current industry standards.
As far as egress. Casements have a smaller net opening area than the same size dh in the same rough opening. To be egress windows there are a couple of criteria that must be met. One being the free net opening size and the other being height above the finish floor. There are other requirements sure, but I don't have my IRC book with me to look them up for you.
BTW in most places you do not need to bring the windows up to current code standards unless this is part of major renovation that involves structural changes. However you need to check with your ahj to be sure.
"Casements have a smaller net opening area than the same size dh in the same rough opening. "
Exactly the opposite! While the net width may be larger, the net opening size is nearly double. So for egress purposes the 24" height requirement and 5.7 SF total area usually implies a large double-hung window (see window manuf. charts for egress compliance) but a casement can much more easily achieve this requirement, if the state/local codes require compliance upon window replacement.
From an energy standpoint casements are somewhat better, but not usually enough to warrant replacement over double-hungs if the style of the window is important to the style of the house.
Now what often happens today is that in a condition where compliance with the egress section of the code is required, the other requirements (sill height between 24" and 44" A.F.F. ) and an existing low ceiling height (like 7'-0") make it impossible to install a compliant DH window - specifically a large-enough window to fit between the 24" min. sill height (Here in NJ anyway) and the 84" ceiling height.
In such cases, if a double-hung is the appropriate look, Marvin windows makes a casement window (Wood Ultimate Casement window) with an available false check rail dividing the upper and lower portions of the window - this can be combined with muntins too (best is simulated divided lite with spacer bar) so you could simulate, say a six-over-one double-hung in a unit that opens as a casement (for egress). The window is, however, all in one plane and therefore looks like a double-hung only from, say, 25 feet away and up ;o)Jeff
Edited 8/4/2009 7:41 am ET by Jeff_Clarke
Hey Jeff,
Thanks. I was told that the deal with with the 5.7 sf opening is so that a fireman can enter the window opening wearing turn-out gear and oxygen bottle can pass through the opening unencumbered. Cant see that happening through a dh unless it is gigantic.
Tom
Only has to be 24" clear height -
Jeff
Jeff,
My existing window rough openings are 29", so to get 5.7sf, they will have to provide a little over 30" vertical opening as well, (the actual hole of the opening). my ro is 29w X 57h so in reality, without reconfiguring the wall, a casement is the only way to get it. Around here, I'm finding that the supplier's want anothr hundred bucks for each one. gripe gripe.
Tom
$100 premium casement over DH? Not bad IMO.
Thanks for taking the time to post. As for asthetics, I would just as soon set all as DH windows. Here in St. Louis, the codes require at least 1 casement in the bedroom. You are probably right about egress as opposed to ingress. The window has to have hardware that will allow the window to open without cranking the handle, just a good shove and the window is open, if it is not locked.
Hopefully, the customer will accept my bid and I can get back to work.
In Jesus' name
Tom
They are not ingress or egress windows.The are emergency escape and rescue openings..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Tyipcal double hung 5.7 sq. ft. openings are a 3'4" x 5'6" DH window. At max. opening, the DH results in the min., or close enough to it to get by. But THAT 3456 window is HUGE brother! Try laying those out in elevation and they begin to take over.
As mentioned, the egress min. casements are much smaller and probably more versatile if there are constraints."It depends on the situation..."
Depends, of course, on what you mean by "casement". If it's a single casement sash filling the whole opening, AND the mechanism is "egress friendly", then the casement will have a larger clear opening. The more common (around here, at least) casement has two sashes, the top one fixed, and provides, at best, no more egress area than a DH.It should be noted that there are some DH units available that allow the entire sash/slide assembly to tilt out, making them very "egress friendly". (No doubt these are more expensive, but they may be the best "value" under the circumstances.)
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Tilt-out yes (like the European style) - but that won't GET you out.
Haven't seen a DH where both sashes opened together as a unit - I would be VERY interested in hearing more about that - if made.
Best option is still the false-check-rail casement -
Jeff
I've seen them (at a home show, I think), though not recently. The entire sash/jamb assembly is hinged at the top, basically a DH set inside a casement, but the casement feature is invisible, and the visible jamb thickness isn't much more than a standard DH.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
"The more common (around here, at least) casement has two sashes, the top one fixed, and provides, at best, no more egress area than a DH."I have never seen a casement with a fixed section over an operable. That would be a very large window.Or do you mean side by side?While not common there are "french" casement windows where you can open both sides and have clear space..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I mean an "awning" window -- bottom-opening casement.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Awning windows are top hinged operable. Casement are side hinged. Hopper style (very uncommon) is bottom hinged opening in or out. I believe those are the common terms used in the industry.
Egress .... getting out ... not getting in. Fireman simply takes his axe and makes the opening what it needs to be. 2nd part of egress window ... paraphrased 'able to be opened w/out special tools or knowledge'. It's egress not ingress. Able to be stepped through by my ample wife ... She's not big ... she's large. :)
You heard wrong. The code protects the occupants and accomodates thier needs primarily.
Edited 8/6/2009 12:37 am ET by Clewless1
Well they maybe called "egress" windows.But that is not what the code requires."EMERGENCY ESCAPE AND RESCUE OPENINGS: SECTION: R 310.1
Habitable space and every sleeping room shall have at least one openable emergency escape and rescue window or exterior door opening functioning as an operable emergency escape and RESCUE opening. Where openings are provided as a means of escape and RESCURE, each shall have a sill height of not more than 44 inches above the floor. Where a door opening having a threshold below the adjacent ground elevation serves as an emergency escape and rescue opening and is provided with a bulkhead enclosure, the bulkhead enclosure shall comply with Section R310.3. The net clear opening dimensions required by this section shall be obtained by the normal operation of the window or door opening from the inside. Escape and RESCUE window openings with a finished sill height below the adjacent ground elevation shall be provided with a window well in accordance with Section R310.2.MINIMUM OPENING AREA: SECTION: R 310.1.1
All emergency escape and RESCUE openings shall have a minimum net clear opening of 5.7 square feet (0.530 m2). For example, 820.8 square inches, or at the minimum, 20" wide by 41.1" high, or 34.2" tall by 24" high. "RESCUE - means an other person, often a fireman, helping the resident out..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Our local code overrides the 5.7 sqft requirement, says only 5.0 sqft is enough. The OP may find that his local requirement also is different.On browsing the Loewen window catalog showing endless pages of window configurations and sizes, their color codes indicate which sizes meet US and Canadian size requirements for the purpose. Other vendors' catalogs may show the same.
You must have smaller occupants in your area. :)
Doesn't require as much egress area.
I went back to the town's site and looked at that section again. It does call for the normal 5.7 sqft net clear opening, but then it lists as an exception floors at grade, where 5.0 sqft is adequate. No reason is given.
The 5.0 SF exception is consistent with the IRC 2006.
Jeff
I don't know, but I suspect that with upper story windows you might have the end of the ladder sticking into the window opening a little..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I can make a pretty large opening in a window with a ladder when I'm trying not to. I think if I were really trying to make a large opening with the ladder I could do a pretty good job at it. I bet the firemen can do the smae or better.
What, you want codes to have reason? My guess is one would rather have more sqft to manuever out when you are high off the ground than at grade. Maybe they assume the end of a ladder in the opening? Who knows. Somehow there was some logic to it, I'm sure (or fairly sure).
Maybe they figure that fatter people live on the upper floors.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
They aren't FAT ... they are LARGE. ;)
Wow.
I thought I could get some help on this subject, and you guys came through again. When I speak to my customers (or potential customers) often the information I have for them comes from either this magazine, or this forum. At one company, my foreman tried to ridicule the information I got from "some stupid magazine" until the company's owner did his own research. In the end, they could not dispute the information gathered from this nationwide discussion of professionals. When you do this stuff day in and day out, you learn what works and what doesn't. When we share with one another, we all benefit.
Thanks all,
Tom
So, maybe I stand corrected. Older codes never used "escape" or "rescue". They always simply said egress, I believe. So I assume your quote is from the IRC? You didn't mention the source other than 'a code'.
The PRIMARY purpose intended, though is clear in my opinion ... escape ... as many of the requirements relate to a person on the inside, not a person on the outside in a rescue mode. The window has no requirements for the rescue person, really. it is for the quick egress or escape of the occupant to safety. Height above floor. Operable from the inside, etc.
Your points are well taken ... adds breadth to the discussion.
I am confused: , 20" wide by 41.1" high, or 34.2" tall by 24" high.
Tall and High??
It is apparently from some version of the IRC. I find it quoted in an other source.tall and high - it seems to be a typo. That was part of the quote.
.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Dave,
Thanks for taking time to reply. I know that the casements definitely standout in a group of dh windows, but late at night ahj won't answer the phone. ahj insists on them in customers bedroom. Spoke to them this am, and their rep was pretty cut-and-dried about it. I wasn't sure and am pushing to build a comprehensive bid for a whole home remodel. I am in umfamiliar waters and do not want to get cornered and have to take the tiny bit of profit i get from this and replace a couple of brand new dh windows with casements. (Can't eat those) I will look at some muntin asemblies, and see if I can't get something to disguise these windows and make "fake" dh windows out of them.
Thanks again
Tom
I'd have a tendency to disagree re: the egress. I think the casement will provide LOTS more net free area ... if you get an egress casement, anyway. DH you only have max half the window opening. Casement you have all but maybe 2-3" of the opening. I guess it does depend on the type of casement ordered.
Casements can 'catch' a cross wind better for ventilation. DH will do fine for 'head on' wind direction. Casements open out into potentially an area you may not want (e.g a walkway). Double hung (true double hung) let air in bottom and out the top.
Choose based on aethetics and prevailing wind (which may vary on different sides of the house; I put single hung that are direct into the wind; casements on walls parallel w/ the wind.
Looks like the egress issue is covered by mine and other posts.
Older houses look silly with modern casement windows..
Frenchy - I totally agree with you.
However, codes put us between rock and a hard place.
You can barely make an egress DH fit between the (new) minimum sill height of 24" and an 8' ceiling height.
The simulated check rail casement -
http://www.marvin.com/?page=press_release&pressid=233
View Image
takes care of this and looks like a DH window from 20' away and up
Jeff
Edited 8/8/2009 1:29 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke