Hey Guys,
I’m probably just venting here, but I spent all day trimming out one 3×5 window today! It’s a 1920s bunglow rehab that I’m doing, and its hardly a perfectly square/even place, but I had installed a new window in an old framed wall overwhich I hung new sheetrock. I got really frusatrated at how much material I wasted trying to get my corner miters to look perfect! I’d get one side, and then the other corner would be out! It was just fairly simple moulded casing too! I really felt like a rookie today. I even did a slight back bevel on my 45s to compensate for the variation between the sheetrock and the jamb extensions. Any of you veterans ever feel this way? Any suggestions?
Thanks guys!
Replies
Do I ever feel that way. Only once a day. ;-)
For the window trim, if you want it really "perfect" (stain grade -- painters won't "fix" it type perfect) on an old house, try this. Mark your reveals. Measure the angles at the corners with a protractor and write them on a piece of paper or on the wall behind where the casing will go. Measure the distance between the reveal marks or just mark the piece in place.
Write the angles on the back of the casing so you can't get them mixed up (no matter how many times I do this, they get mixed up on at least one piece -- write it on the back of casing). Set the mitre saw to 1/2 the angle needed and shave right to the mark. Lather, rinse, repeat for all the pieces.
Make the rock and jamb flush. Either block plane the jamb or bash the rock depending on which one sticks into the room more.
Nail up casing -- perfect.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Do as mentioned in the last response with measuring the angles.
Nail up the side pieces and cut the top and bottom a good 1/8" or more long.
Set top or bottom in place and see if angles match, if not you should have the extra length necesary to recut to fit.
Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
For a 1920's bungelow, next time try Arts & Crafts trim. The bead molding above the jamb casing provides a forgiving shadow line and fitting butt joints is easier than miters.
We just did one like you describe last week...nothing lined up, or square. This trim let us get away with more. We were also able to pocket-hole screw the entire assemblies together and install the trim as a unit. 1x trim has some benefits.
Gee, thanks... I opened that picture up just as my wife walked by.
"I like that. When you redo the windows, can you do THAT around the openings?"
Daughter then looks at it and says. "mommy, Daddy can do them like that in CHERRY, wouldn't THAT look nice?"
That sure made my life easier. Now I don't have to to think about how I'll do it, Now I know how I will do it. Made my next month easier...
By the way, it's going to be paint grade $$$ I ain't using all of my premium, all heart, hand selected cherry for some jambs/casings that I can never take with me. Replacement cost is around $10bdft if I can even find it.
Don't need to have knives ground for the W/H molder either
I trimmed several windows in Arts & Crafts style last week too. I'll see if I can get by there to take some photos of the sill & apron details, etc. I'll post again next week on this thread.I enjoy doing work in that style.
I don't know how much of this you do, but for between $40 - 150.00 you can get an angle divider that automatically tells you the angle and the miter angles. I do quite a bit and this tool (available at places like Rockler) has paid for itself over and over again. It's also good for siding and stair treads, and a whole lot more. I have felt your pain
I love that tool. Bought it at rockler myself. Works great for all trim that you can't afford to waste (especialy kitchen trim).
U can do it even cheaper than that.
but the cheap yellow plastic angle finder from sears for $5 ... the one where the adjustment nut always falls off and gets lost ...
or ... hold the trim and mark it. legs and top ... mark the bi-section ...
set the old T bevel ... use that to lay a mark on some scrap wood ...
and out comes the speed square to read the exact angle.
takes all of 3 seconds.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I have three of the wing nut type angle indicators, one is an antigue my dad owned. But the more expensive ones are direct read, they'll read 47.25 degrees, so I don't have to spend time with my pencil figuring. I can get more done per hour with less waste so make more money and have more time to read breaktime.
>>"But the more expensive ones are direct read
Where did you get it and how hard is it to read the scale?
I have a Starrett (the older model with the wide legs) and even with the big scale, I'm getting to the point where I need a magnifying glass to read it.
Those yellow plastic ones some guys mention (they must be youn'uns with sharp eyesight), put that away long ago. Need binoculars to read the scale. Makes me dizzy even thinking about it. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
The starrett is fine for most work, The Bosch is definitely over the top, and one fantastic piece of gadgetry But at 60 I can almost read it w/o my glasses. If you're serious about turning out miters on the first try you need this - well, that's what I tell my wife.http://www.Rockler.com part#21388 Starrett Protractor Angle Finder $59.99 eachAmazon.com Bosch DWM40L Miter Finder Digital Protractor/Angle finder List $206, now 110.00 Product Description
Amazon.com Review
Bosch has really broken ahead of the pack with their new miter finder/digital protractor/angle finder. The handiest thing, in our opinion, you can do with this tool is calculate miter and bevel angles for crown molding cuts easily and efficiently--using the molding spring angle and the corner angle as your input. It's also great for remodelers who often need to cut trim at odd angles to achieve a good fit. The tool's digital display is large and easy to read, and there's also a hold function that freezes the measurement. The finder also has an old-school leveler, so you know you're operating in pure horizontal reality. Plus, it fits lightly in your hand. Really, this is a very cool and unique tool, one we think finish carpenters and remodelers will find invaluable in their quest for quick, perfect fits. --Michael ShillingFrom the Manufacturer
The Miter Finder digital protractor/angle finder is a one-of-a-kind product that measures angles accurately and quickly. Its onboard electronic brain makes it the perfect complement to a compound miter saw. With the simple push of a button, the Miter Finder calculates exact miter and bevel angles for crown molding cuts, using the molding spring angle and the corner angle as input. It's ideal for performing the following calculations: compound crown molding cuts, measuring exact trim cuts for remodeling, checking and transferring angles for remodeling, cabinet installation, counter installation, measuring roof angles, fitting up windows or doors, aligning wood forms for concrete pouring, fitting up of carpeting and parquet or tile floors, aligning and checking of banisters and rails, checking for correct fit-up to any angled surface, and much more. It features digital readout on both the front and back, and has a hold function to freeze the measurements.
>>"If you're serious about turning out miters on the first try you need this - well, that's what I tell my wife.
LOL!
Thanks. I'll have to find a project around the house so my better half will be OK with my getting one. She doesn't fuss at all if I spend for tools to work on our place. ;-)
It's getting to the point working on the old houses around here that I need to dial in the outside corner angle and the sag in the floor/ceiling to get a good fit on outside corners. Gets to be a pain when I can barely read those teensy lines.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Come on, Jeff. Help a guy out.
I have no problem with cheap.
But I gotta have some kind of excuse to buy tools, like the Starret angle finder. ( which works great, by the way)
I hope my wife doesn't start reading BT.
I'll have to start begging for tool money.
ok ...
then a nice shiney new bevel gauge ...
and a bevel board for the old eyes!View Image
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Edited 4/28/2006 11:42 pm ET by JeffBuck
A tool I don't have!!
Where'd you get it?
just googled.
try "bevel board" ... that might do the trick.
I think they're an old boat building tool ... U can take the time and make a nice custom deal with some scrap and carefully marking the angles ... I've seen "store bought" wood, metal and plastic ones.
bet there's even nice antiques floating around ebay from time to time.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Same thing but skip one step- put that speed sq on the CSMS and then put the bevel sq on the 45 edge of the spd sq. then slide table to line up with the bevel sq. Now read the angle. I don't try and use the blade, I use the insert line to parallel the bevel sq.
We usually trim bottom, sides then the top. Fit the firs two(lower) corners, then cut your top oversized. Fit one end of the top, then while still cutting over size by an inch or so fit the other corner. Once the second (top) corner is perfect, cut to length from the second end with out changing you saw settings.
When using thinner mouldings I find it can be helpful to cheat the back cut/compound angle by using shims on the saw table rather than swinging the head of the saw around a lot.
As an example, if the drywall/plaster is proud of the extension jamb by 1/16", I slip a 1/16" shim under the back edge of the cut on both sides as I make the cut.
I hope this helps,
Garett
Thanks guys, appreciate all the advice, and now I don't feel so "new". =)
Thanks!
All day?
I had an absolutely crazy casing job once. It was a heavy profiled custom trim 2½" wide that was very thick (over 1") on the wall side and ¼" thick on the window side. I was installing it over vinyl jambs which were proud of the drywall in most places.
It was taking me forever to get the miters to fit tight.
An old Italian guy named Victor who was building the maple cabinets and sets of arched bookcases (that would make you drool) came over and gave me the best advice.
"You can make it perfect but you won't make any money. Do it good and go on to the next one."
Gord
kidbuilder: You can measure till your blue in the face on some molding jobs. If you miter two sides either top and bottom or left and right side first at 45 degrees and then instead of cutting just another 45; scribe the next cuts you will cut just what is needed to make the joints align. When i say (scribe) I mean tack the two 45's in place then hold the next piece of molding (not yet cut) with the reveal where you want it and then draw a line on the molding where it will line up with the other 45, you will then have to adjust the saw to line up with your scribe line. When it comes to molding, whether it's crown, base, or whatever I never use a tape measure or assume any particular degree because no house anywhere is perfectly square and plumb, I always scribe every piece. GOOD LUCK
So let's say it turns out that the second piece needs a 44° angle. That makes the hypotenuse (the cut side) on this piece shorther than the hypotenuse on the 45° angle. This means the long points don't line up. How do you deal with this?
-Don
>>"That makes the hypotenuse (the cut side) on this piece shorther
Don't want to put words in the guy's mouth but I'm pretty sure I know what he is talking about.
For a small difference in angle, the hypotenuse on a piece of casing is "close enough." I don't do it the way he describes as a matter of course, but have run into situations where somehow the guy measuring the angles (that would be me) screwed up and if the jamb is very close to a 45, you can cheat the angle on the second piece a little. If the profile of the casing isn't very detailed, you'd never see it. If it is, well . . . use the piece cut to the wrong angle somewhere else. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
<So let's say it turns out that the second piece needs a 44° angle. That makes the hypotenuse (the cut side) on this piece shorther than the hypotenuse on the 45° angle. This means the long points don't line up. How do you deal with this?>
Good point. that's the first thing I think of when considering different angles than 45. The difference has to give somewhere on an out of square piece. I usually divide it between the reveal and the miter angle...usually I try and make it all in the reveal. Making a miter other than a 45 can launch one into the neather world of trim carpentry, don't get me wrong, you have to learn how but it may take a while.
Find the angle first, whether it be 88 or 92 degree, whatever, always find that first, then bisect it to find your miter cut. I first learned to never trust the transfer of numbers when bisecting angles, but instead would copy the angle on the piece with a bevel set, transfer it to a flat piece of scrap, and then bisect it with a a scribe like you learned how to in jr high geometry class. It's perfect every time. I did that for 25 or so years and got pretty fast with it. Then 2 years ago I bought the Starrett and have pretty much switched over to using that. Hard to read though for us older farts.
I don't like to back bevel trim as it will change the reveal in any of the detail. Keep a razor sharp block plane handy to tweek all miter and endgrain cuts.
This type of stuff is hard to put into words because there are always a million little tips and techniques that are better learned while watching.
Is this the Starrett angle gauge you use?
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I cut that pic from the Lee Valley site, where they also sell this for only $14.95, if my memory serves me correctly. As you can see in the pic, the "rudder" moves with a gearset to be half of the measured angle, and then the gage is used to set the chopsaw's miter blade right to the rudder, for a cut at exactly half the measured angle. No reading small numbers!
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Edited 4/29/2006 1:28 pm ET by Gene_Davis
Edited 4/29/2006 1:30 pm ET by Gene_Davis
Edited 4/29/2006 1:32 pm ET by Gene_Davis
That's the one. Interesting that other one there...
I'm tempted by the Bosch, but I have a feeling it would be another cool tool that would soon be collecting dust.
You could always use an angle bisector or "EeeZee Miter". Makes your life much easier and no need to transfer measurements which is always a great source of errors.
http://www.signsanddesigns.ca/miter.html
Mark the reveals. I tack up a piece with a 45-degree miter and cut and fit a scrap tail peice into it. Then I cut that angle on the left side of the head to a 45 miter on the right side, and repeat the process. If the angles are too far off that they are noticable of if its a stain grade application. I use casing tails set on the reveal line to trial and error the miter er as you said compound miter. I always work left to right and Grand Funk is preferable to Led Zepplin for soothing the beastly mind.
Here is another trim style that looks nice in older homes that is miter-free. I had to fit literally dozens of miters this past week--so when an old house invites me to skip the miters--I oblige.